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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
I don't know how many miles you have on yours, but if it's overdue for a filter change it might be a good idea to flush the ATF and refresh. Whine can sometimes be attributed to oxidation of the ATF. Also, check for loose cooling lines. I've seen them cause a whine-type noise.
Regards,
Dusty
2005 Honda Odyssey EX 4dr Minivan (3.5L 6cyl 5A)
ALG residual is - 38% with Edmunds TMV of $26,572
ALG Value left is $10097
ALG value lost 26572-10097 = $16474
Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3573
Actual Value lost = 16474+3573 = $20,047
2005 Toyota Sienna XLE 7 Passenger Fwd 4dr Minivan (3.3L 6cyl 5A)
ALG residual is - 37% with Edmunds TMV of $26,989
ALG Value left is $9985
ALG value lost 26989-9985 = $17003
Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3573
Actual Value lost = 17003+3573 = $20,576
2005 Chrysler Town and Country Touring 4dr Ext Minivan (3.8L 6cyl 4A)
ALG residual is 29% with Edmunds TMV of $24,840, with an Autual dealer quote of $23,570
ALG Value left is $6835
ALG value lost 23570-6835 = $16734
Finance Charge expenses for 5 year = $3004
Actual Value lost = 16734+3004 = $19,738
Do you notice that the TMV is used for all cars but the Chrysler that comes from another source one I can't confirm!! Also he uses finance charges. Well I paid cash so let's use the TMV with no finance charges.
I'll do just the Honda and Chrysler!
2005 Chrysler Town and Country Touring 4dr Ext Minivan (3.8L 6cyl 4A)
ALG residual is 29% with Edmunds TMV of $24,840
ALG Value left is $6835
24,840-6835= $18,005 actual loss
2005 Honda Odyssey EX 4dr Minivan (3.5L 6cyl 5A)
ALG residual is - 38% with Edmunds TMV of $26,572
ALG Value left is $10097
ALG value lost 26572-10097 = $16,474 actual lost
So i look at it a little different and lo and behold I get a different answer!! I can spin it too. It's not that hard. Now what I really need is someone who knows waht type of seal material to use with Galden HT-200( viton dosen't work(breaks down)and Bay Votex product support won't be in until monday. I got a leak on my heat exchanger and the clutch plate between the motor and the pump!! Oh well what about kalrez??
The owner's manual states NO SERVICE of transmission is necessary until 100,000 miles unless over 50 % of driving is done at high speeds with outside temperature 90 degrees F or higher.
The T&C has never been driven at high speeds for any length of time when the outside temperature was that high. It has crossed southern Nevada many times but NEVER in the middle of the summer when it is hot. Colorado-Wyoming-Utah where it has mostly been driven do not have temperatures that high for more than a few hours each day in the middle of the summer.
The owner's manual states NO SERVICE of transmission is necessary until 100,000 miles unless over 50 % of driving is done at high speeds with outside temperature 90 degrees F or higher.
I had that whine on my 2001 from the beginning. It got a little worse. I could hear my wife coming down the street. I didn't have any issues with it and seems to work fine. I think it's one of those normal things
If you are shopping for a minivan , bottom line is if you can purchase
Town & country for $23100 and Odyssey for $26,572
you break even after 60 months or 5 year per ALG numbers.
Go out and do your shopping, if you can get Odyssey for a price below TMV buy or if you can get a T&C below $23100 buy.
-Hari
Dodge and Chrysler products can be customized a lot, lots of options to select , and Honda and Toyota are static on any given models , Honda Odyssey EX does not offer any options.
Chrysler Town and Country Touring can be customized as much as you want.
the 2005 sale prices for Touring can vary from 17000 - 32000, its difficult to come up with one price or one number for used models for domestic
So why don't we stop this charade and say It's about even! You pay less up front for the Dodge and you get more back on the end for the Odyssey. It matter how well you buy and sell the vehicle> as someone says on this site it's a horse race. As far as TCO I'm not sure which is best. It seems to me to be too close to call!!!
Edmunds Review for T&C
Pros:
Excellent ride and handling, good low-end pull from 3.8-liter V6, roomy and luxurious interior, innovative fold-flat second- and third-row seats.
Edmunds Review for Odyssey
Pros:
Agile, carlike handling, a split flat-folding rear bench, optional eight-passenger seating, extensive feature list, smooth and powerful V6, strong reliability record
and they are wrong on the reliablity record, Odyssey scores poorly on JDpower survey
-Hari
Wow thats not the way I read it. Is the T&C quicker to 60 with a better turning radius now too? I just went out and kissed my Honda goodnight she might not be pretty but boy I enjoy driving it.(for a minivan LOL)
and they are wrong on the reliablity record, Odyssey scores poorly on JDpower survey
You understand JD powers is more of a customer service thing right? My brother in law's company spend alot of time just on the JD Powers survey part of the home building(they get a bonus based on it, so they scout out for problems)and he's a construction super!Toyota scores high on all the fronts always do and still will even with the recent recall. Honda should learn a little from the perception they have from the customer.
Oh here some other things Edmunds has to say about consumer/editor most wanted Odyssey! Its the end of the first drive review!
If it sounds like the Odyssey is a place we'd want to spend time in, you're right. With vehicles designed to be everything from no-frills transportation to luxurious, fast sport coupes, the most important thing about minivan design is utility. It's not simply about style or luxury or power. Minivans are about the people inside them — their comfort, safety and the way they live. And in the case of the new Odyssey, Honda again approaches the challenge with a special thoughtfulness that sets the Odyssey apart from the competition.
"Edmunds Review for Odyssey
Pros:
Agile, carlike handling, a split flat-folding rear bench, optional eight-passenger seating, extensive feature list, smooth and powerful V6, strong reliability record"
When we talk about handling, it does not mean a smooth ride and driving only in a straight line that befit Aunty Mildred and the folks in Floridian retiree communities, unless you are from that stock. We mean agility, carlike handling, etc(like you mentioned from Edmunds) to complement the way car enthusiasts drive - like being not afraid to do corners in a spirited way in event the vehicle topples over.
From the 70+ DGC rentals I had in the past 2 years, which included some virgin loaded T & C's with the 3.8L V6, I will concur with C & D that the "3.8L V6 is gutless and won't cut it in this crowd of MVs" in their June 2004 comparo.
From your above quotes, you seem to have put your feet in your mouth where they may righfully belong!
T&C won Motortrend "Car of the Year" in 1991, its first for a minivan.
Honda Odyssey was in diapers in 1991.
JDPower compiles customer complaints and perception about Mechanical Quality for all cars and trucks. ( They are the industry bench mark )
please visit JDPower site and also NHTSA site, they also log customer complains ( real customer complaints ) www.safecar.gov.
Look how many customer are unhappy with 2005 Honda Odyssey Quality.
Check for yourself.
KBB Driving impressions of T&C,
We drove a Town & Country with the more powerful 3.8-liter engine and were impressed by how well it worked with the four-speed automatic transmission to move the big, heavy minivan; even hill climbs and freeway merges were accomplished without exertion. Out on the highway, the Town & Country rides smoothly and quietly (16% more quietly than the 2004 model, according to Chrysler). We were also surprised at how agile the tall, multi-ton vehicle was around town and in parking lots. Braking was sure as well.
the high-end Limited edition remains the most luxurious minivan on the road. The vehicle is roomy throughout, with the available heated leather front seats being the most comfortable.
As minivans go, we think the Town & Country is among the more attractive on the market, especially when fitted with the bigger 16-inch wheels.
T&C won Motortrend "Car of the Year" in 1991, its first for a minivan.
Honda Odyssey was in diapers in 1991.
So your points is??.I've worked on may projects where my company was first(first semiconductor cluster tool) and then trumped by AMAT. They took what we did and made it more user friendly. 1991 was quite a long time ago in car years(usually a redisign every 5 years)I'm not saying the Honda is vastly ahead of the Chrysler just it suited my needs better.
Here's a Performance review of both cars from the auto channel
Honda
Performance: I must say that for a van this vehicle performed like a race car. The pickup was more than adequate for getting in and out of fast lanes and the cornering, braking and smoothness of the ride are all better than most vans in this class. The interior was very quite both in the city and on the highway.
Chrysler
Our tester had the 3.8-liter V6 engine that delivered 207 horsepower. That's a fairly low number for that size engine, but it was enough for the 4,442-pound Limited version we had. We weren't overpowered, but you don't need tons of power in a van, just enough to keep you out of trouble. The engine drove the front wheels through a four-speed automatic transmission. This was a nice combination, since there's no need for performance-driven gearboxes.
We took the T&C on our favorite test roads and the van did well. It climbed hills fine and pranced along on the straight sections. Corners were taken at sane speeds because of the tall aspect ratio of the vehicle. Vans ain't sports cars folks.
Well one feels like a race car and the other ain't no sports car! There's plenty more where that came from too! These are reviewers opinions I happen to agree! Go test drive em both and see which one fits you the best.
The opinions of who? People who are paid by a magazine staff to write critiques of automobiles? Who says that one persons opinion is better than another's? Because they're paid to have an opinion? The fact that someone says that such-and-such is true is highly self-absorbed. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to understand that some might be lacking in self-esteem so bad to need to pander the opinions of others on the self-righteousness of their pet material object. After all, when you spend thirty thousand dollars or more on a machine you have to convince yourself that it's better than anybody elses and that you didn't make a mistake, at which point inertia takes effect and the end justifies the means.
Opinions, whether coming from a opinion grinder at a magazine, or Joe Blow on the street all have the same intrinsic value. Zero. Opinions are just that, the culmination of specific individual tastes which has no predictable corollary effect with anybody else values. Opinions are NOT necessarily fact, but one fact is that this discussion is totally subjective and generally meaningless...and it's getting juvenile. And, no, not by any standard is that name calling.
At what point does the discussion become pointless?
Well that is your opinion. There are some facts I can get you from MT
0-60mph Dodge 10.2sec. , Honda 8.6sec.
Braking 60-0 Dodge 136ft, Honda 123ft
600 ft slalom Dodge 58.3 mph , Honda 59.3 mph
Lateral acceleration Dodge .69g avg. Honda .76g avg.
MT fuel economy Dodge 18.4 mpg Honda 19.8mpg
At what point does the discussion become pointless?
Whenever you feel like it is,as for me I like a good debate! I also enjoy alot of the people on this board I find it funny and entertaining! :P
I also don't see much different in value on both after 5 years. The Honda is more expensive new and has a higher value used. But I see that difference, according to the paper selling them used, to be only from $2,000.00-$4,000.00.Not the $6-8,000 some has said it to be.
I guess it all depends on how much you want to spend initially. Price could make a big difference in what you buy, if not, it's either looks or what your going to use your van for that will determine what you get.
The only problem I had with that tranny was about three years ago when I had the tranny fluid and filter changed at a name brand tire company store. About 4-5 days later, the tranny started shifting funny. I took it to a transmission shop and told them I had the fluid and filter changed about a week ago. The guy asked me what kind of fluid was put in it and I told him I didn't know. He called up the store and found out they used Dexron-Mercon ATF. The tranny shop drained the fluid out and put on another filter, refilled it with the right stuff and I never had anymore trouble after that. That car gave me very good service for 11 years.
I have to wonder though, if that transmission shop hadn't been honest, and charged me for a rebuilt. How many people do you think may have been ripped off for bad trannies because of fluid or reprogram of the computer?
Hey!!! Lets be very selective with our sources and pick just MT for data, it'll make Honda look sooo much more superior.
We've been thru this how many times??? I feel CR is good for their test data only, not their writeups. They have DCX/Oddy a lot closer in all those numbers...it's splitting hairs. What's surprising is all the new tech doesn't really help Honda that greatly, sure they have more HP but it's at such a high rev line. Just like VCM....based on readings on this board, autoweek TV etc...the gas mileage is dismal considering all the hype.
Hey, and lets not forget my favorite number - THREE!!! As in the total number of recalls for Honda's vastly superior Oddy. The Oddy people like to counter that it only effects a tiny part of the buyers etc..... Whateva!
Another great number - $800! The amount it'll cost to repair your AC condenser on an Oddy due to poor design. Of course you can buy a Mr. Grill for $100 to prevent that...no big deal!!!
And my newest one 600!!!.....Honda is giving away free engines!!! Especially if your's happens to fail after 600 miles!!
Nice to see your back from camping. I'm sorry it was the quickest one I could find! So now CR is right I'm sure if the data was different you would say it isn't!
Hey, and lets not forget my favorite number - THREE!!! As in the total number of recalls for Honda's vastly superior Oddy. The Oddy people like to counter that it only effects a tiny part of the buyers etc..... Whateva!
Another great number - $800! The amount it'll cost to repair your AC condenser on an Oddy due to poor design. Of course you can buy a Mr. Grill for $100 to prevent that...no big deal!!!
And my newest one 600!!!.....Honda is giving away free engines!!! Especially if your's happens to fail after 600 miles!!
Yeah I see what you mean the Dodge people are so civil! This is why I post on this board!!
I happen to know so of these "so call" MT/Car & Driver people and their testing methods vary widely...equipment, conditions etc... CR is a more controlled "test".
I'm just happy to add more information to your post socalawd, things you might have forgotten.
Just a quick camping trip to the northerns of Michigan. Minivan performed flawlessly....only 18 MPG though, but still towing an RV and loaded, averaging 70 mph
To end this once and for all....
What was the only minivan still running after the Alien invasion in "War of the Worlds"..... a DODGE!!!! Not a Honda, Not a Toyota. I bet the Dodge would probably survive Gozilla eating it too!!
Try the VW Microbus back in 1950's and '60 that hippies/flower people made out in.
I let the leasing/resale discussion go on for a bit because these issues can have an impact on purchasing decisions, but it seems to have derailed the topic. If you'd like to continue discussing these issues, please take them to the Smart Shopper Forum, where they belong. Otherwise, they'll be deleted.
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If DC minivans had the 5 speed Autostick Transmission used in both the Charger and 300C, the Ody performance advantage would disappear.
The Sienna with 242 lb-ft torque @ 3600 RPM gave it a very distinct performance advantage when I test drove the Sienna and Ody. BOTH had much greater performance than my 02 T&C 3.3L with only 210 lb-ft and an old fashioned 4 speed Automatic.
Try the VW Microbus back in 1950's and '60 that hippies/flower people made out in.
WRONG HOW?? Did you see the Movie??? It sure wasn't a VW!
Yes the VW was there in spirit form.
If DC minivans had the 5 speed Autostick Transmission used in both the Charger and 300C, the Ody performance advantage would disappear
It's always nice to dream. It would cost more money to build too! Hey if dodge puts a hemi in with a sports stick, count me in for 2015 when I'll buy my next new car!! They can call it the Dodge Grand Caravan R/T!!
You can check this fact in Edmunds, www.honda.com or www.chrysler.com.
Should an environmentally and socially responsible consumer purchase a Honda (Import) when there is a better performing and safe domestic alternative?
Should consumers be socially responsible?
2005 Chrysler T&C Touring and Honda Odyssey some key facts.
2005 T&C 2005 Odyssey
Safety
********
NHTSA
Crash test
Front *************5 Stars 5 Stars
Side**************5 Stars 5 Stars ( with a safety concern, Door popped out )
IIHS**************Not tested Good
Quality
**********
JDPower
Initial****************2 Stars 4 Stars
Longterm***********3 Stars 3 Stars
Warranty************3/36K 7/70K
Price
*********
Edmunds
TMV **************26K 24K
Resale
Value
******
ALG
5 Year
Lost
Value***************17K 14K
They both handle very well , Honda has VSA and Chrysler does not.
Actually, in the near future Chrysler will be introducing a new FWD transmission that will be more than competitive, especially in their mini-vans.
Dusty
The content of DC minivans was more important to me than the higher performance of the Odyssey or Sienna...BUT, with DC deleting nice features while Honda and Toyota are adding nice features, it makes the choice of a DC minivan less appealing.
Not sure when you're going to be in the market, but I don't think their new transmission will be available until '07.
Dusty
How many planetary gear sets do the current DC minivan 4 speed AT have? What about the Odyssey and Sienna?
Since the 2005 DC minivans with Stow-N Go were released late January or early February 2004, can we expect the new 2007 DC minivan availability in about 6 months? :confuse:
You can check this fact in Edmunds, www.honda.com or www.chrysler.com.
Should an environmentally and socially responsible consumer purchase a Honda (Import) when there is a better performing and safe domestic alternative?
Should consumers be socially responsible? 2005 Odyssey releases 20.8 - 25.0 Pounds smog-forming pollution per 15000 miles against 12.3 - 12.9 Pounds for Chrysler T&C.
You can check this fact in Edmunds, www.honda.com or www.chrysler.com.
Should an environmentally and socially responsible consumer purchase a Honda (Import) when there is a better performing and safe domestic alternative?
Should consumers be socially responsible?
Please look at green vehicle guide
link title
Honda is the one on top(best rated). Then go look at the Dodge 3.8L and the 2.4l.
Also the honda is built in Alabama. The Dodge is mostly built in Windsor Canada with some built is St. Loius. Honda is a japanese company. DCX is a german owned company! Actually they are both public companies so I'm not sure who owns them LOL. Car companies have truely gone global.
IIHS**************Not tested Good
Dodge scored Marginal in 2001 the car has not been totally redone. The tested it 3 times to get it that high. The first time they tested it the fuel tank leaked at the neck(That was a early 2001 model) They fixed it(nofix for my early model) and retested. Until they retest I'm go with the old score!
Warranty************3/36K 7/70K
Only 7/70K on powertrain. 3/36/bumper to bumper like the honda! 2006 will be just like the honda.
ALG
5 Year
Lost
Value***************17K 14K
These numbers are cooked! Many factors are involved! So you can make it look like you want!
They both handle very well , Honda has VSA and Chrysler does not.
They have different handling styles(can I say that)or is it just opinion. Test drive them both is the best way. Take a nice long one too and try to go over the same area's. In some auto parks you can test drive em back to back on the same roads.
And Honda has standard side airbags for with head protection for all rows. The dodge has a kneeblocker airbag standard on LWB models. Enjoy!
Just shows that no vehicle is yet perfect.
I think DC is stupid if they change the powertrain warranty to 3/36,000 as with the rest of the vehicle and also with the Odyssey. :sick:
The Sienna has a 5 year 60,000 mile powertrain warranty and the Sedona has a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. The Sienna has always been perceived to be one of the most reliable vehicles and the Sedona is earning a good reputation. :shades:
Back when my family owned a Dodge dealership, we could get warranty to cover repairs sometimes into the 100k mile range. I don't know if the dealers are just more greedy now (we'd have to eat some labor cost) or what, but I couldn't get any of the local dealers to even consider fixing his transmission, the first time at 50k miles. I remember our service manager getting a factory reman transmission for a lady's Caravan at 100k miles. We even made a little money on the deal. Today, the dealers just say $3500 please!
Chrysler is a US automaker, no matter how much you wanna argue.
They create more US jobs than Honda.
They contribute more to US ecomony then Honda.
They are socially more responsible than Honda ( they are many social programs to help fight AIDS and disasters )
They share profits with their US workers
They have much bigger supply base in US than Honda, they supply base creates jobs in turn.
Most of their vehicles are built in NAFTA ( CAN AND US , you cannot differentiate )
Buying a import is not socially responsible and is not patriotic.
2005 Chrysler Minivan is totally redesiged.
2005 Honda Odyssey has more recalls then 2005 T&C, check NHTSA website.
2005 Honda odyssey has more customer compaints as a percentage of sales than Chrysler.
Honda never invented anything original, they always copy ( imposters )
Chrysler created the first 4X4 (Jeep ) , first Minivan, first rear wheel drive, their are 15 minivan first including dual sliding door.
US is loosing competitive edge in the world market, because consumers are not socially responsible . buying all Chinese made products.
Sorry to be so, blut, I do not mean to pick up a fight with you. Really bothered by the loss of so many US manufacturing jobs.
I do not own a dealership and I am not trying to sell anything.
You can check this fact in Edmunds, www.honda.com or www.chrysler.com.
I see that Edmunds lists the numbers you're quoting. They don't list their source which could be helpful! The reason I have a problem with that is that they're not the same as the EPA's ratings for these vehicles. At this link EPA RATINGS you'll see the Odyssey as having the best rating for both CARB and non-CARB vehicles. Similar ratings as the Chrysler 3.3L, significantly worse than the 3.8L.
They are the top rated minivan. The EXL+ model I gave the link above.
Chrysler is a US automaker, no matter how much you wanna argue.
I have a hard time figuring out who's who. Here's a interesting article about who owns who.
BMW owns:
-BMW
-Mini
-Rolls Royce
Daimler/Chrysler owns:
-AMC (brand discontinued -- Chrysler bought AMC primarily for the Jeep brand which was owned by AMC)
-Chrysler
-Dodge
-Eagle (brand discontinued)
-Hyundai (Daimler/Chrysler only owns 10% --13 May 04 changes!)
-Jeep
-Maybach
-Mercedes-Benz
-Mitsubishi (Daimler/Chrysler owns 37%)
-Plymouth (brand discontinued)
-Smart
Fiat owns:
-Alfa Romeo
-Ferrari
-Fiat
-Lancia
-Maserati
Ford owns:
-Aston Martin
-Ford
-Jaguar
-Land Rover (bought from BMW)
-Lincoln
-Mazda (Ford owns 33% of Mazda)
-Mercury
-Volvo cars
Fuji Heavy Industries owns:
-Subaru
General Motors owns:
-Buick
-Cadillac
-Chevrolet
-Daewoo (GM owns 44%)
-Fiat (GM owns ~20%) (GM has decided to divorce itself from Fiat as of Feb '05)
-Fuji Heavy Industries (GM owns ~20%)
-GMC
-Holden
-Hummer
-Isuzu (GM only owns a percentage)
-Oldsmobile (brand discontinued)
-Opel
-Pontiac
-Saab
-Saturn
-Subaru (GM owns 20%)
-Suzuki (GM only owns a small percentage)
-Vauxhall
Honda owns:
-Acura
-Honda
Hyundai owns:
-Hyundai
-Kia
Nissan owns:
-Infiniti
-Nissan
-Renault (Nissan owns 15%)
PSA Peugeot Citroen owns:
-Citroen
-Peugeot
Porsche is an independent company (they do work very closely with VW, however)
Renault owns:
-Nissan (Renault owns 44%)
Toyota owns:
-Daihatsu (~51%)
-Lexus
-Scion
-Toyota
Volkswagen owns:
-Audi
-Bentley
-Bugatti
-Lamborghini
-SEAT
-Skoda
-Volkswagen
They create more US jobs than Honda.
They contribute more to US ecomony then Honda.
They are socially more responsible than Honda ( they are many social programs to help fight AIDS and disasters )
They share profits with their US workers
They have much bigger supply base in US than Honda, they supply base creates jobs in turn.
Most of their vehicles are built in NAFTA ( CAN AND US , you cannot differentiate )
Buying a import is not socially responsible and is not patriotic.
A source I looked at says that chrysler built 7.1% of the cars in North America and Honda was 7.2%. Now add in dodge and it's a different story. So you think NAFTA is a good deal. Last time I looked I was an American not a Canadian or a Mexician. Please don't question how patriotic I am! Heck, i don't even shop at WalMart!!
2005 Chrysler Minivan is totally redesiged
It was a update!
Chrysler created the first 4X4 (Jeep )
No AMC the last of the independants! They didn't invent just bought! I was sorry to see it go. I owned a 1975 Hornet in college. The AM radio was the best loved the one speaker in the dash.
Honda never invented anything original, they always copy ( imposters )
I can't even reply to this kind of remark! But can't let it go ethier!
2005 Honda odyssey has more customer compaints as a percentage of sales than Chrysler.
Ok give me the data. Not just see this post thing!
US is loosing competitive edge in the world market, because consumers are not socially responsible . buying all Chinese made products
US is loosing edge because it gave too much to the unions. This gives them less money to build and update the cars. I didn't buy a chinese car. I try and buy americian when I can if it makes sense. Just bought a AMANA refrigerator(The LG was cheaper but). After all we are a free market society! If you build a better mouse trap!
Dennis, you need to catch up a little too. :P You should feed the iPod into your stereo thru the RCA inputs with a little adapter from Radio Shack. The Honda has them into the stereo, right?
I had an FM transmitter for my MP3 player, and now a direct AUX input. Night and Day
iTrip is ideal for me.....I take it from cars, to house, to RV etc....
iPod is like TIVO - you wonder how you ever got along without it!
I would just recommend, if you DO have the RCA inputs (my T&C has it right on the DVD changer plate) - it's well worth it to get the stuff for less than $10 at Radio Shack for a direct connection
"No AMC the last of the independents! They didn't invent just bought! I was sorry to see it go. I owned a 1975 Hornet in college. The AM radio was the best loved the one speaker in the dash."
As officially adopted by the U.S. Army, the Jeep was the design of the Willys-Overland Corporation at the onset of World War II, although American Bantam was the first submitter of what we know as the "jeep" concept. Kaiser Motors obtained Willys-Overland in 1953, and hence the Jeep name and manufacturing. AMC (formerly Nash) acquired the Jeep when they purchased Kaiser in 1960. For the record, Ford made the majority of the wartime Jeeps. Willys failed to get the Jeep contract and instead built a small trailer for the Jeep. After the end of the war Willys made Jeeps again. It's also a little hard to refer to AMC as the last of the independents, being the grand child of Nash, Willys-Overland, Studebaker, and then finally being owned by Renault.
Dusty
True, it was not a complete re-design, but to say only the headlights were changed slightly is as irresponsible as the written portion of CR vehicle tests.
BTW, doesn't the 2005 Honda Odyssey use the same transmission and engine in the LX and EX (cloth) that were used in the 2004 Odyssey? Does that imply that the 2005 Odyssey was not redesigned? :confuse:
The pollution values listed by Edmunds are actual measured values at the time the vehicle was federally certified. So in this case the Chrysler T&C does produce less actual pollutants than the Honda.
Dusty
Whether this defines "total redesign" is arguable.
Dusty