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Sports Wagons - The wave of the future?
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Even the Hummer fad is over. I'd assume the couple of weekend warriors bought their HUM-VEE for the soccer moms by now. Even Gov. Arnold is ashamed to drive his anymore.
What I find utterly sophomoric are the incessant put-downs of the current Intrepid merely because it found its way into rental fleets. That had nothing to do with their fabulous shapes. To those who foolishly insist on indicting that beautifully-styled sedan on this basis, name for me one sedan from a U.S. automaker which, in its entry-level model in a given size category, is not popular with rental fleet buyers?
If the 2nd-generation Dodge Intrepid had been introduced at the 1997 Turin Auto Show as the next Maserati Quattroporte, the world's automotive press would have swooned over its amazingly advanced styling. Instead, because Dodge brought that advanced styling to the masses (including fleet buyers) at an affordable price, people with unsophisticated styling tastes bash it with inane references to rental fleets. Spare me.
If the Magnum and 300C (which have all the styling sophistication of a sledgehammer) find even faint success in the marketplace, it will be because of their somewhat appealing RWD/AWD driveline platforms and despite their crude H2-derivative style, not because of it.
I read that the Grand Cherokee's Hemi will also have that feature.
My concern would be reliability, not exactly what they're known for, especially with risky v1.0 technology.
-juice
Anyway, you make a very good point. It shows you are paying attention. Why do the DC LX cars have such big front ends and big V-8s? Don't you know, this is what an American car is suppose to be. The designer of the 300 said he wanted to go back to a time when American styling ruled the road - the 50s. That is bigger, heavier, more aggressive with the attitude that says "I will run you down". It was a time when people did not care about gas prices so Detroit built these big engined cars. That is American, according to the Daimler people running the place. Myself, I feel that American cars can be sleek and sophisticated just like the rest of the world. I thought Detroit learned from the 70s and 80s, but when big trucks and Hummers are selling like hotcakes, and people are waving money around, Detroit quickly forgets. Just wait for the rumored 426 hp 6.1 V-8 Hemi to show up in a couple of years. Bigger is better!
I hope you are right about the oversized fad being out, but I think we have only seen the beginning.
"which have all the styling sophistication of a sledgehammer" I like that description. Yes, one of these LX cars will sell pretty well, while I wonder about the second one. I think the V-8, rwd, and different look will attract people for a while, but the keeper will be the Mercedes technology.
The grilles also provide a corporate "face" - the more Dodges that have the large crosshair grille, the better. It strengthens the brand identity in an era where the rest of the car differs heavily from model to model.
kcram
Host
Smart Shopper/FWI/Wagons Message Boards
Come on - much of America is that shallow. Just yesterday a lady at work told me she was about to buy an SUV because it would be safer for her kids if she gets in an accident. I don't even bother arguing with that kind of thinking any more. I do, however, think that the Magnum will appeal to quite a number of people. The 300C may be a bit of a tougher sell, but GM (Cadillac) has been pretty successful selling straight lines and sharp angles the last few years. I would be willing to wait a year or so before buying a Magnum to see if they really do come out with an SRT version.
on soapbox
The car makers just use better breathing as an excuse for their design. They don't want to have to admit that they made the grill large to be intimadating, and appeal to the insecurity that some (not all) buyers have.
off soapbox.
Absolutely 100% correct...they're appealing to the exact same insecurity that motivates 100-pound women (and some men with weak self images) to drive Excursions, Escalades, and Suburbans - 3-ton Sherman Tanks. It is crystal clear that this is the market DaimlerChrysler is targeting. Count me out.
Granted, my personal taste is not the same as everyone elses (then it wouldn't be personal), I do like the PT Cruiser, Crossfire and new Mini, but I cannot stand the Aztek. Currently I drive a 97 Subaru Impreza Outback -- which I bought for the looks (I don't care for the two most recent styling updates to the Impreza line), but it's starting to show some age, and I'm looking for another sporty wagon to replace it.
As for DC going down in flames just because they dared to bring to market a car or two with different styling than what everyone else has been working on the past 5-10 years, I doubt that would happen. We still see GM in business years after the monstrosity called Aztek was unleashed on the public. Chrysler survived the unveiling of the PT Cruiser (to this day, I'm the only one in my family who likes it). Ford did not die a horrid death when the Pinto graced our roads.
Requiring the Magnum to outperform a BMW 5-series wagon, yet maintain the economy of a V6 strikes me as humorous. I'm satisfied that it is only around 300lb heavier, has 15 more hp and 60 more torque, and comes within 1mpg of a 545i SEDAN, all at 60% of the base price. If it can give me the all-around performance that I want, you can bet there will be ONE Magnum proudly being driven around out there if for nothing else than to spite people who don't like styling changes.
No comparison. The Aztek's sales volume is nothing more than a tiny blip on GM's production and profit radar screen. The 300C and Magnum (and derivatives) are crucial to Chrysler.
Chrysler survived the unveiling of the PT Cruiser
Unlike the 300C and Magnum, the PT Cruiser is merely different - but not deliberately obnoxious.
you can bet there will be ONE Magnum proudly being driven around out there if for nothing else than to spite people who don't like styling changes.
Now there's a solid, substantive, well-thought-out reason for buying a new vehicle.
Usually true, and that's why I've been a loyal Chrysler owner since buying my first one in 1963. These latest LX designs aren't even a small step forward; they're a huge step back.
They've lost me, and I suspect they'll lose more than they gain.
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They're going to classify them as trucks of course! Well, at least the Magnum is a truck in NHTSA's eyes. How can they do that? Just like the PT Cruiser, with a flat load floor. Can anyone else say "CAFE is total BS?"
There, I thought you could! ;-)
-Ian
A buddy of mine just bought an S4 Avant. Hopefully I can talk him into a test drive as well. ;-)
-Ian
I hope the US gov doesn't have to bail out DC like it did in the '70's with Iacoca.
Voi
This long-time Chrysler fan and buyer thinks the Magnum would make a maggot gag.
-juice
-juice
Juice, that's been my beef for a long time. Today's cars seem to have lower and lower greenhouses and it goes a long way to explaining why my Dodge Ram dually is regulalrly cut off on the interstate.
My dad had a 1984 Pontiac 6000 wagon - talk about excellent visibility - you knew where every corner of that car was at all times. The new Magnum has such a downslope to its roof combioned with the high windowsill, it's no surprise that the rear windows are only slightly more than half the height of the front door windows.
kcram
Host
Smart Shopper/Wagons Message Boards
It is kind of useful on a truck, but in a car I just want the whole back door to raise up.
I love the look of the Magnum - it looks very American when compared to the really nice-looking wagons mentioned above - VWs and Audis. The domestics seem to have a knack for designing cartoon cars that would not look out of place in Batman, for instance, and making it work. To me, the whole Cadillac line is like that in the new Art&Science motif. Even the ugliest of the lot (and the only wagon), the SRX.
Saw the preview this week of the new 5-series wagon in Autoweek. Currently only for Europe, but the real disappointment is that when it finally gets here the V-8 will not be available, only the 3L six. And I don't think the stick will make it either. But it sure looks better than the sedan.
Obviously the top ranks of foreign carmakers still don't think there is a huge future for sport wagons in the U.S. - the production is limited to 5000 or something for America.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I hate the 5's hump back trunk, so yeah, the wagon is 100% better.
-juice
IMHO, there has been a trend over the past 15 years, as the world rapidly got "smaller", to embrace anything that is uniquely "American". Cars, burgers and US citizens started getting bigger and bigger. After September 11, 2001, the drivers of this trend hit warp speed.
At a deep pychological level , we have gotten into an "us against the world" mindset, encouraged in large measure by the current administration , especially. We design, buy and drive vehicles that try to send a message, " I'm not afraid of anything!", while the rest of the world laughs at our obvious insecurity.
Unlike Americans, folks in Japan and Korea are long-acquainted with international wars being waged in their homeland. Thus, they build relatively small( compared only to the US market...same size as the rest of the world)practical, stylish and,in many cases, true performance cars for domestic consumption and make behemoth phallic substitutes for the American market, sell them at great profit, and take those profits back home. You think anybody drives a Nissan Armada or a Toyota Sequoia in Japan????
Our government gives businesses tremendous tax incentives to buy huge SUV's and pick-up trucks, so we end up with doctors and accountants driving "company-owned" Nissan Titans to Home Depot to load up with azealas on Saturday. The folks who need a Nissan Titan are the owners of Nissan who have lots of US dollars to haul to the docks and ship back to Japan!
The US economy is heading for the top edge of Niagra Falls and many of us are blissfully ignorant as we float along in our land yachts...to torture the metaphor. As the world economy shakes out, gas prices will soar in the US, especially. The resulting cost of goods of all types and the costs of road construction and repair will likewise soar....maybe folks will need SUV's just to handle the potholes that will consume our roadways. The latest events in Iraq are generating even more antagonistic international focus on US culture and behaviors, and calling a purchase of a Dodge Durango, Magnum or Ram pick-up with a V8 Hemi engine to drive back and forth from home to the office, alone, a "personal choice...a simple matter of preference and personal style", is a pretty clear message to the rest of the world, one which includes two words: the second of which is the second-person singular and the first is a vularity sometimes used to describe copulation and more often used to communicate anger, disdain and frustration.
I think full size SUV's are great for large families and groups who need to tow things like sail boats and camper trailers, as an alternative to driving multiple vehicles. Likewise, full size pickups with crew cabs and enginenes which produce large amounts of usable torque are great for businesses like construction contractors and surveyors with crews that travel out to the work site together with a full load of materials and equipment in the bed or towed behind. I just wish I would see one of those vehicles used for those purposes once in a while.
On the other hand, I dont think I ever saw a young, single guy or a teenager with his girlfriend driving a Buick Roadmaster station wagon, or even a Chevy Mailbu wagon for that matter. I am confident that our citizens will soon get over their anxieties and seek something better. If car designers want to build something that reflects America at its best, if they really want go back to the Fifties, why dont they design and build vehicles which are targeted at American capability and economic sensibility: practical, stylish cars and station wagons, rather than vehicles which target insecurity and fear which have to be subsidized and discounted to sell and which lose resale value faster than unpasteurized milk.
...stepping down off soapbox...
Mark
Brian
It is a big gamble for Mazda to put out so many versions of the 6, including a wagon, and I hope it pays off for them. It is probably the best combination of sport and space available among the new non-premium wagons.
Crumbling roads and oil wars can definitely be linked to the wide proliferation of SUVs, IMO. I hope wagons make a big comeback, but I am also depressingly aware that Americans need bigger and bigger trucks to express their egos.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Mazda 6 wagon is a beauty. Unless Honda reacts "quickly" ( a somewhat confusing term considering how it took Mazda almost 3 years to bring out the 6 wagon) Mazda will have established its offering firmly as THE affordable sport wagon for those who dont want AWD. Its a whole lot of utility and fun for under $22K.
Mark
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Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
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2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm referring to the very unfortunate styling similarities (high beltlines, vertically narrow glass, too-near-vertical windshields that don't flow into the rooflines, gargantuan grilles, and suchlike. There is nothing sophisticated about these design trends. Same goes for the socially irresponsible trend to increasingly overweight vehicles.
Turbo Subaru sounds like an excellent vehicle to commute and suck fuel at a rate greater than those overpriced, overweighted, resale slumping suv's (looking for rolls eyes smiley). Last Subaru I drove drank more fuel than my old Jeep Cherokee, but I'd imagine a turbo would improve that (still looking...).
I think the sport-wagons should continue to be designed conservatively, as i'm tired of having my elitist ways infringed upon by the general public. Those dumdums can continue to buy their poorly styled SUV's (ask anyone that knows anything, they're ugly!!) and leave the sophisticated style of wagons to our 1% of the population. Good plan (where is that rolls eyes smiley....?)
I've long had this complaint about full-size pickups. It seems each new generation of truck is larger than the one it has replaced, with no or little increase in payload. I used to have a base-level '86 F-150 4x4 with a 2000 lb payload and a 6200 lb GVW. Today, the base-level F-150 has a lower payload and a higher GVW, hardly what I'd call progress...
BTW, raise these kinds of complaints over in any of the truck forums here, and you'll be bombarded with all sorts of insults.
Bob
Frankly, I wish the old "Chicken Tax" would get repealed (there's talk of it) so that we can get some reasonably sized pickups from Europe and Asia to compete with the Detroit behemoths. Maybe then we'll see some pickups with thinking and ideas like those found in the Mercedes-engineered Freightliner/Dodge Sprinter vans.
Bob
Now you're talking (I work for Freightliner).
I'd love to see that 5-cyl common-rail direct-injection turbodiesel adapted for marine use.
Why bother reading it if your contributions are no more substantive than the above?
Take your rolleyes elsewhere.
Thanks
kcram
Host
Smart Shopper/Wagons Message Boards
Why bother reading it if your contributions are no more substantive than the above?
Take your rolleyes elsewhere.
Yes! Posts claiming insecurities, piggishness, and unsophistication of individuals that buy vehicles not styled to a certain persons liking is so much more substantive!
On to the topic, which hasn't been touched on in quite some time=;
To be a sport wagon in my book, it better have some style that can't be found on the toyota lot. Of the current crop of "sport wagons", the Magnum is one of very few that has any amount of "sporty" look to it. Smooth lines, low belt-lines, and lots of visibility are not common attributes of a sports car design. If that's the case, then you'd have to consider a Toyota Solara a sports car. To get those aggressive looks that attract buyers, some function and utility are regularly compromised. My daughter insisted she wanted a Celica GTS over a numerous list of other vehicles I thought were much better. It caught her eye, even if it is a poorly performing, cheaply built, uncomfortable car with terrible visibility.
So far the most useful, marginally performing, and undersold wagons have been quite bland in terms of style IMHO. I've heard more positive comments concerning the Magnum from folks that likely would not own any other current wagon. While it definitely has an "in-your-face" design as far as it's truckish snout, there is obviously a large following who desire that look. Now if the Chrysler 300 wagon was to be built as was rumored, I think there would be two excellent choices available for different styling tastes.
Oh, really? So Jaguar E-type coupes must all have been trucks, right? Couldn't possibly be sports cars, with those smooth lines, low beltlines, great visibility, and so forth.
Good grief.
It's not that hard to find smooth lines, but the majority of sports cars have higher beltlines and less than stellar visability. A viper is not fun to drive in traffic or park. Most wagons that could be considered "sport wagons" are fairly ho-hum in the design department. Haven't seen anything with the looks of a modern day Aston Martin, 350Z, or even the ancient E although I don't see that styling cue coming back anythime soon. I'm not a big fan these days. If memory serves they did have a model with a wagon door or something though. Have to ask my neighbor, he's an e-type collector.
So the BMW 3-series wagon is probably the quintessential sport wagon, as the industry defines it. Quite a lot of fun to drive too, if you hop in a 330. What is your take on it? I would say that styling-wise it stands out very little from "the Toyota lot", although it does have a decent look. Looks-wise, I would certainly choose a Magnum over it (but not for any other reason!).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)