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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Not that one believes everything on the internet, but MSN Autos has the TSX at 40' for the turning radius: http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/spec_Exterior.aspx?year=2008&make=Acura&model=- TSX&trimid=-1 - even Edmunds has it at 40': http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/acura/tsx/100890850/specs.html

    Even my S40 T5 FWD has a 34.9' turning circle.

    -Brian
  • chirocatchirocat Member Posts: 73
    I have a 2008 TL-S with 6M and about 3000 miles on it now. I am averaging 23 mpg (calculated, computer says 24-25) and I accelerate rather briskly and the freeway portion is at a median speed of 80 mph. I imagine that if I drove slower or acellerated easier I might get 2 mpg more, but nothing is worth going slow. :P

    I recently fueled up near the freeway, did a hard acceleration to get on the main road, then another hard run on the on ramp and then drove about 8 miles at 80 mph and saw an indicated 28 mpg, clearly the stop and go takes it's toll on my commute, and it's only 1/3 of the miles. Still, I could not be happier, I love the car and it's hard to cough at 23 mpg average in any car that weighs over 3000 lbs, let alone one that is a luxury car with nearly 300 hp.
  • irvine555irvine555 Member Posts: 5
    I'm looking to buy a TL at the end of the year. I know by then the '09s will be out. How much of a price drop do yall think they will have on the 08 models (especially since they'll be 3rd generation unlike the 09's). Also do yall think with the new options on the '09 models that are being discussed on this forum (AWD and more horsepower) it's worth it to get an '09 or just get the '08.

    P.S.---I live in Louisiana so front wheel drive is not a problem (we don't see snow but every 10 years, lol). Also do yall think its worth it to get the S-type since its just a few thousand more than the basic one with the Nav. system.

    Thanks so much
  • johninnjjohninnj Member Posts: 243
    I fondly remember the mpg of my TL days....it made my G35 feel like an old Muscle car. Anything with 250+ hp in stop and go is gonna suck....but the TL is amazing on the highway.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I wouldn't go as far as saying amazing...

    Not to get into a mine is better than yours, but...

    My Q45 with a 340hp V8 routinely achieves over 25mpg on the highway. I once (painfully) stuck to the speed limit and achieved 28mpg. I even hit 25mpg total for an entire trip.

    But...around town it does suck the gas back...I average 17-19 combined (usually stop and go highway travel ).

    I've never had below 16mpg or greater than 20 for combined driving.

    I had a G35 (03) and it would get a combined 19-20mpg

    You do hear about 335i's, 911's getting impressive mpg and both have high hp/performance figures.

    I'd say the TL is "ok", but not great.
  • johninnjjohninnj Member Posts: 243
    Sorry if we differ (I've always though the Q was about the most ignored performance sedan ever for the record) 70-80 mph on New Jersey Turnpike would ALWAYS yield very high 20's or low 30's in the TL with auto...and I have a pretty heavy foot. Around town they all suck....no question there.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    My Q45 with a 340hp V8 routinely achieves over 25mpg on the highway.

    Interestingly enough the 1001 HP Bugatti achieves 22 mpg on the highway, but to drive it in traffic you have have a gas station in tow. :)
  • riorebelriorebel Member Posts: 20
    It will be hard for anyone to answer that question for you. I had no intention of getting the S-type, but after driving the Infiniti G35, the base TL did not have enough power for me. I was willing to pay for the extra horsepower.

    If you don't care as much about the difference in power, I'd save the money and buy the base model. The lip spoiler is not that attractive, IMO, and the other differences are not significant.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    We'd differ again ;)

    The Q's not very sporty (at all). Far to mushy, floaty, isolated and over-boosted (wife's idea).

    It's powerful; especially once underway and the tranny kicks down.

    I'd take a manual TL over the Q any day :blush:
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Is that the same Bugatti that runs through a full tank of gas in 12 minutes at top speed? :surprise:

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  • pv2pv2 Member Posts: 37
    Re the Bugatti, at top speed (253mph) you'd cover 50 miles in 12 minutes. Don't know where you can find a stretch that long anywhere (legal or not). :(
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I-5 north of the grapevine there's nothing for hundreds of miles. I-15 running out to vegas has long - 50+ mile stretches with nothing. I've done hyper-legal speeds on both.
  • riorebelriorebel Member Posts: 20
    All that being said, how likely is it that you could go 253mph for 50 miles without being stopped?

    If you can do that, even on I-15, you need to go immediately to the casino and start betting like hell, because you've got some serious mojo going. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Wait a minute...who would be able to stop you in a Bugati V anyway?

    Oh, I get it! Just wait until the gas runs out and you eventually will get see it on the side of the road. As I remember, there is no gas for huge stretches between after the CA line and Vegas.

    Regars,
    OW
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    They can only go 50 miles... Just catch up at the next gas station.. :D

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  • adamr001adamr001 Member Posts: 95
    In the Bugatti, at top speed and assuming a near fuel tank you've only got ~10 minutes of fuel. On top of that, your tires are only good for about ~15 minutes. Sourced from Top Gear's commentary on the car making it's legendary "proof" run at the Volkswagen test track.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7DnPaPBuec
  • beradberad Member Posts: 31
    If you are between an A3 and an IS 250 and scratching your head then look at consumer reports.... Only 53% of owners would buy the A3 again - this is the bottom of the barrel. The IS 250 RWD is 78% -- this is near the very top of the list. All in all the odds are that you will be happier with the IS 250.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    All in all the odds are that you will be happier with the IS 250.

    That is if he enjoys a mind numbing boring drive. :P
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That is if he enjoys a mind numbing boring drive.

    Not if he gets a X/sports package with manual tranny. ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I have to disagree, even with a manual transmission, the IS250 is exceedingly boring to drive, it's just too, ummm, errr, Lexus like. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Okay... but we are not talking about IS250 vs 328i here...

    If the X/Sports package is not good enought then get those aftermarket spring sets like Eibach or Tein. Those will transform the car like one couldn't imagine.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Who said anything about a 328i? To be quite honest, the A3, even in FWD guise, is even more involving to drive than the 328i, which is of course leaps and bounds beyond the IS250. If you don't believe me, you might want to go drive one some time, that little A3 is an absolute blast to drive.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I did, and they are no "leaps and bounds" beyond the IS250. Especially for the FWD A3.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well, to each his own. The IS was just way too numb, isolated and soft for my tastes, that said, I suppose that is the exact thing some folks like. I don't understand it, but there it is. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Soft? An X/sports package IS250 is softer than the "leaps and bounds" FWD A3?

    Okay...

    Oh by the way, the last FWD A4 that I had for 2 weeks was pretty isolated and soft as well, not to mention the craptaculour turbo lag for the 2.0 turbo 4.

    I guess it's time to agree to disagree.

    ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    A stock FWD A4 isn't even remotely the same Audi as the one we're discussing here, different chassis, different drivetrain, different just about everything except the name of the manufacturer. Maybe I'm missing something here but I thought that we were discussing the IS250 and the A3. Yes, no?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • irvine555irvine555 Member Posts: 5
    Riorebel, why did you choose the TL over the G35?

    Also why did anyone else on this board choose the TL over the G35 or the Lexus IS 250?

    Besides the look what caught your eye and/or made the decision for you?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    So why not also look at the RX-8?

    Oh, right. Let me guess. You want the car to be sporty and not a soulless jellybean like the IS250 AND get 30mpg. Good luck with that one.

    Honestly, though, the RX-8 will blow the doors off of the IS250, A4, or base 3 series.(obviously if you could afford a M3, you would have bought one ;) )
  • pv2pv2 Member Posts: 37
    I agree with blueguy. While CR isn't my first stop for auto information (I read the major auto mags for that) but I do take a look at CR's customer reactions and reliability data. My car ownership experiences over the past 30+ years track very well against their ratings. They're not enthusiasts but they have a great database.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    In the beginning this thread was started by someone who was looking for opinions on the IS250 and the A3, and that was what we discussed. Then the 328i was added, then the A4 2.0T FWD, now the RX-8. Hmmm, as much as I like and admire the RX-8, it isn't a car that fits my needs nor is it really germain to this conversation.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    Can I chime in? :blush:
    My short list was the IS250, the Acura TL and the G35x.
    I drove the IS250 and although fit and finish was outstanding, the size was a deal breaker for me, since I had a 4 yr old daughter who had to be comfy in the back. The lack of power had me worried about the novelty wearing off as well.
    That brought me to the TL and the G35x.
    I had to really weigh the pros and cons to come to a decision. Honestly, both are awesome cars and you can't go wrong with either one.
    For me, the G just gave me a feeling that the TL could not. The dealer, where I bought my 06 MDX, gave me a TL loaner on 7 separate days... one being a Type-S as well.
    As much as I enjoyed them (especially the MPG), I got bored with them.

    The G (for me) is WAY more fun to drive. It has more power and I felt more in control of the G as well. It offers more feedback (in a good way)
    I now have AWD when I need it (It's fantastic in the snow!) and RWD performance at any other time.
    Also, I found that my right knee hits the center console in the TL and my left arm, which I like to rest on the window edge, was uncomfortable. The window edge was too high and the arm rest was too low.
    The "Studio on Wheels" stereo in the G is more enjoyable and I also feel that the fit/finish/ level of luxury in the G is higher than that of the TL. I love the look of the real rosewood trim in my car and how it contrasts with the black interior.
    I also have absolutely no rattles after 14,000 miles and one year of driving.

    Again, this is all personal preference.
    I liked both cars, but the G just did it better for me.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Shipo, IYO, how does the 1-series compare with the A3? Which tips the scales for performance vs. utility?

    Regards,
    OW
  • irvine555irvine555 Member Posts: 5
    Thank you scottm123, that's exactly what I was looking for. The 3 cars you named are the exact 3 I'm looking at right now. I currently do not have any children, but I do hope to start a family in a few years, so that does factor in.

    I think like you said, I won't know what car is right for me until I drive them.

    I graduated from LSU (Geaux Tigers) last year and got a pretty good job. I've been driving a Toyota Corolla for 7 years now, so any car I choose should be a significant upgrade.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Wow, I'd call the response of a 184 ft-lb @6000k+ rpm of IS250 a wee bit lazy compared to the 207 ft-lbs@~2k rpm of the A3.

    To each his own.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    If you want performance, dont even think about the IS250, there are cars that perform way better than that car. However, if you are talking luxury appointments, you cant go wrong with the IS250. Lexus poured its heart into that cars fit & finish. Reliablity is great on the IS as well.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Oh yeah, there are definitely cars that perform way better than the IS250. Just to name a few: M3, RS4, Cayman, 911...

    However, with the 70.4 mph through the slalom that puts the IS 250 ahead of the BMW 335i, not to mention about a half dozen very capable sports cars.

    Granted the IS is no 3-series but it's funny that people are trying to make it sounds like a Camry.

    Source: Follow-Up Test: 2007 Lexus IS 250
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    However, with the 70.4 mph through the slalom that puts the IS 250 ahead of the BMW 335i, not to mention about a half dozen very capable sports cars

    Yep, one review has it 1 mph faster through the slalom. But hard to beat the 4.8 to sixty.
  • activex111activex111 Member Posts: 41
    I think this is not really a fair comparison. A3 and R-8 and M3 and IS250, they dont fall in same league.. I was looking for "Affordable" fun to drive luxury car, that's why A3 and IS250. I agree that A3 has a punch to its drive, but practically everyone shares that the Audi dealer service is bad, including my own test drive experience .. May be Audi has a special program, "How to treat your customers like crap!!":O). apart from the drive, if are going to keep the car for atleast 2-3 yrs, then the whole experience counts (pouring oil, dealer visits etc).. I checked IS250 again and again and the rear seat looks more tighter to me every time :o) I usually dont have passengers in my car but, the rear space almost looks like it i made for kids, thats why i am leaning towards A3 now. Saw a 2006 A3 for with 30K miles for $24K and a 2006 IS250 with 35K miles for $27K.. Granted R8 must be much more fun, but it wont be when you sign that monthly payment check ;)
    My quest (still....) continues..
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    But hard to beat the 4.8 to sixty.

    Wait, I thought the straight line performance isn't all that important in a sports sedan...

    ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yes, the IS250's rear seat is REAL tight, to have adults sitting in the back on any trips over an hour would be a pretty terrible idea. However, since my rear seat is normally unoccupied about 99.9% of the time that's really not an issue for me.

    My suggestion is that make sure you think about this thoroughly, if the tight rear seat bugs you then just turn around and look for something else.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    "Oh yeah, there are definitely cars that perform way better than the IS250. Just to name a few: M3, RS4, Cayman, 911... "

    I thought this was assumed knowledge, I was talking about cars in the $20-$40k range, unless if you also wanted to thrown in the Bugatti :)

    I have read the IS's slalom is great but you will have a tough time trying to convince anyone that the IS250 performs at par with any of the ELLPS.

    Choosing btwn the IS250 and the A3 is not going to be easy though, cos one has better performance and the other has everything else IMO
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    How is the RX-8 not a entry-level performance sedan? (luxury being mostly artificial leather and fake wood trim on any of these, I don't consider ANY of these "luxury" cars).

    Oh wait - you're actually going to claim that the IS250 actually has a useable middle rear seat? These cars are plainly built to fit four people, which is what the RX-8 does as well. And none will fit a linebacker in the rear seat, so I fail to see that point, either. The rear seats are there for kids and the occasional third adult in these small sedans. It's not a coupe, either - that's visual trickery. There really are four doors on it.

    I'd recommend at least driving it. Mazda's lack of positioning it properly or marketing it well aside, it's .1 second slower than a Porsche Cayman and is virtually identical on the track. For half the price. There's just nothing that comes close to it in its price range as far as performance goes. But it's like Hyundai or Volvo if you want to go back even further. People gave Volvo no respect for decades and then they came out with the 850 Turbo. And it blew the doors off of everything in its price range. Yes, it wasn't a Mercedes. Nobody who owned one cared - they were too busy having a blast driving them.

    $29K on and IS250, $32K on a 328i, $28K on an A4... or $24K on a RX-8.
    CarsDirect Price: $23,843(including delivery). That's an enormous amount cheaper than the competition. You could load one up with every last option offered and still not be at what a bare-bones IS250 goes for(no leather, either).

    CarsDirect Price: $28,710 - IS250. No HID headlamps, no heated seats, no sport suspension, no ... (don't even gt me started on the A4 in base trim) Add that stuff in ad it jumps to $33K almost instantly.
    CarsDirect Price: $28,408 - RX-8 GT/+ rear spoiler. If you want more bling, you have to start adding chrome and after-market accessories.

    $5K out the door cheaper buys a lot of gas.(5pmg difference is roughly 7100 gallons to make up at 3.50 a gallon)

    It's also the same reason a Prius is a no-win situation versus a Civic. 5mpg difference for thousands more in initial price is going to take you well over a decade to recover. Maybe two.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    you will have a tough time trying to convince anyone that the IS250 performs at par with any of the ELLPS

    Then don't, let the number speaks for itself...

    Except for the straightline acceleration I think the IS250 can hold its own against any other ELLPS.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Wait, I don't get it. Why are you taking shots at me? I like the RX-8, a lot, and I think that the IS250 is a total poseur sporting sedan that is numb to drive and has such a small back seat that I wouldn't even subject my 14 year old to it for a trip to school. The only reason why I was dismissing the RX-8 for this thread is that the OP is trying to decide between an IS250 and an A3.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The RWD, sports package, stick shift IS250 is a poseur sports sedan while the FWD, automatic A3 is not?

    Interesting...
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    As far as I know, the IS, 3 series, Infiniti G35, Acura TL & Audi A3/4 use real leather. On the 3 series you get leatherette if you want and they dont try to hide this. I believe only the Acura TL does not use real wood otherwise every other car above uses real leather.

    If you are going to include the Mazda why stop there, bring in the Hyundai Azera, Dodge Charger, etc. I think the reason the Mazda is left out is because its not "generally" considered to belong in the same group as the cars I included above. Or put another way, people aspire to drive a BMW, an Audi a Lexus, I am yet to come across people who aspire to drive a Mazda
  • riorebelriorebel Member Posts: 20
    Honestly, there are some good reasons you might choose the TL over the G35, but my main reason was my wife. She has a strange dislike of most Japanese cars, particularly Nissan (I think it goes back to one bad experience with a Sentra we had about 10 years ago.) When I took her with me to drive the G35, she hated it - a biased opinion, I'm sure. But I have to admit that it is a bit smaller than the TL, and I also like the slightly better mileage and the look of the TL better, as well.

    By the way, I am a HUGE Bama fan and I was pulling hard for you. Way to geaux, Tigers! (SEC fans learn to stick together here in Big Ten country!)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    If you are going to include the Mazda why stop there, bring in the Hyundai Azera, Dodge Charger, etc. I think the reason the Mazda is left out is because its not "generally" considered to belong in the same group as the cars I included above. Or put another way, people aspire to drive a BMW, an Audi a Lexus, I am yet to come across people who aspire to drive a Mazda.
    ****

    And that's probably the truth here, like I said. Nobody wants to say, look at a Hyundai Tiburon or a Volvo S40T5 or whatnot most of the time. It's their money I guess, but as I pointed out, the price difference buys a decade's worth of extra gas and then some(140K miles or so for 5mpg difference!). The smart money is to ignore the inflated bling-mobiles where you're plainly paying through the nose for their products and instead start looking at the alternatives.

    Honestly, I'd rather own a blinged-out WRX than a base 328i with pleather and that miserable base engine. You can always add leather to a car, or a sunroof, even after-market if you have to, so you have to think really hard about the following question:

    - Is the car primarily an entry-level luxury or entry-level sportscar?

    IME, when people talk about this segment, bling is of far lower importance than the performance. It's always "I got a BMW and yeah it has leather and some nice features(revs the engine and grins)". Not, "I got this C Class and yeah it is sort of sporty" :P

    So ignore the bling and badge. Find a nice sportscar and add the bling in. Almost every maker has silly levels of luxury and bling as packages these days. You'll find that the field widened considerably.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    You know what, you just described a lesson I learnt the hard way. I bought one of the luxury brands I noted in my earlier post, it had the base engine and had lots of toys, real leather, real wood, almost everything. That base engine was crap, I mean everybody from Honda Accord to Honda Civic Si was faster than me in my Luxury brand. I learnt that the engine comes first with a car, then consider the luxury component. I sold the base luxury sedan recently (after one and a half years of onwership) and got a 3.5 litre, +300hp luxury brand. Now I am happy.

    I left out the names cos I dont want to seem as if I am bashing the other car cos other than the engine, that car was awesome
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    ". . .a base 328i with. . .that miserable base engine."

    Interesting phrase to apply to that particular powerplant. I've never seen anything that comes even remotely close in its ability to illustrate the "different strokes for different folks" concept.

    Let's see, scalpel or chainsaw?

    Both cut, and one is certainly faster.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
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