Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
> and advanced, Porsche-designed (Touareg)
> SUV wannabees may not be bonafied SUV's
The Porsche Cayenne and VW Touareg were both designed to be true off roaders. Or is that not what you meant by them not being "bonafied SUV's"?
mike
(here's the new model:
http://www.vw-utzfahrzeuge.ch/vwnf/nut_lt_kas.jsp)
That platform is also the full-sized ambulance in much of the world because it is rugged and reliable. Besides the Freightliner name, I saw one at the car show in the Benz/Chrysler area with a Dodge grill. Its pretty weird to see a VW truck wearing Dodge badges, but since VW vans have been wearing Mercedes logos for over a decade, and then Benz buying Chrysler, it sortof makes sense.
BTW: Due to a depressed market, VW's sales of trucks has dropped below 1/4 million annually.
But "no reputation or experience building "big" trucks" ???
When your trucks are re-labeled by Mercedes, Freightliner and now Dodge, and your Diesel engines are powering VWs, Mercedes, Audis, Volvos, Toyotas, commercial boats and off-shore racing boats, and your "90 HP" Golf TDI beats Subaru and the Toyota Celica in SCCA Rally racing because Toyota can't match VWs reliability ... I'd recommend doing some research.
Scott, what do you consider big? The VW LT46 has a cargo capacity of 5000lbs and can tow over 4000lbs.
VW has build trucks for 50 years or so.
- D.
Steve, Host
In the US our roads are generally wide and are designed to carry large loads. We look at trucks very differently than the rest of the world does. A personal heavy duty "pickup" truck or a full size SUV can be purchased here for around $30,0000US, with a gas engine, that will tow 12,000 pounds all day long. That's how we define and use a big truck. It's just like the way you might use a high performance German automobile on the autobahn that would be happy running 155mph+ as long as desired (or as traffic will allow).
I should have been more specific when I said VW has no experience building trucks, I meant personal trucks not commercial vehicles. The last personal truck that volkswagen imported to the US was based on the original Rabbit. The US personal truck market is not an easy one to take on. It took Toyota 3 tries to figure out the US market for full size pickup trucks and still is only competing in the light duty market.
I think that the Touareg/ Cayenne is an extremely interesting vehicle, but in my opinion, it's not a truck or a serious tow vehicle.
What did you have in mind? It will tow a 25-ft Airstream comfortably. The car versus truck debate might have made sense 10+ years ago but today we have so much shared design & technology that labels become meaningless.
I agree it is very difficult to get into the US truck market. But the Touareg is an SUV, so many people will buy it the same way they buy an MDX or a Pilot regardless of the fact that Honda does not have the F450 equivalent in their line-up. The main problem with the Touareg is that it is about 6 years too late. VWs market forecasting division should have been fired and replaced 5 years ago, but that is another story.
And with regard to its towing capability, we'll have to see. I wouldn't discount it based on how it looks... Also, don't forget that manufacturers (or their lawyers) are very conservative when it comes to US towing capacity numbers. It is not unusual to find the same vehicle rated at 50% more in Europe than in the US.
- D.
As far as the Touareg goes - is it shipping and are any in the showrooms yet? Is there just that one "tester" in CA? I keep hearing conflicting rumors. Thanks.
Steve, Host
Touaregs will be available both Left & Right Coasts in mid June...Central US a wee bit later...1 V6 and 1 V8 will be delivered, and then they will be allocated based on Annual Planning Volume (APV)probably until August and then we will be able to order direct to Germany via the VIM with deliveries in Calif. in October.
And, with such a long a la carte menu, I suspect this will be the norm...
That's right, which means that (given that planning starts many years before production) 5 years ago they already had spent several years post-NB and post-NewPassat and had nothing to show for as far as the US market is concerned. That would have been the right time to make a change. Instead, things dragged out and all they have now is the Touareg, which, as I said, enters the market way too late. Also too late was the NB convertible, and the microbus will be 2-3 years after the Element and several other cross-overs will have defined the landscape.
Where was the US-size, affordable and practical VW minivan in the 90's? Where is the AWD version of the Jetta, perhaps with slightly raised suspension? They could have easily made 50% of the Forester annual sales with a car like that.
And I don't think anyone is truly banking on the Phaeton rescue-all any longer.
Sales of the Passat and Jetta, VWs bread-and-butter, will slump due to questioned reliability and slowly outdated power and technology at least until the new models come out. So at least for another year, I predict contracting sales in the US when other manufacturers will be picking up. I call that poor market research and planning. Why play catch-up, when you have the capability to produce a segment leader on time (as shown with the Passat release).
- D.
Some great commercials.
The western European market is the most competitive in the world, yet they supply 1 of 6 cars there AND remain profitable. That's an impressive balancing act! (plus the new rally buggies that placed first in both Diesel class and 2-wheel-drive on their maiden outing)
With the platforms finally in place I think things will move faster in the future. They have some catching up to do (especially the Golf)
Yours is a more a balanced assessment than mine. Apart from benefiting from the low-cost brands, in Europe, they also have (or had) the mini-minivans, the transporter (light truck) market, the small platforms (A2, A3, Polo), etc.
I was more concerned with the US market. It simply does not have to be such a hit-and-miss strategy. I believe the US market is more predictable and somewhat more stable in certain segments than it may look like from the European vantage point. VW/Audi could and should take advantage of that, rather than falling behind for inexcusable reasons.
I remember talking to one of VWs top-level crash simulation engineers in the early nineties: he told me, at headquarters they did not even know what a family truck ("SUV") or a minivan were. And I believe him. Having owned two Subarus at the time, I also asked him what VW was going to do in this new AWD niche market.
Audi is taking care of that, and the VW segment should not compete, was all I ever heard. 10 years later we got the Allroad (what a competition to Subaru - not!), and still no affordable AWD wagon from VW [again, I am talking US, here].
I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
This discussion should probably be continued in a new thread.
- D.
On a separate note, I've seen mention of a "V8x" package that will be available. Can anyone tell me what this package is? Thanks.
VWs have Great styling, georgeous interiors, excellent handling, smooth transmission.
But they just can't execute on reliability.
Every VW owner we know - outside of ourselves, have had nothing but problems with their Jettas, and the Beetle is living up to it's name as being very "Buggy".
If you look at the percentage of repeat buyers for VW, it's probably very low - lower than GM, I bet. At least with the American cars, you get to pay a lot less for the same level of unreliability.
However, even if VW can fix their reliability problems, it will only stem their customer defection rates. VW's styling (interior and exterior) is very.... European.
I happen to love their refined interiors (a lot of care and though went into them, IMHO), but I don't think most Americans care very much about the interior of their cars as they do about the exteriors - at least not from what I have seen from my coworkers.
Nope, VW attracts the "quirky" kind of buyer (and I mean that in a GOOD way!). Kinda like Mac users are "quirky" compared to PC users. Their customers want something unique, stylish and something that tells people how unique they are. Their advertisments reflect this, and so do their drivers.
Too bad about their reliability though...
Go figure
Which leads me to beleive that their Non-German manufacturing plants are not quite up to spec, or they're making us pay for World War 2!
Regarding VW reliability, I have my concerns regarding quality and take some comfort in that the Touareg will be built in Europe. I also take some comfort in that if VW blows it on the launch of the Touareg, they will lose tremendous credibility in their desire to sell premium vehicles in the future. I hope they put all their efforts into making the vehicle as error free as possible.
Outside of the reliability issue, I have two other considerations. 1) VW dealerships are not accustomed to dealing with premium vehicles and, thus, the level of service that one expects in a premium may not be the same as with (say) a Lexus or Acura and 2) I hope the V6 is powerful enough given the somewhat heavy weight of the vehicle as I am not willing to pay for a V8. Paying @$41,000 for a VW is one thing (and a bit of a stretch in itself), but paying @$47,000 for a VW is quite another.
Tow Capacity @ 7700#s exceeds Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer(7300#s), ML 320(5000#s), X5(5000#s)
MDX(4500#s),and RX300(3500#s), Durango (7250#s),
and this with the 4.7LV8.
As to the weight of the V6 it comes in at about 5500#s...X5/5850#s, Durango/6200#s,MDX/5732#s, Explorer/5850#s.
And the Touareg 3.2L V6/225/225 gets the job done in this group as well. Durango 4.7LV8/235/295, X5/225/214, ML320/223/254.
And the VW Operating/Brand Standards Program has been in place for three years giving those Dealers that are serious contenders to really carry full and continous Inventories of the Touareg and Phaeton sufficient time to ramp up both sales & service processes...Those that have not will watch the train leave the station without them. And there is a generous list of existing Lux. Brand Dealers waiting to build MarketPlace facilities and deliver The Promise.
> 5500#s...X5/5850#s, Durango/6200#s,MDX/5732#s,
> Explorer/5850#s.
The 3.0 X5 is actually about 4586lbs (the 4.4i is ~4800)
The MDX with Touring is 4504lbs
From what I've read, the V6 Touareg is at least 4900 lbs, which puts it at a fairly significant power/weight disadvantage.
And Car and Driver provides the weight for the T-Regg after their tests in March.
At any rate, reliability/quality of cars has gone up over the years, and from looking at statistics, and to put things into perspective, I am certain a 2004 VW is more reliable/has better build quality than a 1998 Toyota or Honda.
- D
> Book...Don't know why you would suggest that it
> weighs less than I stated...
I got my figures directly from the manufacturer's published weights, not from a third party source. Maybe you're talking about the GVWR? I'm talking about curb weight.
> And Car and Driver provides the weight for the
> T-Regg after their tests in March.
The C&D weight was for the V8 not the V6, IIRC
And these are all V6 numbers, including the dollars...I put nothing in about our V8 at all...
However, you state that "the weight of the V6 it comes in at about 5500#s". Are you talking about the GWVR or the curb weight? Everything I've read so far puts the curb wt closer to 4900#, though I don't have the same info. sources you do.
> And these are all V6 numbers, including the
>dollars...I put nothing in about our V8 at all...
You mentioned the C&D article, which talks about the V8 not the V6, so I extrapolated.
mike
The disappointing thing for us was that the constant window problems really made it a love-hate relationship with the car. Things like that, and the ongoing O2 sensor problems with the current generation of Jettas really makes me wonder just how committed VW is at acknowledging and fixing these persistent problems.
At least they got the window regulator fixed - though it took them almost six years to do so. If Honda can lock down and fix a 1.5% transmission failure problem in three years, why can't VW fix something so easy as a window regulator in less than six years?
Someone also mentioned here that even if VW were to be able to roll out the Touareg in a reliable state, there is still that issue of Dealer service.
Although the dealership at my area is excellent, I can see how difficult a transition it might be for VW.
It is easier for any dealership to "kiss up" to the richer clients when everyone there owns a luxury car.
With VW's lineup (though upscale) spanning from low to high end, treating everyone the same will irk the wealthier ones, while segregating them will definitely alienate the majority of VW's customers.
GVWR: Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. The maximum allowable weight of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo, and tongue weight of any towed vehicle
UVW: Unloaded Vehicle Weight. The weight of a vehicle as built at the factory with full fuel, engine (generator) oil and coolants. It does not include cargo, occupants, or dealer installed accessories.
Wet Weight - Term used to describe the weight of a vehicle with all storage and holding tanks full. i.e., water, propane, etc.
In Germany, recalls are something done for the sake of the lives of customers. In Japan, recalls are something NOT done for the sake of your brand's image. The "legendary quality" of one manufacturer is actually legendary mediocrity. And when it comes to safety, an RCMP constable working highway patrol in the Canadian Rocky Mountains (the first guy on the scene at many, many fatal accidents) told me: "I'd rather be in a German car with a seat-belt than a Japanese apple-crate with an air-bag!" (he drives a Passat)
My Beetle TDI has 150,000 on it with just oil changes, a couple light bulbs, and 2 sets of tires. We sold my wife's '91 Passat with 235,000 on the odo and the only time it failed her was when an o-ring on the oil-cooler went with over 200k on the clock. It was replaced with a Eurovan that now has 190,000 on it and the only problem
is the cruise control quit working at lower speeds, then eventually altogether, suggesting it needs a new sending-unit (speed sensor), but we haven't bothered to spend money for that.
All these cars have power windows and locks and nothing has ever failed.
A friend has a '79 diesel Rabbit that she restored (stripped/painted/re-assembled) at 313,000 kms, but didn't touch the engine. It runs like a new car (and the original vinyl seats look amazing!)
My brother-in-law has always driven Toyotas, but switched from a Camry to an Accord EXR to a Jetta TDI.
Now, after 1 year with the Jetta he's going to replace his second car with a second Jetta, since his wife monopolizes the first one. He's not going back to Japanese cars because:
- the VW is more comfortable (he's 6'5" like me)
- the Jetta handles better
- the fit and finish is better
- the car is more economical to operate
- German cars feel a lot more solid than Japanese (excluding Lexus & Infiniti) -- just feel the weight of the doors, and imagine an SUV broad-siding you ...
- VWs have higher resale than anything from NA or Japan. (according to a recent study , they rank #2
behind Mercedes for lowest depreciation)
But, other than that, a Jetta and a Camry are pretty comparable (except that the new Camry's are SO UGLY -- they look like a bloated echo!)
_________________________________
Here's another take on quality.
2 cars have a recurring problem: 1 in 1000 exhibits the problem.
The owner of the german car goes to the dealer and is told: "Yes, we know about that and they're working to remedy it."
He comes away thinking all cars have this problem.
The owner of the japanese car goes to the dealer and is told: "We've NEVER seen that problem before ... have you been abusing this car?"
He comes away thinking he'd better not mention this problem to anyone or they'll think he caused it!
Its an attitude difference ... is the customer someone to be treated with respect and told the truth, or are they just your market ... someone who should come grovelling on their knees and just be happy they are priveledged enough to be able to drive one of your cars. And be sure to fire anyone who ever talks to a customer about the problems, or even other service managers, because according to head office "our cars have no problems" (at least that was the official word of the largest Japanese auto maker 10 years ago according to a service manager concerned about faulty brake master cylinders on their best selling model)
Has anyone else come to the same conclusion???
(I know I'll get flamed for this one
> constable working highway patrol in the Canadian Rocky
> Mountains (the first guy on the scene at many, many fatal
> accidents) told me: "I'd rather be in a German car with a
> seat-belt than a Japanese apple-crate with an air-bag!"
> (he drives a Passat).
Well, what do we know about the Touareg's safety design features? How does it compare to the current SUV benchmark, the Volvo XC90? For example: rollover stability system, low frame cross-member for bumper matching, pedestrian-friendly hood, side curtains for all seats, boron steel roll cage, seatbelt pretensioners, whiplash protection, rear fog light, etc.
More generally, the VW site scarcely mentions safety. I'm not familiar with VWs and would be interested in hearing owners' perception of the brand's safety. I never even considered a VW until the Touareg because a coworker had kept a folder of VW crashes (I believe one of his family had been injured in one) and liked to refer to the old Microbus and Bug as "pegleg specials."
German luxury vehicles have always been at the forefront of safety. I'd bet that most of the major safety features in a Volvo were invented by Mercedes. Volkswagens never match their Japanese competition for mileage because they are built (like Volvo) from heavier guage steel. VW also uses virgin steel which is more consistent and predictable (a safety factor), but also a reason they last long after their Japanese competition has been recycled.
For example, a New Beetle with automatic weighs 500 pounds MORE than a Toyota Celica, the same as an Accord and only 140 pounds less than a Camry. Given how much shorter its dimensions are you can appreciate how much stronger it is. Similarly, a EuroVan is about 600 pounds heavier than a Caravan.
The Touareg is a heavy vehicle. It will likely prove to be an extremely safe vehicle. But if you want more luxury, safety and handling in a 4WD, wait for the VW Phaeton. At 5500 pounds it matches the top-of-the-line Cadillac Eldorados of 30+ years ago for bulk.
RE Rear Fog Lights: That's one of the features of European VWs that doesn't cross the Atlantic. Are they legal here?
> dieselbreath: German luxury vehicles have always been at
> the forefront of safety. I'd bet that most of the major
> safety features in a Volvo were invented by Mercedes.
Today Volvo is known for safety and utility while Mercedes is known for, well, luxury and poor reliability. I always thought of VWs as cheap but stylish.
> Volkswagens never match their Japanese competition for
> mileage because they are built (like Volvo) from heavier
> guage steel.
Bulk doesn't necessarily mean safety. Heavy vehicles tend to be no more safer for occupants than lighter ones and are deadly for others. The idea is to put strength where it matters and create good impact zones elsewhere.
> RE Rear Fog Lights: That's one of the features of European
> VWs that doesn't cross the Atlantic. Are they legal here?
The bright lamp on the left-rear is standard on U.S. spec Volvos.
Volvo is known for overmarketing its emphasis on safety. MB does not overmarket it, yet its emphasis is just as strong as Volvo's if not stronger.
Volvo has made great accomplishments, but consider that in the last ten years, MB has introduced many more safety innovations. This includes co-inventing electronic stability control working with Bosch (and Volvo simply modifies it and claims to invent the first "rollover stability control" system). They also co-developed Brake Assist which you now find in many vehicles. MB introduced the first SUV with advanced safety features back in 1998, when other manufacturers (including Volvo) took years to follow (it had front AND rear crash compatibility back then, and a reinforced roof ... yeah its quality was bad, but the safety was there). MB is the first manufacturer to introduce stability control on all its vehicles, while Volvo only gives it to some higher trims in some models. (And VW is making ESP available on all its models and trims, it seems, while Volvo does not.). MB has aggressively implemented bi-xenons while Volvo is still gradually introducing the technology.
German manufacturers do well on safety, MB especially. VW has good safety technology and has in fact licensed the ESP, albeit with earlier versions. That's not to say that Volvos aren't great at safety too, but VW is certainly no slouch when it comes to safety. You won't see them overmarketing it either. Fact is, if it wasn't for the safety features, Volvo sales in the U.S. would dry up and they'd go out of business here. Other manufacturers have dramatically closed the gap and exceeded in some areas.
Marketing aside, I trust that my buddies in Hannover will do the best for Wolfsburg, anytime.
- D.
“Today Volvo is known for safety and utility while Mercedes is known for, well, luxury and poor reliability. I always thought of VWs as cheap but stylish.”
I have a two part problem with that statement, first and foremost MBZ is known for safety, the list of innovations and patents on the safety side is the largest of any manufacturer, starting with the crumple zone in the early 50’s, collapsible steering columns, offset impact, stability control, electric brakes and for this year pre safe.
Now if somebody asks what electric activated brakes have to do with safety the answer is simple, modulation or control of the vehicle while in motion, while the state of the art today is to have a dual system (front and rear) ABS an electric activated brake allows to control a vehicle like no other system could, take for instance going at high speed on a blind curve and suddenly a car is stalled on the way or any other object, while taking the curve the friction of the tires is greater on the outside, a conventional system applies pressure equally at the front tires and then the ABS becomes active if wheel lock occurs, on an electric system a computer is second by second calculating key parameters on the vehicle by using accelerometers, turn degrees, speed, etc, when the brakes are suddenly applied like in our example each wheel is going to receive a customized braking force making it more effective than a dumb system like ABS that only reacts to wheel lock besides that the reaction times of an electric system is so much faster. That is going to take us to the next evolution which is electrical steering, if one studies the intricacies of suspension geometry one realizes that the wheels are not in optimal angles as the vehicle is loaded by gravity, speed, uneven pavement cornering, etc, only by the use of a steering by wire can an optimal geometry be attained at all positions, here again Benz leads, a company that has the largest personnel in R&D, over 30,000 and a budget into the billions in fact D/C is one of the largest R&D companies in the world with an average of one patent per working hour..
I takes courage not to use other words to put people on the road on brake by wire, the research and redundancy was terrific.
Second the VW group is also known for solid first class engineering with a long list also of technical innovation and if one thing the VW vehicles of today are known is for quality and the use of those materials, especially on the interior. We have a 98 Passat 1,8T and in 5 years that car never had to go and see the doctor, it has done a lot better than the two Camry’s my daughter had in the same period
We also have the much maligned ML, going into 4 years, never had any problems with it, at this point I would not trade it for any other vehicle other than a Touareg with the V10 diesel, I pull 25ft fishing boat way over 5,000lbs.
Despite the passion and hyperbole, there is not much difference between cars in a given class. As consumers we look for small differences. Volvo's emphasis on safety, including their amazing test facility, help to set them apart. Perhaps VW also has world-class test facilities and chooses not to tell us; given their traditional price point, though, I doubt it. The Touareg may be a special case because it was developed jointly with Porsche as I understand it.
I have a different perspective on some of the comments. wmquan noted: "MB introduced the first SUV with advanced safety features back in 1998, when other manufacturers (including Volvo) took years to follow... ."
Both Volvo and VW were late to the SUV wars. In Volvo's case an SUV didn't fit their design philosophy and they had no platform to built it on until the P2 was introduced in 2000. The XC70, although successful, was not enough for customers wanting the "security" of a big vehicle. I don't know what influence Ford had in the decision but at that point Volvo saw that the American market wanted a large 7-passenger vehicle and that they could build an SUV on their terms.
"MB is the first manufacturer to introduce stability control on all its vehicles, while Volvo only gives it to some higher trims in some models."
Volvo makes the stability control optional on some vehicles to keep the price reasonable. For many drivers the base car handles so well that stability & traction control is not needed. The XC90, however, has it as standard. From what I gather the Touareg has something called 4XMOTION which may be similar but I'm not sure.
"MB has aggressively implemented bi-xenons while Volvo is still gradually introducing the technology."
Volvo was not convinced it was a good idea and only started offering it after much testing. Many drivers don't like bi-xenons so they are an option, as they are on the Touareg.
And allhorizon commented: "Concerning the roll-over stability system in Volvos, a number of recent state-of-the-art ABS/ESP programs were developed by Continental-Teves, a supplier of safety systems to VW (e.g., ESP) for many, many years."
We can drown in the acronym soup but I believe Volvo's Roll Stability Control (RSC) is unique to the XC90. Is not the Electronic Stability Program (ESP) mentioned in the link what Volvo calls Dynamic Stability and Traction Control (DSTC)?
In any case, I'm interested in the Touareg but, like others, I have a hard time thinking of VW and $40k+ cars.
That is quite funny. When VW builds 2 SUVs in an eastern-bloc factory and ships them 500 miles by train to Germany, it is reasonable for Porsche to install an engine, seats, and paint it and charge $20,000 more than for the same car with V-10 turbo-diesel offering similar performance on half the fuel, but bearing a VW badge.
Porsche have always had a high VW content.
The most reliable Volvos for decades were the diesel sedans. That engine used to come in 3 lengths:
- 4 cyl versions went into VW cars
- 5 cyl versions went into Audis
- 6 cyl versions went into Volvos
They all came from the same VW factory.
If you ignore trucks and vans, VW sells more cars than GM, Ford, Daimler/Chrysler, etc.
There is a reason that so many people buy them: its value ... based on performance, safety, reliability, and high resale value.
Volvo markets performance like Pontiac markets style. You have to emphasize what you have. VW, Mercedes, BMW & Audi are all extremely safe brands, but it is something buyers assume, not something that has to be pointed out explicitly.
Back to pricing: put $40k into a Volvo and $40k into a VW and see which is worth more in 5 or 10 years. The last study that I saw placed VW in #2 position behind Mercedes for lowest depreciation.
Sounds like an excuse to me. In quantities, stability control (Volvo's DSTC) does not add so much to the vehicle's cost. And it's not like Volvos are cheap, either. VW offers ESP for all trim levels at a very reasonable $280. The fact that Volvo forces one to pay for a higher-end trim version to get what they themselves say is an important safety feature is a poor approach. Especially as stability control becomes more commonplace.
And while we're on the subject of safety, most of VW's AWD systems are better for a broader variety of inclement weather conditions than Volvo's AWD systems. E.g. the 4motion that is based on the Torsen has better characteristics than the predominantly FWD-based, reactive AWD in many Volvos. Since you mentioned MB, the M-class's 4WD system is also superior, with a near 50/50 split to all wheels all the time and 4-wheel traction control. You'll probably be okay with the Volvo, but since we're talking the more extreme points of safety when we get to Volvos, it's worth mentioning.
Volvo was not convinced it was a good idea and only started offering it after much testing. Many drivers don't like bi-xenons so they are an option, as they are on the Touareg.
I'm afraid that's also a dubious rationale. MB does not force bi-xenons on drivers in most of the vehicles (and certainly not their SUV's). They're an option as well. MB has done a lot of testing too, and Volvo is simply behind. And, once again, Volvo only provides xenons on some of the higher-trim versions, forcing one to spend more to get something one can consider an important safety feature. To be fair, VW is behind on xenons as well.
I certainly would agree with the general assessment that Volvo is ahead of VW when it comes to safety engineering. However, I do not believe the gap to be very wide. Certainly not what it was ten years ago. And I feel that MB has actually pulled slightly ahead of Volvo in safety. MB simply has the $'s to outpace Volvo's R&D, as well as excellent researchers and facilities as well. MB can introduce pioneering safety technology in $100k+ vehicles like the S-Class, and then eventually lower the cost to go into all its vehicles and help suppliers like Bosch and Continental-Teves license it to others. That's how electronic stability control and brake assist were developed, and now many vehicles, not just the European ones, have these features. Likewise, MB's brake-by-wire technology and PRE-SAFE are filtering downward, and eventually Volvo can copy some of this.
As for VW, we don't know how the Touareg will ultimately fair in crash tests and other safety assessments, but I suspect it will do very well. As well as an XC90? Perhaps not, but probably very close. Look at it this way ... crash tests aren't everything, but the Passat fares as well as the S60 does in the EuroNCAP tests. VW has really narrowed the safety gap on Volvo.
In any case, I'm interested in the Touareg but, like others, I have a hard time thinking of VW and $40k+ cars.
I agree that you won't be the only one. Some folks, especially those who appreciate what VW did with the Passat, will be comfortable with the Touareg's price (especially as it goes substantially above $40k depending on equipment). Fact is, while VW has made great strides in customer perception, there are still a lot of folks who have older views of VW's. It will definitely be a challenge, and hopefully the better VW dealerships will be up to it.
Back to pricing: put $40k into a Volvo and $40k into a VW and see which is worth more in 5 or 10 years. The last study that I saw placed VW in #2 position behind Mercedes for lowest depreciation.
The depreciation on Volvos is pretty bad. It looks even worse because many new models of 2nd/3rd+ year vehicles have large incentives, thus they can sell well under MSRP. When we were considered a used vehicle for a second car, we were amazed at how cheap we could get a 2001 S60 or V70. The dealer was desperately trying to sell unsold 2002's off their lot as well, and this was in January 2003!
The people I know who own VWs have them because they are affordable and have a European flare. Most would have gladly purchased an Audi or Volvo or even an MB if they could have afforded it. "Performance, safety, reliability, and high resale value" were secondary considerations from what I can tell.
Hearing people's thinking about German cars is interesting. "You have to emphasize what you have." Well, in that case I'd say VW leaves me a little cold. Maybe it's just the Germanic style. When I look at the respective websites for the Touareg and XC90 I see VW stressing performance and off-road ability punctuated by hard rock music, whereas Volvo focuses on safety, versatility and comfort with a backdrop of nature. Very different approaches.
Then there's wmquan's note that "most of VW's AWD systems are better for a broader variety of inclement weather conditions than Volvo's AWD systems." I thought the Swedish company Haldex supplied the current AWD systems for VW, Audi and Volvo. I doubt there is much of a difference.
Well, thanks for the responses and I'll add them to my mental notes.
> the current AWD systems for VW, Audi and Volvo.
> I doubt there is much of a difference.
Yes and no. The Touareg is Torsen based, as are the VW Passat, Audi A4/A6. The Audi TT and Bora (Euro spec Jetta) are Haldex.
mml7 hit it on the head. Note that I said "most" of VW's AWD systems are better than what Volvo offers. Most VW (and Audi) AWD systems are based on the Torsen system used in Audi's quattro. Only a few VW/Audi vehicles (Audi TT and Bora, as mml7 mentioned) currently use the Haldex that Volvos have. While this may change in the future, that is why the Touareg AWD and the Passat 4motion's AWD are much better than the AWD in the Volvo XC90 or AWD trims of the S60 and V70.
Of course, over time this may change as some future VW's may go to the Haldex. The Haldex in Volvos is cheaper and lighter, and is adequate for most situations, though the Torsen-based systems are simply better. Volvo isn't using a more sophisticated AWD system in the S60 and V70 because they need to make those vehicles cheaper, and it saves weight, and they may (may) not have the engineering to do it.
The Audi TT has the Haldex because lightness is the TT's game and it's not meant to be a bad-winter vehicle. The Bora gets it because the Haldex is cheaper. While the Passat and Touareg get the more expensive but more capable system.
The Haldex systems in the Volvos are FWD-based, shifting significant power to the rears after slippage has begun. The AWD systems in the Touareg and 4motion provide power to all 4 wheels and thus do not have to react. 4-wheel traction control ensures that the vehicle can power any single tire that has grip.
While the Haldex systems in the Volvos react pretty quickly, more extreme conditions (winter storms, etc.) favor AWD that does not have to slip in the first place.
So yes, there is MUCH difference.