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Comments
As to performance...I would suggest that this is in the eye of the beholder...We had the T-Regs out on the track at Firebird International Raceway in Phoenix...pushed both power plants against the competition...X5, MLs, etc. Handling and power were all there...
Test drives are very unique experiences...For me, I try to provide a simple, no nonsense combination of city & highway driving...No conversation, unless I am asked a question..But, I know that for the customer it is generally always an 8 out 10...The car is unfamiliar, there is a visual assault because everything is new and different, and the fact that the car belongs to someone else promotes a bit of discomfort.
Mark, your experience at this store is just plain sad...The Phaeton arrives in November and will be a wonderful product for a very select clientele. The R32, not RS32, will be here Q1 2004 and will be priced at ~$30K...And the Touareg can be ordered to spec today...
Interesting perspective on test drives, btw.
Steve, Host
This happened just the other day in a response to my friend Mark from Cincinnati...
It has always been a problem with the Town Hall
servers or software...
Often you can go "back" in your browser after a time out and find your draft from the message box, copy it and repost it into a new message box.
But for you it may be safer to compose in Notepad and then paste into Town Hall when the phone quits ringing.
Steve, Host
The interior was very rich, I didn't find the plastics to be anything but luxurious. However, I couldn't help but notice two unfortunate items:
1- the back seat bench is a bit low; and
2- from the outside, it looks like a Passat wagon jacked up and with the cargo area chopped in half. Not necessarily a bad thing, but given that 95% (my estimate) of consumers won't take this off road, more cargo area would be good. Also, it seems a lot of excess materials are included for off-roading and that leads to an overweight vehicle).
Might get T-reg when my Passat lease expires in early 2005.
Before buying test drove the following SUV's:
MB
BMW
Volvo
Porsche
Expedition
Acura
Lexus
Honda
Chose VW for following reasons:
Price
Own a Passat GLX and a New Beetle and love both
Loved the exterior.
Perfect size for us.
Second place was the X5 and there are soooo many out there, then the MDX, but we don't need third row for two of us.
Highs:
I really love this car.
- Handles great for an SUV
- Very comfortable
- Many comments from people including two people who both said damn I should have waited for it (one driving a new MB ML and the other a brand new Sequoia).
- Feels great - no fatigue after a 120 mile drive
on Saturday.
- Doesn't show dirt as much as I anticipated in a brief offroad excursion.
Lows:
- Gas mileage a bit less than my Passat --- averaged about 19mpg over the weekend in mixed driving.
- Can't get Homelink to recognize the door opener.
- Can't get memory programmed to key (going to read manual tonight so I can't fault them for either of these two yet).
- Nav disks had to be ordered --- get them today finally.
- Still not comfortable with the jog-dial to navigate menus - when trying to select something, it often scrolls past the selection that I would like.
- Wish the storage bin at top had a cover.
- Acceleration ok - not thrilled but still getting used to it. Feels about 20 MPH slower in the car than actual speed. I was doing about 100 on the highway the other day and only the speed warning light pointed this out --- honestly felt like I was doing 70 or so...maybe I should have waited for an 8 at the dealers. Although if I was looking for a fast SUV would have bought the Infiniti FX or the Porsche.
Overall:
- Very, Very, Very happy with my purchase and we are contemplating trading in the Passat and the Beetle in on another Touareg when winter comes along (after all we are in Upstate NY). Maybe then I can get my 8
Your post was very encouraging.
VW needs to "offer" all inclusive maintenance. I have decided that although I know the maintenance costs are buried in the purchase price that it "just feels" good to pull into the dealer and say, "my wipers aren't wiping, there is a squeak in the passenger side power window, I think I need an all wheel alignement, and one of the puddle lights is out and while I'm here go ahead and perform the 10K oil and filter change and the left front wheel may need balancing.
And, I can't wait, so please let me use a car for the day and when I pick mine up, I would like to have had it (weather not a factor, of course) washed and the floor mats vacuumed. Oh and I don't want to pay you a penny for anything other than some gas for the "loaner" car that I would have had to pay for anyway.
Somehow, even though I know "it's in the sticker price of the Audi. . ." service never feels like I am being nickel'd and dime'd to death. And there is never any hassle.
How about this. . .make the VW available with the "option" for full warranty and the "audi" advantage. My dealer claims that the cost of such a feature -- depending on the car -- is $1500 to $2000. Funny when I didn't have full maint in days gone by, even oil changes were $100 affairs, or so it seemed.
Where do I sign VW ?? Are you listening ??
Or, do it the "right" way and call it VW Elite protection and spell it out just like Audi does -- who cares if you rip off the program from Audi. It works and it probably helps attract repeat buyers.
I had a heck of a time getting it programmed too. I finally got it programmed by holding the remote in front of the Homelink buttons (towards the windshield), just underneath the compass display.
- Can't get memory programmed to key (going to read manual tonight so I can't fault them for either of these two yet).
There's a typo / bad info in the manual. Try this (steps 2-4 are probably unnecessary...):
1) Put key in ignition and turn to the on position
2) Adjust seat and mirrors as necessary
3) Push SET
4) Push and hold the memory seat button until you hear the beap
5) Turn key to off position and remove from ignition
6) Push SET
7) Push the memory button again
8) Push and hold the UNLOCK button on the remote until you hear the tone.
g'luck. let me know if it works!
The V6 sounded very smooth but a little more power would be nice. I would step on the gas and the power didn't come on until a second later. Kinda like a turbo, weird.
The cargo area is not large, but adequate.
Great SUV at 35K. but at the 39K sticker, merely interesting. And the V8 coming in at 45K? I'd rather take the GX470.
A side note: the sales guy was great. not pushy and very enthusiastic and knowledgeable. wish they were all like him.
As for the Homelink setup..you may have "rolling codes" with your garage opener. This was present on my garage door opener so I had grab a ladder and climb up to the garage opener, remove the panel, press the test/configure button and then quickly return to the car and press the Homelink button I wanted to open the garage. Hope this helps.
The Bay Area paper had an ad (The SUVW – cute) announcing that the Touareg was arriving in dealerships on June 30th. So I went to my closest dealer (Dublin). This is a freshly built new-look standalone dealership. They had a V6 (Colorado Red with Beige interior) in the showroom, and a Reed Green V8 in the shop – which I wasn’t allowed to look at..
First, the car: it makes much more of an impression in the flesh. It has real presence. The materials looked and felt great – as good as my A6, much better than my ’99 Passat. The front seat was very comfortable for my large 6’-2” frame, but as usual I had to push it all the way back, and down. When I did that, I uncovered not only a hump with the track, but exposed screwheads, body metal, and wiring. I read about this either in this townhall or on VWVortex, but it looked terrible. Certainly not fitting for a $49K vehicle.
My other major disappointment is the back seat. Definitely too small, too low, and not enough legroom behind my seat. It’s almost as if VW took a page out of the GM book and used their “low bench” trick to increase the interior volume rating of this vehicle.
The Touareg would be perfect if it weighed 4400 lbs. and had a roomier and higher rear seat.
As for the salesman, what an unbelievable [non-permissible content removed]! They’ve marked up the V6 by about $6 grand. $49 grand for a V6! I asked when I could drive one, he said: “not for 6 months”. I asked if he had a sample or swatch of the Teak leather, and he said no, but it only comes with the light metallic blue anyway. Wrong! That’s actually one of the few colors it does NOT come with!
He also said that I could not even order one for about 3 months, and then it would take six months to deliver! He said in the meantime, I would have to take whatever car came in. ( from this townhall, I already understood the deal with the deliveries).
He showed me a brochure, but would not let me keep it! This guy was really working hard to earn my business!
From my vantage point, VW is doing everything wrong in launching this car. What’s the point of building these brand-new dealerships and advertising this new LUXURY SUV if they can’t get their act together?
So now, I have to reconsider. Most of the local Audi dealers have been professional, courteous and knowledgeable, unlike this VW clod.
I may wait for teh dust to settle and the bugs to be worked out on this new model.
I love the looks and the interior on my A6 2.8, but not the soggy handling or sluggish performance. I need a bigger back seat. I love the A8, but that’s not an option right now.
The warranty on my A6 runs out in December, so I have a few months. A local BMW dealer had a 2002 S6 (yes, S) for an unbelievable $43K. By the time I saw the ad, it had sold. I’ll give the Allroad another look based on your postings (probably a 2002 with 100K mi warranty), and maybe an A6 4.2 that I can run for a couple years.
I’ll also check out a couple other VW dealers in the area and give them a chance to earn my business. Let’s hope they’re better than the guy I visited today.
The quality of materials appear to be first rate and very Audi like. But as others have mentioned, when the price starts climbing into the mid 40's and knocking on 50'g for the V8 model, a lot of other cars come into play.
They have 2 T-regs: one V6 [w/air and nav] and one V8 [pretty basic]. He said test drives would be allowed this week.
Steve, Host
My wife and I could, product wise, see ourselves in an RS32 and a Touareg V8 within 2 years -- having once owned an A8 and 2 V8 A6's, I could even be at least a candidate for a Phaeton.
The Audi dealers here in Cincinnati treat their suspects, prospects and customers pretty much like the BMW dealers and the (1, in Cincinnati) Mercedes dealer. Come to think of it the Saab and Volvo dealer also treats customers well. I suspect the Rolls and Jaguar dealers also treat customers well (I have only visited the Rolls dealer one time, several years ago and the showroom people talked with me "as if" I could actually be a potential customer. Even the Cadillac dealers haven't universally "got it" with respect to customer expecations and treatment.
So my wife is already starting to "justify" the $10,000+ extra for an Audi over the RS32 -- even though she wants a back seat and actually likes the looks of the RS32. The dealer pretty much was a turn off.
The Audis seem like more of a bargain, every day.
Do you want to know why they offered to bring a 330 to your home for a test drive? Because they are not selling them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No room in the back seat of the Touareg? Well...
there is room for a ton of stuff behind that seat...The 330 offers more room in the back seat,
but you have to send your stuff via Fed Ex because you can't get more than two bags behind the seats.
Is the Touareg a jack of all trades SUV? Only for the most part...If you and your significant other have a couple of kids that are 6' plus and don't want to go off road; this vehicle is not for you...
The treatment at the Audi dealer is "comfortable" and "comforting" -- and we're not going cross country to buy from you even though we're sure you would be a good guy to deal with.
We can debate the merits of the vehicle forever and there will be people who think it is too big, too small, just right, etc. -- the dealer body seems, at this point in time, oblivious to VW's upmarket move; or, if not oblivious, clueless as to what is expected of them.
On the positive side, I DID like sitting in the vehicle. It has far more off-road capability that I will use (essentially none), so it may not be a practical choice for me. But, I liked the look, the size, the features. I have time, so when things settle down, I'll stop back. Availability (assuming that occurs) can have a great influence on dealer/sales attitude and response.
I have been waiting for the Touareg to come out in order to compare/contrast it to the Nissan Murano. The big question is whether the VW is worth the extra $10k in upfront cost vs. the Murano, as will as the additional estimated $1,500 in additional operating costs (gas, insurance). Also, I assume service and character of salespersons ("lot lizards") will be equally mediocre (vs. luxury brands). Any input would be appreciated.
I like the Touareg better, but do I like it by $10k better?? (FYI, have ruled out the RX330 (don't like the look or price), MDX (wife has one), X5 (too expensive), any domestic nameplate, any true wagon and any truck based vehicle.)
I want to pass on our introduction to the T-Reg,
the local dealer had a "by invitation " showing of three new units, two 6's and an 8. One V6 was available for test driving. They brought in a professional race car driver from the pro series to act as a spokes person and a host driver. He had laid out a test track in the neighborhood and
a slollom (sp) coarse in the dealer parking lot. He took my wife and me out for a "spin" in a new V6. ( it had Vynal seats that look just like leather) Quite a wild ride to say the least. He threw that car around like a Gran Prix car and it stuck like glue without a wimper or groan (except from my wife, she looked a little pale!) At the end of a long set of switch backs he reved up to red line slamed on the brakes in a panic stop, but there was no panic just superb manners in a fully controlled stop. All I can say is "you had to be there". Long story short, I went back the next day
and drove the 6 but I was not really impressed with the pick-up unless you really wind it up. Any way I like a V8 with lots of torque, so that's what I bought. I shall advise you further after delivery
One more argument to post #606: There was plenty of room for all our family's vacation baggage behind the rear seats of our new RX 330. That was with the seats slid all the way back. When more cargo space is needed, the rear seats can slide forward (at the expense of rear seat leg room).
(can't remember where I read that)
Back seat is too small for us ... my teenagers are both over 6' tall.
As for RX330s not selling, that is news to me.
Several times I have been loaned A6 3.0's, once or twice I was loaned an A6 2.7T and 1 time an S4 automatic?!? My wife was loaned a front trak TT with a 6speed auto last time.
The cars in for service are always washed and sometimes vacuumed.
We have a dealer charge so even if there is a charge it is never at the "point of purchase" that funds are required. Although with the Audi advantage the biggest cost is the upcharge for Mobil1 Oil.
The whole approach is meant to minimize the fact that you are in for service -- there appears to be a culture that fundamentally wants you to know that they know they are "putting you out" and that they will bend over backwards to make you feel as little pain as is possible.
The sales people are also regularly checking up on the customers and not changing from a "I love you while you're buying" to a "get outa my way, boy, you bother me" after the sale.
I am unable to speak for all VW dealers, or in fact, any VW dealers -- I can only speak as a previous and potential future customer. As Monty Python says "run away. . .run away!!"
Damn, and I'm starting to really like the VW products.
Shame, damn shame.
in price. I had been talking to them for at least two months prior to first showing. If Archer will cut a deal go for it!
Later I had a fog lamp out in the Beetle and my dealer was booked, so my wife took my car into Guildford VW in Surrey. She got a New Beetle GLS with the 1.8 Turbo plus aftermarket airdam and other customizations for an overnight loaner (replacing a fog light on a New Beetle requires taking the bottom cover off the car and going in from the back ... 5 hours or something).
Even for simple oil changes the car always comes back washed outside, vacuumed inside, all windows washed inside and out, with a comment card. We now do our service at Bruce Norman's dealership in Langley BC. The service at all 3 VW dealers is as good as I ever got at Mercedes of Canada on Broadway Ave. in Vancouver (Canada's largest Mercedes dealership by sales volume).
However, I've talked to friends in Seattle and its obvious that the dealerships don't take their jobs as seriously. And the prices!
We had a rear seal replaced on my wife's Eurovan, along with the clutch and some hoses for just over $1000 CDN with tax. A friend in Seattle had just the clutch replaced on his Eurovan and it was almost $1500 US. Factoring in exchange at the time, he paid double for less work.
If that's typical of US VW dealers, then its no wonder that VW will sell more cars in China next year than they will in the US! (They have over 38% market share in China, and also build Audis there)
The Touareg's full time AWD system uses a 50:50 front back split. The X5 uses a 38:62 split. The Touareg can transfer 100% of the power to either axle, or to a single wheel when properly equipped. I'm not sure if the X5 can do this.
They both have traction control (plus a bevy of other acronyms like VDC/ESP, ABS, EBC, HDC) but I don't know if one is better than the other.
The X5's ground clearance is 7.1". The non Air suspension equipped Touareg is 9.3". With the optional air suspension, you can jack that up to 11.8".
The Touareg also does not have rear passenger side airbags (which would be a bad idea anyway if you have small kids). Like the X5, though, it does have the Side Curtain airbags that extend from the A piller to the C piller.
All in all, the X5 is really nice, but it ended up being too expensive for what we would have gotten. A stripped X5 3.0 with 5spd auto already pushes $41.5K. And that doesn't include things like leather, sun roof, heated seats or wood trim -- you know, the things that luxury cars are 'supposed' to come with.
Of course, the BMW has that brand cache that VW does not (good or bad depending upon your perspective)....
The V6 drove very nicely, good steering feel, and the ride was very comfortable, not harsh at all, likely helped by the 17" Wheel/tire combo. It was also a quiet car, with adequate throttle response. Might be a bit of a slug with a load, or traveling in the mountains or both. Why is it that none of the dealers (Porsche and VW) have Navigation CDs in the car. Are they afraid it will not compare well with other brand SUV navigation systems? Anyway, compared to the Toyota Previa LE AWD that I have now, the V6 Touareg is extremely nice, except it doesn't hold as much cargo as my minivan. The manner in which the rear seats fold and unfold leaves much to be desired. The rear seat headrest design significantly blocks the rear view and become real fumbling points to remove while trying to drop forward the seat backs. My wife seriously pinched her finger trying to see how she could operate the seats herself. Cut the stay immediately at the dealer to get her home to ice the pinched finger/nail and emerging blood clot.
The V8 engine sound it noticeable, but nice. The final drive ratio for the Cayenne is 4.12, but the VW final drive is 4.54 for some extra punch off the line. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think the Cayenne starts off in second gear from a standing start. The Touareg seems to start from first gear and the calibration on the electronic gas pedal with the 4.54 drive makes it very jumping in response, similar to driving a V8 BMW X5....maybe worse. The jumpy start is the only bad behavior of the V8 and it will crop up when trying to be careful in a parking lot, especially a multi-level cramped one like in San Francisco. It has plenty of power for hauling loads of people/material and is my engine of choice. Just wish the throttle was de-tuned or there was a tiptronic selection for starting in second gear. The steering didn't seem as good as the V6, probably due to the heavier engine and the ride in the V8 was also poorer than the V6, perhaps due to the 18" wheel/tire combination.
The Cayenne S had better transmission response and drive-ability with no jackrabbit starts like the Touareg. With the glut of Cayennes on dealer lots, especially in markets like Silicon Valley, discounts are readily available. The choice between the two cars is closer in price than it will be later when more VW product will abound, but the Porsche premium price, though still present, is not a hugh differential.
rsholland "Town Hall Test Drive Team" Jul 11, 2003 9:19pm
Steve, Host
I am leaning to the Murano, largely because I don't think I can pay $42K for a VW. If the Tourag (V8 version) were say $5,000 less, no problem. If the Touareg were made by Audi, again no problem. But $42K and I don't even get a premium/luxury nameplate!! Not to mention that VW did horrible in the most recent JD Power long term problem tests. I will also likely incur an additional $1,500 per year in higher gas and insurance costs with the VW (need the V8).
This is a shame becuase I wanted to spend low $40's and get a premium SUV. Unfortunately, the obvious car-based choices are out: MDX (my wife has one and we can't have 2 - we love it by the way), XC90 (nice, but not quite worth @$43K and the comments seem to be bad), RX330 (just don't like it and it's not masculine enough), X5 (love it, but can't get past spending $50K for a vehicle).
I like the Touareg, but just don't love it. I like it somewhat better than the Murano, but just not sure how much more. Thanks in advance!
The next thing that you need to do is read the reviews in the Automotive Press.
Then you need to drive both vehicles on the same day, and within a narrow window of time...
Consult the various Nissan Boards here and find out if the Nissan Owners have any Service or reliability issues...
And finally, bear in mind that the Touareg is the result of a $600,000,000.00 Joint Venture
with Porsche, and that deep down in the Frame & Metal of every Cayenne lives a Touareg...All originate at the VW Plant in Brataslavia, Slovakia...
At first, the Murano seemed to be an excellent choice for the dollar, but there were 3 factors that eventually swayed us away. The biggest factor was that many new Murano owners were already complaining about rattles and other unwanted interior noises. I researched the Nissan enthusiasts' web site of freshalloy.com. There were many different gripes about rattles in the doors and pillars. I saw a poll where nearly 50% of participants claimed their Murano had interior noise issues. With the addition of other feedback I read at this site, I feared the interior build quality was lacking. Secondly, I also disliked the option packaging and pricing. Finally, after growing accustomed to premium nameplates such as the Acura, BMW, Audi, etc., I did not look forward to dealing with my local Nissan dealer for maintenance and warranty service.
We also considered the Volvo XC90, but for my price range, this would have required a FWD model with the 2.5T 5-cylinder engine. I had a difficult time paying so much money for an underpowered 4300-pound SUV. We were also concerned about reliability, although there seemed to be fewer known issues with the 2.5T than with the 6-cylinder model.
We considered another MDX, but we were looking forward to something different after driving our '01 model for nearly 60,000 miles. We also wanted our next SUV to have head-protecting side curtain airbags, which were still lacking in the '03 MDX.
We probably would have given the Touareg more consideration if we intended to use our SUV off-road. The Touareg seems to offer an excellent combination of on-road manners and off-road capabilities. However, those off-road capabilities come with a price, especially in terms of weight. There is also the big question mark concerning reliability. However, if you plan on driving this next SUV under some challenging conditions, I would highly consider the Touareg before a loaded Grand Cherokee, Land Rover Discovery, or similar competition.
We ended up purchasing the '04 RX330, in the dark flint exterior (to help add some "masculinity"!). My wife is the primary driver, but I also enjoy it. It certainly wasn't our first choice, but it does what we need it to. It provides good acceleration, a comfortable ride for our urban and freeway driving, and we expect it to have good reliability. As an added bonus, we get very good fuel economy on regular unleaded fuel.
Since the RX330 doesn't seem to be to your tastes, would you consider the X5 with the 3.0 engine? If you factory order an '04 model, you should be able to choose your options wisely to keep your price well below $50K. You will also get free maintenance for 4 years or 50K miles.
re: cotmc comments - I also have some concerns on the Murano build quality, but at this point don't see it as a big hinderance. I have no problem with the option packages and pricing. I also would rather deal with premium nameplate dealers, but that does not include VW. I agree with your Volvo comments.
I don't plan on ever taking my new vehicle off-road, so the extra's on the VW are wasted on me. My conclusion as to why they increased the cost of the vehicle with the off-road extras is that they wanted to "buy" credibility to stand out in the crossover field and wanted to get to a higher price level to push the VW brand to a higher bracket. Time will tell, but I think they are going to have a tough time asking people to pay the same amount for the VW as the Lexus. (They are the same price because the VW requires a V8 just to stay even with other vehicles due to its high weight.)
The X5 even with the smaller engine will be more than I can get comfortable with. I just don't care for the exterior looks of the RX and think the new 330 is a less than inspiring successor to the 300. I will not buy the FX-it looks ridiculous, has a rough ride and will get killed on resale.
Thus, I'm back to the Murano vs. Touareg decision?!
VW had orginally planned to sell 60,000 SUVs annually. Did anyone notice that's been halved to 30,000? Had VW done a mainstream vehicle that directly competed with Murano, Highlander, Pilot, etc. they could have sold 80,000 of them. I guess the ego trip was more important.
It is nicely done though, just a massive missed opportunity. And why does the FX look more like a Porsche than the Cayenne?
Just a nit pick, but the Touareg is not a crossover vehicle and not based on a stretched wagon/sedan platform like the MDX, Murano or RX.
Time will tell, but I think they are going to have a tough time asking people to pay the same amount for the VW as the Lexus. (They are the same price because the VW requires a V8 just to stay even with other vehicles due to its high weight.)
The problem here is that Lexus did a *terrible* job with the redesign -- that back end is UGLY. Plus, the way they build/deliver them, the resulting cost is over $40K, despite the low base price.
0-60 isn't everything and the V6 Touareg can hold its own. It definately isn't as fast as an X5 3.0, MDX or RX330, however.
The X5 even with the smaller engine will be more than I can get comfortable with.
See my comments above re: VW vs. X5. Nice car, just too rich for my tastes.
I just don't care for the exterior looks of the RX and think the new 330 is a less than inspiring successor to the 300. I will not buy the FX-it looks ridiculous, has a rough ride and will get killed on resale.
I agree. The FX does look a bit weird, but so doesn't the Murano (IMO). We seriously considered the Murano a few months back. With almost no negotiation, we could have purchased a fully loaded Murano for less than $500 above invoice. (and get a great deal on our trade)
We had thought that if we looked at the Murano long enough, we would come to appreciate the way it looks. It looks great from some angles, and terrible from others.
The interior of the Murano is unrefined compared to the Touareg and more in line with the Altima. I thought all that aluminum looked a bit tacky (plus I can't figure out why they highlight that awful cabernet colored leather). Still, at ~$32K for a fully loaded rig, it represents a pretty good bargain.
If you really like the Murano, buy it. You'll save yourself a at least $5k over any of the other cars you mentioned.