Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

andres3 · December 2012

That was a rental car, outside of my home State, and to a particularly egregious offender of the law.

fintail · December 2012

Is there a limit, like how many flashes can be used before some arbitrary "aggressive" figure is reached? I don't expect most revenue officers to look at context.

jjackson12 · December 2012

The Honda's tires were fine, he was going too fast.

I walked back to the scene and talked with the cop that responded. The Honda got the ticket. The Honda also had the most damage, scraping the entire left side as it slid past the Explorer.

Technically the Explorer broke no law, but it's still a "pretty stupid place to park." The correct answer to today's quiz is #3.

So who was inconsiderate?
1) Honda
2) Explorer
3) Both were inconsiderate
4) Neither, it was just an accident
5) People shouldn't live in Michigan

hammerhead · December 2012

The where and the wheels are irrelevant. It's the who and the what that speak volumes, and now (again) come the justifications.

andres3 · December 2012

Justifications are valid, as the flashing stops once you get out of the way.

Simple, 2 plus 2 = 4.

backy · December 2012

Why not just flash your lights well ahead of time so that they have time to terminate their LLCing ways, and move right before you have to brake to ruin your fuel economy?

You must have a special high-beam control on your car, which controls the accelerator and steering wheel of the car in front of you. Alas, the rental car I was driving on I-10 didn't have that feature.

There's also the little problem of knowing who the LLCer is. Is it the car directly ahead of me? In most cases last week, it wasn't. They were the victim of an LLCer ahead of them. So should I flash my lights at someone just because they are stuck behind an LLCer? I don't think that's very considerate.

When the speed limit is 75 and the LLCer is going ~60, it's pretty hard to not slow down for them, or the vehicles stacked up behind them.

andres3 · December 2012

So should I flash my lights at someone just because they are stuck behind an LLCer? I don't think that's very considerate.

They may be the victim of the LLCer in front of them, but a quick flash will tell them to flash the car ahead of them and on and on. It's a signal.

backy · December 2012

A really obnoxious "signal", IMO, to someone who's as stuck behind an LLCer as I am. I'll wager most drivers do not consider having high beams flashed at them to be a friendly gesture.

Someday if you're unlucky you'll run into someone who's packing (as many drivers in TX do, btw) and doesn't look kindly on having lights flashed at them... especially dozens of times as you have been known to do... and especially if they are guilty of nothing more than being stuck behind an LLCer. I've heard of guns being fired for much less provocation. There's a lot of crazy people out there... for example (note, in CA):

http://www.fugitive.com/2012/03/19/san-mateo-driver-flashes-gun-in-road-rage-ove- r-high-beams/

gogogodzilla · December 2012

I had to take my car in for some minor exterior work (ie: the metal piping at the bottom of one of my side windows fell off and needed to be reattached)...

...and so, afterwards, I took a drive out in the Appalachian mountains of western Maryland. Had some decent fun out by Camp David/Catoctin National Park.

It would have been more fun, but for two very slow drivers on the road. One was understandable, as it was an old pickup... and the road was a very twisty mountain road. But the other was a Subaru WRX STi, which I ended up eventually passing, in a 2012 Ford Focus (new model style).

Think about that. I passed a WRX STi. In a Focus... WRX STi's are *MADE* to carve up the mountain roads (and to rally race, too). He was going 30mph, which was slower than the posted limit of 35mph. (I tend to drive SR77 at around 50mph, which... for the most part, isn't pushing the limits, but is just around 70% of the limits of my car.)

Of course, on the way out and back on I-70, I had about 6 instances of LLCers driving significantly slower than the posted 65mph speed limit (ie: 50 or slower). Fortunately, the road was pretty empty, so it really didn't matter to me, as I was in the slow lane just going the speed limit; which meant I flew past the LLCers like they were standing still. But honestly, who in their right mind drives that slowly in the passing lane?!?

And I saw that twice on MD-32, and once more on MD-175. In fact, the one on MD-175 was merging from I-95 and ended up driving at 20mph in the passing lane. (And then turned into the wrong side of traffic when he/she/it tried to turn off onto a side street.)

Also today, I saw a blue Chrysler minivan that thought it'd be an absolutely brilliant idea to simply stop in the middle of a street so the driver could answer a phone call. And what was more amazing was that the cars in between myself and the minivan... let the driver do it. After I get up to the stoppage (3 back), I lay on the horn... and the minivan takes off like a bat outta hell.

So why the @#%$ did all the other drivers just let the @ss do such a stupid thing?

I'm really fed up with how there are so many sheep on the road today. Drivers that just do what the car in front of them are doing, with no other thought in their head. If the road is blocked by an @ss of a driver stopped for a phone call, *HONK*!!!! Don't just sit there at their beck and call!

---

Still, this *WAS* a halfway decent day of driving around here. I mean, I was actually moving on the roads!

imidazol97 · January 2013

>I'll wager most drivers do not consider having high beams flashed at them to be a friendly gesture.

Recalling some other posters sayings here:

As I've said before, people need to learn to share the road rather than trying to make it a testosterone contest like some couch potatoes like to do about football played on a field by people in good physical shape--the couch potato being just that.

If you read between the lines, in many cases described here, the LLD is attempting to dominate someone else and to control how they do things. I believe one person said that you have a switch in your car that controls the steering and gas pedal of the car ahead of you. Domination. Testosterone.

I recall someone saying that people "must keep right" as slower traffic. Control. War. Football.

Why not just enjoy the drive rather than worry about the roadability of the car ahead of you on a winding road--it pro babably will be healthier for your heart and arteries. Just because the car can supposedly do curves at a higher speed than a Corvette, perhaps the driver chooses not to drive like a combatant in a speed war. Just because a car can go 120 on an expressway does not mandate the car being driven thus at all times.

Again, what is the problem with sharing the road and being courteous. Violating several laws while pointing out that someone is inconveniencing you because they are not driving as fast as you think they should drive or where you think they should drive seems to point more to the LLD than the person they are criticizing.

backy · January 2013

I was the person who jokingly said that my car doesn't have a feature where flashing the high beams controls the accelerator and steering wheel of the car in front of them, i.e., just because you flash your high beams at someone, doesn't mean they'll move over.

I also have advocated that slower traffic needs to stay in the right lane. I don't see that as being a "controlling" thought at all. It's just common courtesy.

Sharing the road with courtesy is what it's all about. But there are many drivers out there for whom that is a foreign concept. And the discourtesy takes many forms... from tailgating to flashing high beams more than just once per car to LLCing to trying to ram another car vs. letting them merge etc. It's this discourtesy that makes it difficult to "just enjoy the drive" much of the time. Although overreaction to minor discourtesies can also make driving more stressful than it needs to be.

Kirstie_H · January 2013

Darn. I picked #5, and I'm still pretty sure I'm right.

imidazol97 · January 2013

>my car doesn't have a feature

I read it wrong. Sorry.

stickguy · January 2013

I assume that a lot of those real slow driving LLCs are just afraid to be on the road, and stay to the left so they don't have to interact with on/off ramps. Or ever change lanes, which can be terrifying for some people.

of course, these people should not be driving in the first place, and at minimum staying or local streets!

fintail · January 2013

Why does "sharing the road" always mean submitting to the slow and timid? Why can't the slow and timid "share the road" and keep right? Slower traffic keeps right, why is this such a problem? How can I drive in Europe for weeks and see virtually no real LLCs, then come home and see one in the first 10 minutes on the highway?

Way too much credential free pseudo-psychology there, too. No need to analyze the mentality of it, use that energy to simply hit the signal, move over, and if one must, move back when the faster car has passed.

Crying about a law while violating the law ones' self makes one no better than the speed demon they won't yield to - when the law says they MUST. Share the road and obey the law, yourself. Practice what you preach.

fintail · January 2013

I'd wager simply being scared is behind a lot of it. Around here, I see people brake for lane changes on wide open smooth flat empty interstates - because that change of direction indeed concerns the driver. Maybe there needs to be a license endorsement for interstate driving.

Probably the same people who slow to <5mph while turning.

fintail · January 2013

Of course, a slowpoke who is easily offended and packing heat can easily come up against a speeder who is also packing heat. Would you roll those dice? Especially in a place like Texas. Although I will say it is pretty stupid to flash a car if it is not the offender.

gogogodzilla · January 2013

Yep.

I'd say that's a fair assessment.

backy · January 2013

Of course, a slowpoke who is easily offended and packing heat can easily come up against a speeder who is also packing heat.

Yep. Just one more reason to drive courteously... it might save your life (in more ways than one).

hammerhead · January 2013

"Justification" of an inconsiderate act does not make it any less inconsiderate.
One (aka the LLC) does NOT have to beget another (aka the lights).
It's up to you. Drive like a jerk or not.

whahappan · January 2013

Flashing lights to pass isn't aggressive driving anywhere. It's merely alerting the driver ahead that a faster car is approaching.

imidazol97 · January 2013

>Flashing lights to pass isn't aggressive driving anywhere.

I don't think so.

It's aggressive driving.

If someone has time to flash their lights 200 times as mentioned, they have time to change lanes and pass. It's like someone honking their horn in a parking lot to let the other driver know they're on a collision course: just hit your own brakes and avoid the accident instead of honking for the other driver to take the preventative action.

>Flashing lights to pass isn't aggressive driving anywhere.

I recall years back when I-75 through Kentucky was primarily 2 lanes. At vacation time around holidays, people would expect to fly up the interstate in a high density of cars and expect the left lane to clear in front of them. Ain't gonna happen. The worst offenders were BMW drivers and folks from Canada using their bright lights to try to "make" everyone else get out of their lane. This is with traffic in the left lane typically going 65-70 in a 65 zone.

Just a little courtesy goes a long ways. If traffic moving in the left lane near the speed limit or above doesn't suit you, maybe you need to take the other roads to your destination or fly for distance travel.

whahappan · January 2013

I was talking about a quick flash to alert the driver ahead, not 200 flashes, or trying to clear the entire left lane in heavy traffic. Unfortunately, many will take the flash as a challenge, or a personal affront and try to impede you even more.

fintail · January 2013

Then why do cars have horns or lights with the ability to be flashed, at all? Sometimes the horn or lights are the only ways to wake up the inconsiderate. Flashing lights 200 times is indeed insane, but a flash to wake someone up, or a honk to do likewise or let someone know that they made a mistake, are not evil ideals.

Here's some psychobabble too. I notice most LLCs are henpecked middle aged and older men. I don't see many younger men doing it, and I don't see many women doing it. Maybe they don't have control of much in their lives, so they try to get some on the road, by violating the law and obstructing faster traffic? Makes sense to me.

Courtesy is a two way street. If the already underposted limits are too much for some to handle, they need to get their butts off the faster highways and stick to secondary roads. Slow traffic keep right. The limit is irrelevant - if you are going 63 in the left lane of a 65, with nobody beside you, and someone comes up at 70, move over and let them go past. Easy. Considerate. Courteous.

xrunner2 · January 2013

If you're in the left lane and a faster car is approaching, and there is nobody alongside you or immediately ahead of you, move over and let them by. Then get back in the lane.

Strongly agree. And, one should be well aware (mirrors) that someone faster is approaching in left lane and "plan" ahead of time to move over to right lane and don't hold them up. Just common courtesy on the road.

xwesx · January 2013

Hahaha. Nice! :P

imidazol97 · January 2013

>e's some psychobabble too.

Sounds like you labeled it.

>Courtesy is a two way street. If the already underposted limits

Have to agree about the driving courtesy. I've watched the LLDs battle for superiority on the battlefield they deem the highways to be. How about some of your psychobabble about what's going on in their heads when someone going 65 in a 65 zone on a two-lane interstate with traffic in both lanes is someone with whom they want to do battle? No football game on to watch and sublimate their need gratification?

fintail · January 2013

My psycho is no more babble than yours

I don't get very upset if someone comes up behind me and wants to pass, even if I am speeding and in the left lane, even if they get too close. I just move over when I can, and let them by - any conflict stops when he moves by, and I continue on my way. Changing lanes doesn't scare me, nor hurt me. If only others could do the same.

If someone is going 65 in a 65 and can't move over, then they aren't at fault. But if they can move over, they need to do so asap.

Why do some want to control others by holding up speeders? Failed dreams of being a LEO? All control in real life surrendered to others? Funny how this babbly analysis goes both ways, just as courtesy should go both ways.

andres3 · January 2013

I've heard of guns being fired for much less provocation. There's a lot of crazy people out there... for example (note, in CA):

First, I can only recall one incident where my lights got flashed more than 3 or 4 times.

Most people are not crazy, I'm not going to let a few bad apples in the population scare me out of doing the right thing for the many, just to compensate for the few.

Also, if you draw on me, prepare to be run over immediately, while you really have no good shot at a driver that's ducking....

Experience has taught me to never be caught at a dead stop next to a road rager anyway, the driver should have never stopped right behind the lunatic. I want to get away as far and as fast as possible from those road ragers, and flashing my lights is an attempt to do just that.

backy · January 2013

Also, if you draw on me, prepare to be run over immediately, while you really have no good shot at a driver that's ducking....

So let me get this straight... your plan is to drive towards the person with the gun... while you are ducking out of sight (meaning cannot see where you're going). Also you seem to think that bullets can't penetrate the firewall and dashboard of the car, to hit someone ducking behind them.

Seems like a great plan to me! Flash away!

p.s. Most people in my town are decent, law-abiding citizens who wouldn't think of entering my home and stealing my belongings, and maybe doing worse. But I lock the doors of my house anyway. Silly me.

andres3 · January 2013

It's aggressive driving.

Flashing lights is NOT aggressive driving, it is merely a courteous signal that you have failed to drive in a manner that isn't impeding traffic, a friendly reminder; fail to notice it, and you might get 2 or 3 slightly less friendly flashes, fail to notice that, and it'll get less friendlier still.

If someone has time to flash their lights 200 times as mentioned,

I'd be willing to wager the farm that 99.9% of people who are flashed are flashed less than 5 times the first time it happens. Therefore, the 200 argument is pointless.

Secondly, there was no time to change lanes and pass. The offending car decided to purposely drive at the exact same speed as the truck to it's right (on a 2 lane freeway). When that behavior was noticed, the next 195 of those 200 flashes ensued. Short of using the shoulder, had no option other than to continue flashing, tailgate, pit maneuver, shoot a weapon (wasn't packing though).

Finally, it was the truck on the right getting collateral light that slowed down and let me pass on the right in front of them (don't know why they couldn't just speed up though).

It's like someone honking their horn in a parking lot to let the other driver know they're on a collision course: just hit your own brakes and avoid the accident instead of honking for the other driver to take the preventative action.

In those situations, it could often be advisable to do both, honk and brake, as the collision course can still be completed despite your braking if they remain oblivious. Other times, you honk and speed up so as to avoid the impending collision, speed up to avoid, honk to let them know they made a mistake.

andres3 · January 2013

So let me get this straight... your plan is to drive towards the person with the gun... while you are ducking out of sight (meaning cannot see where you're going).

Well, depends on my current speed and range. But there are ways to duck that still allow you to see; your generally not dealing with an ace shooter I bet. A car is much bigger than a bullet, way easier to hit a body with.

Yes, a bullet can penetrate certain things, but chances are you'll miss. Do you really want a handgun vs. a car in an open field?

andres3 · January 2013

Although I will say it is pretty stupid to flash a car if it is not the offender.

I don't like to flash a non-offending vehicle, and pretty much never do. However, if after taking a minute of being slowed down and impeded, I will observe and assess the situation over that time frame, and if the LLC remains, with the enabler enabling them egregiously remains behind them doing nothing, I might find fault with the overly passive enabler for not enforcing the law of the land with some courteous signals (like a flash or two).

In that instance, I think a reminder that the guy in front of you needs to be flashed too is in order. I'm not talking about doing this after 5 or 15 seconds, but more like a minute of enabling.

I

andres3 · January 2013

while pointing out that someone is inconveniencing you because they are not driving as fast as you think they should drive or where you think they should drive seems to point more to the LLD than the person they are criticizing.

I generally don't criticize the driver's speed so much, as I focus more on their lack of lane courtesy, lane adherence, and traffic impedance.

They can drive slow all day every day if they want, but they should remain to the right. I don't need them to drive faster, I need them to get out of the way more timely.

andres3 · January 2013

Strongly agree. And, one should be well aware (mirrors) that someone faster is approaching in left lane and "plan" ahead of time to move over to right lane and don't hold them up. Just common courtesy on the road.

Here Here, I strongly second that and agree as well.

I've never purchased a car in "invisible" paint, so I don't know why I ever have to flash my lights to remind someone to WAKE UP while driving.

andres3 · January 2013

Someone failing to yield to faster traffic in the left/passing lane for over 200 light flashes, or the person flashing the light over and over?

Since one can't happen without the other, I think you know my answer to that question.

Maybe it was just Mr. Stubborn running into Mrs. Stubborn on the same roadway.

backy · January 2013

... your generally not dealing with an ace shooter I bet.

OK. It's your life you are betting on, anyway.

Do you really want a handgun vs. a car in an open field?

Yes, especially a handgun (and who says it's going to be a handgun... another bet you're making, there) vs. a car being driven by someone ducking down so it will be really hard to aim the car at me--since I am free to move out of the way of the car.

But in actuality, I would take the 3rd choice... just try to drive courteously at all times. Then it's very unlikely I'll need to make the choice between the gun vs. the car in the open field.

jjackson12 · January 2013

Secondly, there was no time to change lanes and pass. The offending car decided to purposely drive at the exact same speed as the truck to it's right (on a 2 lane freeway). When that behavior was noticed, the next 195 of those 200 flashes ensued. Short of using the shoulder, had no option other than to continue flashing, tailgate, pit maneuver, shoot a weapon (wasn't packing though).

This is a classic example of LLD vs LLC, slowing down traffic for the rest of us.

gogogodzilla · January 2013

Had a relatively uneventful drive home tonight, except for the initial merge onto the highway from work.

At that point, I was stuck behind a Mazda Miata who would not accelerate to highway speed. So, the end result was that he couldn't merge onto a crowded highway because he wasn't matching highway speed.

And because he wasn't doing so, all of the cars behind him couldn't merge, either... myself included.

Eventually, the highway cleared up a bit and he could merge... so what did he do? Immediately cross two lanes of traffic to park himself in the left-lane and drive under the speed limit.

jjackson12 · January 2013

It seems that Mr. Explorer is our new neighbor and the spot in front of his house is where he will be parking his car. The street is almost clear of snow/ice and the Explorer is still in harm's way.

Some people never learn. :confuse:

stever · January 2013

Maybe he's trying to get it totalled out.

jjackson12 · January 2013

Well, depends on my current speed and range. But there are ways to duck that still allow you to see; your generally not dealing with an ace shooter I bet. A car is much bigger than a bullet, way easier to hit a body with.

huh? :confuse:

Why would you put yourself in that situation because somebody is driving too slow?

jjackson12 · January 2013

It would almost seem so, but the Explorer isn't that old and looks to be in pretty good condition. Except for the calling card that the Honda left last week.

It looks like the real reason is the number of vehicles at that house now. Besides the Explorer, I see two Focuses (Foci?), a battered Taurus, a Kia/Hyundai and a Mustang shuffling between the garage, driveway and street.

Maybe they should leave the Taurus in the street?

stever · January 2013

You need to saunter down and ask a few questions. Maybe the Explorer belongs to their kid and they are trying to tell him something.

andres3 · January 2013

OK. It's your life you are betting on, anyway.

Okay, but what do you do in your car if someone pulls a gun on you?? Call 911? Sorry, the Police are too busy issuing speeding tickets, you'll have to wait.

and who says it's going to be a handgun... another bet you're making, there

If you have a high powered semi-automatic rifle with a large magazine and ready-loaded clips, I wouldn't try a rush and run over tactic, probably a reverse and skidding u-turn and escape manuever is in order. No bet made, remember, the gun is pulled before I run you over, so I can tell what you got. The only bet is that you probably don't have much extra re-load ammo, and if you have a 6-shooter revolver, it's a pretty one sided battle when you waste your six bullets. If you pull out a piddly handgun, your getting run over, end of story, trust me, not even an NFL all-star running back could dodge a car going 100 MPH (who says I'm running you over at slow speeds?).

Your free to move out of the way but I'm free to drive the streering wheel correction into you.

As to your third choice, I really don't think it's your choice, I really don't think driving courteously helped the innocent victims of recent mass shootings, since one was at a school and the other was in a movie theater, did flashing lights tick those shooters off?

andres3 · January 2013

Why would you put yourself in that situation because somebody is driving too slow?

I wouldn't! If you go back and read all the posts in context, I said anyone with half a brain would already be 1/2 mile past the slow blocker by the time they whipped out a pistol.

But if someone did pull out a gun on me, and for some strange reason they were between me and my destination, baby, you better believe they are going down.

I would never shoot someone over poor driving habits, however, I would love to incapacitate their vehicle somehow (the situations talked about above were all in self-defense only).

backy · January 2013

Way, way out of line.

imidazol97 · January 2013

>No LLD here... just dealing with a LLC and teaching them a lesson.

ROFLMAO. Not LLD behavior!!! Wow. Just wow.

A car is a dangerous weapon. The roads are not meant to battlegrounds. There's nothing to be bragging about as a result of turning the highways into a place of revenge and attacks.

Just a little courtesy would have taken care of the kinds of problems with someone going near the speedlimit or even over the limit on two-lane interstates and holding up those who wish to speed behind them.

hammerhead · January 2013

"...fail to notice it, and you might get 2 or 3 slightly less friendly flashes, fail to notice that, and it'll get less friendlier still."

"My lights weren't going to stop flashing till they obeyed the law..."

" ...just dealing with a LLC and teaching them a lesson."

"...I would love to incapacitate their vehicle somehow..."

If those statements don't illustrate aggressive driving attitude, I don't know what will.
It's when the attitude translates to actions that trouble brews.

jjackson12 · January 2013

Whoa, you've been watching too many action movies.

Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

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