Toyota Matrix vs. Mazda Protege5

Tup · February 2002

There are a few differences between a base and an XR Matrix. For one thing the seat material is slightly different but not really inferior to the XR. The center console in the base is a one level console while the XR has a two level console. The 2 level console is just a little higher and easier to rest your arm on than the one level. I was able to find someone who works at the plant and they sent me a 2 level console...very easy to install. Your dealer can probably order one for you. The single level isn't bad...just a little low.

Also, the side mirrors and door handles are always black on the base....not a concern for us as our vehicle is black.

badtoy · February 2002

Sorry, I did not review the reliability for the Protege -- several other Mazda products have gotten poor reviews over the years, including the 323 and 626 (the 323 was also produced as the Ford Escort, which was a rolling abomination -- cracked heads were the order of the day).

I'm glad to hear that the Protege is a good car -- I wish Mazda nothing but the best, as more companies building great products is nothing but good for all of us.

badtoy · February 2002

The Miata has also proven to be a very stout piece, and still defines the essence of the affordable sports car segment. The RX7, on the other hand, while having the most intoxicating styling and personality of any sports car in recent memory, had multiple problems for the first two years of production, as I recall. So it's a spotted record at best. Mazda needs to tighten the screws on ALL of its products before it can overtake the big three in terms of reliability (Toyota, Honda and Nissan).

maltb · February 2002

"...(the 323 was also produced as the Ford Escort, which was a rolling abomination -- cracked heads were the order of the day)."

Actually, the Mazda powered Escorts were the more relable versions. I think the cracked head escorts you speak of were the old cast iron head ford motors.

Sporin · February 2002

Yup. The Protege based Escorts are the only Ford that is on CR's recommended used car buy list.

mdaffron · February 2002

My brother had a 1985 Mercury Lynx (rebadged Ford Escort). The head cracked on his while it was being driven for its trade-in evaluation at a Honda dealer in 1991. What luck!!!

Meade

bluong1 · February 2002

Sure, the old 626 had few problems with the transmission (Ford origin?), RX7 is not reliable as expected (the technology of the rotary engine is challenging, but Mazda made it works and even won the 24h Le Mans with such engine). However, don't you think it's more relevant to examine the reliability of the Protege/Protege5 for a fair comparison with the Matrix rather than look at the problems with few old Mazda models?

the_big_h · February 2002

I really get annoyed when someone tries to create negative comments by mentioning past vehicles that have no relation to the cars that are being discussed. What's the point???

The only valid reliability record of past cars that people can look for when looking up the Protege5 would be the 99+ Protege sedans, and maybe the second generation Proteges (95-98), anything earlier than that is probably no longer valid.

mdaffron · February 2002

I'll refer all of you to post 77 again. But I wouldn't exclude first-generation Proteges. The current 2.0 traces itself all the way back to the 1.8 in the 1990 Protege. Now stop talking about Escorts and 626s, and go back and read post 77 again.

Meade

maltb · February 2002

I can't let that slip by.

The current 2.0L goes back to its intro in the '93 626.

It is not related at all to the BP engine in the old Pro and Miata.

mdaffron · February 2002

The current 2.0 is a bored-out version of the old 1.8 that's in my 2000 ES, which is itself the offspring of the 1.8 in the first- and second-generation models.

At least that's what I've read! But even if I'm wrong, your correction still proves my point: in your version, the engine has a 9-year track record. So it's proven, eh?

Meade

maltb · February 2002

yes, it has a good track record...just keep it away from Ford trannies.

The 1.8 in the 1999 and 2000 ES is a de -stroked version of the 2.0 in the 2001-02. This motor, the FS, has no relation to the 1.8 BP in the 1st and 2nd gen pros or Miata.

jiggerz201 · February 2002

Woo Hoo! I just bought a Protege 5. I should pick it up in a week or so. I chose it over the Matrix because 1. it is a known quantity, 2. I could negotiate for a better package, 3. it drives better, 4. it has a real tonneau cover.

The negotiation wasn't a cakewalk but it ended up ok. They tried to tack on an extra hundred bucks but I stood firm and they acquiesced. They are definitely still making money but I got a pretty good deal. I think at least. I would be interested to know if anybody has been able to do better. I'm not looking for the trophy for the best deal. I am just curious what other people's experiences have been. Here is my deal, all in Canadian dollars. I negotiated with them using an "on the road" price that includes all fees, taxes(15%) and charges. For the below I paid $24250 on the road. The only thing I am paying in addition to this will be $93 for license transfer, a tank of gas and finance registrations fee. Here is what I got for my hard earned and hard negotiated money.

-Protege 5
-Blue
-5 speed
-air conditioning
-full rustproofing (undercoating, rust inhibitor in the door panels -$699 value)
-Immobilizer alarm system (the factory security system doesn't come with the immobolizer. This includes both the immobolizer and a shock sensor, so if someone breaks the windows the alarm will go off. I forget what the retail value of this is but somewhere near a thousand.)
-factory cargo tray-$95

Feel free to ask about my negotiation experience, especially if you are about to go through the same.
Anyone one have any ideas on stuff to look out for when I pick it up?

matrix2003 · February 2002

Let me be the first to congratulate you and wish you the best of luck with your purchase!

Make sure to keep us posted! BTW I'm glad someone else also saw through Toyota's retarded "tonneau cover"!

I'm not sure what US-Canada exchange rates are but I can tell you that the car I'm looking at Pro5 w/ automatic, moonroof, and perimeter alarm (with shock sensor) is around US $15.5K EXCLUSIVE of taxes (basically invoice price minus about $1700 in rebates).

One personal thought...to be honest, I'm kinda surprised that they're still selling the rustproofing. Isn't that the item that salesmen are notorious for inflating car prices with??? You know all those extras they tack on after giving you a "lowball" price??? Let me know....

badtoy · February 2002

we're gettin sensitive here, aren't we?

I think I made it abundantly clear that I realize I made a mistake about the Protege -- just how much crow does a guy have to eat? Lighten up, folks -- it's just a car!!

As for the crappy Escorts, I was under the impression they had aluminum heads, just like my Cougar did. Owners of Escorts, TBirds and Cougars tended to buy Alumiseal by the gross. Of course, maybe Alumiseal works on cast iron, but in any case the engines were junk.

mdaffron · February 2002

Have another helping of crow. Would you like some cranberry sauce with that? EAT, BOY!!! We're gonna hold this against you until the day you shrivel up.

Hee hee ... everyone makes a boo-boo now and then! (I think I did regarding engine lineage myself.) Let's all lighten up!

Meade

revka · February 2002

let's please keep it friendly and civil when expressing our different opinions. Thanks! ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards

badtoy · February 2002

Thanks dude -- I LOVE cranberry sauce!! =O)

mdaffron · February 2002

Thanks revka -- for letting us go off-topic a little there for the sake of sanity.

Meade

sloankr · February 2002

mdaffron mentions that the current 2.0 began as the 1.8 in 1990 Protege's.

Well...mine is still going strong. No problems.

Only 1 problem - it's so reliable that I can't quite justify trading it in. If it ain's broke, why fix it?

the_big_h · February 2002

1990 Protege's 1.8 engine has no relation to the current 2.0L. It's actually more related to the Miata's 1.8, if I recall correctly...

scott31 · February 2002

I looked at the Mazda and liked it a lot, but the thing that made the decision for me was that I wanted my next car to have a Navigation system in it. The Vibe and the Matrix are the only ones that fit the bill, the CR-V, the RAV-4, etc don't fit the bill.

Then went Ponitac wanted $2000 more for the Vibe over the Matrix, that sealed the deal right there.

badtoy · February 2002

Everybody in my posse thought for sure that Toyota would charge more for the Matrix, just as they did with the Corolla vs Prizm. How cool.

sunbyrne · February 2002

You have got to be kidding me. $2K more for the *Pontiac* version of the car? What is GM rebadging it with, a platinum-titanium alloy?

scott31 · February 2002

Yep, it's crazy, fire up Edmunds, and price out a loaded Vibe GT vs a Matrix XRS 6speed....

I have talked to a GM Rep and a Pontiac Rep via local dealers, the only excuse I can get is "but we have a roof rack"

Can't wait for the first sales figures to hit.....

Sporin · February 2002

Originally, the Vibe was going to cost less, and rumor has it that GM is PO'ed that Toyota cut the Matrix price so much. Now GM NEEDS to go cheaper as well.

shrique · February 2002

But I like the look of the Vibe better than the Matrix. Of course because of the plastic body cladding I only like it in the silver color. All the rest look kinda strange with the charcoal plastic.

shrique

badtoy · February 2002

with body-colored cladding. That's the only I'd order it, but it looks pretty slick that way.

You should read the slam on the Pontiac GT-R SEMA showcar in the latest issue of Sport Compact Car. They had absolutely no mercy in pointing out the folly of giving a non-performance version of an American economy car the same name as one of the most feared performance cars on the planet - The Skyline GT-R.

rbleland · March 2002

...on this topic, anyway. About 10 days ago I was posting regarding my dilemma over P5 vs. Matrix. I have now made at least one decision - as good a car as the P5 is, I am not getting it. We all purchase for our reasons/priorities; and in my case I need "utility with sport", rather then "sport with some utility" - thus I will either get the Matrix XR - or I am also now looking at/testing the Impreza 2.5 TS sport wagon. The TS is more money, but the AWD and 165 hp/166torque is very nice. Not wishing to offend any of you P5 gearheads out there - the P5 is a great car for the money; it just was not for me this time.

Tup · March 2002

As an owner of a 98 Subaru Forester S and a 2003 Toyota Matrix I may be able to help a little. The first thing I must say is that our Subaru has been less reliable than I would like. True it was one of the first Forester's produced but we have replaced wheel bearings, struts, alloy wheels, all brake rotors/pads, battery and just yesterday, a $300.00 job to replace a faulty speedometer electronic thinggy in the transmission. All this with only 88,000KMs.

Thus the reason we steered toward Toyota for the Matrix.

mp5freak · March 2002

Great to hear you found the right car for you. As much as I love my P5, no car is for everyone. Keep us all posted about your experiences!

rbleland · March 2002

...for the replies above. Tup - appreciate your comments and I know that Subie's are more costly to fix when things go wrong - sounds like you have had more than your share on the Forester. We did own a '97 Sub. Outback Legacy wagon a few years ago and my wife hated it (boring, un-pretty and no fun). She has a '99 Solara Coupe w V6 now and loves it - absolutely no problems w the Solara. After we got rid of the '97, I heard it had major engine problems that Subaru fixed under warranty. Still, the stats seem really good on Subies for owner satisfaction, would repurchase, etc (as they are on the Toyotas also). mp5freak - you have a super car in the P5 no doubt about it. As I am backing out of a 4 year lease on a 2000 4Runner, the Toyota is a lot easier for me to do, the "dog space" is better and I like the Matrix. I have not actually seen the indigo ink blue XR 5 spd. that is coming in (with my name in #1 spot) but it should be here in day or so. I'll let you know if I do it or not. Cheers.

sunbyrne · March 2002

I looked at the Impreza TS wagon when I was looking into the P5. Great car--the back seat was too small for a rear-facing baby seat with base, though, and I couldn't see spending the extra money for AWD here in flat and snowless Texas. But I'd certainly not claim that my P5, which I do love, is really any better a car than the Impreza. No matter what you decide, hope it works out to suit your needs!

rbleland · March 2002

Appreciate your comments! After driving the Matrix XR 5 spd. today; have decided not to do the Matrix at all!!! Main reasons: 1. lack of torque at lower revs (would get tiring IMO); 2. poor rear visability on backing up; 3. red gauges hard to see; 4. I find steering wheel close to dash; and 5. space behind rear seats for big dog no better than in Impreza TS. Driving the TS after I had previously driven the base model Matrix, has, I think, spoiled me for the Matrix smaller, higher reving engine. I live in south, central B.C. (we get wet, slick snow/rain)so the AWD and handling of the TS would be nice; together with the torquier engine. I think I would go back to the P5 over the Matrix now; but I really want to work on TS deal.

matrix2003 · March 2002

welcome to the club, the "P5 Club". he he

riopelle · March 2002

Good call on the TS - it was my second choice, but

a. I decided if i was going to buy a subie it would have to be a WRX (next time!)

b. I wanted cruise and a sunroof since I do a lot of summer highway driving.

c. I don't "need" AWD - It is nice though, and up in Canada...

I saw the Matrix in person for the first time last weekend - looks are subjective but eeeewww! Best I can figure someone thought "What if we crossed a RAV4 with a Celica for people who want both?" But it pales next to either. I like my P5 even more now.

rbleland, let us know if you get the TS. Good luck.

rbleland · March 2002

...for the posts above. For me, it is now clearly between the 2.5 TS Impreza and the Protoge5. I am now trying to sell privately or have someone assume lease on my 4Runner, so it will probably take a couple weeks. I have firmly rejected the Matrix (guess I really didn't fit the demographic anyway, as I am a 57 yr.old male). I redrove the P5 on Sat. and it is hard to argue with the value/fun for the money it offers. I will continue to look at the TS also, for the AWD and stronger engine. I had a rule about not liking cars where the torque is less than the HP, and I should stick to my rules. Additionaly, the P5 in Canada is now available in white (thats good). You really have to drive/compare more than 1 or 2 times to be sure; and it doesn't hurt to stand back and think about a while also. I'll update later if I have more news!! PS - the WRX would great, but $ too great for 2nd car.

vilainefemme · March 2002

You mentioned $1700 in discounts, please do tell. I plan to join the P5 club on Wednesday.

Plus are you going to change your handle when you get your new car?

vf

matrix2003 · March 2002

Sorry for not specifying earlier how I arrived at the rebate amount. This package was pretty specific for me, so you might or might not find a similar deal. But anyway, (as of previous post date) Mazda had a $750 rebate on all P5s, an additional $500 auto show discount for the Chicago area, plus a $400 college grad rebate. (Total discount is actually $1650) If these incentives aren't currently available, just wait a few weeks, I'm sure something else will turn up!! Hope this helps!

As far as the SN, I'm not sure....I do have to admit that the name "Matrix" sounds a little cooler than "Protege". I'll have to think about that one....

vilainefemme · March 2002

Thanks for the information, matrix2003. So the $750 rebate is just a regular one, country-wide or whatever? How did you hear about it? I'd hate to insist on getting it and then find out that it's not applicable here. I do have the $500 auto show "coupon", and I wish I also had the college grad discount, but I was done with school three years ago.

vf

matrix2003 · March 2002

As far as I know the $750 rebate is nationwide, but might have expired on 2/28. Many times, these rebates are extended, or if not, will probably be reintroduced in a short time. Re: the college grad rebate, it turns out that you can also be currently enrolled as a graduate student and qualify. I'm not sure if you could enroll in a 1 credit community college course and still qualify?? He he..:)

vilainefemme · March 2002

(cross-posted in the Mazda rebates forum and the Mazda Protege5 forum)
Woohoo! I just called Mazda this afternoon (1-800-222-5500) and they confirmed the $750 rebate for me (Milwaukee area). It's available until April 1 and only if you have your own financing. So definitely call if you're interested. Plus, the lady was super nice in giving the information out, I sort of expected them to be hesitant about it. Now I can buy the fully loaded version!

vf

sunbyrne · March 2002

Went to a Ford dealer today to check out the ZX5 and hit a Toyota dealer to check out a Matrix. (Note: I own a P5, but I had my wife's car so that was a secret.) The ZX5 is only sorta a competitor for the Matrix and P5 and hasn't been mentioned much, and now I know why. Someone please tell me why again people are excited about the Focus? It wasn't awful, but I thought both the Matrix and my P5 are better in virtually every respect.

Anyway, I drove a 6-speed Matrix XRS. It wasn't slow or anything, but that has got to be the most gutless 180-hp engine ever. It certainly did not feel faster than my P5.

After driving it, I have to agree with one of the common comments here: the P5 is for people who want sporty, the Matrix is for people who want a small minivan. It drives better than a minivan, but even the XRS didn't have the sporty feel of the P5.

I did really like some of the things on the Matrix, though, like the hard plastic back and how flat the rear seats folded. It's definitely bigger than the P5. Ride is quieter, too, no doubt about it. I kinda liked the high-mounted shifter, which I though was very smooth also. Nice full-sized spare.

I didn't care for the minivan-like high seating position, but what I really hated, and I mean HATED, were the gauges. Holy crap are they ugly, but more importantly, hard to read. The designer who did that dash needs to be taken out and smacked upside the head. Normally I don't feel real strongly about the dash gauges, but man...

Not a bad car at all. One helluva lot better than the Focus I drove, but I wouldn't trade my P5 for it. Other than the dash, though, I bet my wife would.

bluong1 · March 2002

"Someone please tell me why again people are excited about the Focus? It wasn't awful, but I thought both the Matrix and my P5 are better in virtually every respect."

I haven't drove the ZX5 but last year we did a testdrive of the ZX3 when me and my friend was shopping for her car. I was also unimpressed by the Focus. For those who are curious, she bought a Saturn.

Bruno

sunbyrne · March 2002

The ZX5 is just the four-door version of the ZX3. I was actually really surprised, since I've heard so many good things about the Focus. Just totally underwhelming.

maltb · March 2002

"For those who are curious, she bought a Saturn."

Geez, I didn't realize the Focai were that bad...

Tup · March 2002

I own a Matrix and yes the guages do take a little getting used to but with time they are fine. The biggest thing is that the readout starts at 6:00 on the clock instead of the more common 8 or 9:00 oclock....so when you are doing 60 it looks like it would be 40. As I said...you get used to it.

As for the XRS and power.....it's all at 6000 RPM's. You wouldn't notice it unless you were winding the engine more than your every driving instinct tells/wants you to. Under normal reving and shift points...it would feel the same as the base 130hp engine.

I have driven a protege 5 and find not much difference between the two. The only thing would be that Mazda in general tends to have a little more torque at lower RPM's than Toyota engines. The flip side I guess is that the Matrix does do better in gas mileage than the Protege 5. I also prefer the higher driving position.

I think they are good competitors....both good but different enough to suit different tastes.

rbleland · March 2002

In post #135 I was unsure between the P5 and Subie TS wagon (the Matrix having been eliminated previously). And the winner is ....... the Subie Impreza 2.5 TS Sport Wagon in black!!! The extra power/torque, AWD and safety won out for me over the P5 (remember I live where it can snow, rain and get "black ice" so the AWD is a better choice on that alone). Anyway, I am sure I came to the correct answer for me and I only hope that future maintenance/servicing, etc. will prove me right. At this early stage, all I can say is that I love the way it handles and I love the power (think what the WRX must be like!!). I got to drive the first break-in miles (did 200kms or 124 miles) today on paved, lightly-used, mountain road - and it was a blast. Thanks for the feedback and I'll probably move over to the "Impreza" topic in "station Wagons" for future updates. Have fun!!

jiggerz201 · March 2002

and I love it. It is a great car. Especially at the price. To drive it, it feels like a car $5000 more. It is solid and peppy. I'm very glad I chose it over the Matrix, with all due respect to Matrix owners.

phankane · April 2002

I had to look down at a P5.

Toyota Matrix vs. Mazda Protege5

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