Sports Wagons - The wave of the future?

rsholland · May 2004

Several road tests have reported 0-60 times in the neighborhood of 13 seconds. That is highly competitive with domestically-built full-size vans that can come nowhere near 23 MPG. The Sprinter never really feels underpowered.

But what about when it's a carrying a load? I'm sure empty the power is ample.

Bob

rsholland · May 2004

Doesn't the much more powerful Dodge/Cummins diesel produce similar performance and fuel mileage as the Sprinter?

Bob (playing devil's advocate)

ballistic · May 2004

If you can live with the racket. The Sprinter's CDI 5-cyl is remarkably quiet.

ateixeira · May 2004

C&D's as-tested fuel economy was superb, very impressive for such a huge vehicle. It was $30k plus or so, IIRC.

-juice

dudleyr · May 2004

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- - - e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02323283

This is a sportwagon that I like, allthough it is kinda close to being a hatch, but it is squared off in the back like a wagon, and the rear windows are full sized. The VW Fox wagon only had two doors, and it was definately a wagon, so I think 2 doors does not disqualify a vehicle. No matter how it is classified I think it looks great. Love the backside.

Stretch it a tad, and put in a couple more doors, and it is definately a wagon.

enygma6 · May 2004

After having test driven the Magnum RT a week ago, despite it being an excellent all-around vehicle, I don't think I could honestly classify it as a "sport wagon." Though I do not have a clear definition of what a sport wagon really is, to me, a sport wagon is a smaller, nimble wagon with somewhat firm suspension, good road holding and a decent amount of power, along with a distinct look that sets it apart from a bland ordinary car.
I currently drive a '97 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport, which meets my classification of "sport wagon," but is beginning to show its age and I'm looking to upgrade to something more powerful.
The Magnum does have a good suspension setup (no noticeable difference in terms of body roll compared to my Impreza -- that's a good thing). I did not intentionally cover any rough roads on the testdrive, but I did not feel any unnecessary road roughness going through the cabin.
It holds the road quite well, and with the available traction control and ESP systems stability is awesome. Even launching from a dead stop, there was hardly any wheel spin before it gripped on and took off.
And for power, the Hemi engine has plenty to spare. Easily capable of moving it's 2-ton bulk, the engine was never left wanting.
The drawback to the Magnum is the sheer mass of the car itself. This does impact handling, as during tight turns, especially when carrying speed, you feel the full inertia of the car. I was caught a bit off guard by this the first time I tried accelerating out of a corner, something I can easily do with my much lighter Impreza (2800lb vs. 4100lb). I had no problem controlling the Magnum on highways or through normal suburban driving, but it just doesn't have the the nimbleness of lesser cars. To me, that is the one drawback for the Magnum, it will force me to change my driving style a bit (though removing a bit of reckless abandon on my part probably wouldn't be a bad thing as far as insurance and legality is concerned).
The final, and arguably most important aspect of a sporty car is the look. The Magnum definitely has a distinct and polarizing look, one which I personally like, but others very much do not.
All in all, I find the Magnum to be a very capable vehicle, which offers more than what my current car does (especially in refinement of the interior -- leather seats, much better noise insulation, navigation system), but the massive weight of it detracts enough where I do not feel comfortable classifying it as a "sport wagon" against such vehicles as the Subaru Impreza, Lexus IS300 wagon, and BMW 3-series. I would classify it as more of a Touring Wagon or even Muscle Wagon given the hemi engine and 18" wheels.
(I really wanted to test out the IS300 wagon, but the local Lexus dealer told me he hadn't seen one in over a year and immediately tried selling me an RX330 after I'd repeatedly told him no SUV's, I'm only looking at wagons.)

For those who do not like the look of the Magnum, you don't have to worry too much, since the Magnum design is the absolute limit for as far as Daimler-Chrysler is going in the direction of high belt lines, chopped roofs/windows, and flat-sided cars according to one of the design leads they had on Autoline Detroit last sunday. He also mentioned that "cab forward" is not dead, they just wanted to try the opposite end of the spectrum for their first cars on the new rear-drive platform, and that future vehicles will not likely be nearly as extreme as the Magnum in the styling, though I suppose only time will tell.

altsuv · June 2004

The VW Fox wagon only had two doors, and it was definately a wagon,

I had a Fox wagon! That was a great car - ugly, boxy - but so versatile and economical. You couldn't call it a sport wagon, though. I sold it to my father-in-law about 6 or 7 years ago, and he's still driving it.

I like that little Volvo in your link. No way, 2 doors doesn't disqualify a vehicle - if anything, it makes it more 'sport'.

subewannabe · June 2004

I think of the Magnum as a sport wagon for those who dont live in the mountains. DC engineers have done breakthrough work, IMHO, in tuning a suspension and creating an engine that will move that 2 ton vehicle quickly, safely and with surprising economy. The only time that bulk becomes a liability is in the roller-coaster turns where your accelerating, braking, climbing, descending and turning in a constant flux of combinations.

Mark

iowabigguy · June 2004

I got some wheel time in both the 3.5 v6 and the 5.7 v8 Magnum. The v6 has a lot more get up and go than I thought. The Hemi version is more of a highway cruiser than a sporty car/wagon. I personally feel confined within the Magnum. The roof is so low and the windshield so vertical that you have to crane your neck forward to see traffic lights. Visibility to the rear is also poor. The gas mileage probably wont hit EPA numbers for city driving. I reset the computer on a portion of my test drive and was averaging 7.2 MPG going with the flow of traffic stop light to stoplight. I think it is a little too small for my taste. I'll probably keep my Hemi Ram for a while longer. It gets better city mileage and has much more headroom. Maybe when the new charger arrives next fall.

dudleyr · June 2004

Saw my first Magnum in person today. It does look pretty nice (growing on me), but it is still nothing I would ever buy - just too bulky. You don't really get much for all that bulk either. The rear seat does seem roomy, but the cargo area (with rear seats up) is smaller than what my old '90 Corolla Wagon had by quite a large margin. It seems to me a gussied up Taurus Wagon with a Mustang engine and some better suspension bits would sure have a lot more "utility". Still wouldn't be my cup of tea though.

sebring95 · June 2004

I looked at a Passat TDI wagon and a Magnum on the same lot. I see a big difference in the bulk, the Magnum has tons more room. The biggest benefit IMHO is the width. The Passat is rather narrow and three adults would not be comfy for long. The Magnum is much wider and would accomodate adults or car seat much much better. Cargo space looked to be a tie. Magnum is lower quality fit/finish/materials, but still not bad for a domestic, whatever that is. Not comparable to a VW though. Now that I bought a new truck for towing and we've dropped to five passengers being the norm, I might be able to replace the Tahoe with the Magnum AWD. It was a pipe dream to think the Passat could work, but I absolutely love my Jetta TDI so I was really wanting the Passat to work.

dudleyr · July 2004

I just read an article in Autoweek that says how hot sportwagons are. The only problem is they are defining sportwagons as small car based SUV's. They cited the Ford Escape and CRV as examples.

Give me a break!

ateixeira · July 2004

AW has held a minority view, and sort of refuses to call these true SUVs.

Of course they labeled these as Sport Wagons well before a new crop of sport wagons arrived - WRX for example.

-juice

damish003 · July 2004

Agreed, Dudleyr. I find nothing sporty about the CRV, and have no experience with the Escape. Now the Magnum, OTOH, much as I hate to admit it, that is one hot-looking sport wagon. I think I'll go test drive it, just for fun.

-Dan-

ateixeira · July 2004

Among the sporty ones...

S4 Avant (do they still make one?)
WRX wagon
Dodge Magnum Hemi
Volvo V70R

etc.

-juice

rsholland · July 2004

Dan, start with a 5-speed WRX sport wagon, or a 5-speed Forester XT, or a Legacy GT (5-speed manual or 5EAT SportShift). The only problem, other than picking a price point that you're comfortable with, is you may have trouble wiping the grin off your face once you're finished.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2004

Thought of a couple more:

Mazda3 2.3l 5 door
Volvo V50R
Matrix XRS/Vibe GT

-juice

dudleyr · July 2004

Juice,

What about the Legacy GT?

ateixeira · July 2004

Duh, and I've driven a few.

Passat W8 4Motion wagon...

-juice

dudleyr · July 2004

Can you get a manual tranny in the Volvo this year? Also Mazda6 and Passat. There are plenty out there without having to start adding SUV's to the category.

Really like that Mazda3 - wish they made a true wagon - the 5 door just has so little room behind the rear seats.

ateixeira · July 2004

Yeah, call that a Sport Hatch. ;-)

-juice

damish003 · July 2004

Bob - Well, I'm not in the market for anything now, since my lease on the Subie isn't up for 2 years. I just like to test-drive things sometimes. I have driven the WRX 5-speed, and you're right, it was hard to get the grin off my face. I haven't tried the FXT yet, but would love to. My dealer just got in some of the 05 OB's and Legacys, so I'll try them too. I like the look of the Magnum, but it looks from the outside as though rear visibility might be compromised with the design. Have you been into one yet?

-Dan-

rsholland · July 2004

I like the look of the Magnum, but it looks from the outside as though rear visibility might be compromised with the design. Have you been into one yet?

I sat in one at the Detroit Auto Show IIRC. I haven't really looked seriously at one. Maybe when the AWD version debuts this fall...

Bob

ateixeira · July 2004

They put $500-1000 on the hood already.

-juice

wale_bate1 · July 2004

Uhh, IS300 SportCross.

Not because I own one you understand... ;-)

BTW, yes Virginia, there is an S4 Avant. Furthermore, as of this weekend's test drive, SWMBO has given her unconditional seal of approval should I decide to pursue one at the end of the Lexus lease! What a babe!

Re Magnum: I took the opportunity to tool around in an SXT this weekend. I think this is a winner. A serious winner; even without the Hemi.

It ain't no sport wagon. But a winner, and no two ways.

tzoomer · July 2004

What do you think: a sport wagon is either a sports car with a real back seat and cargo space (remember the pioneering Volvo, what, P7?, their finned sports car with a square tail; WRX, Legacy XT, Passat W), or a hot sedan with the lengthened tail of a wagon (like the old Chevy Nomad surfer wagon; Mazda6, Saab). I'd put more emphasis on nimble handling (high g's in the corners and quick transients, light weight) and sweet shifting (not even Jim Hall could make an automatic go fast) than pure straight-line "muscle" power, plus pizzaz that sets it apart from dullsville wagons (sleek styling, turbos, C-posts, 2-doors, styled wheels, special colors, or stripes, or etc.). No 3-row seating, no hiked suspension, no truck frames or tires, no Freightliners [sorry]). Still a driver's car, for people who like cornering at speed without rolling over. Some of the hatchback models have the right spirit, too, like the VW GTI's. While the Magnum is certainly distinctive enough, it seems to me to have too much of a Teutonic retro-hoodlum look for a "sport" vehicle, more in the "muscle car" vein, don't you think? (But it will surely "pump up" our wagon image.)

OR do you think a sport wagon is not a "sporting car" but rather a car for outdoor sporting people with gear to haul, like the AWD Outback or Honda Element (washable interior!)? But that's what an SUV or mini-SUV is for, right? Or those Van people with more people to haul, sorta grown-up family wagons of yore.

dudleyr · July 2004

P1800!

I posted this earlier, but why not again. I love how the back reflects the old P1800, though it is probably more hatch than wagon.

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02323283

To me sports car is an MGB convertable. Nimbleness trumps accceleration. Add a rear seat and cargo area and you have a sport wagon. Earlier the term muscle wagon came up for the Magnum. I think that fits.

ozman62 · July 2004

tzoomer, you're one funny guy. That's right on.
Owen

norrmanndo · July 2004

You have Sports Cars, and you have Sport Utility Vehicles, but neither really fit the bill if you want both in one vehicle. So finally sports wagons are getting more respect. Many cross-over SUVs are getting closer to what everyone really could use, but for most of us the wagon still fits the bill if we just admit it. I have a Mazda Tribute and a PT Cruiser GT. Both of these could be considered sports wagons. For general city/highway driving, the PT is much more fun, since it has manual, 20 more HP and better handling (as long as you're on a good quality road). We have two kids so it's sometimes a pain to take two cars when we have guest riders, but that's not common. Someday we may get a minivan, or wagon that has 3rd row seats.

ateixeira · July 2004

Good question, does the Sport in the name refer to the vehicle itself, or what the owner does with it?

In other words, does it have to perform well on a track or off road competition, or is it just a matter of being able to haul kayaks and mountain bikes to that decathlon you've just entered?

To me, it's clearly the former, the vehicle itself has to be sporty. That's why, IMO, the SUV label is misleading - they're not the least bit sporty, really.

If we did allow the latter, then every VW Bus out there with a surf board would qualify as an SUV.

So, Sport Wagon means it hauls in BOTH ways, the gear, sure, but it has to handle and accelerate well above the norm.

So, S4 Avant or Legacy GT, yes, absolutely. Sport wagon.

I'd call the Audi allroad quattro and Outback just a utility wagon, minus the sport part. Almost all SUVs are really just UVs.

-juice

dudleyr · July 2004

To take it one step further. The minivan or full sized van would be the ultimate sport utility as they have the most room inside for gear and people.

As far as getting to where the sport is. Most vans do just fine. I was going up the tetons once in a friends 4WD and at the top there was a stock VW bug. I used to go all over the blue ridge in western Virginia (not to be confused with West Virginia) on fire trails in my Scirocco - even had to help push a jeep that went off the road up near the top on a snowy day.

Vehicles are capable of much more than they usually are asked to do.

enygma6 · July 2004

I seem to recall the term "Sport Activity Wagon" being used to classify the Subaru Outback a few years back when comparing it to SUV's or normal cars (before the term "crossovers" came into popular terminology).

There are two common definitions to the term "sport" being used in connection with vehicle classification. One being that the vehicle itself is "sporty" in some way, be it lots of power, nimble handling, etc.
The other is that the vehicle aids in sporting or sporting related activities, but is itself not asked to participate directly therein.
To me, if there is an adjective in the name (Sport Activity or Sport Utility), it implies the vehicle is lending assistance to the ability of the driver to partake in a sporting activity, hence SUV's with horrendous handling and speed are still "sport" somethings as they allow the driver to haul whatever sport-related materials they desire around.
Pure "sport" vehicles (sport cars, sport wagons) imply the vehicle itself is the focus of the particular sport, wherein the vehicle is specifically tuned to be very fast, have exceptional handling, or able to handle twisty roads better than a normal basic passenger car.

Thus I would classify the Audi S4 and Subaru Impreza WRX (possibly even Legacy GY) as "Sport Wagon" as they are geared more toward typical sport car performance characteristics, despite their ability to haul extra stuff.
The Subaru Outback and Audi Allroad I would call "Sport Activity Wagons" (or "crossovers" if you don't like the antiquated term) in that they are set up more for an all-terrain type of hauling experience, not pure street-racing performance.

Now as for the Dodge Magnum, while I do love my new toy, I am still uncertain as to which of these categories it really fits under. With the 5.7l Hemi v8 and RWD powertrain, it is more than capable of high speeds and ridiculous acceleration, yet it's sheer bulk keeps it from being as nimble as say a Subaru Impreza wagon (an older model of which I traded in for my Magnum). The styling and suspension are not really set up for more than the most minor of off-roading (or at least I'm too chicken to take mine away from the pavement any time soon, it still has the new car smell).
It doesn't really fit the predefined definitions, similar to the Porche Cayenne or Infinity FX being much more performance-oriented than say a Ford Expedition in the SUV category.
I'm partial to the term "Muscle Wagon" to decribe the magnum, but I don't want to go about creating a whole other classification of wagons, I'm having enough trouble keeping things straight as they are.

krzyss · July 2004

now there could be pony wagon.

Krzys

ateixeira · July 2004

I agree for the most part, with one exception. Why doesn't Toyota call the RAV4 with just FWD the RAV2? The 4 was meant to indicate the number of drive wheels.

Allow me to elaborate, why are 2WD SUVs still called SUVs? Quite often those 2WD models lack the skid plates and even the ground clearance of their 4WD counterparts.

So IMHO those vehicles don't qualify under the "vehicle aids in sporting or sporting related activities" clause.

-juice

tomsr1 · July 2004

Why not call it a totaly real utility car kinda. Think truck will catch on? Come on off roaders lighten up. If I am having fun in my junker to me it is sport.If I haul manure in my corvette it is utility.Probably the most versatile vehicle is a Subaru Baja but it is so ugly.If they would redo it along the lines of the old SVX maybe it would sell better.Maybe true off road vehicles are meant to charge your low testerone since they rarely see dirt.

nippononly · July 2004

you made me laugh. I have a friend with a 2WD 4Runner, and I am forever referring to it as the "2Runner". He doesn't like that very much when I do so! :-P

And BTW, he and I have both have the 1990-95 generation, and there is no "sport" in that "SUV", believe me. It is so old school trucky, I say what's the point if you're only going to have 2WD?

boaz47 · July 2004

If we simply call them "sporty" wagons. Anyone that has driven a S-2000, Porsche Boxster, C-6 or any number of sports cars will find very little sports to many wagons. Sporty yes, but with 4 doors and a rear storage compartment for the luggage it doesn't inspire visions of winning Lemans.

ateixeira · August 2004

S2000 and Boxster are roadsters, Corvette is...sorta hard to pigeon hole, but a sports/muscle car maybe.

I don't think those would stop me from considering an S4 Avant a sport wagon.

-juice

tzoomer · August 2004

That's good. "Sporty" meaning it's not the real thing. "Pony car" (krzyss #391) meant pretty much the same, I think, all those cars that emulated the original Ford Mustang, like Chevy Camaro/Pontiac Firebird, and Plymouth Barracuda (= original Trans-Am road racers), then the Pontiac GTO transition into Muscle Car drag racers. The pony/sporty cars were all defined by the revival of the Classic 1930's sportster look, the long hood + short trunk proportions (Duesenberg, Mercedes SSKurz, Morgan), best seen in the contemporary extreme Jaguar E-Type (once described as a "motorized p-----s"). (Between them were the equal-proportioned cars where you couldn't tell "whether they were acomin' or agoin'," initiated by the late 1940's Fords and Raymond Lowey Studebakers, aka Chrysler's cab-forward design.) Anyway, no can mistake any wagon for a "Mustang-style" pony car, so "sporty" seems to better catch the right tongue-in-cheek spirit, an imitation without all the creature discomforts of a jarringly real 2+2 sports car? Hmm, now that reminds me of the old concept of Grand Touring cars, big sporty cars with room for lots of luggage...

sebring95 · August 2004

In this weeks Automotive News, they had stats for trade-ins of other vehicles on the Dodge Magnum. 28% of new magnums had pickup trucks traded in, 19% were SUV's, and around 18% were sedans. 77% that purchased the Magnum were male, compared to Dodge's overall male average of 71%. Says they have standing orders of 40,000 and will be several months before production can catch up. There was also a stat on the number they were producing with Hemis, but I can't recall it. If anyones interested let me know and I'll look it up.

ateixeira · August 2004

They should have called it the Dodge Testoterone. That's an incredible male bias.

I wonder about the 300C.

Yeah, could you find out what % are Hemis?

-juice

edunnett · August 2004

I blew away some guy in a spanking new Chrysler 300 today in my XT. He wasn't even TRYING. That's soooo disappointing.
e

ateixeira · August 2004

Keep in mind most of those will not have the Hemi, though you could prolly take one even if it did. ;-)

C&D's XT was actually quicker in the 1/4 mile than the 300C, and the Magnum is heavier.

-juice

qbrozen · August 2004

months before production catches up? guess i should tell that to the dealer I drove past the other day who had a line of them tucked in with the Rams.

ateixeira · August 2004

I'm sure that demand is regional. You'll see them sitting in lots in import-dominated and snowy regions (until 4Matic arrives), but in Detroit and Texas I bet they sell plenty.

-juice

qbrozen · August 2004

oh, of course, like all car sales, its regional. I just always find it confusing how one area can have backed up orders while another has them sitting around. Haven't these dealers ever heard of dealer trades? But, I'm not a dealer, so what do i know.

plus, I've seen tons of 300s on the roads around here, so i'm kind of surprised at the lack of interest in the Magnum. But, hey, maybe I can get one at a deep discount, ya think?

ateixeira · August 2004

$500-1000 in rebates already, but I think you have to finance through them.

The rebates tell me demand cannot possibly be *that* great.

Dealers around here (MD near DC) have rows of them in their lots also.

-juice

sebring95 · August 2004

Well there is a difference between customer orders and dealer orders. Standard inventory for a car dealership is to have 3X as many vehicles on your lot as you plan to sell during the month. I'll get the article next time I'm at myu office to get the exact specs.

IIRC, the Brampton factory was designed to mainly build 300's with the Magnums picking up the slack. I think the magnum demand might be higher than they initially planned, hence they're trying to catch up. The factory has been working overtime according to previous reports.

ateixeira · August 2004

I think the industray goal is a 60 day supply. Below that and you have a shortage, above that and you have....rebates!

)

Wonder how the 300 and Magnum are doing in that regard.

-juice

sebring95 · August 2004

Found the article, Automotive news 7/26/04....

"Dodge has nearly 40,000 orders for Magnums, Chrysler group spokesman Kevin McCormcik says..... Dodge is still filling the pipeline. Dealerships should reach allocated inventory levels in 45 to 60 days.....Dodge expects to build about 50 percent of Magnums with the Hemi engine....Dealers say they want more 340hp Hemi equipped Magnum RT units that are selling at sticker price. Negotiated prices below sticker are the norm for the six-cylinder Magnum"

I'm guessing that's what is sitting on the lots in larger quantities.

Production numbers show 67,402 300's and 24,917 Magnums produced through 7/24/04.

Sports Wagons - The wave of the future?

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