Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

uga91 · July 2003

I see nothing wrong with either. We bought a Chrysler because of the looks, yes, but because of the discounts offered by Chrysler and the previous good experience we had with our Chrysler dealer. My brother, OTOH, is probably a very typical Odyssey owner. He did not buy an Odyssey because he tested out all the choices and decided the Honda gave the best value and feature content for the money. He bought an Odyssey because since he and his wife graduated from college, they have bought nothing but Hondas. They each had Civics, now they have an Accord and an Odyssey. I think a lot of Odyssey owners are like this. They think Hondas are the best and another brand won't even be considered. If that's the way you are, then fine by me--to each his own.

robr2 · July 2003

"They think Hondas are the best and another brand won't even be considered."

That is brand loyalty and is the holy grail of companies no matter the product. It explains why my FIL has owned 1 Elite, 1 Mustang, 1 Taurus, 3 Crown Vics, and 1 Windstar since sometime in the late 70's. He won't even look at another brand - not even within the Ford family. It explains why people are Pepsi or Coke drinkers (nothing explains Dr. Pepper drinkers IMHO) and why I will only buy Q-Tips and Hebrew National franks.

uga91 · July 2003

You are absolutely correct. I have never owned a Dodge or Chrysler car, but our current van is our 3rd Chrysler (ok, the first was a Dodge). The last couple of times we got a new van, I looked at others, but bought the Chrysler. We also have a Saturn--it is our 3rd Saturn as well. But, are not stuck on these two brands only like some Honda owners are. Over the last 12 years, I've had cars from 5 other companies as well. But, I am loyal to some things--like Coca Cola.

hayneldan · July 2003

I wonder if the cronic compainers on this board have ever had a bad meal or an appliance that didn't work right(be it made in the US or Asia). I have, and I've been able to deal with it. Some posters post like the only bad experience they have had is with one of the brands in this thread. If so, they are very lucky to have had no problems with Friends, School, Relatives, Jobs, Children, Wives or Husbands, any Homes, Food or Appliances, Except for the ONE van they choose to rag on even though it's a several year old model.I am certain that each of the manufacturers try to improve their products from year to year while trying to hold the line on price. Every employee US, Canadian and Asian would like to get a raise every year. How would the CC handle this if they were the CEO of that company? Steve, I'm trying not to flame anyone,but,the CC's are not getting the big picture.

jlewelling1 · July 2003

Huh? What are you talking about? Take a Xanax man....

I am a CC (Chrylser Complainer!) only because I have had a very, very bad experience with a Chrysler Van and have found, from both data and anecdotal reports, that my experience is fairly common for DC van owners.

While the van is an older model now (1996), it started out bad with a new head gasket a 500 miles and has continued to be bad throughout my ownership of the van.

I wish someone had warned me about the very poor quality of DC vans before I purchased mine!

As for other problems--see my posts under "Daughters vs. Sons--Which are better?"

impact01 · July 2003

Its not the people per se. Magazines like consumer reports time and again bad mouths the so called american brands based on their data.
For those who've had bad experiences with the domestics, this only reinforces their opinion.

As a owner of a reasonably reliable T&C at 90000 miles (has cost less to maintain than the Toyota I have), I also think Chrysler dropped the ball with their latest 01 redesign. T&C Limited was (note "was", not anymore, that title goes to 04 Sienna Limited IMO) the most luxurious van, but guess what, the second row seats are still FIXED!!!. A Ody EX-L is way too plain for my tastes, but the seats move fore and aft. At this stage this is a must for me. On top of it, things about the Ody that are more attractive are (1) Turning Radius (2) 5 Speed Tranny and (3) longer life coolant etc. A BIG negative IMO for the ODY is that, it really rides rough and noisy too, compared to the T&C. Added with the Honda reputation for reliability, I was willing to put up with the lack of comfort!. Thank God, 04 Sienna is here with all the features and comfort too! I wish Chrysler would get rid of some of the gimmicky features like the white faced gauges, jewelled tail lights (LOL) etc and concentrate on distinctive quality features such as their power sliders, lift gate etc. For a van that is so smooth with upscale interior, they certainly could do better than what they're doing now.

lfike · July 2003

about the above post....Stinkin Dell computer froze up.
Bet it wouldn't have done that if it had been a
Honda/Dell computer!

If it had been a Chrysler/Dell ....well...It probably wouldn't have started period!

You guys need to relax.

stever · July 2003

I just finished a Hebrew National hotdog for lunch :-) When I get fountain drinks I stick to my Diet Cokes, but I do tend to put an inch of Dr. Pepper in there.

I personally think the DC vans look better than most any other van out there. My brother's Caravan is certainly a comfortable cruiser and it's been reliable. My '89 Voyager was great on trips (did one 12,000 miler in it), but it wasn't as reliable as it should have been.

I only have 30 minutes in an Odyssey and I thought it offered a lot of bang for the buck. My wife doesn't care for them and thinks she'd get cramped riding shotgun on our road trips in one, but that's based on the showroom, not real life.

Different strokes. It does sound like the Odyssey will get some revamping to make it "spiffier", at least at home: Honda on a roll with US-market SUVs, needs new models in Japan (just-auto.com)

Steve, Host

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Psych!
Just kidding :-)
The Odyssey looks the best, especially with chrome fender trims and chrome rocker panels and wood trims :-)
But really, though, we all have different tastes.

Now as far as the statement "most people who buy the Big 3 are poor", that did not come from me.
But I do think in general that most people who buy a D/C van do not buy a T&C Limited. They buy vans that cost about $16-18K, and we know the Odyssey or Sienna vans are not under $24K.

uga91 · July 2003

Actually, Kia's sales of its Sedona are up 44% so far this year. Honda Odyssey sales are up about 1% and DC sales are down about 5% so far. Somebody must like the way Sedona looks. Of course, DC still outsells Honda, Kia, Mazda, and Ford combined--with room to spare. Also, you are not going to buy a Town & Country or Grand Caravan for the $16-$18k figure you mention. Those start (read: stripped) around $20k and quickly move up from there. Caravans and Voyagers, yes; Town & Country and Grand Caravans, no way. Local dealers here (Atlanta) advertise Odyssey LX for about $22,500 and EX for about $24,500.

stever · July 2003

I think people like the looks of that Sedona warranty a lot!

Steve, Host

tomtomtom · July 2003

"Most people with "enough" money will buy something other than from the "Big 3"

Ok, we DC Vans owners are not poor just didn't have "enough" money to buy an Ody...

When money is no object people don't care if the car can last 10 years or not because when money is no oject they can change car every year.

By the way, do you know why some people prefer a Corvette instead of a Boxster?

lfike · July 2003

pre 67 corvette, I agree. Thereafter...I'd go with the Boxster anyday.
Tom I notice you drive a Ford. DO you also own a DC?
My better half drives a 2003 Odyssey. I ordered a cheap Ford Ranger (2003)...I couldn't pass it up...I prefer a Toyota or to wait for the Honda truck next year but my pocketbook says "watch it buddy!" know what I mean?
Ford is offering $3000 back...they will match the 1,000 I put down and being a military type guy..an additional 750!= 4750 in rebates!!!!
I also qualify for the Ford x plan which sales them at or close to invoice....and you wonder why there is no resale in domestics? But hey...I'll just run this truck into the ground at this price...I just hope it lasts.....at this price it's worth the gamble.
I saw in a previous post where one person said they wouldn't buy the Odyssey because of the magic seat??????????????????????????????????????
They prefer to "remove their seats" when they need to??? I guess we all do different things for exercise.
Last..tomtomtom ....yea I know I'm long winded....I still think your taking Andrew the wrong way...He's a class guy that simply likes/loves the Odyssey!...We love ours too.
Steve....I agree...that warranty from Kia is a really big selling point!...my question is what happens down the road should the vans start falling apart and the company can no longer afford to fix them and they go out of business....
That's one of the few things that scare me about the Korean makers...though it can happen to any of them.

uga91 · July 2003

Steve--I agree that the warranty has been a big selling tool. However, the warranty has been around as long as the van has. Therefore, if sales are up 44% over last year, then it must be more than the warranty selling them--because the folks who bought last year got the same warranty.

lfike--You must be referring to me and not wanting the fold away seat and preferring to remove the seat when I need room. Either I did not explain myself fully or you misunderstood. I said I have 3 kids. I use the rear seat every day. I always need my rear seat. It is rare when I need to remove it. My point was that a single piece--i.e, fold all of it or fold none of it--is worthless to me as I will need some rear seat. My Chrysler has the split folding/split removable rear bench. Meaning on trips, I can remove half of my seat for more storage and have half of the seat for seating a child. A wholly fold away seat is worthless to ME. Now, if I could fold away half of the seat, then fine--I would love it. Bring it on. I believe the new Sienna has this. Chrysler vans in 2004 will have fold away third rows. If it is not split folding, then it will be useless to me and I would not want the van--just as I don't want the Odyssey the way the seat is now. It's not what I do for exercise.

Finally, I'm not here to defend Kia; but, you obviously know nothing about them. They are going nowhere. Each of the last few years have been new record sales years. Through May 2003, Kia had sold over 93,000 vehicles. Compare that to this time last year when they only sold about 82,000 vehicles and you will see they are stronger than ever when most automakers are struggling to stay even. Sales of Sedona are up 44%, sales of Odyssey are up 1%, sales of Sienna are down slightly and sales of DC brand vans are down about 5%. Add that the 2004 Sportage will be based on the award-winning Elantra and the next Spectra will also be based on the Elantra and quality of the whole line should go up a good deal. But enough about Kia.

lfike · July 2003

uga91 said about the magic seat:
I guess Honda has fooled enough people into thinking it is a good feature, though.

Fooled enough people?

you said:
Finally, I'm not here to defend Kia; but, you obviously know nothing about them. They are going nowhere.

"They are going nowhere" ...you said that, not me!

Maybe the problem we have here is that you don't re-read your post prior to posting and it confuses some of us. I've done that!

Your comment above concerning the "split seat" is now understood...I do appreciate your explaining that one.
I don't think Honda was fooling anyone with their magic seat.....if so, why are all of the auto makers following and expanding on the great idea?

I also think that Edmunds rating the Sedona as a runner up to the Odyssey has also helped their sales. I bet if you took a look at how many "hits" Edmunds takes on it's site it has to be in the quadzillions! How many hits do they receive a month Steve?
interesting:
A good while ago on TV a executive from GM was asked who they feared the most concerning competition from Toyota and Honda...his reply was: "neither, we fear Hyundai".
Hyundai is really taking a toll on the 8k - 12k price range.

Who would you say has the highest resale value of those mentioned above.
Thanks

tomtomtom · July 2003

Yes, I had a 1990 Lebaron a few years ago that reached 120K without any problem but sold it before I moved to CA and now I have a 2001 T&C Ltd.

tomtomtom · July 2003

I agree with uga91, a bench magic seat is useless if you need to carry 5 people all the time. I think the reason why magic seat is so popular is that a lot of people don't really need the magic seat to carry people. That's other reason why SUV is taking away minivan's overall sales.

uga91 · July 2003

[you said:
Finally, I'm not here to defend Kia; but, you obviously know nothing about them. They are going nowhere.

"They are going nowhere" ...you said that, not me!]

You're right. What I should have said was "Kia is not going away" instead of "going nowhere." Sorry.

[don't think Honda was fooling anyone with their magic seat.....if so, why are all of the auto makers following and expanding on the great idea]

Honda did not invent this feature. Look at any full size GM station wagon of the 1970's and you will find a magic folding rear seat that disappears into the floor.

lfike · July 2003

I didn't say Honda invented it! I was around in those days...I for one know they were in the station wagons of yesteryear (I sat on them!).
I must say that Honda made it more comfortable and safer.

Well everyone,,,,tis my last post. God Bless everyone here.

Grandpa
Lou

stever · July 2003

Last I heard we were running around 2 million unique visitors a month around here. Don't know how that translates into "hits." More interesting though, is that our visitors spend lots more time here than elsewhere.

Good point about the Sedona, Uga91. Pricing/bang for the buck has to be moving Kia's sales too. 44% sales growth is huge and Kia must be giving the other van manufacturers heartburn.

Steve, Host

jminor · July 2003

Hey, I'm in the Atlanta area and would love to know which dealer(s) advertise the Odyssey LX for $22,500. The best quote I have so far is $23,800. Thanks!

hansienna · July 2003

One son has 2001 Ody EX, another son 2002 GC Sport. Ody has double cargo space and easily increases but each son has 3 children. As with uga91, the Magic Seat has very little value with 3 children. The GC Sport is quieter and smoother riding than the Ody EX.
    The nice triple zone temperature of the 02 GC Sport gives my son, his wife, and the passengers the ability to each have the preferred temperature. The overhead console with compass / outside temperature and trip computer is another nice feature not on the Ody as are the lighted controls on the doors and the superior sound system.
    IF DaimlerChrysler can overcome the reliability issue, they will continue to sell more minivans than the next 2 or 3 brands combined.
    The Sienna is now the greatest threat to Dodge/Chrysler as it contains all the nice features of every minivan and has Toyota reliability. Honda will probably be smart and add all the nice features of the Sienna and Chrysler/Dodge and remain #2 in sales as Toyota does not have the capacity to build enough Sienna to surpass Chrysler or Honda.
    However, Toyota has the entire market spectrum covered and does not rely on the Sienna as much as Chrysler/Dodge rely on their minivans.

uga91 · July 2003

That post a few days ago was referring to a Gwinnett Place Honda ad they ran last weekend. Today's ad does not mention the prices of any particular model. It says "0 Down & 0% APR on all Hondas...even Pilot and Odyssey...sale ends July 7." I have not scoured the whole paper yet to know what the others are saying right now (today). You should get a good deal...with the new Odyssey about to come out, dealers around here should be willing to move them out. You ought to go visit Hayes Chrysler in Lawrenceville if you want an honest, easy buying process. That's where I bought my last to vans and they are great to work with. Go out 316, exit onto 120, go right and they are on the left across from Gwinnett Medical Center. $23,800 would buy more features on a GC/T&C than you'll get on the Odyssey LX you're shopping for! Good luck.

jminor · July 2003

Ha! Thanks for the info but that's the dealership where I was informed about the 0% only applying to MSRP. I believe the fine print says something like "financing may affect final offer" or something to that effect.

pootdu · July 2003

I'm interested in the 3rd row fold down seat. Is it a better investment to purchase an 03 odessy or wait for the 04 caravan.

bdaddy · July 2003

"IF DaimlerChrysler can overcome the reliability issue, they will continue to sell more minivans than the next 2 or 3 brands combined."

DC (makers of a fine MV) needs to figure out how to sell vans and make a profit. How long can a company survive by discounting their margins to the point that enables them to have record sales and still post a loss? Which company would you rather own stock in - the sales leader that reports a loss, or the #2 or #3 company in sales with profits? Take away the discounts and sell DCs at a price that enables the corporation to make a profit and sales figures would turn.

crunch · July 2003

After 32 months, 39,000 miles and 29 separate non-maintenance service visits, my wife traded her 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan ES for a new Odyssey EX - L. Even though she really loved the GC, she was afraid to drive it anywhere. Our local dealer pretended to be sympathetic and made his best offer to get her into a new 2003 GC and invited us to shop for a better deal. I don't think that he could have made any offer she would have taken because, in the end, Chrysler would have the money and would have been rewarded for their lack of overall quality.
The Honda may or may not be a better vehicle. Only time will tell.
At least she now has a nice van that she isn't afraid to drive.
My initial impression of the Honda is that I much prefer the way it drives and handles. It IS NOT as quiet. It seems to have better acceleration and the back seats are more comfortable.

uga91 · July 2003

Any luck on your search yet? Have you tried another brand of van as well? I put you in a category of buyers who want an Odyssey but do not want to pay the admission price. This is evidenced by the fact that you went shopping and got a price, but left without the van thinking you ought to be able to pay less than that. A second group is the group that wants an Odyssey, but before buying one, that person tries another van just to be sure. I'm sure more often than not, they buy the Honda. But, every now and then, someone will say "If I'm going to pay this much, I'd better make sure there is not another van I like more for maybe even less money." This is probably the smartest shopper no matter what it is you are shopping for. The best way to get the best deal on any vehicle is to not be married to it where no other vehicle will do. That makes the third group--the group that will only consider the Odyssey. My brother is in this group. When they decided it was time to buy a mini van, they did not go and try them all out and shop around and research the internet. They went to the same salesman at the same Honda dealer they bought their last three Hondas from and bought their Odyssey. Who knows if he got a great deal? He got the van he wanted and no other would do. Whichever category anyone falls in here, it's great for Honda to have the reputation they do. Any other manufacturer would love to be like this. Even though DC sells three times as many vans as Honda, I'm sure many of the purchases were made simply due to pricing considerations and fleet sales. That being said, if you're shopping Odyssey, it certainly would not hurt to check out the competing DC van, IMO.

jminor · July 2003

Part of the reason I'm in no hurry is that I REALLY like what I've seen (on paper) of the new Quest. I know the Nissan will be more expensive so it will probably come down to just how much less I can get the Odyssey - if I go that route. Ruled out the DC's because I want the folding seat - will probably remove the middle seats more or less permanently too. This whole size issue is dog-related!

andrewtran71 · July 2003

First of all, no offense intended on what I write.
Second, why did you move to California? Job related? You like it there?

My sister is moving there because her husband could not find a job in Dallas. My brother moved to California just because he hated Oklahoma.

Do they offer more discounts on T & C in California vs. Odyssey? Gotta keep it on topics:)

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Yeah, man, people who prefer the Corvette over the Boxter are out of their God-loving-minds :-)
No offense. And it's not what I know, just what I think.
Uh, but anyway, I think people who prefer the T & C over the Odyssey for the same exact price are out of their minds too. That's what I think.
And I thought I was nuts?

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Yeah, magic is good. I wouldn't mind if the Odyssey had two magic seats, one on the 3rd row and one on the 2nd row--like the new Quest, except much better looking:-)

andrewtran71 · July 2003

More features are just better than less features. Some of us don't want to spend the extra money for them (like the Sienna XLE Limited), but more is better here.
I hardly ever use the magic seat feature, but I have used it in the past and it is handy.

andrewtran71 · July 2003

The Sienna kicks the T & C butts anyday and anywhere. No contest.

tomtomtom · July 2003

yep, it is the job thing and I prefer to move back to NY. I am glad someone invented Directv. Ody was a hot item in CA back in 2001 when I was looking for a minivan. Couldn't even get one to do a test drive so I didn't buy one. Also, I wanted leather (needed for easy clean up) and Ody didn't have that option then. Did I mention I hate light color cars?

I personally wouldn't buy a Corvette either but it does have a better 0-60 than the Boxster. And for styling, I hate them both but some people found the vette more appealing than the
Boxster and vice versa.

stever · July 2003

I think we can chalk this one up as a "win" for DC fans:

2003 Vehicle Dependability Study (pdf file - see the last page)

I'm rather enamored of the #1 finisher myself, since I have its twin.

Steve, Host

andrewtran71 · July 2003

Well, that's interesting on the minvan segment.
Mercury and Plymouth? I thought they were among the worst for reliability by CR? I guess I was wrong. What a shock for me.

uga91 · July 2003

It says "2003 Vehicle Dependability Study" yet it lists cars that have not been sold for years. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing the Plymouth Voyager ranked 2nd, but it has not been a "Plymouth" since, what, 1999? There also have been no Plymouth Breezes, Chevrolet Prizms or Acura Integras sold for quite a while, either.

crkeehn · July 2003

is a study of 2000 model year vehicles to see how reliable they are after they have been in service a while. Like the CR Frequency of Repair ratings, they study long term reliability rather than Initial Quality.

jlewelling1 · July 2003

This must be based on current cars on the road. Most 2000 DC vans are already junked by now and their owners are too ashamed of them to answer a survey.

Actually, 2000 is four years into the DC van model cycle, so maybe they did work the bugs out of them. They evaluated how many problems per hundred cars. Given my 1996 voyager, I would have thought they would have evaluated how many hundred problems per car.

badgerfan · July 2003

DC must have built 99 of every 100 minivans problem free and put all the problems into yours. My '96 has been fine, so I guess I got one of the other 99.

fezo · July 2003

Well, one thing it isn't is consistent with Consumer Reports. The DC vans, as well as the Villager did not fare that well in CR. Sienna did. Odyssey did.

I have no idea how big the sample is for J.D.Powers and at times their reports seem way out of whack but take them for what they are - one consumer satisfaction survey.

stever · July 2003

"no idea how big the sample is"

Seems like this is a chronic complaint about the CR reliability ratings too. JD Power at least has a "national" base to select from rather than just subscribers.

But I'm still mad at CR for steering me wrong on a canoe purchase in 1973 :-)

Steve, Host

uga91 · July 2003

I have noticed on many boards here in TH that if any brand of car other than Honda wins an award or does well on a survey or something, the results are always trashed for one reason or another. Here it is [Well, one thing it isn't is consistent with Consumer Reports. The DC vans, as well as the Villager did not fare that well in CR. Sienna did. Odyssey did]. Had Odyssey been number one, then this poster would not have said [I have no idea how big the sample is for J.D.Powers and at times their reports seem way out of whack but take them for what they are - one consumer satisfaction survey.] We would have been told that this is yet another way to prove that Honda is the best. Typical. Go Plymouth!

crkeehn · July 2003

When the Japanese first started importing the minipickups into the United States, CR reviewed one and tore it apart. They couldn't understand why anyone in their right mind would want a small pickup which couldn't carry a full sheet of plywood.

fezo · July 2003

Hey, enjoy your Plymouth.

J.D. Powers receives their funding from domestic automakers; Consumer Reports from subscribers. Who do I think has more objectivity?

I won't deny being a big Honda fan. Not only do they work well but after two years the van still holds almost all of its value. But ya know, if you count red circles in GR the Toyota actually did better. Heck, if back in the 02 model year Toyota offered a Sienna the size of the current one I;d likely have bought it.

Go Plymouth? Already gone I fear. Yeah, I know - you can buy the same thing but call it a Chrysler or Dodge.

stever · July 2003

Chrysler/Dodge is a German company!

Sounds like JD Power will study anything for anyone, for a price:

"Today, the firms clients include numerous Fortune 500 firms, as well as virtually every vehicle manufacturer and importer conducting business in the U.S. market."

(Actually it sounds like they do the studies and then sell the results).

Steve, Host

andrewtran71 · July 2003

German company---sure Steve, but what kind of engine do they use? German engine? Or the same old Chrysler/Dodge engine?

uga91 · July 2003

I don't have a Plymouth because your later statement was correct--Plymouth went away years ago. Even the models sold today as Dodge/Chryslers are not like the Plymouths of then as the 2001 re-engineering/redesign changed all that.

None of this changes the fact that you never would have come here and said the first word about sample size or conflicting studies had Honda been number 1. You know it--don't deny it. If any brand other than Honda wins an award or does well, it does not count because we all know that no other car company in the world can come even close to matching the automotive excellence that is Honda, right? The same people that say this report means nothing for DC vans will also be the first people to say that this report proves Kia is junk because they came in last. Even though the Kia lineup of today does not match the lineup in question in this report. Either this report proves something or it does not.

Finally, I like JD Power over Consumer Reports because CR uses subscriber input. JD Power uses buyers input. The difference is that when I bought my van last spring, I got a survey to fill out and it will show in the next report. I do not subscribe to CR so they do not care how I feel about my van. My feelings will not be included in the next CR car issue. I'm sure that most people who subscribe to CR believe everything it says. So, many subscribers will buy what they recommend and then report back that it is a great car. If you buy something they do not recommend and anything at all breaks, you will blast the car in the survey. How can cars like the Grand Am be listed as "Insufficient Data" when they sell hundreds of thousands of them each year? Because not that many read CR, that's why.

jlewelling1 · July 2003

What is really remarkable about the survey was the U.S. carmakers--Ford and GMC anyway--have show great gains in quality and reliability. They still trail Toyota and Honda of course, but they have not only surpassed but continue to extend their leads on the European carmakers. Sooner or later people perceptions are going to catch up to reality and people are going to stop paying premiums for European cars like Volvo, BMW and especially Mercedes. Mercedes actually had the lowest or one of the lowest reliability ratings! To own a Mercedes indicates that one has more money than common sense!

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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