VW Touareg SUV

foghorn48 · October 2002

Is this thing traditional body on frame or unibody? Seems like a projected towing capacity like that would require a separate frame, but would hurt onroad manners.

Other concerns: not so sure about the looks of this. I suppose it's in the interest of keeping it familiar, but IMHO it's a bit too close to a jetta/passat/phaeteon/a4/a6/a8. To me these all look nice (un-offensive?), but the look is over done and kinda mundane. Maybe it'll grow on me.

Not to reignite the discussion from the 4runner board, but this is the only thing I consider even a remote competitor for the Toyota. Yes each of these have different strengths, but they both seem to blend the best of on and offroad capabilities. They just accomplish it in different ways. I am a bit concerned about the reliabillity of all of the very complex systems on the VW. As for the Toy, well someone recently brought up the point (intmed99 I think) about the new torsen ceter diff on the 4runner being a bit of an unknown quantity. Is it gear based (more preferable), or some other less reliable system, like a wet clutch? I guess time will tell on both of these.

thor8 · October 2002

To answer you question about Torsen differentials you should not be concerned, Torsen Zexel is a Robert Bosch company and they hold the patent of the design, Torsen stand for torque sensing, it works as a set parallel axis helical gears, made popular by the Audi Quatro and used by the Hummer, is an all mechanical gearing, no clutches, viscuos coupling etc. It costs more than other systems but is better.

JBaumgart · October 2002

Thanks for the links - very informative. The handling really looks impressive - in fact the whole package looks impressive. The roof carrier system looks very cool, and is sure to be imitated.

Foghorn48: of course looks are very subjective, but if the Touareg bears some resemblance to the A4/A6/Phaeteon, most would say that you're paying it a great compliment.

intmed99 · October 2002

BTW, i never questioned the Torsen center diff. It is excellent. It is also on the new Range Rover's center diff.

foghorn48 · October 2002

for the torsen info. Very informative. How about the frame on the Touareg? Body on frame or unibody?

wmquan · October 2002

The Touareg is unibody.

intmed99 · October 2002

I think it is based on the Phaeton platform.

thor8 · October 2002

The touareg is a combination, called subframe, a heavy frame element is incorporated into the body, is the best of both worlds, and no it is not built on the Phaeton, it is a design of its own designed in conjunction with Porsche, is a purpouse built vehicle from the ground up and not a patch job.

VW is very serious about the vehicle performing as a first class off roader, it has a low range and three locking differentials, the Phaeton is also a brand new design but with first class road manners.
To tell the truth the more I read about the Touareg the better it sounds, to the point that I will seriously consider the vehicle, and too bad the V10 is not going to be available rigth away if not I would be first in line.

intmed99 · October 2002

Uniframe...Monoframe (Pathfinder)...etc. We have all seen this nomenclature many times. All means one thing = unibody with structural enhancements. Every unibody, even my old CRV, had stamped steel crossmembers and rails to increase structural strength. The new Range Rover is the same.

In other words, "Uniframe" is more for advertisement to claim, "the best of both worlds." It is not. In off-roading, there is simply no substitute for body-on-frame when going over un-even terrain. A unibody will bend no matter what enhancements you have made to the structure.

intmed99 · October 2002

From the off-roading pics, the Touareg has no wheel articulation at all! Zero. It is only capable because of the traction control and the "clutch-pack" differentials. How long will the clutch-packs last if someone actually off-roads over many years?? Take a look at the Mercedes G500...it has true lockers (GEAR-based). Look at the Range Rover...it's center diff is Torsen (gear-based). How about the Jeep WRangler Rubicon...yup, gear-based lockers (and rear LSD).

On the other hand, take a look at Acura MDX which has clutch packs in the rear diff. You have to change the fluid every 7500 miles...and this is when owners don't off-road at all! Just imagine if someone actually off-roads with the MDX! Just look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee, which has clutch-packs for it's 3 differential (similar to Touareg)...it makes all sorts of noises and the earlier versions had MANY mechanical problems...many had to be replaced after a few off-roading trips!

Clutch-packs don't last long! Most off-roaders avoid clutch-pack limited-slip differential like the plaque! That is why they much prefer Torsen LSD or lockers.

For my money (at that price range), i would get an LX470 or G500. Maybe even the Range Rover (quality is still a question).

thor8 · October 2002

Like I said in post #101 off roading is so selective, when for the sake of an arguement then it is a big factor. Who is going to take a new 50,000$ SUV and rag it in the bundocks? The fact is that 99% of SUV's never see any off road use of significance, maybe once in a while crossing a patch of bad terrain going to the picnic area. VW knowing this fact designed the Touareg with that in mind, for the ocassional use it has all the ingredients needed, since the vehicle is going to spend 99,9% of its time on the HWY why design it for off road use? If is designed for off road use sales will drop as soon as people finds out it is rough because the stiff suspension, all the train noise and vibration and mechanical drag from all those gears.

I have an ML Mercedes SUV and a Mercedes Unimog 406, talk about two extremes, the Unimog is so off road dedicated that for any distance I have to truck it, the transmission has so many gears that at hwy speeds (if you can call 50mph hwy speed) overheats, and is all mechanical, double clutch, 21speed forward and 8 reverse, in worm gear mode it has a 4000 to 1 reduction, will make a 1/4 mile in 5 hours at full throtle (2500rpms on the diesel engine) three locking differentials and four sets of reduction gears at each wheel (portal axels) is really a tractor dressed like a vehicle. Most Mogers are always trying to get more Hwy speed out of their vehicles, the saying goes one contacted one of the Mercedes engineers to find out how he could make his Mog go faster (gearing wise), the engineer replied, if you wanted to go fast why did you get a Unimog.

Talking about frames, I doubt you will find any vehicle in the world with a thicker frame for its size, over 1/2 inch for a vehicle that has a shorter wheel base than my Porsche and it will twist!! The truth is that a monocoque body is stiffer than a frame on body because the uper part of the body acts as a giant truss and is ligther, as long as the attachment points for the major mechanical components are of substance no problem there for that limited use. In fact Mercedes decided to eliminate the frame on the next generation of ML SUV's.

intmed99 · October 2002

However, VW is making this thing out to be a great off-roader. I think it even said that it will compete with Range Rover in off-roading.

I agree with you 100% on consumers not off-roading with their expensive toys.

Well, unibody is not always stronger than frame. I am assuming the Touareg is quite strong. However, if you place one left front and one right rear wheel on a hill, can you open and close the doors on a unibody SUV?? Most unibodies cannot do this. Touareg may be different, but i am waiting to see this.

foghorn48 · October 2002

I was wondering about the frame since the Touareg has such huge torque numbers and an 8000lb towing capacity. With those kind of numbers I would want the traditional body on frame setup, if I ever even came close to that towing limit. Also as for the rigidity of a monoframe/unibody. Jeep GCs have used this for years, but I have heard of several and witnessed at least one blowing out it's rear window from body twist. Also I saw one that couldn't open one of the doors anymore from repeated offroad excurisions torquing the door frame permanently out of wack. I'm sure redesigns (and learning fro others for the VW) will address these issues. Just my 2 cents.

thor8 · October 2002

99, Well I agree with you, unibody is not stronger, the key word is rigid. There is a blatant example in front of our eyes everyday, next time you are on the road observe the 18 wheelers that are pulling this boxed in trailers (the majority) if you look underneath you will notice NO frame, the body of the trailers makes the frame and no sag even fully loaded, next look at the flat beds and the heavy frame underneath (beams), the flat bed is stronger but the covered trailer is more rigid.

48, I am sure if we can think about it, the engineers at VW were burning brains over the structural integrity. Lets not forget that VW was one of the pioneers of frameless construction with the Bettle, they have over 60 years of experience and the rigidity of the VW Bettle is without question, the same car is still being built in Mexico and the design was so good that I know of no improvements needed ever since, ironically it was a Ferdinand Porsche design and 60 years later this vehicle has been designed in conjunction with Porsche, Porsche builds the 911 (frameless) and the same body has been in production for more than 37 years (nominated one of the best designs ever), testament to the design is the fact that the 911 has won more than 20,000 races and the same track car has won the Paris Dakar race (amazing that a race car dominated off road vehicles they arrived 1,2 and 6), the only modifications were taller tires and raised suspension. Something tells me is going to be a way better design than the Jeep Cherokee.

foghorn48 · October 2002

thor you bring up another question. where is this going to be bult? I've heard some bad things about some of the VW products coming out of Mexico, similar to some of the quality issues with the BMW and Mercedes plants in SC and AL.

thor8 · October 2002

It will be built in Germany, you make an interesting point, every German car built in the US or Mexico had a lower quality, starting with the US built Rabbits, cars that gave VW a bad reputation.

rsholland · October 2002

the current issue of CAR, the UK magazine. They have a good and informative road test of the Touareg.

Intmed99 and I recently had a somewhat spirited debate over in the 4Runner forums regarding the Touareg's off road ability and its articulation, or lack there of, as he would point out. In the CAR road/off-road test, there are pictures that clearly point out this lack of articulation. Unlike intmed99, I'm willing to give these "clutch packs" some slack. If and when they prove faulty, as intmed99 predicts, I will hop on his bandwagon, but not before...

Of interest, however, in the CAR article, was mention of an optional off-road package which, besides having more ground clearance, selectively locking front and rear difs, a tire pressure adjustment device, more off-road oriented tires, and will also include "switchable* anti-roll bars" for much greater wheel articulation. It sounds like this will be available the following year, after it's debut.

And, yes, they (CAR) compare it's off-road capability very favorably against the new Range Rover. In fact, they predict it will put a scare in the established* (off-road) stars.

 = CAR's words, not mine.

Bob

foghorn48 · October 2002

FWIW that "spirited" discussion is what got me looking at the Touareg as serious competitor. Tell VW and maybe they'll give you a discount. Up until I read y'alls banter I thought this VW just gonna be another wanna be. Gotta say I'm fairly impressed with on the paper capabilities of it, but I am very concerned about the clutch packs (and the overall complexity of the VW). As far as I know the Jeep GC was the first to use them and they've had horrible reliability issues. I guess it's a good thing that Toyota screwed up the 4runner body cladding, so I can wait and directly compare these two side by side next year.

intmed99 · October 2002

I know that a lot of the newer unibody SUVs can tow quite a bit. However, a lot of these manufacturers don't care what happens to their vehicles after the warranty expires. I still do NOT see how a unibody SUV (uniframe, monoframe, etc.) can hold up towing over 6500 lbs over a long period of time. I just don't see it. Durability is very important. You're asking a lot out of the rear section of the unibody when you tow that much over many years!

Remember, with a unibody, if you bend/warp one section (off-roading, towing, etc.), you are screwed! Because to replace that defective section, you need to CUT the defective sheetmetal and then RE-weld the new sheetmetal...after which, i wonder how strong (integrity, stiffness, etc.) is the rest of the unibody??

For example, of all people, why did Ford design the Ford Explorer to have FRAME?? Why does the Excursion have FRAME?? Why did GMC Envoy have FRAME?? Please note that these vehicles do NOT tow more than the Range Rover or Touareg, but they have frame specifically for towing purposes. In general, unibody is CHEAPER to make than body-on-frame...thus the current trend among SUVs. In addition, unibody's tend to have better crash testing scores because it is easier to design a safety cage. Of course, there are exceptions to this. Why do you think the Toyota 4Runner (3rd gen) and Land Cruiser cost so much...i mean you don't get much relatively in terms of luxury, but they are the class leaders in cost. TLC has no wood and no standard side curtain airbags, yet costs over $50K...compare that to it's luxurious competition and you will see what i mean.

rsholland · October 2002

Complexity is just a way of life these days. You can't ignore it. Every car is a very complex piece of machinery.

As to clutch packs, the jury's still out. The only way you can prove their success or failure is over a long period of time. Also, even if one or several brands may have had problems with them, does not mean the *concept* is faulty; just the execution. It's very possible (and probable) that another brand can and will correct those problems, and offer a durable product. It's happened may times in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

Bob

intmed99 · October 2002

I have not seen one "clutch-pack" that works for a long time. Most OEM limited-slip differential are clutch-packs...good for very light off-roading, but wears quickly (thus, doesn't last long). Like i said above, most off-roaders avoid clutch-packs for this very reason. Gear-based LSD and center diff are the most reliable way to go.

Remember, Acura MDX rear differential (clutches) is made by Bord-Warner. They have a very good reputation. I think they also design the Mercedes ML's traction control system (not sure though). It maybe that they also design the Touareg's system.

intmed99 · October 2002

This is all for discussion, Rsholland...so don't be offended.

Clutch packs are not bad. They are perfectly fine for 99.9% of Touareg drivers because none of them will off-road with any regularity, especially when their SUV costs $70K or something. If they are so bad, then no one would use them. They are fine for limited duty.

Clutch-packs run into a problem during heavy duty off-roading. It is NOT the quality that limits them, it is the DESIGN. Clutch packs simply don't last long if you abuse it.

What i am annoyed is how VW is annoucing that this Touareg will take the off-roading world by storm! Are they nuts? A unibody...that looks like a station wagon more than an SUV. All-independent suspension with TINY & SHORT control arms (no wheel travel). They claim this because they have "locking differentials x 3." I mean i can modify a Toyota Camry and put in lockers front, center, and rear, and be just as capable! Oh yeah, throw in a V10 diesel engine. VW is just trying to "distinguish" this SUV from the crowd (MDX, Highlander, Merc. ML, X5) by claiming this.

VW and Audi doesn't even have a history of making trucks or SUVs!

rsholland · October 2002

I just disagree with you.

In any event, you will not be convinced one bit until a head-to-head showdown occurs here in the United States, so we might as well table the discussion, as that's probably a good 6-9 months off, at best. I don't think I could stand bashing our brains out over this until that occurs.

I take it you either haven't read, or choose to ignore, the European automotive press. They think pretty highly of it, as an off-roader. As to your comments:

<< What i am annoyed is how VW is annoucing that this Touareg will take the off-roading world by storm! >>

They're late to the game and they know it. So, whatever they offer better be impressive.

<< Are they nuts? A unibody...that looks like a station wagon more than an SUV. >>

So...?

<< All-independent suspension with TINY & SHORT control arms (no wheel travel). They claim this because they have "locking differentials x 3." I mean i can modify a Toyota Camry and put in lockers front, center, and rear, and be just as capable! Oh yeah, throw in a V10 diesel engine. >>

If it gets you from point A to point B, who cares how it's done. BTW, it's pretty impressive diesel. I hope it comes over.

<< VW is just trying to "distinguish" this SUV from the crowd (MDX, Highlander, Merc. ML, X5) by claiming this. >>

We'll see...

Bob

intmed99 · October 2002

I have read all the reviews thus far for the Touareg. Unfortunately, European press means nothing to US consumers. Here is a good example: Land Rover Freelander. It is the best selling SUV over in Europe. They simply love it to death! Every year, it is rank at the top for SUVs. It is way more popular to Europeans than the Wrangler to US consumers.

Yet, look at what happens when they start to export the Freelander to our soil...low volume sales. Freelander is ranked near last in every competition (except Car & Driver's competition with Jeep Liberty). It is more of a joke to us (poor quality, poor off-road ability, poor engine power...but decent handling).

However, everywhere in the world, people are praising the Toyota trucks and SUVs (esp. Land Cruiser and Prado).

thor8 · October 2002

About VW not having any experience or history making off road vehicles I would not bet on it, during the war the made the Schwimwagen and during the 70's they made the Iltis for several armies, the Canadian army still uses the vehicle. They can be bougth from NATO surpluss but they are not street legal.

A picture of the VW Iltis.

http://192.9.5.5/~uni/mog/iltis/iltis4.jpg

stever · October 2002

Heh, looks like a cross between a Thing and a Duck.

Steve, Host

rsholland · October 2002

also has a long history of making small to medium-duty trucks in Europe. I don't think they make medium-duty trucks any more, as I just checked their German site, and didn't see any.

Off-roading is off-roading, regardless of where you live. I enjoy reading the European automotive press. I find it refreshing, and it gives a different (and often enlightening & refreshing) perspective not found in US car rags. UK's CAR is a favorite of mine.

Bob

rsholland · October 2002

http://www.AutoWeek.com/cat_content.mv?cat_code=coverstory&loc_code=index&content_code=03697393

foghorn48 · November 2002

I know these are only on sale in Europe, but does anyone have an idea of actual owner impressions yet, say from the euro car press? I'm really interested in this SUV, but I want to hear what Joe public has to say about it, not just VW or the auto press. Fortunately when it gets here they'll have had 6-9 mos to determine if it is a worthy as it seems on paper. Thanks for any links.

rsholland · November 2002

if it is on sale yet in Europe. It should be shortly, however.

Bob

scirocco22 · November 2002

VWVortex has posted the most complete information yet on the Touareg including the official full VWAG press release, model guide and one hundred new pictures.

VWAG press release --complete specs and features: click here.

VWVortex Touareg Model Index: click here.

I want one!! ...too bad they're not offering the 6-speed manual here in the U.S. If they were, I'd be first in line.

--'rocco

dawgpak · November 2002

"Golden Steering Wheel" for the new Volkswagen Touareg, Posted by: kak on Nov 08, 2002 - 11:52 AM.

Link is too long to post here, so I added it at the top of a page I just compiled containing a list of links to the Touareg reviews, articles, tests that I've found so far:

http://www.dawgpak.com/touareg/

Let me know if I missed any good ones!

Also, I'm looking at the Toyota 4Runner and have created a page for it too:

http://www.dawgpak.com/4Runner/

Any thoughts on 4Runner vs. Touareg??

foghorn48 · November 2002

Dawgpak, I'm actually looking at all three of these. I'm actually leaning towards the VW right now, but I've been lusting after a runner for quite some time. I think the new gen is pretty impressive but it missed on a couple points. For me I probably don't need the extreme offroad capability that the runner offers, but would like to have more in that dept than the volvo offers, so I'm impressed by the blending that the VW offers. Especially like the idea of the height adjustable suspension and the shiftable auto tranny on the Touareg. The Runner's drivetrain and Toyota's reputation for reliability impress me as well. As for the Volvo I like the interior treament, especially the third row of seats. The versatility it offers is cool. I'm on no time line so I can wait till the VW comes out and the other 2 have time to prove themselves. Just my few cents worth

hiflyer · November 2002

foghorn48 - Your're not the only one who likes the idea that the XC90 offers a third row seat. However, when I was at the auto show in Boston yesterday, it seemed to me that not only did the third row in the XC90 have very little legroom, but that it pushed the second row so far up that it too had limited space. I'm 6'2", so I didn't even attempt to get into the second row.

I think VW is making the right choice with the Touareg by not squeezing 20 lbs. into a 15 lbs. bag. Having a more spacious second row without the third, one can more routinely accommodate passengers in greater comfort.

It is quite possible that the second row in the XC90 can slide back when the third row is not in use. When it is in use, all I can say is there better be children or very small adults in the second and third rows.

foghorn48 · November 2002

I totally agree with you about the mini third row that is in most of the midsize SUV's. If I had a regular ned for carry more than 4-5 people then I would otp for a full size SUV or (gasp!) a minivan. The appeal of a third row in a midsize is having the option of carrying more people in a pinch for relatively short distances (3 couples going out to dinner, the lake, tailgaiting etc...). With all of the room in the cargo area of most of these vehicles it seems wasteful to me to not have the versatility offered bby the third row.

hiflyer · November 2002

You must have very small friends.:)

wmquan · November 2002

I view having the third row, even a very limited one, as one of those conveniences for the usually infrequent situations where you've got to squeeze everyone in. Sort of a modern-day version of a 2+2 coupe -- a 5+2! I can remember many a time growing up when we'd squeeze into the back. Not comfortable, but beats getting left behind for two trips.

Off-topic, but despite the small accommodations of the XC90's third row, Volvo does not recommend putting child seats there, and there are no top tether anchors as a result. So they're mostly for older kids and small adults.

foghorn48 · November 2002

This is the 1st VW I have ever considered, so I'm not too familiar with alot of the company's products. What does the "VR" in VR6 mean? Is this the same engine that is in the car lineup? If so how reliable/durable is this design? Any inherent problems with the overall drivetrain? How about the V-8 that will be borrowed from Audi? Has VW fixed/addressed their electrical troubles? I'm pretty excited about the prospect of what this SUV can/will offer, but I'm a bit leary of VW on the whole. thanks for any and all info.

Oh, wmquan thanks for having my back. Finally someone else who sees my point about the third row.

scirocco22 · November 2002

Dan-- Essentially the VR6 is VW's designation for their narrow angle V6. First introduced in the early 90s as a 2.8 liter, it was developed primarily to save space using the narrow 15 degree angle and is exceptionally smooth and powerful for its size. This space-saving feature is where the somewhat contradictory "VR" designation comes into play.

Let's see if I can explain it correctly. The "V" stands for two banks of cylinders aligned in a V. The "R" comes from the German word "Reihe" which translates to mean "inline" thus VR6 comes to mean "inline 6 cylinder with a V configuration. Now this sounds contradictory, doesn't it? Well, not really if you look at the design and what the engineers were trying to accomplish because it's a good description of actually what's going on. The engine is really an interactive combination of a V and an inline design. Because of the narrow angle of the V, it allows for the stuffing of 6 cyliners in a package that is not that much bigger than a four cylinder engine with a single compact cyliner head that covers both cylinder banks.

VW has had more than a decade to iron out and correct any flaws in this design so I really don't think we should have much worry with reliability nor durability. It's one sweet engine.

The new 3.2 liter VR6 will also be used in the Phaeton and the R32 Golf but it will be modified for use in the Touareg. It is specifically designed to be used in an off-road vehicle with a modified oil pump, an "adaptive" sump and a revised belt drive.

VW's electrical problems seem to be a thing of the past. I remember with not much fondness, the early VWs which I've owned and the frustrations I encountered pertaining to the electrical systems and components. I don't hear of those things now on modern VWs. My Audi's electricals have been flawless so far.

If you need more information, I have lots of links on Volkswagen history along with realibility/dependability figurues, etc.

--'rocco

nedzel · November 2002

rocco, you are correct that VW has been building it for sometime, but the 2.8 VR6 does have some issues. The MAF sensors and coilpacks often die with a certain degree of regularity. Not cheap to replace either. Gas mileage is relatively poor -- I routinely get in the low 20s in my GTI (which is not a very big car). I'm not sure how close the 3.2 is to the 12-valve 2.8.

The VR6 is a very creative packaging solution, but it does result in some tradeoffs. It is a complex engine. The balance shafts and complex crank required by the unusual configuration undoubtedly result in increased friction -- more moving parts. I'd much rather have a true inline 6 or a proper 60 degree V6, but neither would fit in a GTI. The V10 TDI -- now there's an interesting engine. 500 ft-lbs and still 25+ mpg in something as big as the Touareg.

VW electrical problems a thing of the past? On Saturday my sunroof wouldn't close. I opened up the fuse box, pulled the sunroof fuse, but it looked fine so I replaced it. Then the sunroof worked. On a couple occasions I've had my cruise control stop working, only to have it start working the next day. My bigger concern than that is my 2nd gear synchro. VW has known that this transmission has had problems for years, and done nothing to fix it.

VW has some really compelling cars. I just wish they'd solve these design problems, rather than letting them fester for years before fixing them (e.g., the whole window regulator thing).

scirocco22 · November 2002

Jared-- Thanx for the counterpoint. What year is your GTI?

Yes, although I've been a VW fan for years ...even back to the 60s Bettle I had for a time in high school, --that's right, I'm an old far* ~cries in pain~ -- I don't consider VW the most reliable of brands out there. Durable, maybe, but reliability wise, they aren't going to keep up with the Japanese. But it seems like everytime I own a Japanese car, I always seem to long for another VW. I always miss that certain character they have ...that certain feeling I get when at the wheel. Granted, no VW I've owned has ever been as reliable as the Japanese cars I've had but it seems like I always come back to VW (or a VAG product) after every Japanese car I've owned.

I currently own a year and a half old Audi A4 but what I'm looking at the Touareg to replace is a Subaru Forester I now drive as a "utility" type vehicle. Sure, there are other Japanese SUVs which I could choose from but as I say, I again long for the "feeling" and character of a VAG product.

I still have to imagine that the electrical problems are much less in number and severity than they used to be and the 2.8 VR6 engine doesn't have half as many "issues" now as it did when it first came out. Yes, there will probably always be certain "issues" with VW engines --again, more so than with comparable Japanese engines-- but I probably will always be interested in VWs, never-the-less.

--'rocco

foghorn48 · November 2002

Thanks for your experienced insight. I hope you keep up the discussion so I can learn more. As for the Touareg, I guess time will tell. Fortunately for me time is on my side for my next vehicle purchase.

scirocco22 · November 2002

Dan-- One of my concerns is buying a vehicle in its first year of production or early in the production cycle. So, for me, I would hesitate in buying a Touareg the first year it's available unless it's exactly what I was looking for and I absolutely needed the vehichle immediately. Remember the Ford Escape fiasco? ...maybe the Touareg won't have "issues" in that magnitude but I still have to believe that there will be a few bugs to work out.

So it's probably a good thing that you have time on your side to maybe avoid the first year models if you can. I know some will dispute this theory but statistically, I believe it's traditionally true.

--'rocco

nedzel · November 2002

mine's a 2000 GTI GLX. I've got about 40k miles. So far, I've had to replace the rear shock top mounts -- twice. Replaced coil packs and plug wires. Replaced combined turn signal/cruise control switch. I mentioned the sun roof gremlin. Temperature guage is now intermittent. I'd love a Touareg with the V10tdi motor -- lots of performance, lots of room, good mileage. Unfortunately, not in my budget at the current price of my company's stock :-(

You're right about Japanese cars. My previous car was an '87 Integra 5 door that I bought new. Sold it in 1999 with 130k+ miles. Very reliable car.

rsholland · November 2002

I wonder, once the Touareg gets established, if VW will offer a smaller Touareg-type of vehicle? The Touareg is great, but it is rather pricey. I'd like to see something with a wheelbase around 106" and priced in the mid to upper $20K range?

Keep the trick IFS/IRS suspension and 6-speed dual-range auto & manual trannys, and make the V6 the large engine with smaller engine options available. Cut out a lot of the luxury stuff, and offer cloth seats. I think it would sell like lemonaid on hot summer day...

Bob

wmquan · November 2002

Perhaps if VW doesn't offer it, maybe Toyota will?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-11-10-autos_x.htm

A "mini-4runner" wouldn't quite be the same thing as a mini-Touareg, but if they keep most of the 4runner's drivetrain, not a bad alternative. It'd certainly be an interesting alternative to the Forester / CR-V / RAV4 set.

rsholland · November 2002

* Truck-based SUV a little smaller and cheaper than the 4Runner.

This I knew was coming. Toyota would very much like to ge those Xterra customers. I just hope it's more refined than the Xterra, in terms of running gear.

* Car-based SUV smaller than the RAV4, probably derived from the Corolla Matrix sport wagon.

This may be overkill. Do we really need another car-based mini ute?

* Sport-utility pickup like the Chevrolet Avalanche.

This is new news to me. I hope it's built off the new 4-Runner, and not the larger Sequoia, with its excellent running gear.

Bob

foghorn48 · November 2002

to get a clearer idea of when I might actually see one of these things. The guy didn' have a clue. When I asked about the "Touareg" he started to tell me all about this beautiful new sedan that was gonna be a Mercedes S/BMW 7 killer. Obviu=ously he was talking about the Phaeton, but when I set him straight niether he nor his manager could tell me anymore than I already knew. How do sales-people/dealer managers know less about their own product than I do? Isn't that their JOB? Anyhow anyone else have any more info about debut dates?

hiflyer · November 2002

foghorn48 - The V6 and V8 versions of the Touareg are scheduled to be introduced to the NA market next June. The V10 tdi and V12 models are expected the following year.

Your experience with the VW dealer is common. Last week at the auto show I asked a fairly nice young woman at the VW desk whether brochures were available on the Touareg. (The Porche desk already had some printed material with specifications about the upcoming Cayenne.) She dutifully responded that there was not at this time, but suggested that I should in the meantime check out vw.com and vwvortex web sites for the most up to date info. When I asked about the status of the V10 tdi becoming available, a puzzled look came over her face. She turned to her associate who similarly had no idea what I was talking about. It's too bad they didn't follow their own advice and done a little research outside the corporate meetings they are required to attend.

andy1961 · November 2002

She may have been a model hired to provide some "eye candy" at the show.

AW

P.S. A few years ago, I was at the Photo Marketing Association trade show in Las Vegas. At the Olympus booth, I overheard one of the models asking another which agency she was working for. After turning around to look at the sign above her head, she replied "Olympus." You can make this stuff up.

VW Touareg SUV

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