Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1204205207209210435

Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    How is the RX-8 not a entry-level performance sedan? (luxury being mostly artificial leather and fake wood trim on any of these, I don't consider ANY of these "luxury" cars).

    They're not luxury cars. What Edmunds considers a luxury car

    People gave Volvo no respect for decades and then they came out with the 850 Turbo.

    And Volvo still doesn't get respect.

    RX-8 appeals to a niche audience. The back seat is unusable, while in the IS250 it's barely useable. Unless you're driving pygmies around all day. The RX-8 gets you Mazda service, while the IS250 gets you Lexus service. The RX-8 wins as a better track vehicle, the IS250 with AWD wins as a better street vehicle. The RX-8 has to be revved to the moon to get horsepower. If 100% of your driving is on the track, I agree RX-8 wins. For the rest of us....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You are not the target market for a 528 either :)
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    No I will never buy the 528, Lexus GS350 is a far better car IMO. Infiniti M35 is also a better buy for the price. I canr afford those cars though :cry:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    M35 is also a better buy for the price.

    The 5 has been the consistent sales leader in this segment. Maybe BMW is giving the people what they want, although I can certainly understand why this car isn't for you.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    Back in '05, my final two were the TL and the G35x. I chose the TL because the TL offered (imo, of course):

    Smoother, quieter ride. G had a bit too much road/wind noise. And while the engine growl is kinda lovely, I just heard it too much.
    Better styling, both exterior and interior. Higher quality interior bits and pieces.
    Better mpg (child of "gas crisis" '70s...)
    I didn't really want the added weight/complexity of AWD. I'm a lifelong New Englander and skier, FWD has just done me fine (until the TL! Another story, but get snow tires...)

    Of course, this was Gen 1 G35. Fun to drive, powerful and I'm sure had I chosen it I'd be all smiles. But, my priorities ruled in the TLs favor. And I still dig it!

    As Gen 2 G is an improvement, just test drive the heck out of each of 'em. No wrong decision will be made. Also, note that a new gen TL is just down the road...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Or put another way, people aspire to drive a BMW, an Audi a Lexus, I am yet to come across people who aspire to drive a Mazda

    Those people who aspire to drive an Audi or BMW or Lexus must not have access to autotrader or used cars? Average sale price of cars is 30k. A 3 series moderately outfitted can run less than that. Audi's go in the 20s. Shrug. With the explosion of 30k+ SUVS and Crossovers, I doubt anyone really aspires to drive a Lexus or Bimmer.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    Yes you are right, the 5 sells almost twice as much as the GS or the M35. I think you present a good argument that BMW is giving people what they want. I cant dispute that, the sales support this. You took the argument to a segment I am not very familiar with, as I said before, I can't afford the car in that segment, and my comments will not really hold water, but here goes.

    For 52k, I can get an almost fully loaded GS350. For the same amount, I am not going to get the same options in the 528, now, given that the GS350 is faster than the 528, I think the Lex is a better buy. I dont believe one should drive a car that is worth 50k and have cheaper cars, run circles around such a car. This to me is totaly unacceptable. If one pays 50k, you need a car that has everything else that the cheaper cars have, plus more. The GS350 gives you that, the 528 does not.

    I believe BMW makes good cars, but the pricing does not make sense to me, I attribute the higher prices to lack of the economies of scale that Nissan and Toyota has, since their luxury brands share the same parts as the parent company's cars.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Wow, someone called the 3.0 a miserable engine? that's baffling. I miss two things about my BMWs... RWD and that obscenely smooth engine. Nothing like the inline 6 in any other make. Like buttah.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    but the pricing does not make sense to me, I attribute the higher prices to lack...

    ...of shopping skills?
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    What are you talking about? give me an example of what you mean so I kow exactly where you are coming from.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    "although I can certainly understand why this car isn't for you. "

    educate me :)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I don't want to get OT here, but have you ever driven a Lexus GS? UGH! Drive a GS back to back with a 528i. You say the Lexus is a better buy. Your car priorities must place emphasis on numb steering, touchy brakes, pillow soft suspensions, and gadgets galore (NAV, Mark Levinson Audio). I'm into a car that drives like it doesn't weigh so much with communicative steering, excellent body control and handling ability.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Sure the Lexus is quicker to 60, but who cares. Where's the clutch? What do you do when you have to - god forbid - turn the steering wheel?

    Why not just get a Buick and save $20,000?

    There's nothing like a BMW I-6. It may not be quick, but my friend's E36 325ic (5-speed MT) is a joy to drive just for the sound and feel of that engine. Puts a smile on my face every I drive it.

    These stoplight drag racers just don't get it.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    You can get a 5 series for about 6-7k below MSRP via ED. Add in the $1000 BMWCCA rebate. No reason to pay anything close to msrp on a BMW. So I look at the 50k msrp of a 535i and see 43k (including shipping and profit). Add in leather and sport and you're at 47.5k. A 535i with those options has an MSRP of 55k.

    So, when it comes to shopping for BMWs there are good shoppers and there's everybody else...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I learned that lesson long ago. I always opt for the top engine available in the model line. Served me well so far.

    As for the lesser HP, not everyone uses it so in this case, BMW is a different animal. The US cars I've owned and driven needed the top engine because the base available was SERIOUSLY underpowered....not so with BMW. The power difference is marginal.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    educate me :)

    See above posts by you :)
  • irvine555irvine555 Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for the info riorebel and laurasdada. When the time comes for me to choose (end of the year), I'll probably test drive each one once or twice and then sit down and write my own positives and negatives and then choose. In the end, it doesn't seem like I can go wrong with any choice I make though.

    Question: How much of a diff. is there between the TL compared to the TL-S with regard to how smooth the car rides, handles, etc. Also how does the G-35x compare to its other models the G-35 Journey, etc.

    My girlfriend is the same as your wife riorebel, she hates all American cars (except the Corvette) and she hates Toyotas. I think the hate for Toyotas stems from her having a bad experience with a Corolla (her first car) like 10 years ago (I think it was a '92). She doesn't even want me to look at Lexus. On a side note, my parents have been buying Toyotas for the past 10 years and love them. My mom drives a '97 Avalon (bought brand new in '97), and has only put 32,000 on it in the last 10-11 years (she just pretty much goes to the store and goes home).

    riorebel, thanks for the SEC support. Honestly I cheer for every team in the SEC except AUBURN. As much as BAMA fans hate AUBURN, I would have to say LSU fans are right behind yall on that hate. Yall look to have a promising year (thanks to good recruiting), so good luck this year, except in Tiger Stadium.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    Agreed. I want an automatic car, as many bells and whistles as I can afford, power thats above par, in this day and age 300hp does the trick, no need to be competing with a nissan altima V6 in a 43k 528i.

    Driving dynamics that were described in other posts are a matter of opinion. I will stick with facts here, the engine used in the Lexus 3.5 litre engine is in the wards top ten list, together with the 335i's engine. If you buy a 528i cos of driving dynamics, more power to you, I will buy the faster car, you can stick with your driving synamics behind me :)

    I am in my late 20s, so gadgets are pretty important
  • upstatedocupstatedoc Member Posts: 710
    LD,
    I could have written that post. Back in '05 I felt the TL was just a little more refined with the G being more rough around the edges. I think now though that the G has really improved in the area of refinement and has probably surpassed the current TL. Can't wait to see the '09.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you buy a 528i cos of driving dynamics, more power to you, I will buy the faster car, you can stick with your driving synamics behind me :)

    I am in my late 20s, so gadgets are pretty important


    Different strokes. You are one of the few people who buy cars on stats. I don't. The looks, feel and performance are all factored in. I don't go for gadgets, but there are certain creature comforts I want.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    Correct me if I am wrong but dont you drive a 335i or 535i? Point being you, like me are into the engine output as well

    If I buy a GS350 (again, I cant affors it :) ) is it not true that its going to have more gadgets, more power, more modern interior (the keyless thing among other things) than a 528i. Thats got nothing to do with stats but is the reality. The more I pay, the more I need, that includes power and everything else that comes with it. Driving dynamics is something I will define, I will not let anyone else define it for me.

    Driving dynamics is a point you can raise for the comparison btwn a 535i to a GS350, there the dynamics come into play, certainly not for the 528i. I can assure you the driver of the GS350 is going to feel pretty good smoking that 528i ;)
  • billyperks2billyperks2 Member Posts: 378
    I am not taking sides here with the BMW fans because my next car will possibly be a GS 350.I just wanted to share this experience with you in regards to horsepower, I had a 2003 Acura TL Type S which boast 260 hp.My friend has a older 528I that has 198 hp and everytime we race he was down on my tail.You would think that a 260 hp would blow the doors off 198 hp bimmer.My point is, its not only hp that dermines a car's speed, its the torque, gear ratios, weight, driver etc etc.
    Another remarkable example- I saw a Mazda Miata beat a Ferrari and Porsche on Motorsport TV last Saturday-expalin that to me?
  • scottm123scottm123 Member Posts: 1,501
    Also keep in mind that your question will be answered with more people leaning toward the TL, being that you are asking within the TL thread.
    I like the TL enough that I still pop in here from time to time, but me and my love for the G can't stand a chance against all these TL lovers.

    Ask the same question in the G forum and you'll get the exact opposite response.

    I still like these guys in the TL forum... even with their less than perfect choice in vehicle. :P ;):blush:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You can get a 5 series for about 6-7k below MSRP via ED

    One can probably get a GS350 close to invoice now a days so that's already something like 4k below MSRP.

    By the way, does BMW pay for my ticket to Germany and all the room and boards? If not then maybe one should take that into consideration in order to make an apple to apple comparison which a good shopper always does.

    Also, let's not forget the rental car fee if this is your only car because I believe with ED one would have to turn in the car at the time of purchase if a trade-in is involved. Because the car doesn't arrive until something like 4 weeks after you took delivery in Germany.

    A smart and good shopper always takes every single penny into the consideration.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Best of luck to that GS owner should the road have a curve, bend, hill or really anything that requires some kind of chassis-athleticism.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    By the way, does BMW pay for my ticket to Germany and all the room and boards? If not then maybe one should take that into consideration in order to make an apple to apple comparison which a good shopper always does.

    It's called a vacation. ;) Some people take those. Sadly in the US we don't get nearly enough PTO. My last vacation was two weeks in Thailand in Nov, 07. Before that I spent a few weeks in Europe for my 06 ED. Whether I get a car or not, another trip to Europe will be in the cards.

    Also, let's not forget the rental car fee if this is your only car because I believe with ED one would have to turn in the car at the time of purchase if a trade-in is involved.

    There's a word for someone that trades in cars on purchase. Barnum used it...what is that word...

    A smart and good shopper always takes every single penny into the consideration.

    I could break all that down for you too but it'll get boring. Needless to say, Frequent Flyer miles are easy to create with credit cards and free hotel stays and/or great deals are easy to find too. :)
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    Of course, if the "TL Lover" posts the facts (and opinions) regarding their choice of the TL over the G, then it is good food for thought for those requesting information. Of course, the buyer should do their own DD.

    If Fanboys simply scream that "X is better than Y" becuause Motor Trend and CR said so, so I bought "X," well, stay away from Syms. Because "An educated consumer is the best customer...!"

    1st Gen G, great car. An eye-opener in Munich no doubt. Gen 2, a lovel evolution. Hello, 300hp 3 series! Let's see what Honda does w/next gen TL...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • irvine555irvine555 Member Posts: 5
    scottm123, I understand that pretty much everyone on this forum is going to be biased since 99% bought or plan to buy a TL, but that's part of the reason why I want to hear their opinions. I want to know what made them choose the TL over the G35 or the Lexus IS. Im glad you're on here too, because you allow me to see the other side of the coin.

    Thanks
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    It's called a vacation.

    I usually go somewhere else for vacations other than Europe. Also, what if my car buying schedule doesn't agree with my vacation schedule?

    Frequent Flyer miles are easy to create with credit cards and free hotel stays and/or great deals are easy to find too.

    I have frequent flyer miles too but I would rather use them for my "real vacations" instead of going to Europe and pick up the car. Also, I rather use my credit cards to create more meaningful incentives such as racking up thousands of dollars for my next Lexus purchase. ;)

    I understand that based on YOUR lifestyle ED is certainly a good and smart option for car shopping. However, let's keep in mind that it may not be the case across the board for every car shoppers out there.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Best of luck to that GS owner should the road have a curve, bend, hill or really anything that requires some kind of chassis-athleticism.

    The GS is no 5er but it'll hold its own on curvy and hilly roads.

    I've tried a GS350 through an autoX type of course before, although it is a bit on the soft side but it went through the course smoothly.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Naturally it's personal. ;)
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    Look at the 0-60 & quarter mile times of the 528i and the GS350, The GS is still faster. I am just calling a spade a spade here.

    There is a general tendency for the X28i to be overrated, yes its a BMW but its not the real deal, the real deal is the X35i. I have respect for that car, its fast and if you tell me its got better driving dynamics, heck, I will believe you. In addition, you probably paid more than anyone else driving the ELLPS so you deserve to be faster. It boils down to the "more money I pay, more I need" argument. With the kind of performance you get for the X35i, the lack of other options available on other ELLPS becomes petty. Not on the X28i though
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    There is a general tendency for the X28i to be overrated,

    I'm not defending the X2.8 but clearly this is your humble opinion. I agree specificially with regards to you, you should pay more for more horsepower. Everybody doesn't think like that and BMW recognizes this.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I think that you are entirely too caught up in straight line acceleration, and if that's your only yardstick, go buy a WRX and be done with it. There are plenty of people who would consider the x28i over the x35i, and for many reason, me included. When I leased my 2002 530i I made the conscious decision NOT to get a 540i (or an M5 for that matter). Why? Because the 530i was plenty fast enough for my needs, wants and desires. I don't constantly need to prove my manhood by blowing every slammed Honda away at every light, I buy the car for me. Period, full stop, the end.

    Some time in the next year I'll be buying a new car, and the top five contenders are as follows:
    1) Audi 2.0T 6-Speed S-Line (via European Delivery)
    2) 2001-2003 BMW 530i Sedan 5-Speed Sport Package
    3) BMW 328i Coupe 6-Speed Sport Package (via European Delivery)
    4) BMW 328i Sedan 6-Speed Sport Package (via European Delivery)
    2) 2001-2002 BMW 540i Sedan 6-Speed Sport Package

    Notice that every one of those cars can be had with a bigger/badder/faster (and thirstier) engine. FWIW, the only reason why the 540i is on the list is that I really like E39s with a stick shift and lots of other goodies, goodies that are often hard to find in the 530i but yet seem to be on virtually every 540i from that vintage.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    I was not only looking at straight line acceleration, if you read my posts I also considered options available on these 2 cars and the Lex comes on top. WRX is not my piece of cake, in fact I was in a friends 400+ hp Pontiac GTO and that car is certainly not my piece of cake either, although its way faster than a 335i. Given a choice btwn the GTO and the 335i, I would take the 335i even if its more expensive.

    I agree speed is not everyone's concern, like I said, I want everything I can get for my money, that includes power, toys, luxury. I only consider cars within the ELLPS though, thats what I drive
  • jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    I have been driving a C6 for 3 years and I hear you about speed. This car is wicked fast and I almost get tired of having to constantly monitor my speed. I tend to find cars that I can follow at a respectful distance just so I will keep the speed down. With the traffic flows where I live there are very few chances to really feel the speed and I have done the club racing game already. I am currently looking at moving to a wagon, possibly a 328i. It sucks getting old and becoming more rational.
  • riorebelriorebel Member Posts: 20
    Actually, I admitted that my main reason for buying a TL-S over a G35 was my wife's taste. That doesn't sound very fanboish to me. :)

    That being said, I am very happy with my choice, and I don't regret it in the least.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Let us know how you like it. The 328it fascinates me because of its more utilitarian shape while still offering RWD and a manual.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Well, sjaieve settled the discussion. He's looking at cars and he prefers the straighline acceleration and plethora of gadgets in the Lexus compared to the "base model" 528i. You're in your late 20's and want a GS? My late 20's weren't THAT long ago (I'll be 32 in April) and I didn't want anything as big, heavy, quiet, and burdened by a slushbox car like the GS. To each his own. Good luck!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    In my 20's, I had an Alfa Spider, a Sentra SE-R, and a Miata. Why on earth would a 20-something want to own a 4000 lb slush box land-barge like the GS?!?!

    Oh well, whatever floats your boat grandpa.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    I really want to end this but just felt I had to respond to this. If you read all my posts I said I cannot afford a GS350 so I have never looked at buying one but someone posed the question if I would consider a base 5 series, and I said never. There are better cars e.g. the GS350 cos it gives more bang for the buck and I dont buy base models anymore etc etc etc. I drive a car in the ELLPS segment, my money follows where my mouth/posts is/are. We can repeat he arguments all over again but lets move on. I cant convince you in as much as you cant convince me.

    Now how about the A3 or IS250 comparison. I still insist its a tough choice
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    "Like buttah."

    Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full.

    I've owned two straight sixes in my life, and both were wonderful. One was in my 240Z and the other was my Cummins 350. I owned them both at the same time, and the switch between them was interesting, but pleasant.

    I wanted the third to be a BMW, but I've bored many with my rants on RFTs and the dipstick thing (how far away is the sealed hood -- only the dealer can open it?). So, not for now.

    Maybe later. We'll see.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Just replaced my RFTs on my cooper - did the same with my e90 - and wow. Nice difference. As for what happens with a flat: the American Express Business card comes with free roadside assistance.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Pontiac GTO and that car is certainly not my piece of cake either, although its way faster than a 335i

    Or not. Well that not entirely true it's .2 seconds faster for having 100 more hp.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    Agreed 100%. 335i is still a much better car IMO than the GTO irrespective of the HP difference. Like I said, I have respect for the 335i, I might not buy it but thats besides the point.
  • chirocatchirocat Member Posts: 73
    You should also ask yourself how you are going to use the car. If you are going to be using it on the track vs a daily driver. Then ask how you drive, some of these cars have very little torque and have to be revved to get average acceleration, as I get older I find it more irritating. Last December I narrowed the choice down to a TL-S, a G35, a CTS-V and a few others. I went with the TL-S and it's pretty much the perfect daily driver. Sure I notice the torque steer and it may only do the 1/4 mile in 14.1, but I can't really use all of that on a daily basis anyway. The other stuff, it's amazing Honda reliability, compliant ride, and upscale interior make daily driving pleasant. The slick 6 speed manual is a joy to row and the engine has enough torque that I can dust 95% of the cars without even engaging the V-Tec. The best part is that despite a heavy foot in the city part of my commute and a median speed of 80 mph on the freeway, I still average 23 MPG. I have just over 3k miles so the mileage might even get better. It's hard to beat this combo. If it was RWD it would be even better. Next year they are talking SH-AWD but I doubt it will have a manual box, so my next car will probably be a 335 or similar.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Oh well, whatever floats your boat grandpa.

    Yeah, that's the spirit, keep it up so people will just turn their backs to this board...

    I am in my 20s, although I wouldn't want a GS/5/E right now but I can understand why those who does. Different people have different priorities you know, grandpa!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Yeah, that's the spirit, keep it up so people will just turn their backs to this board...

    Like fed, nyccarguy has been on these boards for a long time and does have a sense of humor, newbie :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "Yeah, that's the spirit, keep it up so people will just turn their backs to this board..."

    I like reading your posts Louiswei (you provide good balance around here), but you need to lighten up a little.

    I mind my P's and Q's when I'm at the office or at a formal social - but around here, I don't feel obliged to frame my thoughts and carefully phrase them to ensure I don't ruffle anyone's feathers.

    If someone doesn't like the heat, I'm fine with them staying out of the kitchen. In Sjaieve's case, I think he expressed himself quite well and doesn't need a big brother to step in.

    Ok, time to recharge my flamethrower. Who's next? :blush:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I wasn't stepping in for anybody, I just don't like what I saw that's all.

    To be honest, there is a difference between "lighten up a little" and "belittle the fellow posters due to different point of view". Maybe I had the wrong interpretation but that doesn't mean I can't voice my differences.

    Yeah, keep your flamethrower charged up because you'll need it if you keep it up. ;)
Sign In or Register to comment.