Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Irv Gordon's Classic Volvo

124

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Only iron engine parts I suspect. Other methods are pressure testing for heads and penetration dye testing of various types.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    As of this writing, Irv should be heading back to the States now, after driving his car in Europe for the past month or so. He was expected to add another 5,000 miles to the 25,000 or so that he has driven since turning 2 million in late March. He also remarked in a recent articles that he gave his P1800 yet another paint job; its fifth.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Must be getting heavy, that car.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Well, if GM can use "structural adhesive" then Irv can use "structural paint".
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Was the B18 engine first installed in the 544 and 120 when they first came to the U.S. around '58-'59, or did it come later when the P1800 arrived?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The B16 was the first engine. 3-bearings, whippy crankshaft, not the best.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    Came first in the P1800 in '61. It was then introduced in the other models the following year.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    great engine, the B18, if you took even basic care of it. Certainly one of the beest 4-cylinder engines ever made.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Did the B18 use the dual SU carbs from the start? I know that it wasn't the greatest performer to begin with when compared to, say, Jags or Alfas.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    The B16 was by no means the first engine. Immideately prior to the B16, Volvo had the B14, which was for all intents and purposes the same engine, just with smaller displacement. The B14 was in turn a development of the B4B, which was the engine the first PV444 came out with. It made a whopping 40 horses, and it was also a 1.4 liter monster engine. ;^)
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    In the US, yes. The first B18 here was a pretty lame (relatively speaking) engine. It had the same "A" cam, low compresion, and didn't perform much better than the B18A sold in EU.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Never meant to imply the B16 was the first engine, just that it was predecessor to the B18 in the 544 model, which was the model he asked about.

    I've seen a single carb engine, but I can't recall if it was a B16 or B18. The carb was not an SU, but some obscure Zenith or Solex. One time for that very car I put on a carb from a Rambler 6 cylinder, re-jetted it, and the old Volvo ran better than ever.

    The B18s in the 122 model were pretty lively engines for their size, and with a B20E head, good ignition, rebuilt SUs and a decent camshaft (Volvo camshafts of that era were very soft and degraded the performance of the engine over time) they ran out very smartly indeed.

    You could hardly ask for a simpler, sturdier 4 cylinder engine.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Oh, yeah, I've also found out that later 1800Es could be had with Borg-Warner 3-speed automatics. Wasn't B-W known at one time for making some of the least durable transmissions in the world?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    It's interesting that Borg Warner made both automatics and manuals. I had their two-speed automatic in a '56 Stude and later had their T-10 four speed (also available in later Stude Hawks) in a '61 Chevy.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Now, as for the B20, I have seen one of those engines in real life. The only B18 I've ever seen was Irv's, but that was on TV during the Tonight Show. The B20, while still OHV, was just an enlarged B18 with better internal parts, right?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    don't know about the internals, maybe amazon would know. I always thought it just had bigger displacement and larger valves. Same crummy camshaft.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    THe main difference is in the bore. The engine was also improved throughout the years with different crankshaft seals, pistons, connecting rods, etc. Just about all parts are interchangable.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Is the crankshaft made of some soft material that I should know something about? Maybe that's the reason they all broke early.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    The crankshafts in the later B20s were stronger than in the early B18s. That's really all I know.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I never heard of crankshaft problems with the B18. I have ever seen or even heard second hand of a blown up B18 engine. I've seen bad camshafts and stripped timing gears, but never saw a rod out of a B18 engine in a wrecking yard. The lower end of a B18 is about the last thing I'd worry about.

    The B16 crank could snap, however. Sometimes you wouldn't even know except for the bad noise you heard at the crack as the crank spun around. But the engine would still run okay until the break was so big the two halves of the crank would spin apart.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    What I would focus my attention on, for durability, are the following items:

    1) Install Steel timing Gear
    2) Replace the old filt type with the later type of crankshaft seals.
    3) Upgrade to a newer and bigger camshaft.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Great ideas. You meant "felt" crankshaft seal, right?

    Also I'd machine an improved bracket system for the generators. They wobble. And throw away the P1800 engine oil cooler. All it does is leak and it couldn't cool a mouse's toes.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    I meant "felt", yes.

    I havesn't heard of or experienced any problems with the generator brackets. Did those vehicles you've seen this phenomenon on have AC?

    I really don't have any experiene with the oil cooler. I do know that in Sweden, those are sought after, collectible options. Don't throw them away, in other words.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, I can see keeping the oil cooler, but putting it back on the car is pretty ridiculous. It is so tiny in surface area and so remote from any air flow that it is obviously of no use except to get in the way, or drain all your oil out on the highway. I can't imagine what the engineers were thinking on that one. I can only assume that anyone wanting one of these didn't know it doesn't cool the engine oil. The oil cooler on an MGB is about 4 times the size and sits right out in front of the radiator, just behind the grillwork.

    The lower generator bracket holes on the B18 elongate and the securing bolt can't tighten the generator down. So people try to tighten the generator with the top bolt that holds the swivel, and invariably end up either snapping the bolt off in the head, or creating so much tension on the belt as to ruin the water pump bearing.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    All I can say is that I've never seen or heard of those problems. I just tightened both bolts. No problem. Never had any problems with the water pump either.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've replaced barrels-full of both of them in the past. Chronic problems. The water pump issues were either related to the generator issue (belt too tight); also the remanufactured water pumps for the B18 are often cheaply done, with inferior bearing material. It's good to check where the reman pump comes from -- that's most of the problem, not the design itself.

    The generator hold-down is just a clunky design that is susceptible to damage if the bolts get loose or rusty. The holes the bolts slip through elongate due to vibration.

    If you are really on top of the B18 engine in your car you won't see these things. By now, these old Volvos are owned by enthusiasts, not the spaced-out Volvo owners of the 1960s. So many the issues aren't issues anymore.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Just read that the first Volvos imported to the U.S. back in '56 (the 444s) used the B14 engine for one year only. That's just like the B16, right, where the crankshaft will whip around and break?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't know a thing about the B14, so can't help you there. I sure like the looks of the 444, though, with that split windshield. A 444 wagon with B20E engine, IPD cam, big SUs and overdrive would be a great surfing car.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    As I like to say; the 444 would sure be a very inviting and fun car to have.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Also, it's been mentioned many times that the steering on old Volvos was very heavy; it's also obvious there was no power assist in those days. But, I'm assuming their steering was much quicker and more precise than, say, an old Buick or Mercury?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think, if I recall correctly, that the 444 and 544 steering wasn't very heavy at all. It's when the cars got heavier and the tires got fatter, like in the 140 series, that Volvos started to feel like locomotives. I guess the 240 was the first with power steering? A Volvo 140, when parking, steers like a 1930s American car.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Yes, the 240 was the first with power steering, but they, and the following 740s/940s do steer like old American cars; very heavy and trucklike. No fun at all and very disappointing. In comparison, my 850 steers very precisely, like a Miata.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    WEll, the joke back then in the 70s and 80s was that "Volvo built cars for people who hated cars but needed to drive somewhere".
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    There were 140's and 160's with Power Steering also. THe 140's were rare, though.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    This engine didn't have enough HP or torque to hurt even that crank.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Want the complete, entire story on Irv and his car? There's an excellent article about him in the Dec. issue of Classic & Sports Car, a great British publication I read on occasion. Here are a couple of Irv quotes from that article:

    "I've paid for all my parts, all my gasoline, all my servicing: no discounts."

    "The Smiths gauges, I've probably had repaired or replaced numerous times."

    "The transmission seals and 3rd gear synchro have been replaced and the overdrive has been stripped and clean, but that's all."
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, I've stripped down those overdrives and it's tough! The quote makes it sound like a 20 minute job but it's a bear to do.

    The Smiths gauges on a Volvo P1800 are a very bad joke.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Per many comments made on this board about the safety of old cars, is a '66 Volvo still a safe automobile, or at least really safe compared to many other cars of that same year?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a strong little car but back them other cars were mostly larger, so I think the billiard ball rule applies....if Ball A weighing 4,000 lbs stirkes Ball B weighing 2,500 lbs, Ball B is going to go flying off somewhere. I guess it depends on what hits your Volvo and what happens to your body as it flying around among all those little pointy things in the dashboard. I'd rather take the hit in the Volvo P1800 than the VW Bug of that era, but if I had a Cadillac Deville, I'd rather take the hit in that.
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    Agree with shifty. When the 140 came out in august '66, the big new safety feature was the crumble (sp?) zones. Having been rear ended on I-76 yesterday, that's a big safety improvement.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    You were rear-ended yesterday? I'm really sorry to hear that. Were you in your Volvo?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gee, that's too bad, sorry to hear that. Somebody asleep at the wheel behind you?
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    I was driving on business from Central Ohio to a little hole in the wall north of Pittsburgh, PA. It was 6:40 AM and the traffic didn't move due to an accident ahead, so I stopped. All of a sudden I heard tires squeeling and a big bang. I stepped out of the car (a '98 Intrigue- company car) to see what the damage was. The whole rear end was pretty much gone. The girl driving her Jeep Liberty said that she was doing about 55MPH at the time. She didn't realize that I wasn't moving at all. I guess she thought that I had only slowed down.

    BTW, I sold the Volvo ('00 S70)last February due to quality problems, and bought an '03 Acura TL instead. Accidents like this do put things in a different perspective, however. Was selling the Volvo a mistake? I only have a sore neck now, so I think I came out OK after all.

    Thanks for asking.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Central Ohio ?

    The company I used to work for was in Washington Court House before it moved to Columbus.

    I remember those two lanes and some horrific accidents.

    Glad you didn't get hurt!
  • amazonamazon Member Posts: 293
    Cool! Yes, those two lane roads ca be deadly.... Didi you live in Ohio too?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Just had the pleasure of flying in for corporate meetings four or five times a year.
  • esommeresommer Member Posts: 24
    I came across a 1967 122S for sale this weekend. I don't know a lot about this particular model. The car started right up without smoke, ran great and was surprisingly smooth on the road. I'm looking for information about fair market value, known problems, issues or concerns and availability of parts for restoration. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Great little car, but don't buy an automatic if that's what it is. The automatics have a dreadful Borg Warner transmission that ruins the car and makes it drive like a garbage truck.

    Otherwise, value depends mostly on cosmetics, since bodywork and upholstery is ten times more expensive than the simple mechanicals of the car.

    Mechanical parts are no problem to find, and there are even performance parts for this car, but little chrome trim pieces, lenses or grillwork could be costly and hard to locate.

    It's not a very valuable car nor will it ever be. I'd say $1,500 for a tired running car with some dents and holes in the carpets, $2,500 for a clean daily driver with a few small needs, and $5,000 for a stunning better than new show car.

    Issues include weak water pumps that leak,(grab the fan at 3 & 9 o'clock and wiggle it and see if the water pump shaft moves) exhaust systems that break their rubber doughnut hangers and fall off,(see if doughnuts are cracked and ready to let llose) bad rear brakes caused by the fact that the rear drums are a real pain to get off to check the brakes (low pedal, noise in rear drums). The power brake booster can fail (you'll feel a very hard pedal but little stopping power) and are *very* expensive to rebuild. Timing gears are one steel, one fiber, running on a chain, and they can get rather noisy and sloppy. You can check those by wiggling the fan and belt and seeing if the rotor in the distributor moves as the pulley moves. If the pulley moves 1/2 inch but the rotor doesn't move, then your gears are sloppy. The car won't run right. Sooner or later the fiber gear will break its teeth off.

    Engine bottom end is indestructible. Valve clatter up top is pretty normal. If car seems gutless, probably cause (after tune-up) is worn camshaft, as factory shafts are very soft and a known defect. So watch for this on a low mileage original car that might still have a factory cam in it).

    But basically this is a tough simple little car that isn't hard to work on at all. Some people don't like the SU type carburetors but that's only because they don't understand them. Their biggest problem is worn throttle shafts, so they leak air into the engine, and this causes an erratic idle. Solution is to rebore both throttle shafts.

    But again, take a pass on the automatic transmission, you won't be happy.

    And ALWAYS use high test gasoline at all times!

    Overall, a tough, fun, affordable old hobby car that can be driven daily.
  • esommeresommer Member Posts: 24
    Thanks for the info. Unfortunately this car is an automatic. Seemed to shift fine, just a bit abrupt. I would categorize this car as a clean daily driver with a few small needs. The person selling the car is firm at $3500. Based on your $2500 estimate and automatic transmission warning I will pass on this one. Thanks again
  • esommeresommer Member Posts: 24
    We are currently restoring an 83' 242T. The car seems to have fuel system issues. Are there kits available to rebuild this mechanical fuel injection system? Any info greatly appreciated! Thanks.
This discussion has been closed.