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Hydrocracked motor oil
I created this as a separate discussion from the Synthetic motor oil discussion, because hydrocracked oil is (arguably) a totally different product. That's what I want to find out: how does hydrocracked oil compare with synthetics such as Mobil 1, with respect to improvements over regulard "dino" oil.
What started this ? It's because Costco carries Chevron Delo 400 motor oil, in a 15W-40 weight, which is a hydrocracked oil. They sell it in a box of 6 1-gallon containers, for about $33. My Jeep XJ Cherokee uses 6 quarts of oil at each change, which would equate to about $8.25 per oil change. This is much cheaper than a Mobil 1 oil change, which comes to about $23 each time (oil alone).
The Cherokee has about 75K miles on it, and is starting to use a little oil between changes. It calls for 10W-30 spec oil, but a synthetic-type 15W-40 would work nicely too.
In the synthetic motor oil discussion, there has been some debate about "true" synthetic, particularly Mobil 1 ("true") vs. Castrol Syntec (hydrocracked). I've searched the web, and can't find anything telling me the real differences -- only the manufacturers' sales blurbs, which always sing the praises of their own products.
-Karl
What started this ? It's because Costco carries Chevron Delo 400 motor oil, in a 15W-40 weight, which is a hydrocracked oil. They sell it in a box of 6 1-gallon containers, for about $33. My Jeep XJ Cherokee uses 6 quarts of oil at each change, which would equate to about $8.25 per oil change. This is much cheaper than a Mobil 1 oil change, which comes to about $23 each time (oil alone).
The Cherokee has about 75K miles on it, and is starting to use a little oil between changes. It calls for 10W-30 spec oil, but a synthetic-type 15W-40 would work nicely too.
In the synthetic motor oil discussion, there has been some debate about "true" synthetic, particularly Mobil 1 ("true") vs. Castrol Syntec (hydrocracked). I've searched the web, and can't find anything telling me the real differences -- only the manufacturers' sales blurbs, which always sing the praises of their own products.
-Karl
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Comments
I think the hydrocracked oils fall somewhere in between the 'regular' or 'traditional' mineral ("dino") oils and synthetic stocks. And, among synthetics these modified mineral oils are closer to PAOs than esters.
And, of course this is how they are classified:
Group I - normally processed mineral oil.
Group II, II+ & III - hydroprocessed mineral oils. I think the difference between these three is the degree of processing. Chevron might have details on their site.
Group IV - PAO - polyalphaolefin made from ethylene gas.
Group V - Esters made from the combination of alcohols and acids.
I made that list off the top of my head, all you tribologists out there feel free to correct or refine that list. >;^)
Beware, though. All the SL oils seemingly have some hydrocracked oil in them ... but how much is anybody's guess. Some MSDS sheets might have these details while others won't. I'd expect the amount of Group II oils in a given quart of SL oil to be about 25% to 33% ... with almost none above 50%.
I'd expect a 15W40 oil formulated with some hydrocracked oils to pump at about 5 degrees colder than it ordinarily would. I think that oil might be a great choice for your Jeep in the summer. It is the same stuff I run in most of our small-engine equipment. All oils intended primarily for diesel engines will have an extraordinarily strong additive package and a TBN of around 10.
Oh, and they make Delo 400 in a 10W30 ... but I've never seen it in any store in the Northeast.
--- Bror Jace
Bror, do you know if the Diesel-specific additive package could have any harmful effect on a gas motor ? Chevron's website says the Delo 400 is for use in car Diesels, truck Diesels, or any gas motor... so is it just extra protection that's unnecessary for gas motors ?
-Karl
I strongly suspect that "hydrocracked oil" is about the same as "ultrarefined stock" or "superpure base", depending on the company and the PR agent massaging the labels on the side of the carton. there is no magic well that spouts Pennzoil without the Z-7, it has to be made.
The 15w-40 base stock is listed as "severely refined petroleum distillate" and the 0w-30 and 5w-40 are listed as synthetic base stock consisting of 1-decene, trimer, homopolymer, hydrogenated hydrocarbon base oil.
According to the CAS number interpretation the 15w-40 is not a synthetic oil but the 5w-40 is.
my first thought, from seeing the massive reference tomes carried by organic chem students over the years, was to try a search for the chemical rubber company. www.crcindustries.com does not seem to be in the petrochemical business, however. www.ethyl.com's acronym/definition search blows up when fed "hydrocracked" with an Oracle base error message.
anybody "inside" have something better? I'm interested, now, too.
Delo 400 does no harm to the catalytic converter. Anyone who says that had a problem other than the oil.
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/l2%5F4%5F2%5Frf.htm
for your detailed inspection. I like outfits that
tell you what they are doing, not "because I said so."
chevron also wants to tell you that they have greatly improved hydrocracking at
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/tema/clg%5F1a.shtm
and I think we have at least one place now to kill
a couple hours looking for the ultimate definition
Thanks,
Al
The MSDS sheet should say what it is and I'm guessing 2-3% ZDDP. That shouldn't be much of a problem until the vehicle is several years old.
Maybe I'll check on that later today ...
The detergent & dispersant package in those oils is awfully strong and will clean up a dirty engine quite quickly ... perhaps too quickly if the chunks of crud are substantial. It might plug up small oil passages as well as the filter. >:^O
--- Bror Jace
I just wanted to know if this Delo 400 oil is a cheap route to getting synthetic (or almost synthetic) grade motor oil, for use in a gas engine...
e.g. Castrol: "Hydrocracked = synthetic = Syntec"
but Mobil: "no - Mobil 1 is synthetic, hydrocracked and Syntec are not"
-Karl
When crude oil comes up out of the ground it contains all sorts of heavy and light componants, the very heavy and the very light are both very low value compared to the middle weight componants. The heavy weight fractions are very cheap and can be processed (cracked) into lighter weight componants by using steam/catalysts/pressure to generate more valuable and more usefull compounds..straight chain molecules can be re-arranged into cyclic...Take a look at some distillation columns in the refineries, they have pipes in and out all up and down those columns, heaters at the bottom and condensers at the top...very cool!!!
Cracking (catalytic and hydro) has been a highly used process to obtain lube oils from cheaper heavy hydrocarbons for a LONG time, I think that some companies are just taking advantage of tech terms and using definitions to their advantage, when other companies have been using the same processes and considering them typical processing..
Delo 400 sounds like it has seen some pretty radical processing according to what I read on the Chevron page,,,from what I've seen it seems to be a very good oil, nothing wrong with using it in gas or diesel engines,,,,just depends on if you want that particular viscosity in your particular application...My opinion is that if a motor has 50k+ miles on it and does not have to crank up in <0 deg F, it would work just fine...
I am not a thin oil fan at all, in case you have not read any of my other posts!! To me it sounds like a VERY good way to get some VERY good oil...
Just make sure you want that visc rating and your good to go...
see ya
Rando
When crude oil comes up out of the ground it contains all sorts of heavy and light componants, the very heavy and the very light are both very low value compared to the middle weight componants. The heavy weight fractions are very cheap and can be processed (cracked) into lighter weight componants by using steam/catalysts/pressure to generate more valuable and more usefull compounds..straight chain molecules can be re-arranged into cyclic...Take a look at some distillation columns in the refineries, they have pipes in and out all up and down those columns, heaters at the bottom and condensers at the top...very cool!!!
Cracking (catalytic and hydro) has been a highly used process to obtain lube oils from cheaper heavy hydrocarbons for a LONG time, I think that some companies are just taking advantage of tech terms and using definitions to their advantage, when other companies have been using the same processes and considering them typical processing..
Delo 400 sounds like it has seen some pretty radical processing according to what I read on the Chevron page,,,from what I've seen it seems to be a very good oil, nothing wrong with using it in gas or diesel engines,,,,just depends on if you want that particular viscosity in your particular application...My opinion is that if a motor has 50k+ miles on it and does not have to crank up in <0 deg F, it would work just fine...
I am not a thin oil fan at all, in case you have not read any of my other posts!! To me it sounds like a VERY good way to get some VERY good oil...
Just make sure you want that visc rating and your good to go...
see ya
Rando
http://www.mobil.com/mobil_lubes/onhighway/index.html
and the API service mark would probably rate a level 1 oil as an SA or SB, while SG and higher oils would be from the better bases.
I don't have time this week to dig into multiple web sites due to early morning cut schedules at work, but the outfits that really wanted to sell performance oil should be posting test results of x zillion hours under y-degree stress, with the following chemical changes in the oil performance.
"my mother-in-law left her BilgeOl in her '52 Roadmaster for 25 years, and it's just as good as the day it went in there" is not a valid test program, not broad enough to say anything, but might have something to tell you about the technical qualities of BilgeOl as manufactured
(1) Just about any oil from a major manufacturer will do fine in any gas engine, if changed at reasonable intervals with any filter -- 3000 miles Pennzoil dino juice changes with a Fram filter will probably be fine.
(2) High quality oils + filters at somewhat longer intervals should be just fine also, but may cost somewhat more, and may be overkill, but you won't hurt anything.
(3) The Chevron Delo 400 oil I initially inquired about sounds like it's a pretty good oil: significantly better than standard buck-a-quart dino juice, even if it's arguably not up to the levels of Mobil 1. But the price is right.
So... in the 76,000 mile Jeep engine, which is starting to use a little oil, and sees a mixture of uses (around town, highway trips, and offroad), a 15W-40 oil of GOOD quality should be just fine. I haven't heard any negatives here about using Diesel-rated oils in gasoline engines, especially where the manufacturer says it's also safe to use in gas engines -- e.g. Delo
400.
I think 15W-40 should be fine in this motor. It's crude (ancient pushrod AMC design), it's old (1995 Jeep; 76K miles), and the temperatures where I live aren't so cold that 15W is too thick (Reno, Nevada = wintertime overnight lows are typically 15-25 deg Fahrenheit). Besides, the Jeep is in the garage currently, although will be getting displaced outdoors once my girlfriend buys a new car -- then I think it's block heater time.
-Karl
see ya
Rando
By the way, that Chevron page says the pour point of the Delo 400
15w-40 is -38F, so it should be able to pump fine even down to 0F, which is colder than I ever see (at least colder than I would ever need to crank a car....my main concern is handling summer heat, and that is where it really pays off..
BobIsTheOilGuy believes that the additive package is actually more important than the base oil and the additive package (detergents, dispersants, anti-corrosives and extreme-pressure agents) is extra strong in those oils primarily designed for diesels, much stronger than the current formulations of Mobil 1 0W30-10W30. I'm not sure about their 15W50, though. It may still have an impressive amount of Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate (ZDDP) in it.
I would, however, choose a better (not necessarily more expensive) filter. There are plenty to choose from and there's no reason to reward Fram for putting out an exceptionally low quality filter and charging a middle-of-the-road price for it. Besides, with thicker oils (thicker than 5W30) the Fram's weaker valve will spend a great(er) deal of time in 'bypass' mode and it won't be doing its job. Knowing all that, I couldn't justify using them anymore regardless of your choice among oil brands/types.
--- Bror Jace
The Chevron page said that Delo400 15w40 had zinc at .15% I believe, 5w30 and 10w30 now are .1% since SJ from what I've seen
I use AC Delco's standard filter (forget the name, not the Ultraguard, but the one in the blue box), which is easily found for $2.50-$3.00 apiece. I based this on the mini-mopar site, which concluded that AC Delco was one of the better easily-available (and inexpensive) filters.
-Karl
I'll just go to K Mart and get house-brand Wix filters, and to various places to get Champ made house-brands. No problemo!
Mark
Delvac 1 is an excellent gasoline engine oil. Delvac 1 meets the API SJ service classification, which covers most gasoline automobile engines.
18. I HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT NEW BASE STOCK TECHNOLOGY CALLED HYDROCRACKING OR HYDROPROCESSING THAT IS SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE SYNTHETIC PERFORMANCE AT CONVENTIONAL OIL PRICES. WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS?
Hydroprocessing is a term which refers to a manner in which lube base stocks are made. Hydrocracking is a form of hydroprocessing. A wide quality range of base stocks can, and are, produced by hydroprocessing. The majority of hydroprocessed base stocks, produced in the U.S. today, for the most part, are equivalent to conventionally refined stocks. Although hydroprocessing does offer the potential to provide better performance than conventional stocks, in some applications they do not equal the performance of synthetics.
In fact, what are most important are not the differences in the base stocks themselves, but rather the performance of the finished lube oil using these stocks. In this regard, we are unaware of any product on the market containing conventional, hydroprocessed or any other stock that matches the superior performance of fully synthetic Mobil Delvac 1. The performance requirements for a premium engine oil in current engines involve a wide range of criteria, including:
High- and low-temperature performance, where Mobil
Delvac 1 synthetic stocks excel.
Soot dispersancy (additives and the base stocks must be able to handle high levels of soot), where our data show that hydrocracked stocks may improve performance versus solvent-refined stocks -- but do not reach the levels of performance of Mobil Delvac 1 Synthetics.
Cleanliness and wear protection where Delvac 1 has demonstrated outstanding engine durability performance out to one million miles at extended drains of 60,000-80,000 miles.
If you're REALLY interested in one of the better hydrocracked formulas, go with Valvoline Max-Life which I believe is 100% Griup III hydrotreated stocks.
--- Bror Jace
LUBRICATING BASE OIL
SEVERELY REFINED PETROLEUM DISTILLATE
> 75.00%
ADDITIVES
< 25.00%
ZINC ALKYL DITHIOPHOSPHATE
< 1.60%
Anyway, about Mobil Delvac,
Nothing wrong with that oil for any engine, it excedes diesel specs, which, as I said, are far more stringent than gas engines.
I have ran Delo400 15w40 on ALL my engines and have consistently seen 250,000+ on those engines.
Could be from good servicing practices, but from personal experience and oil sampling, Delo works just fine. I work on a fleet of well over a thousand vehicles, with extensive oil sampling and almost all vehicles run Delo 15w40 or a fleet equivelant. We have very few oil related failures and the ones we have are not from the oil, but from contamination getting into the oil.
Alot of oil related failures aren't because of the oil someone is using, but from contamination from an outside source. Dirt, water, coolant and SOOT are the most common causes of contamination.
Did the vehicles originally call for a different wt oil?
Did you use any thinner oil previously, and did the fuel mileage change when you switched?
I live in central NC, temps rarely get anywhere close to 20F but get plenty hot during summer...I am not a huge fan of 10w30 on engines older than about 50k miles.
see ya
Rando
Again, API's decision in Mobil vs. Castrol has encouraged markting departments to come up with new names for the same old chemical compounds. What was it that Pennzoil used to claim was in their oils? ZL-7 or soemthing like that?
It's all a lot of silly marketing. I ignore it as much as I can. >;^)
--- Bror Jace
Yes. The temp range here is from 20 degrees(rarely) to 90 (not too often)
Did the vehicles originally call for a different wt oil?
Some gas engine vehicles specify 10w30, but because we are a large fleet, there are very few that we do not run the 15w40 in and 60% of our fleet is still under warranty.
Did you use any thinner oil previously, and did the fuel mileage change when you switched?
Not really, but then again, the oil is changed out in most cases before the vehicles get out in the field.
Is this process/brand the paradigm for this movement, or what? I refer to "hydrocracked" motor oil.
I think this is the trend that we are headed. Until synthetic motor oil comes down in price and is more readily accepted, the "hydrocracked" motor oils are being enhanced continually.
Chevron's Delo400 15w40 and NAPA's Fleet 15w40 are both very similar products. They are considerably cheaper than synthetic and realistically, at 5,000-7,000 mile oil changes intervals, the synthetic makes little difference.
Just my opinion.
I have heard of nothing wrong with the Delo400 oil,,,what does "DEL" mean anyway,,,DELO400, DELVAC-1??
see ya
Rando
Three months ago I put in Valvoline, 5W-30 Durablend in my oldest car (1988 172K). The engine runs very quiet and smooth. I immediately noticed the difference. I've only had to add about half a cup of oil to keep it at the top most level of full. This crazy oil even cleaned off the fine coat of varnish that has been on the dipstick for years.
This is also designed to reduce sludge. The new standard can only increase to 250% thicker in 80 hours. The SJ standard was 240% in 60 hours. the oil in this test is heated to 320 degrees farenheit.
Holler all you want about the 5W-20, but the Ford standard requires that the 240% thickening occur only after 120 hours on the anti-sludge test.
If we (the customers) tell them to go pound sand and we use 5W30 or 10W30 in those cars, then why should the Federal Gov't allow them to use test results obtained when 5W20 is in the crankcase towards their CAFE numbers?
So, they have to strongly recommend owner's use this ultra thin oil in order to get approval from the Feds.
--- Bror Jace
The shelves seem to still be loaded with SJ. My vague recollection is that this "hang over" of the old oil standard is longer than previous experience.
My problem with Ford and Honda on this matter is that there is a perception on my part that vehicles running 5W-20 will be worn down much sooner than if they had been run on a diet of 5W-30.
The reason for that is because most of our vehicles have to retrofitted before they go into the field. Between going in and out of the shops, being run back and forth to modification shops and the amount of time that elapses from delivery to being put into service, the vehicles are serviced as a last thing before they go into service.
Rando