Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

hansienna · January 2005

Example: Edmunds "Trade-In" value for my 02 T&C LX is $13,164 while "Retail" is $16,672 which is $3,508. By comparison, another used car pricing quotes $13,125 and $17,440. That is a whopping $4,315 !! These differences represent a much larger potential profit to a dealer than that which they might earn on a new vehicle.

     I believe dealers make much more money on used vehicles than new. Just look at all the "almost new" DC minivans available on most new car dealership lots.

     However, as isell truthfully points out, there is a huge expense involved in operating a car dealership. Dealers are losing money in interest costs every day a vehicle sits on the lot before it is purchased. There are also commissions and preparation costs on used cars.

     Many dealers will give $1,000 or more extra trade-in IF they have a known buyer for a trade-in.

isellhondas · January 2005

I have never seen a Town and Country van bring anywhere near book values.

Either retail or wholesale. We cringe when we see one because we know what the buy bids are going to be.

Does this make them "bad" cars? Nope, not at all but this is what we run into on a daily basis.

hansienna · January 2005

Honda and Toyota vehicles also do NOT bring anywhere near book values as used vehicles.

I have many friends who are very disappointed when they go to trade-in their Honda or Toyota on a new Honda or Toyota. The dealers will NOT pay what the book values list.

Honda and Toyota usually have a higher resale based on factory MSRP but when compared to actual selling prices, the depreciation on most vehicles is about the same percentage of actual purchase price when new (if the buyer is alert).

isellhondas · January 2005

But you are wrong. I know. I deal with this on a daily basis, hands on. I don't rely on what I read on the intenet.

stever · January 2005

Wrong about the book values or deprecation percentages?

Steve, Host

isellhondas · January 2005

We have a full time buyer who travels to places like Florida and California looking for good Hondas to buy. It's not uncommon for him to pay OVER book for certain hard to find and keep in stock models. Then it's 700.00 or more to ship them here. In order to get these cars we have to be the high bidder and there area lot of hands in the air for the right cars.

Certain year Accords and Civics are the tough ones. Everybody wants low miles and automatic.

But, I guess there are Hondas that could be a bit "back of book". These would be Passports or Preludes or cars with high miles.

The books may say to deduct say, 1000.00 on the 98 Accord with 150,000 miles but in reality, we have to buy these cheap so we can sell them cheap enough to attract a buyer.

stever · January 2005

Gee, there must be a lot of money in used cars if dealers in the northwest are sending buyers to Florida to pay over-book for them!

ok, back to the vans.

Steve, Host

dulnev · January 2005

"Honda and Toyota usually have a higher resale based on factory MSRP but when compared to actual selling prices, the depreciation on most vehicles is about the same percentage of actual purchase price when new (if the buyer is alert)."

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried! You're attemtpting to make generalizing statements based on couple observations from friends. Resale value statistics are unbiased and are based on hundreds of thousands of observations!

Personally I've experienced great resale values for Acura and Honda cars and poor resale on our Mazda minivan. But that's just my personal experience and it would be wrong for me to make any generic conclusions based on them.

hansienna · January 2005

Paid $14,000 last summer for a minivan with MSRP close to $29,000 but purchased by original owner for $24,000.

     Actual depreciation for original owner was $10,000.

     Edmunds now lists my 02 T&C at $16,672 Retail and $13,164 Trade-in.

     2002 Ody EX same miles Trade-in $17,099 Retail $20,608. The 02 Ody EX had an MSRP of about $27,000 and many sold for above MSRP.

     Using MSRP, the 02 Ody depreciated about $10,000 while the 02 T&C LX depreciated $10,836 using Edmunds reliable pricing for each.

     Considering the higher sales tax and extra interest on the $3,000 more original cost of the Ody EX, the net difference is about $500 in 3 years. Small price to pay for having the many nice features my T&C has that are not on the Ody EX (Quiet ride, quality stereo, overhead console with temperature/compass and reliable Trip Computer). The Ody EX has nice cast wheels, the nice "Magic Seat" that I do not have and power sliding doors that I do not want.

stever · January 2005

Surely y'all have seen my links to True Cost to Own, which shows depreciation for the first five years of ownership?

True Cost to Own

Or just drive them forever and it won't matter (unless your van gets totalled in the first few years of ownership).

Steve, Host

stever · January 2005

When I bought in '98, I got quotes on a Sienna, Odyssey and the Quest. I drove Windstars and Caravans but never got to the numbers stage with them. I didn't test GM and the MPV was still in the SUV variation. I actually wrote a check for a '99 Ody LX but walked after the dealer started gaming me. So, 100,100 miles later:

My Quest value: $5,175 (private party, average condition - needs CV boot, plugs, timing belt, hoses etc.).

The '99 LX value: $6,862

The '99 Sienna value: $7,385 (the SE, since we wanted dual sliders)

The Ody was going to cost me ~$2k more that I wound up paying for the Quest. So it looks like a wash but TCO takes purchase price into account so I really am down ~$1,500. But when your ride gets over 100,000 miles, it's not going to be worth much period.

Now I need to call my insurance company and drop the collision.

Steve, Host

hansienna · January 2005

Thanks Steve. Edmunds TCO shows my 2002 T&C LX TCO of $30,308 for 5 years while a 2002 Ody EX has TCO of $32,031.

    02 T&C LX will cost 40 cents a mile while the 02 Ody EX will cost 43 cents a mile. (15,000 miles per year).

    Ody depreciation will be MORE at $8247 vs $7827 and will cost MORE in maintenance at $4953 vs $4511.

    By comparison, the 02 Quest will cost 39 cents per mile and an 02 Sienna 41 cents per mile.

    Edmunds TCO indicates Steve was the smartest buyer with a Quest while my T&C will cost less than either the Ody or Sienna.

stever · January 2005

It's fun playing with the book numbers. I'm sure Isell can point us to a used car lot with a '99 Ody with 110,000 miles on it that's listed for $11,000. And there's probably a buyer for it somewhere. :-)

Steve, Host

ypresia · January 2005

Not sure if T&C LX is comparable to Odyssey EX..

A bigger thing is that the tool shows the TCO of a 2002 model you buy used now, not a comparison between two new 2002 minivans. After a few years, you'd expect the repairs and the rest of that to be factored into the price of a newly-purchased used car.

If you go to new 2005 models, there is a slight difference in TCO between the Odyssey and the T&C. Mostly in fuel and depreciation, iirc.

isellhondas · January 2005

When someone not in the business knows more than I do.

I give up...carry on...

hansienna · January 2005

When a person works for a new car dealership they are (and should be) biased toward the brand they sell.

Edmunds is a neutral automotive related business that prints the facts as they discover them.

Edmunds is probably the least biased of any source for data related to all makes and models of vehicles.

isellhondas · January 2005

Just reality. I deal with this everyday.

Do you?

hansienna · January 2005

Personally I trust the data compiled by Edmunds more than the opinions of any car dealer or salesman.

     I would be disappointed if you did not feel Honda is the best vehicle.

    If I can not trust Edmund's TCO data, why should I believe Edmunds when they wrote the 1999 Odyssey EX was the best minivan?

     I have driven my son's 2001 Ody EX and another son's 2002 GC Sport and now my 2002 T&C LX and both DC minivans are quieter and have a smoother ride than the 2001 Ody EX. The Ody EX has the most comfortable driver's seat. Each brand has advantages.

     The Odyssey retains the highest percentage of MSRP and has the most power but the DC minivans are quieter with a smoother ride.

hansienna · January 2005

My 2002 T&C LX has separately controlled temp for driver and front passenger; complete overhead console with compass/outside temp, trip computer; heating coils at base of windshield; lighted controls on doors; automatic locking doors while Ody EX has NONE of these nice items.

     2002 Ody EX has cast wheels, Magic Seat, power sliding doors that my T&C LX does not have.

     The Ody EX has the most cargo space behind 3rd row while the T&C LX is the quietest and smoothest riding. In real world driving, my gas mileage is considerably higher than his Ody EX.

     I have driven a 2001 Ody EX MANY times in addition to my 02 T&C LX and a 02 GC Sport (which is a clone).

     Each has advantages. I am happy that I paid about half for my nice, used 27,000 mile T&C than my son paid for his new Ody EX. He is happy with his Ody EX, I am happy with my T&C LX, and another son is happy with his GC Sport.

hansienna · January 2005

TCO is NOT a completely neutral analysis.

I just compared 2005 GC SXT with 2005 Ody EX and was surprised to see Edmunds had loaded up the GC SXT with many expensive options while using just the base Ody EX.

Subtracting the 10% additional expense of the loaded GC SXT would lower all expenses including financing, taxes, and amount of depreciation and the 2 vehicles would have almost the same TCO for 5 years.

canyon7407 · January 2005

"my gas mileage is considerably higher than his Ody EX" - sorry, I may be slow, but by higher do you mean worse or better gas mileage than the Ody EX? Curious because I am comparing Ody and T&C/DC.

Also, on the thread about depreciation I think Isell hit the key when he said "hard to find" gets book value. High miles don't. I am looking to trade my '02 Ody EX with high mileage for preferably '05 Ody EX-L or possible '04/'05 T&C. But since I have high miles my two trade in quotes so far have been 2-3,000 under KBB trade in even with the high miles adjustment in KBB! So if the mileage adjustment is in Edmunds, KBB, NADA, why is real world so much lower?

hansienna · January 2005

01 Ody EX has been giving 20 to 21 MPG on trips and 02 T&C LX has been giving 25-27 MPG on trips.

    Driving habits of my son vs my habits could cause the much better gas mileage of the T&C. I think each would deliver about the same if driven by the same driver on the same road.

    Since you have an 02 Ody EX, I would suggest you get another Ody even though I like my T&C. Both Edmunds and KBB claim the Ody retains a higher percentage of new price.

    Altho Edmunds does not permit negotiating with car salesmen in the Town Hall, maybe you could e-mail isell the mileage data on your 02 Ody EX to request trading your 02 Ody EX on a new 2005 Ody EX-L from his dealership. Hondas may have a much higher trade in value in his area than where you live.

isellhondas · January 2005

Please...keep me out of this.

just4fun2 · January 2005

Once you purchase the new vehicle, the salesman doesn't know you! Come on, help a fellow Ody buyer out.

hansienna · January 2005

Has the darling of CR and other magazines lost its luster?

    When a Honda dealer is not interested in taking an Odyssey in on a trade for a newer Odyssey, it appears the Odyssey is now just another normal vehicle.

    Is the "Stow-N-Go" introduction the reason few people are now defending the Odyssey against Chrysler and Dodge? OR, have many prospective Odyssey buyers switched to the Toyota Sienna? OR, have many prospective Odyssey buyers like myself purchased a used Chrysler minivan because of the quick drop in resale of a new Chrysler minivan?

    Where are all the posters for this forum?

marine2 · January 2005

Drop in resale of the Dodge mini van didn't bother me at all. I will wind up keeping this van for at least 7-8 years. By that time, it makes little difference what your trading in.

I just thought with the discount price they are selling for, the features it has on it and the smooth, quiet ride it has, you just couldn't beat it for the money. The new stow and go seats also played a big part in my decision. It was just an unbeatable value. Plus, I got 60 months at 0% financing.

denver5357 · January 2005

Is there an original post this refers back to? Because otherwise I am unsure what you are doing, other than musing to yourself based on your own opinion.

isellhondas · January 2005

What he is talking about?

just4fun2 · January 2005

What is he talking about???? Read post 2966!!!

The part that has a reference to you.

isellhondas · January 2005

High miles KILL the value of a car. The "books" may say to deduct 1000.00 for high miles but in reality the deduction needs to be more.

Even at deeply discounted prices most buyers are scared of high miles. More so on some makes than on others.

Is that what you meant?

denver5357 · January 2005

I still don't get it. That post is about mileage, and occurs before the post I (and I think Isell) asked about, which was:

"Has the darling of CR and other magazines lost its luster?

    When a Honda dealer is not interested in taking an Odyssey in on a trade for a newer Odyssey, it appears the Odyssey is now just another normal vehicle.

    Is the "Stow-N-Go" introduction the reason few people are now defending the Odyssey against Chrysler and Dodge? OR, have many prospective Odyssey buyers switched to the Toyota Sienna? OR, have many prospective Odyssey buyers like myself purchased a used Chrysler minivan because of the quick drop in resale of a new Chrysler minivan?

    Where are all the posters for this forum?"

I don't understand what he means here, other than thinking out loud his own views.I feel like I might respond, but I don't know what this post refers to.

tranmi · January 2005

You are right. Compare the high mileage vans, you may have to pay more for the Odyssey. Why? I have the 99 Odyssey and it has over 102,000. miles on it. Trade in value is around $7,000. Compare to the DC van, the trade in is around $5,000. However, I paid full price for my and had to wait 3 months for my. DC owners got a fat rebate ($2000-$3000)plus dealer discount and did not have to wait for their van at that time. My van got all kind of problems: transmission, rattles everywhere..., ERG (out of warranty), 2 clock lights, center brake light and now the catalytic converter. No more Odyssey for me. Town and Country is going to be my next van.

marine2 · January 2005

When you stop and think of the discount price of the Dodge/Chrysler over the Honda,with 0% financing. Plus the smoother, quieter ride. The features Honda doesn't offer on their vans or only offer it at a higher price, like stow and go seating, better radio and speakers,battery saver, overhead console,electric back wing windows,electric rear hatch. I think Dodge/Chrysler has a big advantage on Honda/Toyota.

While the Honda has a more refined engine, it doesn't get hardly any better gas mileage than the Chrysler vans and is only a second or two faster. One big feature they do have is standard side air bags.

The big advantage Honda has on Chrysler/Dodge in trade in value seems highest in the first 2-3 years of ownership. After that, the gap narrows. If many are like me, that took out a five year loan, trade in isn't going to be that much difference. A few thousand dollars. Which is more than made up in the discount price and 0% financing.

marine2 · January 2005

While people would like to slam Chrysler reliability problems. Take into consideration that Chrysler has been building vans much longer than anyone else and there a millions more on the road than any other make.

Then just look at the board right here. People answering Honda Odyssey problems and solutions has 3,973 posts. People answering Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge problems is 2,443. If you add the thread asking about Chrysler transmission problems to that, you still have only 3,190 posts. That's still 783 less, with millions more and older vans on the road than Honda has. Honda has also had two recalls in the last two years on their fuel pumps and transmissions. How many more complaints would Honda have if they had as many vans on the road as Chrysler has? Especially older vans.

ypresia · January 2005

Message board counts don't really mean anything. For general trends, going by Consumer Reports' reliability ratings rather than those numbers makes a lot more sense. And, a full review of minivans come out next month.

marine2 · January 2005

And we maybe able to see how reliable C.R.is when we see how they rate Honda's tranny, noise and door problems that many on here have complained about.

dulnev · January 2005

"While people would like to slam Chrysler reliability problems. Take into consideration that Chrysler has been building vans much longer than anyone else and there a millions more on the road than any other make.

Then just look at the board right here. People answering Honda Odyssey problems and solutions has 3,973 posts. People answering Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge problems is 2,443."

That's easy to explain: people who drive Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge vans can't read or write ;-)

Seriously though, there is definitelly a different demographics of American van buyers vs. Japanese ones. I would bet my life that there are more Internet users (as a percentage) among Japanese car buyer. Also, people who use Internet to research vans are going to be much more likely to buy Japanese vans based on the information they find. These two selection biases probably account for what you've observed.

dulnev · January 2005

"And we maybe able to see how reliable C.R.is when we see how they rate Honda's tranny, noise and door problems that many on here have complained about."

It's already been factored in their ratings. You will notice that 2005 Odyssey does not have the highest Expected Reliability rating (it's a half-red circle instead of full red).

ypresia · January 2005

Since C.R.'s reliability reports are based on surveys of owners, it's a a better way of comparing the extent of the problems of between models. One person can make 500 posts on a problem. Asking 500 people would be a better way to see how common a problem is.

I think the Town & Country will wind up being average reliability while the Odyssey will be above average. (While Toyota will get an excellent.)

macakava · January 2005

Sienna- Red Dot

Ody - Half Red Dot

Quest - White to Half Red Dot

DGC & T & C - Half Black Dot to White/Clear Dot

marine2 · January 2005

"Sienna- Red Dot

Ody - Half Red Dot

Quest - White to Half Red Dot

DGC & T & C - Half Black Dot to White/Clear Dot"

Not sure where you got that. The last two years put out by C.R. 02-03, the Dodge/Chrysler did not have a half black dot on any of the of the things they were judged on. As a matter of fact, the Dodge didn't even go down to a clear dot, meaning average, on the 03's

dulnev · January 2005

"Not sure where you got that. The last two years put out by C.R. 02-03, the Dodge/Chrysler did not have a half black dot on any of the of the things they were judged on. As a matter of fact, the Dodge didn't even go down to a clear dot, meaning average, on the 03's"

I'm not sure what he was looking at either. For current models here's what I see in the "Predicted Reliability" measure:

Odyssey: Half red dot ("Very Good")

Sienna: Half red dot ("Very Good")

Quest: black dot ("Poor")

T&C: Clear dot ("Good")

Dodge GC: Clear dot ("Good")

etoileb · January 2005

I'm not sure that logic prevails.

It's like saying that if the "Dodge/Chrysler Prices Paid & Buying Experience" has only 33 posts on it and the equivalent board for "Honda Odyssey" has 8323 posts on it, then Honda Odyssey's must be outselling Dodge/Chrysler by some 25x.

As an impartial observer of these forums, I would say that the only thing one can concude is that "in general the Toyota/Honda owners use the internet more than the Dodge/Chrysler owners".

masterpaul1 · January 2005

Interesting logic. This is the logic that I use. Daimlerchrysler invented the minivan over 20 yrs ago and still out sells all other brands every year. (No body has ever out sold Daimlerchrysler in minivans as far as I know.) Maybe the reason for the low posts in the "Dodge/Chrysler Prices Paid & Buying Experience" is really because, there is nothing to inform people about since mostly everybody knows that you can buy both new and used Daimlerchrysler minivans for a very good price below MSRP. On the other hand. With the Ody's Prices Paid & Buying Experience having so many posts, might only mean that for a high priced van to be purchase at or below MSRP is something to tell everyone about. (Since they have been over priced, in my opinion, over the years with less options compared to the competition.) Another thing to remember about the Ody, is that in the past, they couldn't keep up with the demand. So a lot of people where posting about their deposit and wait time. (Not going to happen with a Daimlerchrysler minivan). I notice reading in these forums, that it seems like Ody. and Sienna owners are trying to prove that their minivans are superior over Daimlerchrysler minivans buy trashing the current Daimlerchrysler minivans reliability buy comparing them to the pre 2000 model years. I believe that, as a Daimlerchrysler owners, we do not have to prove that are minivans are superior to the competition. Yes, the Sienna and Ody. are great minivans and offer certain things that Daimlerchrysler's minivans don't. But same can be said for Daimlerchrysler. As a Daimlerchrysler owner, we just try to correct the untruths that are being spread about are vechicles that we know are not true. Another thing that you should consider, just because a forum has a certain number of post doesn't mean that everybody in that post only said one thing. You will find people posting in the same forum multiple times. (I do it) So your logic has no truth behind it. Find one or two names in any forum and do a search in that forum only. You will see just how many times a person might post.

etoileb · January 2005

I know where you're going with this...but honestly I think you're reading too much into my post.

Why would anyone assume that there is positive correlation between the number of posts on "problems" and those on the respective vehicles - and a negative correlation between the number of posts on "prices paid" and the very same vehicles? You've got to admit, no bookie would give you odd on that type of contrived scenario!

As I said earlier, the only things the number of posts proves is that Honda/Toyota owners use the internet (or more precisely these forums) more than Dodge/Chrysler users - both to vent their spleen and to pat each other on the back.

QED

stever · January 2005

Maybe the DC owners are here in vaster numbers, but they prefer to lurk?

(maybe they don't need reassurance about their choice or maybe they have nothing to prove, lol).

Steve, Host

dulnev · January 2005

"Ody. and Sienna owners are trying to prove that their minivans are superior over Daimlerchrysler minivans..."

No one is "trying" to prove such a thing because it doesn't need to be proven. Every single authoritative source of information on automobiles says so! The Consumer Reports, Car & Driver magazine and any other automotive magazine, etc. The fact that Odyssey and Sienna are WAY superior to Daimler Chrysler minivans is just that: FACT. If you feel differently, it's just your opinion not substantiated by facts.

marine2 · January 2005

I will not doubt your claim that Honda and Toyota mini vans are superior to Daimler Chrysler vans. But to say they are way superior is an over exaggeration.

Even taking into account that there maybe more Honda and Toyota people using this forum to talk about their vans than Chrysler/Dodge owners. You only have to listen to what owners are saying about the troubles between the vans.

How many Chrysler/Dodge owners that have vans that are 1-4 years old are complaining of tranny problems? I have only read one post of a C/D owner complaining of the driver's seat being uncomfortable. I haven't heard any complaints on them having a hard ride, rattles or wind noise. None have complained of the radios or cheap speakers in their vans. And only a couple of complaints of doors not working.

So to say the Toyota and Honda is way superior than the C/D, I think is way out of line and doesn't come close to the truth. If the Honda and Toyota were that much better, they wouldn't be so many complaints on the same things all the time. And your talking about fairly new vans.

kfdmed · January 2005

No way are the hondas and toyotas FAR superior. It is not a FACT.The difference is marginal at best. That was a terribly inaccurate post ... do you work for the Bush administration?

dulnev · January 2005

Marginal at best? Let's look at the Consumer Reports view on Odyssey and Town & COuntry, shall we? The former one is rated "Excellent" overall, while the latter is "Good"; that's two grade levels down from Excellent.

In various subcategories of ratings (such as braking, handling, ergonomics, etc.) I counted the total of each grade of rating (Excellent, Very Good, etc.). Here's the summary:

Excellent Ratings:

Ody: 3

T&C: NONE

Very Good Ratings:

Ody: 10

T&C: 7

Good Ratings:

Ody: 1

T&C: 8

Fair Ratings:

Ody: 1

T&C: NONE

Poor Ratings:

Ody: NONE

T&C: 1

I don't know about you, but I would call it FAR better. And that's just CR. I subscribe to Car & Driver and Odyssey and Sienna always take #1 and #2 spots; unfortunatelly I don't keep previous issues and can't report on the numerical ratings they assign to each van.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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