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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
Yeah, that's the first thing I think when looking at a minivan: aggressive.
OMG never mind, mom actually just sold the Cressida (1985, 209,000 miles on it) for $950....my baby is GONE!
Steve
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C1rybick, nice to meet you. If I really wanted or needed a van I too would choose an Inferno Red Grand Caravan ES. Candy Apple Red was a beautiful color but now Inferno Red is even brighter and stands out more. It truly is an "arrest me" red. As for aggressive, the 2001-2003 Grand Caravan ES models with the chrome wheels truly does have an "athletic" stance, to quote Edmunds. I hope you and your mom continue to enjoy your van!
the 70000 mile warranty is also a big plus.i guess they have a reputation of bad trannies but at least now they are willing to stand by their product.
Where other autmakers are making side-airbags, ABS and such standard features, the American automakers (and Chrysler) are taking them out and putting them in the "options" bin.
They cut out a lot of cost to themselve, and turn it into profit when it's sold as a package to the consumer.
So, no - I'm not surprised when I hear that Ford/GM/DaimlerChrysler have cut some feature off of their newer models. It appears that they are more bent on competing on price, vs. price AND quality.
ABS does not make a driver better, It just lets the driver have more control while braking. I would prefer to have it as an option.
In every accident, myself and all of my passengers that were wearing their seatbelts properly came away virtually injury free. The people in my vehicle that insist that they don't need seatbelts have always been injured (nothing too serious though). Side air bags are an option, why waste money on a questionable option. Just wear your seat belt properly.
The Nascar drivers don't have airbags in their cars. Just good crumble zones and seat belts. And they know more about accidents than any of us.
Why pay for what you don't want or possibly need?
Try tubular steel driver containment cages, helmets and 5 point safety harness. I wouldn't need side air bags, or any air bags for that matter, if I had that kind of structural integrity and restraint system. Side curtain air bags are meant to cushion the driver/passengers head from getting whacked on the A-pillar or door column. My friend's brother died in a roll over from exactly that. It was hard to believe because there was no apparent sign of injury to him.
Cold climate driving conditions do not necessarily equate to a higher accident rates. I live in the upper Midwest and have not experienced a fraction of the accidents you claim to have been in. At some point you might consider examining your driving skills/techniques. It never hurts to take some brush-up courses to avoid another accident.
PS
I have never been charged with any driving offenses in all of the accidents that I have been in. In every case I was not the driver at fault. (I am surprised because I am very clumsy when I do the dishes at home.) So my ability to drive is AOK. As for driving courses, been there, taught that, got the T-shirt.
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
A cousin of mine got into a car accident a few years back. The regular three point seatbelts were used, but since the accident was lateral in nature, she banged her head really hard against the window.
Needless to say, the monthlong coma wasn't a good thing to go through. Three years to this day, she is still in rehab trying to get her basic short-term memory and motor skills back to a useable state.
I completely agree that everyone should wear seat belts, but that side airbag does protect a part of your body that is easily damaged and hard to repair - the brain...
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20020914/1036070.asp
Still, you are right, at least it was identified quickly, and an engineering fix is underway. Let's hope it's the right fix.
Why should Honda owners have to drive a car with a known problem in it, and just wait for it to fail?
It all boils down to how Honda wants to treat their cutomers. So far, they aren't looking to customer friendly.
Losing control of a vehicle is not acceptable under any circumstances - especially at freeway speeds.
Imagine a family with kids getting wiped out because of a sudden downshift. The uproar will be as bad, if not worse than the Firestone fiasco.
Knowing how rare this problem can be, but how severe the failure can be - is it possible to flush the tranny line of any debris to prevent this from hapenning?
Additionally, which cars now have the modified transmissions? Honda hasn't made that very clear.
How do you know load leveling suspension and the deicer will not be avialable? Chrysler's website does not yet list the 2003 models.
No mention of load leveling suspension
No mention of windshield wiper deicer (apparent since it's no longer on the windshield)
Deletion of 8-way power driver's seat (tested out a 2003 4-way power seat, and all it does is recline and go forwards and backwards...no more tilt, up, down, etc.)
Full size spare now an option
CD player now an option
And no more CD compartment storage...now it's just an open space like in a Caravan Sport.
It seems that some of these same people made a rather big deal about a certain gas tank problem on DC vans. I'm sure that the odds of getting into a severe head-on collision followed by rollover (the basic scenario that discovered the problem in testing) is much less than 1.6% yet DC owners were mocked quite heavily about their exploding fire traps.
The transmission issue is a safety issue not a reliability issue. It would be as much of a concern to me as the gas tank issue. Since I own a 2001 DGC you can see that it was not much of a concern to me. It is just interesting to me that some on this board can quickly dismiss small percentage problems with their own vehicle while mocking others for their smaller percentage problems
If I had to choose between a fireballing minivan, or one that likes to go out of control on a tranny failure, I'd choose NONE of them.
However, bdady is also correct on one point. It took Chrysler OVER 10 years to resolve their tranny problems - I know for a fact that it stems way back to the early models too. Honda took five. Taking over ten years to admit, isolate and fix a well-known problem is just unacceptable.
Either way - anyone trying to fix their dead tranny (Ody or DC) due to bad design flaws will meet the same stiff resistance from both automakers when it comes to paying the bill.
I never said I liked the defect. The gas tank issue is kind of ironic since the accident that brought it to prominence (the one in which the parents survived, but all 5 children perished) happened about 10 miles from my home.
Not really 5. Got to remember the earlier trans problems on the Odyssey were with the 4 speed and they weren't even 1% of the build and were NOT a safety issue. They fixed them right away and tried to make the Odyssey even better with the new 5 speed which is a completely different trans and I agree very unacceptable problem, but at least Honda wasn't sitting on their hands saying duh, what problem, there isn't a problem, duh!
The FOUR-speed models were afflicted with a bad bearing that could break apart, scattering fragments of metal that clogged fluid passageways in the transmission, causing it to shift erratically, he said.
The FIVE-speed models typically were damaged by premature wear of the third-gear clutch pack. As the clutch friction material abraded, it scattered bits inside the transmission case, clogging fluid lines and causing erratic shifting.
Honda and Acura dealers are replacing affected transmissions under warranty - typically with factory rebuilt transmissions, a standard industry practice, Spencer said. He said customers such as Lammens have been caught in an unusual situation because Honda has never had a run of bad transmissions and thus has never had to stockpile replacement parts. When the FOUR- and FIVE-speed automatics started breaking, he said, a backlog quickly developed." So it sure looks like there is also a problem with the "new and Improved" FIVE speed.
As for the resale value, I think the 1999 and 2000 Odyssey owners might get the raw end of the deal on the resale value - because of the scarcity of the replacement tranny.
However, the 5 speed owners have little to worry about because it will be in production for a long time, and the new design fixes have already made it into the newer models.
If history serves as a good reference point, the tranny fiasco might not ding the Odyssey resale value as much as a DC van because of two variables:
1) Ody's are still in high demand, and they numbers are still relatively few compared to DC. Supply and Demand.
2) Unlike DC, the Ody had a fix in less than three years for the new 5 speeds - whereas the DCs only recently had the problem resolved.
I'm not sure if people are concerned with resale value as much as you think they are. The typical minivan owners tend to run these cars until it is time to replace them - which means that most of the value would have already been depreciated by the time they trade it in - an old beater is still an old beater, DC or HO, no difference IMHO.
If I had to buy a minivan again today, I would still have narrowed my search down to the Caravan, Odyssey and Sienna.
The Sienna would have been eliminated due to the size, and the caravan because of the interior style and functionality (no folding seat).
By admitting about the tranny flaws, and moving quickly to identify and fix these problems, Honda has not only done the right thing, but they have also assured themselves of a repeat buyer. This is something Daimler Chrysler does not do very well.
As for tranny failures, I have a 98% chance of having the whole car last me the intended 10 year lifecycle I have budgeted for it without a major drivetrain failure. That's pretty good in my book.
There's a reason why Chrysler bumped up their powertrain warranty to 7 years folks, and it's the same reason Hyundai\Kia have a 10 year drivetrain warranty....
Why, do you want to buy one for your Dad's DC? I warned you not to gloat - DC will have it's day you can be sure.
Hayneldan - I'm well aware of what caused the accident. I am suggesting that this accident, while not directly related to design of the DC gas tank, did serve to bring it to prominence, that's all. Like I said, glad you own a vehkicle with a perfect pedegrie.
Is it possible? Sure. Anything is possible. In that regard, anyone can somehow extrapolate a great number of mechanical problems into a huge safety panic. Do they recall every vehicle with any known drivetrain, braking or suspension problem?
So are loss-of-control transmission failures likely with the Odyssey (or any vehicle with know transmission issues)? I doubt it. Even taking the 1.6% replacement rate at face value, the odds of the failure happening while driving are not 100%. The odds of them happening in a dangerous situation are even less. Keep in mind that many major mechanical problems do manifest themselves with noises or other indicators and give some warning of impending failure. Plus, a sudden downshift does NOT necessarily mean loss of control. Your brakes and steering still work. It's not like the throttle or accelerator being stuck. If you don't panic, you probably won't lose control, and you can even turn off the engine if you can't change gears to neutral.
Even the notorious Chrysler transmissions of the late 90s never aroused panic in me for safety reasons. I heard numbers upwards of 50% failure rates for some series of these automatics. Thankfully, the one in our '95 Cirrus never had a problem. I was never panicked about it being a safety issue, though relatives and friends can attest that it was a severe annoyance issue. The dismal crash tests and blind spots were a far greater concern to me, especially once we had children...
I do not think this is a safety issue, and not (yet) much of a reliability issue. Time, as always, will tell.
Just my $0.02...