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Honda's Hybrid

flickaflicka Member Posts: 1
edited March 2014 in Honda
Honda's Hybrid? Give me a break. If you do the gasoline math at $1.25 a gallon you will see that it will take you over 100,000 miles of operation to recover your additional $4,000 Hybrid option. This does not even include the "EXTRA" HYBRID maintenance costs that even Honda won't comment on. And if you think you are helping to save the planet with your hybrid, you need to get a life. If you want greater mileage for thousands less consider a VW diesel Jetta or Golf. The new turbo-direct-injection diesels are cleaner than some gasoline models and they can get 42/50 MPG respectfully. Save money, save time, and "Oh Yes" save the planet with a diesel...
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Comments

  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    cannot be justified by economics. The concept is sound but the present price IS too high even though subsidized by the manufacturers. Only government intervention in the market (e.g CAFE, CARB requirements, incentives, etc.) can make the economics work at this point in hybrid development. But that will be the case for any emerging technology.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    The big thing that would concern me about a Hybrid at this point is replacing the battery in 5 or 6 years. Hopefully, the cost would have gone way down by that point, but it's still not going to be like going to Sears for a new $59.99 Diehard.

    Like we've discussed before, the hybrids really can't be justified right now on pure economics. They are more for people who can afford to be on the "leading edge".
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    If the true cost of gas was only $ 1.25 we'd have it made, but of corse its heavy subsidized, the battery pack (not the 12v battery) has a 8 year 80,000 mile warranty so worrying about having to replace it 6 years down the road shouldn't be an issue. http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/49260/article.html
    Sure hope the Escape hybrid http://www.hybridford.com will have a extra long warranty on its battery pack, but I don't know. FoMoCo has a big opperutinity here if they don't blow it.
  • timadamstimadams Member Posts: 294
    Gasoline is subsidized? How?

    And if you start going into emmissions and pollution, consider how clean modern engines burn as well as how to dispose of an electric/hybrid car's batteries.
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    Here's a rough estimate of the difference (...again its a rough estimate ok so don't shoot me).

    Edmunds prices out a manual Honda Civic EX (which is the starting point for the Civic Hybrid) to:

    $16,974

    The Hybrid Civic also has the additional features:

    - Auto climate control
    - Electronic Brake distribution
    - Keyless entry
    - Electric power steering

    If you go for an automatic add $750 to that so lets just round that up to say..
    $18,000


    The Hybrid on the other hand is promised to be less that $20,000.

    I would think that'd apply both for the manual and CVT, so for arguments sake set than to $20,000.


    Even if we give or take $500 for inaccuracies that is still FAR from the $4,000 difference detractors like to mention. There is also a possible $1,500 to $2,000 tax break for the Civic Hybrid in the near future. Add to that the fuel savings and feel good factor (for some) and that isn't too bad.

    The Civic Hybrid will be coming out April yet.... so why not just wait a couple of months and see how it plays out?
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    The tax break would be the key. Also, I think I might want to lease it, and let someone else worry about replacing the battery when the car gets old.
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    I would probably lease it if i were to get one just to hedge my bet.

    On the other hand, i would really prefer a more practical vehicle hybrid than a civic. I'm hoping Toyota will put their hybrid engine in the Matrix. It IS small enough for a super efficient hybrid setup with CVT, it does look like it has the engine bay size, a 110 power outlet best served by a hybrid engine, and an AWD which could easily be converted to a front wheel gas with rear wheel electric motor drive hybrid for on the road AWD.

    But i digress... (-; that should be for another topic.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    may not apply while driving a 2700lb car with no more than 93HP available. Although the Civic Hybrid may have amenities comparable to an EX, I suspect the ANY other Civic will provide better performance. And leasing is hardly a solution to hybrid economics since leasing any car results in a very high cost/mile as compared to ownership for most cars and use cycles.
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    ..is for the more environmentally enclined, as in "i'm polluting the environment less" feel good factor. But even then the hybrid would probably a be a bit better than its common civic counterparts.

    Remember that from a stand still its the torque that matters not the hp. And contrary to common misconception, electric motors excel on that. A lot of pure electric cars achieve 0 to 60mph in stunning 4 to 6 seconds. If you look at the Ford Escape hybrid and the Dodge Durango hybrid, both perform better than their common counterparts. Hell, 93hp is actually better than Flicka's favorite 1.9 TDI engines. But because it has gobs of torque, it's no slug either.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Quite possibly, the battery disposal is already factored in by Honda. We don't know much about a lot of things about these cars and their components, so how can we really draw conclusions? The only things we can really talk about is whether they are practical or not, or if the technology has the potential to improve or not. And here is the torque curve. In the second graph, notice that under 4000 rpm, the Civic hybrid will perform far better than any other Civic (the comparison is with Civic LX). For around town driving, torque curve under 3500 rpm is all that really matters. To merge with freeway traffic, I feel the Civic hybrid would be adequate, not impressive.

    Hybrid technology isn't going to go mainstream in couple of years. Until then, trying out if you care is or would like to can't be thrown out the window. It is possible that this technology advances almost like computers did in the 90's, or it may be a flop. What is wrong with trying?

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. - Einstein
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    I think it will become more and more common over the next few years, and maybe will bridge the gap between today's conventional engines and the zero pollution hydrogen fuel cells in 20 years.

    My concern would still be with the battery pack. I'd hate to have a car 10 years from now that's worth maybe $4000, then the battery dies, and it needs a $2000 battery pack to run again. Yes, the price of the batteries should drop, but I don't think they'll ever be dirt cheap.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    And I'm pleased to see continued hybrid development. As I've said in other posts, I thinks that hybrids are the ONLY alternative technology to IC-only cars that is potentially viable in the near future. And, of course, any discussion of performance is speculative until independent road test data is available.

    While it is true that high starting/low-end torque will make a car easy to launch and feel quick at low speeds, Its overall performance will suffer if that torque cannot be sustained to sufficient speed. The CVT may help IF it is positively coupled to the engine(s), but if they use a torque converter, that advantage may be negated. We'll have to wait and see, but in any case, it is not likely to have performance comparable to a car of similar price.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Here is a Y2K imported oil link http://content.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990422S0023/ it says we (the US) import something like 56 percent of our oil with Saudi Arabia being one of the countries we count on, our dependency has increased since then, even GWB is saying we need to conserve which speaks volumes. http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news050202-05&category1=evcommunity
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    We're looking for any woman who has recently bought or driven a hybrid car.

    If you fit this description and care to share your input on the subject, please contact Kristen Gerencher at kgerencher@marketwatch.com or Jeannine Fallon at jfallon@edmunds.com by noon EST Tuesday, March 19.

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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Acura DNX to be showcased at NYAS. This car was showcased as Dual Note at Tokyo Motor Show.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    From what little I've seen and read of this concept it looks fantastic.....how can you not like 400hp combined w. fuel efficiency and Honda/Acura build quality.

    BUILD IT, and I will come.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda has announced the pricing. The MSRP is $19,550 for 5-speed (46/51 mpg) and $20,550 for CVT (48/47 mpg) and plans to sell 2000 units per month nationwide. There are no options with a long list of features.

    Side airbags, automatic climate control, ABS with EBD (electronic brake distribution), alloy wheels, AM/FM/CD, immobilizer etc. are standard.


    Digital and analog instrument gauge cluster with IMA system display, daytime and nighttime mode, and vehicle system performance meters.

    Upgraded interior with open head front restraints.

    1.3 liter 8 valve/I-4 SOHC iDSI (two spark plugs per cylinder) engine with second generation Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid system, 93 HP @ 5700 rpm and 116 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm.


    www.HondaNews.com

  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    whether adequate performance can be achieved in a 2700lb car with only 93hp. I'm also dismayed that it uses 185/70-14 tires, marginal at best for such a heavy car and a heavily loaded, 70 series suggests poor response. Since this is a size that has been nearly abandoned by the industry, it will be difficult to find good tires in this size. And there is still a substantial price premium over even a Civic EX.

    It will be interesting to see how the market responds.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Adequate performance as everyone knows is quite subjective, some want to be able to get a 3 rd gear scratch, others want to merge onto the freeway, the OEM tires don't sound great believe I'de change them out, IMO the car itself should sell well if big problem(s) don't crop up.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Civic Hybrid will be similar to diesels in execution. It has a near (peak) flat torque curve from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm. As long as the driving involves keeping the engine speed under 4500 rpm, this car is going to have excellent drivability. 0-60 and quarter mile acceleration will not be exciting though, just like it is with diesels.
    2700 lb. is not a big deal if the engine is geared right. The following will provide a clue to the shape of the torque curve,
    Civic Hybrid - Dyno
    It lacks top end power because the gasoline engine it is using is a 2-valve/cylinder configuration designed to perform only in low and mid-range, and electric motors are always at their best at low engine speeds. Combine them, and the effect is a sharply falling torque curve past the mid-range, hence lower power.
    As far as tire size goes, while adequate, they are not to be confused with performance. The side-wall size would be about 5.1 inch, just as much as it is in my 2000 Civic EX (same size tires), and 0.11 inch more than that in my Accord. Rolling resistance may have been one of the criteria to choose the tire size because when it comes to Honda, they often take pride in claiming that certain change added fuel efficiency by 1 or 2%, sounds amusing at times, but then, I can feel the accomplishments that those engineers must strive for.
    As far as price premium, I think Honda has tried to narrow the gap between regular Civics and the hybrid. These are the features that are not available in Civic EX,
    ABS (optional with manual transmission, standard with auto; standard in Hybrid)
    EBD (the Hybrid becomes the second Honda in America to offer electronic brake distribution as standard equipment)
    Automatic Climate Control (you get standard a/c in EX)
    Brushed aluminum interior (something I noticed at auto show)
    Alloy wheels (an option in EX)
    Side airbags (optional in EX, standard in Hybrid)
    Besides the new technology that comes with it. I would be curious about how it does in the market too, but my guess is, quite well. I'd really consider an Accord hybrid if Honda delivers one with the 2.4 liter engine and a larger electric motor. I hope they do over next couple of years.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    has the same performance expectations, but in this case, the conventional Civic establishes the competitive baseline and with a $3-4K price premium, the hybrid will need more than the "gee whiz" factor to capture a market. If fuel economy alone were a sufficient market encentive, the previous iterations of the HX should have been a runaway success since they did not have the cost penalty.

    Now, if Honda would upgrade the Insight with its second generation, 93hp, hybrid drive from the new Civic, they might pique my interest. Particularly if they offered a roadster version.
  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    to get a hybrid in 5 or 6 years - right now I am driving a '01 Corolla which I am very happy with - but gas mileage is a factor for me and the idea of getting 50 MPG sounds good - so I am waiting to see what's available in 5 or 6 years - as far as HP goes, I think that is highly over-rated - my previous car was a '86 Honda Civic which had 76 HP - I never had any problem passing anyone or getting out of anyone's way when necessary - hopefully in a few years there will be quite a few hybrids to chose from and the competition will drive down the cost -
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    unlike the hybrid, your '86 Civic didn't weigh 2700lbs. I had an '84 Civic with similar power as yours and it was adequately quick, but it only weighed 1950lbs!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
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    Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat takes place every Wednesday! (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us this week, March 27th, when our topic will be:


    Why My Next Car Will Be A Hybrid


    Or will it??


    Hope to see you there!


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  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    Hmmm - I didn't know that about my Honda's weight - I guess that would play a factor - I just saw a Toyota Prius today at Walgreens - I liked the looks of it except for the tires - they looked too small - anyone else think so?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I expect Civic Hybrid to be like VW Golf TDI in performance. The Civic has 93 HP (and weighs 2700 lb.) and the Golf TDI has 90 HP (and weighs 2900 lb.). The difference is in maximum torque from the engines, but after I checked the difference in gearing between the two vehicles, the shorter gearing in Civic negates any torque disadvantage.

    That said, Civic Hybrid will be better to drive around town compared to other Civics, as long as the driver doesn't try to explore revs beyond 4500 rpm for all out acceleration. My guesstimate on 0-60 for the Civic Hybrid is 11.5s with manual transmission.
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    I'm not sure why you believe that competition from other hybrids will drive down the cost. Competition already exists, its in the form of cheaper non-hybrids. Honda's profit margin on their hybrid Civic is probably less than on their other Civics which further reduces the likelihood of this car being discounted too heavily.

    I owned a 98' Corolla for almost 2 years and averaged close to 36mpg in mostly highway driving. I drove quite a bit, >18k miles per year. If instead I had a car that got 50mpg I would have saved about $150 a year in gas. This would have required me to keep this car 20 years to offset the $3k premium I had paid for the hybrid technology. While I agree that horsepower is overated so is paying 3k to save $150 a year. And this isn't even taking into consideration the battery replacement cost hybrid owners will incur.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But, is it really a $3K premium? I could just as well say that it is at a $6K premium over Civic DX, but the fact is, you are getting a different car, more equipment, a new technology. Honda could have just given it a different name!
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    Perhaps he should have said that it's AT LEAST a $3K premium.
  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    yes, I guess you are right about the competition already existing - I read that somewhere - that as more and more manufacturers produce hybrid cars that the cost will come down in time - about replacing the battery, the Toyota's battery in their Prius lasts for 100,000 miles - so replacement probably will not be an issue for most people - I drove my last car for 14 years and 7 months, so saving several hundred dollars on gas every year would add up...and even if it didn't save enough on gas to justify the cost difference, I'd still get one.
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    I agree that the cost would go down with higher production numbers.

    Hypothetically. What if it was possible to build a car like Honda's hybrid that was the same in every way (performance, efficiency, ammenities, price) with the exception that it did not incorporate hybrid technology. In today's market how popular would this vehicle be? My point is, I wonder if people are willing to pay this premium for the novelty rather than utility factor
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    may be enough for some few, initially, but when it's no longer novel, even they will demand utility (or they will patronize the next novelty).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Let us give it another perspective by saying that Civic Hybrid is $2K cheaper than Civic GX. And Dallas-Ft. Worth airport seems to have purchased/leased quite a few of them.

    As far as hybrid technology being a novelty goes, the fact is that even V6 is a novelty to many. It is generally more out of want than out of need. Performance requirements do vary from person to person, and $3K seems like quite a chunk of money in a car with MSRP under $20K, but in cars that cost $40K, $3K may not buy an option package. For some, it may be worth it, for others, it will not be.

    Cost will go down as volume goes up, and technology improves. I still remember my early days with computers when looking at the first PC with 286 left my eyes wide open. 40 MB hard disk was a big deal. Today, what do we get for $699? And Civic Hybrid is cheaper than Insight already.

    Snaphook:What if it was possible to build a car like Honda's hybrid that was the same in every way with the exception that it did not incorporate hybrid technology. In today's market how popular would this vehicle be?
    That's is a good point. If not exactly like it, Honda does offer a 5-door subcompact in Asia/Europe called Fit/Jazz. This car utilizes a new engine (the same power plant that is the primary motor in Civic Hybrid), designed with focus on fuel efficiency and emissions. Perhaps a better performer than Civic Hybrid as far as all out acceleration goes (a curb weight of only 2250 lb. helps), way cheaper too. The down side is that it uses an inferior version of the suspension setup (beam axle rear), and has lower equipment level. It is even rated at 23 km/liter in Japanese mode of fuel consumption testing (compared to 29.5 km/liter for Civic Hybrid)/ However, it does not showcase the possibilities for the future that Civic Hybrid does.
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    I'm not entirely sure that hybrid technology is any showcase of the future but rather a clever utilization of existing technology. The greatest benefit I see is its ability to recapture the kinetic energy that is lost in stop and go driving. It doesn't seem to offer all that much on the open road. But since stop and go driving is becoming more the norm (another issue altogether) hybrid vehicles might start making sense.

    As far as the hybrid Civic being cheaper than the GX, are they comparably equipped?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't think Civic GX is as well equipped as Civic Hybrid. Too bad, Honda's website is not ready yet to offer side by side comparisons with the Civic Hybrid.

    As for hybrid possibilities, think fuel cell. Yes, Honda's fuel cell prototype (as well as Ford's upcoming FCV Focus) uses hybrid technology. The fuel cell replaces the gasoline motor. However, until fuel cell becomes an acceptable solution, for the near term, I do see the potential for strides in hybrid technology, especially with regard to the recharging process. What do you think about 100% electric power and 50% gasoline power, with half of the gasoline engine actually working as electricity generator and continuously recharging the batteries?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    image


    Just a reminder that the Town Hall chat is tonight (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern). Hope you can join us tonight, March 27th, when our topic will be:


    Why My Next Car Will Be A Hybrid


    Or will it??


    Hope to see you there!


    http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html




    PF Flyer

    Host

    Pickups & News & Views Message Boards

  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    The idea of recapturing the energy lost during decelaration is a good idea regardless of what type of vehicle your talking about or for that matter any mode of transportation. If the mechanism to achieve this can be added to a car in an unintrusive way I suspect eventually all cars will posess this technology, even fuel cell. Although if "hybrid" refers to the combination of electric and internal combustion power I don't think fuel cell vehicles could accurately be described as hybrids.

    What I don't understand is why all these hybrid cars seem to be in the subcompact class. The energy lost when breaking is a function of mass. Therefore larger vehicles seem like they would be more appropriate platforms for showcasing the benefits of a hybrid. Just look at the disparity between city and highway mileage in a subcompact compared to a full sized vehicle.

    I'm not sure how much further we can go in the efficiency of the charging process. But I think there are gains to be made in the direction of reducing the size of the components involved.

    Using gasoline to generate electricity is one of the paths already being developed for fuel cell vehicles. My understanding is that Hydrogen needed for the fuel cell can be extracted from gasoline or methanol through a chemical process that requires no energy. The beauty of this is we could have vehicles powered by electric motors which are more efficient than IC engines while using the same infrastructure (gas stations) to recharge.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Supposedly GM will have a hybrid full-size pickup truck in 2004
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    snaphook
    The term hybrid is valid for any of the following combinations, gasoline-electric, diesel-electric or even fuel cell-electric. Instead of gasoline or diesel engine supplying energy to the electric motor, it is the fuel cell stack that does the job. This is the way Honda's fuel cell prototype (currently called FC-V4) works.

    As far as current hybrid cars being in the sub-compact class, it is probably about experimenting with new ideas applied on a smaller scale and with lower costs. As far as greater mass contributing towards greater energy towards recharging process, you have to also take into consideration that greater mass will also require greater energy to get going. So it may even out.

    I have a feeling that recharging process can be improved drastically. In fact, using only regenerative braking to recharge a battery pack for a 13 HP, 36 lb.-ft DC motor is impressive enough for me. As for reducing size of the components, looks like that was one of the intentions during the transition from Insight to Civic Hybrid, getting similar output from a smaller pack. Obviously, smaller pack would also improve recharging efficiency.

    I like the idea of electric motor driving the vehicle with gasoline/diesel/CNG/fuel cell etc. being used as on-board generators.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    WILL require more energy to accelerate as well as provide more kinetic energy to recover, but it does NOT "even out". More to the point ALL of that kinetic energy must initially come from the fuel (whether gas/diesel/hydrogen/nuclear/whatever), unless your destination is always at a lower elevation than your origin and/or you always have a tailwind. Further, all of the energy conversions, whether for acceleration or recovery, are imperfect and produce losses (waste energy) so that mass is NOT an asset.
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    I realize that larger vehicles require more energy to accelerate . That's where this energy came from that you are now trying to recapture during deceleration. That is kind of my whole point. Why focus your efforts on recapturing energy from the type of vehicle that didn't use as much to begin with? I agree with daysailer that due to parasitic forces you will never be able to get back all the energy that was originally expended getting you up to speed. If you could you would never have to buy gas again. But, while these parasitic forces may be proportional to a vehicle's weight that relationship is not linear. In other words the parasitic forces involved in getting a 5,000 lb vehicle up to 60 mph are usually going to be less than 2 times those encountered getting a 2,500 lb car up to the same speed. Yet for the same reason you should be able to recapture more than twice as much energy decelarating a 5,000 lb car from 60-0.

    I'm still not clear on what you mean by a fuel cell/electric hybrid. Fuel cells produce electricity. Do you mean that the fuel cells would be charging the battery which would in turn be powering the electric motor?
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    snaphook - I agree with your last sentence above - If the fuel cell technology is perfected, the hybrid is obsolete. You don't need the gasoline engine anymore, the fuel cell creates electricity to run the electric motor
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    While the technique used by hybrids of recapturing energy during braking does not define a hybrid vehicle per se it is nonetheless a good idea that, IMO, could/should be incorporated even on a fuel cell vehicle. Unless of course we develop a cheap method of producing hydrogen. If that becomes the case then who cares about wasting it.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Ok, I understand what you meant now.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Projects generally start with small scale prototypes, be it building ships, bridges or developing software. Going full scale is never a good idea. Do current compacts and sub-compact cars with hybrid technology showcase the full potential? No. They are not expected to.
    Whether twice as heavy vehicle is going to benefit more or less, remains to be seen, but the first consideration has to be the size of electric motor and the battery pack. The current 13 HP/36 lb.-ft electric motor in Civic Hybrid may work well for 2700 lb. car. For a 5000 lb. car, it may be desirable to go larger. If hybrid technology improves, we can be sure to see them being applied on larger scale. It is too early to expect full scale results from a full lineup.

    I'm still not clear on what you mean by a fuel cell/electric hybrid. Fuel cells produce electricity. Do you mean that the fuel cells would be charging the battery which would in turn be powering the electric motor?
    Not necessarily charging batteries, but to me, hybrid technology is about using two sources of energy. A petroleum-electric hybrid could very well be an electricity generator, the input from the pump being gasoline or diesel, and the generator being the ICE. A fuel cell stack become the generator, and hydrogen is the input to supply energy to drive the vehicle.
    In other words, hybrid technology is not limited to use of batteries, but the source of the driving force. But that is just my opinion, you may disagree.
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    Full size and full scale are not the same thing. I agree that when developing new technology you begin with a prototype. But there is not necessarily a benefit in this prototype being physically small. I think Ford and GM have plans to introduce hybrid technology in 3 full size models (Explorer, F series, Silverado). I'm sure that these will be limited production, ie not full scale.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't think you got my point. By full scale I didn’t intend to mean larger production volume. Honda started with Insight, a 2000 lb. sub-compact. With some improvements (including reduction in physical size of electric motor and battery pack), they now moved to a 2700 lb. compact, Civic. Depending on the success, they plan to move ahead, and next two vehicles that have been mentioned are CRV (3400 lb.) and Pilot (about 4400 lb.). With an increase in vehicle's size, the size of the battery pack, electric motor would have to grow.
    Now imagine the other route, from large vehicle, working its way to smaller vehicles. Two different approaches, but it is the small to large approach that makes sense to me. If you were to start a company to make engines, would you start producing large engines, say V8 or V12, or would you start with four cylinder, or less?
  • snaphooksnaphook Member Posts: 130
    To some extent I see your point. As a proof of concept it might be easier to experiment with the technology on a small vehicle. But as far as actually implementing it I'm not sure it makes sense. An analogy, you might test an AIDs vaccine on rats but once you've developed it I don't think it would make much sense to go and innoculate all the rats. There is very little to be gained by offering a 50mpg vehicle to someone currently driving a car that gets 40 mpg. On the other hand, raising the efficiency of a car that gets 12 mpg to 14 mpg will save twice as much gas. I realize that Honda doesn't have a gas hog like this in their current lineup (not yet) so a better example might have been Toyota. Why not implement this technology on your Land Cruiser (13/16 mpg) instead of coming out with a Prius to compete with the Echo that already gets 40 mpg.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Snaphook,
    It sure makes sense that technology is applied to where it is needed. And it will happen. In fact, Honda has already showcased couple of high powered hybrid prototypes, one is on display at NYAS (DNX). It can be done, but once again, current technology is not the end of it. I agree that 46/51 mpg is not as great improvement over 34/45 mpg of VW TDI or 36/44 mpg of Civic HX, but then, there are compacts running around with 22-24/31-32 mpg fuel efficiency too!

    I'm sure we will see Hybrid CRV soon. That is the next step up, believe me, while Ford prepares for Escape HEV. We just want everything, atonce, right?
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    When to comes to high-tech, I'd like to see that Acura DNX concept in production... 400 hp with 40 mpg. Drool.
This discussion has been closed.