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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
Although we had planned to buy a new Odyssey, there are too many problems with reliability of the Odyssey. Our next van will probably be either a Sienna LE or Grand Caravan SXT....where reliability is a fact and not a myth.
your daughter is very smart in terms of letting someone take the big, i mean huge depreciation on a 3 yr old DC van :P
And using forums/nhtsa etc. to glean reliability is a pretty unscientific method. NHTSA is quite entertaining to read actually, makes you feel good about yourself. Folks getting beat-up by the folding head-rests in the Caravan
As far as resale value, that little game is played by only using MRSP prices, not what actual prices paid.
Meanwhile, the barely acceptable DC minivans just keep outselling all the competition.
According to sales figures, even though Honda added Oddy capacity, it doesn't look like they'll need it?
My barely acceptable DC Minivan appears to be getting better or equal mileage, no major recalls and costs thousands less. Lets' not talk about problems the Oddys are having.
Yep, another of those horrible recalls where something "could" "possibly" cause a problem.
Aren't you glad Honda caught this and did something pro-active?
Guess they don't get any credit for that though...
It's good to nitpick, keeps my numbers in check. I don't want to look like old rrrrr or whatever his/her name was that constantly put out bogus numbers.
I flipped to the wrong page of Automotive News Market Data Book. Explorer and all equivalents sold 406,893; DC vans sold 384,830. I originally pulled the DC numbers from the US production page, which was 201,813. The rest of the DC vans were made in Canada.
My point stands, they're both high volume bargains that do huge fleet sales. At least in it's hay-day the DC vans could win some awards, I don't think the Explorer ever has.
No doubt the Dodge vans have a huge owner loyalty. We've owned several over the years and they're fine vans. I think if you just want basic minivan transport, you still can't go wrong with them. But the doo-dads and luxury features put them behind a bit for someone willing to jump ship like myself. I'm not brand loyal at all, I just buy what I like the best at the moment. When Dodge redesigns these, I can see them winning back some awards.
Caught this??? Pro-Active??? It's been on the market for almost a year?????? You've got to be joking!!!!!!
My barely acceptable DC Minivan appears to be getting better or equal mileage, no major recalls and costs thousands less. Lets' not talk about problems the Oddys are having.
When I made a decision to purchase a minivan I did not place much importance in number of recalls. I have a Honda Accord 2000 that had transmission failure at 40K miles and had the manufacturer replace it free of charge. It is doing great at 80K miles and has never had any other problems. My old 1987 Honda Civic gifted to a friend still rums good at 155K miles, the poor 1990 Subaru got totalled in an accident with a truck at 168 K miles ( through no fault of its own and helped me survive) and my 1989 Camry runs great with 145K miles on it.
I looked at long term reliability of minivans. Two of my friend’s Town and Country minivans had problems at 80K with transmission and AC failures and they traded them for Toyota minivans. My neighbor complains that he pays more for his 3 year old DC in monthly repair costs than the car payments. I saw him cleaning it on the driveway this weekend in order to prepare and sell it. Even though these are only 3 of the millions of vans sold, these vans have a reputation for long term unreliability. So I decided to go either with a Honda or Toyota. Since the Honda cost me less that a comparably equipped Toyota I bought it.
Sure, I will go when the Honda recall notice comes and have it checked. I am willing to take my chances on the Honda product like you did on the Dodge. To each his / her own.
Cheers
Then again, politicians and car salesmen sometimes seem to get more than their share of bad public perception, so maybe you are in the right business!
I will agree that issuing a recall is better than ignoring a problem, but that is similar to drilling and filling a tooth to save it from being pulled out later. A recall is the lesser of two evils.
However, I also don't pay much attention to recalls as a reason to buy or not to buy a vehicle unless they get too excessive for one particular model.
My number one rule of thumb is to stay away from the first model year of any vehicle design, unless the new model was mostly just a "freshening". Being an engineer by trade, I know that any new design is going to have kinks to be ironed out, no matter how much attention to detail may have occured. At least stay away from the first 6-8 months of production.
If I sell it to my daughter, it would be for the trade-in value offered by the dealer where we get our new GC SXT, Sienna LE, or Odyssey EX.
Per JDPowers Longterm Dependability Consumer study, for cars 3 years or older, this is what they found. ( Actual Consumer Survey )
Brand - Problems Per 100 Vehicles
Honda - 201
Toyota -194
Chrysler - 235
Average Mechanical Problems
Expected Per Vehicle per Year for a given brand.
Honda-2.0
Toyota-1.9
Chrysler-2.4
2005 Odyssey scores below average for the brand, should have more than 2 problems in a given year per vehicle.
2005 Toyota Sienna scores above average for the brand , should have less than 1.9 problems per vehicle per year.
2005 Chrysler T&C also scores above average for the brand, should have less than 2.4 problems per year per vehicle.
Problems can vary from vehicle to vehicle, depends on who is at the line in the Factory ( Really )
Quality can also be a perception , not a reality, few cusomers, who love their cars, will never accept there is a problem, and may not report the problem.
My own experience with the Caravan is our 1994 Grand Caravan ES purchased new in July 1994. Basically, it's been very reliable. No engine work over 152K miles, and the original 4-speed ECT automatic. Yes, that is correct, the original transmission! The front pump seal is just now beginning to leak a bit, which most likely will require a rebuild in the short term.
However, it's other factors which bug the heck out of me with our Caravan. The two motors for the rear vent wings failed almost simultaneously only a couple of years after purchase; the front and rear A/C evaporators have been a constant source of trouble; occasional ABS problems that raise their ugly head, and then go away for some unexplained reason; the flourescent display for the radio/CD player/clock died; intermittent problems with the body computer which contols the gauge package, and most importantly, the paint flaking off the roof and the hood (This one really bothers me - it's totally unacceptable!). On the other hand, the exhaust system is original after 11 years - certainly the longest period of time I've ever owned a vehicle without replacing the exhaust system, and the high-level interior looks new after over a decade of use. And, no suspension problems except for replacement of the front struts at around 90K miles.
I've used Mobil 1 5W-30 since the inception, and change it religously every 3K miles. And, I change the ATF and filter on the transmission every 20K miles. All in all, it could certainly be worse. Would I buy another DC minivan? That's a good question, I really don't know. It would be a tough call, as it seems other marques are having their share of problems as well.
LOL! Oddy doesn't even come close to handling like a sports car! It MAY be the best handling minivan, but that does not mean it's anywhere near a sportscar. I've driven both and the Oddy surely isn't even in the same ballpark.
Pump seals leaking at that mileage is very common on any manufacturers transmission. You didn't say if you maintenanced the transmission, but in that year if you have the original shift solenoid pack the fluid must be exceptionally clean. The anti-drain back valves clogging also caused a fair share of transmission failures in those years. Many shops remove them after a rebuild to ensure long term reliability. They should be flushed or replaced at rebuild, but many shops don't.
Regards,
Dusty
Dusty
MSRP X residual= estimated resale value
Selling price - estimated resale value= depreciation
Now, is that the exact figure you'll sell the vehicle for? No, but it's a steady factor for comparison purposes. When I did the math, the Ody came out ahead by a grand or so over 3 years. With employee pricing on the Dodge is about break even. Unless you're one of these folks that can't buy an Ody for close to invoice for some reason.
Of course if you keep the vehicle forever, it hardly matters. The average ownership is a bit over five years and 80k miles. That means folks like me that trade every two/three years are just as common as the ones that keep them forever.
As for Vans vs Cars....sure residuals vary between types of vehicles. Most folks don't cross-shop a car and a minivan so that doesn't really amount to much in the scheme of things. I didn't buy a minivan as an investment, but if I can reduce the loss..all the better.
I think you missed my point. With Dodge/Chrysler mini-vans being the most popular, it is no surprise that they dominate the used car market supply. Hence the values will be depressed. But this is generally the same for most mini-vans because there are so many of them available for resale. Ventures...and Windstars even worse, suffer from this as well.
Dusty
GM just lifted ad boycott of LATimes (one of the fairly liberal NP), they misrepresented GM product information.
I am not surprised Edmunds commented on poor quality of DC minivans, actually JDPower initial quality gave them better ratings than Honda, but the media does not believe the facts.
Blue states (Liberal) V/s Red States (Conservative), this demographic is really true. If you are from Red States you are most likely to own a domestic. If you are from Blue States you are most likely to drive an Import.
Men in Red states are NASCAR fans and usually love domestic SUV and Trucks.
Florida and CA have less then 50% retail registrations of Domestic cars, both Blue states.
Bigthree still rule in the heartland states (Conservative ), Imports rule out west ( Liberal ).
This demographics is not just a coincidence this is a proven marketing fact.
And the Main stream Media (Liberal) love imports.
MSRP X residual= estimated resale value
Selling price - estimated resale value= depreciation
Now, is that the exact figure you'll sell the vehicle for? No, but it's a steady factor for comparison purposes. When I did the math, the Ody came out ahead by a grand or so over 3 years. With employee pricing on the Dodge is about break even. Unless you're one of these folks that can't buy an Ody for close to invoice for some reason.
***********************************************
Interesting concept, I tried your math , got interesting results. Thanks.
Monthly Ownership cost estimates
Florida and CA have less then 50% retail registrations of Domestic cars, both Blue states.
Bigthree still rule in the heartland states (Conservative ), Imports rule out west ( Liberal ).
This demographics is not just a coincidence this is a proven marketing fact.
And the Main stream Media (Liberal) love imports.
Here we go another person trying to divide the country by politicial party. Well I live in Orange County Ca. Most people here buy import(if you can call them that) I myself have never voted for a Democrat for President. I own a subaru(Built in Indiana) and a Honda(Built in Alabama). You will almost never find someplace more Red than OC. I saw a article in the OC register about cars sales in the OC and a few european cars has a higher percentage than the big 3. I'll try and find the article. Bottom line people buy what they like and can afford! When I was a kid I loved Pontiac(I had a Gran Prix) me and my friends were called team Pontiac(All pontiac owners) Now I am uninspired by the cars(rebadged chevy's) So times change! But if you could please stop all your politicial Spin I would love to talk about the differences between the vans. Not how liberal you THINK the media is and how it affects things!!
I am a Democrat from a Blue state and own a domestic.
If you are rural Texas (Red State) and you are a rancher you are most likely to own a Domestic.
If you are a college professor in Texas - Houston (Urban), you are most likely to own an Import (EU or Japan).
A researcher counted all the vehicle brands in the parking lot at a Democratic convention, and found that over 60% were Imports. (This is a Marketing fact, comes up in many business school classes).
NASCAR Dads , and Urban Soccer Moms have a different demograhic.
Orange County, CA still has close to 50% Domestic registrations. This is where the big three are trying to market their products and spending a lot of marketing dollars.
Guess where Toyota would like to Focus - Its rural Texas.
Guess where Toyota would like to Focus - Its rural Texas
Sales for Domestics continue to fall in the OC with the exception of the a few cars(300C/Magnun). Presently the Domestic sales are 33.8% of the market!!Here's a link to the Orange county auto dealer site. All the information you don't seem to know is there!
link title
Toyota and other Imports are targeting the heartland by opening up more dealerships in those states Toyota has the market share in 23 of 44 heartland metro areas. The vehicles they build are more geared toward this too!! Look at the Toyota Sequoia and Nissan Titan(A auto mag said this truck plays to the latent Redneck in all of us) Hell if I had a boat! Now this board is about Honda vs DCX vans. I'm a Honda owner but both have upside and downside. I couldn't buy without the VSA(Hopefullt DCX is reading this) The stow and go is a nice feature for alot of people. I don't really need it I liked the bigger DVD screen 9" vs 7". The standard sideairbags and the handling feel(some people think its too jarring). So my advice is to go out and look at each van. If you have any questions we can help you here! We are mostly owners of one brand or the other. I hope someone reading this is really a prospective buyer! Mostly I think we do it for ourselves!LOL
Brand - Problems Per 100 Vehicles
Honda - 201
Toyota -194
Chrysler - 235
Average Mechanical Problems
Expected Per Vehicle per Year for a given brand.
Honda-2.0
Toyota-1.9
Chrysler-2.4
2005 Odyssey scores below average for the brand, should have more than 2 problems in a given year per vehicle.
2005 Toyota Sienna scores above average for the brand , should have less than 1.9 problems per vehicle per year.
2005 Chrysler T&C also scores above average for the brand, should have less than 2.4 problems per year per vehicle.
As usual Hrao your numbers don't work out!! You change the above and below for Chrysler and Honda. Look over your UNFACTS again!!
How can 2.4 problems(Chrysler) per year be better than 2 problems per year(Honda) You need to put down the hash pipe! Also make sure your kids are seat belted in while your driving! PLEASE!!!!
This is why most people get minivans for thier families. Have you ever been on a 8 hour drive with a 10 year old and 3 year old twins. We talk listen to the radio and when they start to get on each other put in a DVD. Then repeat said process! The difference between a trip to yosemite is way better.
Why because In the JDPower initial quality 2005 Odyssey only has 3 Stars, below average for Honda ( Brand ), Honda other models, like Pilot have 4 Stars are above. If Honda brand average problems are 2.0 per year per vehicle, because of Odyssey 3 Stars , it should have more than brand average problems i.e greater than 2.0.
There is no twist, and again these are averages, for a given vehicle you might or might not experience any problems.
In 2005 JDpower initial as well as longterm quality GM has overtaken Toyota, Honda is also behind GM.
You can read that in GM ads , Number one , number two and number three quality plants in NAFTA are now owned by GM.
Buick is the best quality car to be built in NAFTA not ACCORD
Yes, Bigthree have to crack the Orange country , SF markets, they know about it , Yes, believe me , they are working on it. Just like Toyota is working on rural Texas market (They fly their designers to all Cowboy games, trying to understand what it means to drive a truck, very few drive trucks in JAPAN )
Bigthree have moved their design centers to LA, Yes, they would like to design Urban CA friendly vehicles ( Compact , Trendy and Green ).
They are consolidating dealerships, opening mega dealerships in CA ( More ad power for the dealer )
Tyring Social programs ( Chrysler is one of the main sponsors of Chinese NewYear festival), donating money to Asian Indian charities and putting ads in ethnic TV channels.
They turned Florida around, CA will soon follow.
Chrysler did increase over all market share in the country from 8% in 1989 to 14.5 in 2005. Just like Honda and Toyota do, they also have some very loyal Jeep and Dodge customers.
Better yet, why not use the DaimlerChrysler web site pricing of the T&C or GC that is MUCH lower than the CarsDirect price because it includes the Employee Discount?
The Dodge Web Site had the GC SXT price at $22,461 after $2,000 discount and $3083 Employee discount.
The Best Minivan according to sales numbers has been the Caravan/Grand Caravan. Rental agencies purchase and rent vehicles that consumers will pay to use.
It does matter, especially when the kid has to sit in the 3rd row seat. Even adults want DVD on long distance journeys, especially if they are not the drivers or front passengers. It is usually impossible to read on van trip since most people become nauseous. If you do not have the pleasure of sitting in the front passenger seat and watch the scenery, you have to sit in the rear and then the DVD becomes important.
Kfdmed, try being a passenger in the 3rd row seat for a change and see the difference between a 7" and 9" screen.
1) DCX is switching to an 8" display for 2006
2) There'll be dockable DVD version also. The docking station will be built into the overhead compartment. The customer would buy a Samsung DVD player to dock, allowing customer to use in and out of vehicle.
3) Stow N Go is being revised to allow seats to slide together to form bench i.e...Mazda/Honda non stowable systems, and will have an optional mini-seat to allow up to 8 passengers.
Why would they do this well maybe biggger is better
2) There'll be dockable DVD version also. The docking station will be built into the overhead compartment. The customer would buy a Samsung DVD player to dock, allowing customer to use in and out of vehicle.
My kid would break this soooo Fast! They think that electronics are for hitting!
3) Stow N Go is being revised to allow seats to slide together to form bench i.e...Mazda/Honda non stowable systems, and will have an optional mini-seat to allow up to 8 passengers.
Great idea I like that setup!
I just hope the larger screen does not impede the view out the back for the driver. On my '05, the screen already impedes my rear view slightly.
That was also something we noticed on the T&C. The Hondas larger 9" screen is not intrusive at all to looking out the rear window. Of course, DC might have fixed this before going to the 8" screen as well.
My kid would break this soooo Fast! They think that electronics are for hitting! maybe perfect for adults though.
Chrysler T&C has 4 Stars ( i.e better Residual Value ), Town&Country should be a great if you take the new residual values into account.
ALG Ratings
Its a give and take , as pointed out by other members, Honda Odyssey has VSA(Value ?), Side Airbags ($600 value ) T&C has Power Liftgate ($400 - Value), Trip Computer ( $500 Value ) , Stow-N-Go (Value ?), Power adjustable pedals ($350 value ), Tire Pressure monitor, Inflatable Knee Blockers, Rear Parking Sensor, Auto Dimmer ( $400 - Option On Odyssey ).
I would still leave the numbers as they are. Its difficult to match the models 100%.
Honda Value
P.S hrao... you're back on my Xmas list.
Wouldn't it be nice if Honda would increase Odyssey production to fill the immense demand for the best minivan of the universe?
Obviously, for some minivans the EPA ratings are very realistic.The overall average (dividing miles driven by fuel consumed) is now 22.6 MPG.
However, if I had the very spirited, high performance Odyssey, the mileage would be lower because I would drag race every Viper, Porsche, etc. at every stop light. Oh, the price I have to pay for owning a modestly powered minivan with an old fashioned OHV engine with an obsolete 4 speed automatic transmission.
you could have said the same thing for the last 5 years! If you can get the van at invoice, i think the demand has been met. Unless honda decides to do fleet sales and sell a whole bunch of decontent vans!