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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,725
    I'll guess it's a non-functional link to an ironic image comparing disparate items a la a Lacrosse to a 3... Ooooh, I'm using big words today!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Yes. The Lacrosse, Impala SS and Grand Prix are not good choices for a "performance" car. Although FWD will make them better on slippery winter highways. An AWD performance or better yet, an AWD sport sedan would be best for winter as well as all around driving.

    One point that needs to be made perhaps is that not everyone has the same idea of what is the "best" car. I like my SRX although it is a bit on the thirsty side.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That was a good one there nyccarguy. ;)

    Nah, I actually went to test drive the 335i twice after it came out, I guess my expectation was too high so I didn't end up impressed. The acceleration felt about the same as my IS350 in sports mode and although the handling is definitely better (with sports package that is) but that's an easy fix with the Eibach springs (just got them installed last month).

    I guess the most important issue for me is that I still can't get pass 3er's interior...

    I am really liking the 135i though, too bad that it doesn't come with 2 extra doors.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I guess the most important issue for me is that I still can't get pass 3er's interior...

    Different strokes for different folks. I have always like BMW interiors. :surprise
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "One point that needs to be made perhaps is that not everyone has the same idea of what is the "best" car. I like my SRX although it is a bit on the thirsty side."

    Then just be glad you don't have a 6000 SUX. :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I was just letting everyone know the GN was rear wheel drive and a BUICK. GM has dyslexia. Now, a LaX is sporty...go figure. My dad's RWD Buick Skylark (350ci V-8) was more fun to drive than a non-descript LaX.

    I agree with fedlawman...let's give GM about 5 years to adapt to good cars again. The we can compare and decide if OK to consider them again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Don't all GM divisions have one iteration of a SUX.. for LaX of a better abbreviation!

    Regards,
    OX
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Then just be glad you don't have a 6000 SUX

    Or a Canyonero. :P
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,421
    Sorry bro...couldn't resist :P

    What made you have the Eibach Springs installed? Are you happy with their performance over the stock setup? How much did you lower the car?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, I installed the Eibach springs because I want the lower stance and better handling. I've got them for almost 2 months now and I am happy so far with the performance and the look. With the springs the body roll has been dramatically reduced, the artificial stiffness feel has been replace by a better (or should I say normal) stiffness feel and the steering response also improved slightly. Upon installation, the suspension actually felt softer than the stock setup but once it's settled down after couple weeks, that "softness" was gone. Kind of weird but other users have also reported about this.

    I've lowered the front by 1" and rear by 0.8". It's a mild drop.

    Here are some pictures with the Eibach springs:

    image

    image

    image
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Looks sharp!
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,421
    I'm diggin' it! Definitely gives the car a more hunkered down and sharper, aggressive look. I like the dark blue color. Nice background too! I love that left coast weather and scenery! How many miles do you have on the car now?

    Suspension modifications are such a great way to improve your car's performance. I had front & rear SUSPENSION TECHNIQUES sway bars installed in my Prelude a few years ago. For a little over $500, they make such a difference.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Thanks nyccarguy and fedlawman, The lower stance definitely gives the car a more aggressive look. One thing I like about the Europeans such as the 3er and C-class is that with the sports package, the cars are already sit at a lower height than their Japanese counterparts.

    Last time I checked, now I am at at little over 27k miles. You are right about the suspension modifications and I think my next task will be adding strut and sway bars to the car.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I was wondering if someone could check my math. Here goes:

    335d = 30 MPG 36,000 miles @ $4.19/gal = 1,200 gallons = $5,885

    335i = 23 MPG 36,000 mile @ 3.19/gal. = 1,565 gallons = $4,993

    These prices were tonights prices for diesel at an Exxon station vs. premium at an independent in Central NJ.

    Assuming there is a premium price 335d vs. 335i, the diesel is a mute point!

    Correct me if I am wrong. Bottom line, the d uses less fuel but the i is cheaper to keep 'er!

    Regards,
    OW
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    That would require the price of those fuels to remain constant for all 36k miles. Not likely! :sick: Plus, that's only 3 years, what if someone retains the vehicle longer?

    Though, I don't know if diesel will get lower than regular unleaded. It probably will at some point. Maybe as more people get diesel vehicles. :confuse:

    -Brian
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I just filled up with Premium tonight and paid $3.69/gal

    23 MPG 36,000 miles @$3.69/gal = 1565 gallons = $5775.

    Of course, I'm not sure why, but I only average about 19 MPG with my little 4-banger... :blush:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Wow. Diesel in San Diego is $4.09 and premium is $3.79 near my house. For me, diesel is a savings compared to a normal bimmer (about $400 a year at current levels although gas will surely get more expensive).

    .
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    Well, for starters, when I use your numbers I come up with $5028 for the oil burner vs. the (almost) same number you got for the gas. However, I'd submit (as have others) that a $1 delta between premium gas and diesel is an unusual situation, at least anywhere I'm likely to travel.

    Besides which, I neither need nor want a 335d. I'd buy a 2.0 or 2.5 tomorrow if they were available over here, and my experiences in the UK and Europe is that I'll get closer to 40 mpg than 30 with either of those engines. Now, if we were to re-run the calculation with a $0.50 delta between the two fuels and 33% less consumption for the diesel, I think that will be a more useful number, at least to me.

    However, to support your point a bit, diesel has nowhere near the demand flexibility that gasoline has. The trucks, locomotives, heating plants and other users of diesel and similar fuels (jet A for one) will keep right on consuming pretty much regardless of price, while passing the added expense along in the form of higher prices for whatever goods are being transported. As we've already seen over the past few weeks, when gasoline prices go up significantly, people use less -- it's discretionary to a much larger extent.

    Should be interesting to see this play out.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    NJ has the cheaper gas but in any market, the premium vs. diesel price advantage makes me wonder regarding the premium cost of the d vs. the i.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    From the British website:
    335d has a combined rating of 42.2 MPG (imperial)
    335i is 31
    thus one computes 853 gallons of diesel vs 1161 gas (premuim I suppose) for 36,000 miles
    from the AAA price for NJ I get $3.393 for premium and $4.038 for diesel. ( not imperial gallons though)
    adjusting for the size of the gallon (div by 0.8) premuim is $4924 and diesel is $4306

    There are a number of diesel engines that are smaller and use less fuel.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Around here (New Hampshire) in the land of no natural gas availability, our only three options to heat our homes are: 1) Electric, 2) Propane, or 3) Fuel Oil. Typically I see Diesel prices peak relative to Gasoline between December and March. During those months Diesel usually hits thirty to forty cents higher than Premium Gasoline, however, during the summer months, Diesel often gets a dime or so cheaper than Regular Gasoline. While I've never plotted it, my SWAG is that (around here at least) Diesel averages out to be about the same price per gallon as Premium on a year-round basis.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    you may find this graph interesting then
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,725
    No natural gas! Not even in Concord...! ;)

    I guess there's enough in Boston for most of New England...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Must be dem beans. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well, for NJ, the d will not save much money if the current market conditions persist.

    Oh, well, guess well have to wait for the Hydrogen 3er.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Perhaps the point of the diesel is that you would reduce your consumption of petroleum by about 25%. The side effect of more diesel vehicles is that diesel will be more expensive which offsets the cost savings one might expect.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    As I understand it, when crude oil is refined, there are a number of different fuel grades that come from the distillates of various weights. In a typical barrel of crude oil the fuel grade distilled byproducts work out to the following rough percentages:

    1) Gasoline: 51%
    2) Fuel Oil (home heating oil and diesel): 15%
    3) Jet fuel (kerosene): 12%
    4) Still Gas (unrefined natural gas?): 5%

    A couple of points:
    - As I understand it, the above percentages cannot be varied by much.
    - As the demand for petroleum based diesel fuel rises, there will be a commensurate rise in the production of gasoline.
    - I've "heard" that one of the reasons (beyond taxes) that allows gasoline to be so inexpensive here in the States is because Europe consumes so much diesel.
    - As the demand for diesel fuel rises (as a percentage of fuel required for passenger cars) it stands to reason that the price of gasoline might actually drop.

    Please understand that I am no expert in this area and I'm just throwing the above factoids out there to generate some discussion.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    I have just filled up Volvo S6 D5, (here in U.K.) Converting for US Gallons and Dollars it works out to $8.35 per USG. Unleaded gasoling computes to $8.12. Of course, most of that is taxes of one kind or another.

    At that sort of delta diesel is an easy choice and helps explain why we Europeans are in love with diesels. On the other hand, the Dutch research might be valid and we're all mad ! :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Uhhh, what Dutch research? Any references?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    It is possible to "crack" the oil and make the molecules into other products. Heavier into lighter (fuel oil into gasoline). Fuel (diesel and gasoline) can be made out of coal too, at a cost of about $45 per barrel. While not profitable when crude oil is less than $50 per barrel, it should now be very profitable.

    The point is that a barrel of crude oil can be refined into almost any combination of useful products. In the winter more fuel oil (like diesel) is made. In the summer more gasoline is made. If the entire barrel were made into one product, it would be mostly synthetic (that is manufactured) rather than natural. Breaking down the heavier molecules into lighter ones is not too expensive but takes some energy.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Apologies - case of "I've seen it - ergo, so has everyone else". I have now given myself a good talking to. :blush:

    It's on another Edmunds Forum : "Diesels In The News". The actual post number is 5167.

    Hopefully my comment will make more sense once you've read that post.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Breaking down the heavier molecules into lighter ones is not too expensive but takes some energy."

    What about the reverse? I know that gasoline for instance is a light distillate that is extracted from crude oil by simply heating said oil up to ~150 C. Once the gasoline is distilled out, half of every barrel is already gone. The heat is then increased to about ~200 C and kerosene is distilled out; increase the heat again to ~300 C and you get diesel oil, and yet again to ~370 C and you get home heating oil. Increase the heat beyond the ~400 C mark, you're extracting lubricants, paraffin and asphalt.

    So, are you suggesting that if the chemistry set is fancy enough, diesel can be made out of gasoline?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Thanks, I'll take a look. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So you are saying the demand is a factor over the grade of fuel produced. As demand goes up in the states for diesel consumption, Shipo's point is well taken that the price for gas would follow a lower demand/price.

    I think another factor is the efficiency and demand of the truck diesels which are a large percentage of the US domestic commerce. If public transport demands more diesel, the price will rise. Simple.

    I know the economy is there in Europe but it remains to be seen how the US model for diesel plays out. Interesting to say the least.

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I know the economy is there in Europe but it remains to be seen how the US model for diesel plays out. Interesting to say the least."

    As I understand it though, the European market (a market that uses similar amounts of diesel and gasoline) needs the American market to continue consuming gasoline so that their diesel prices stay relatively stable. If it is in fact true that more than three gallons of gasoline are produced for every gallon of diesel, then if the world suddenly switched to diesel cars, there'd instantly be a HUGE glut of gasoline on the world markets. Yes, no? :confuse:

    FWIW, I've long been a strong advocate of diesel engined cars, however, if it does turn out to be true that the percentages of what comes out of a barrel of crude are relatively fixed, I may be driving a gasoline engined car for quite some time (at least until methodologies are put in place for the production of mass quantities of bio-diesel).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    As my buddy on Rowan & Martin used to say, Verrry Interesting. I was under the impression that the percentages among the four basic fuel groups could be skewed significantly, but perhaps not.

    If gasoline is the volatile byproduct of making the kerosine (Jet A) & diesel (heating oil) for which there are few substitutes. . .

    Maybe I'll be keeping my new gas motor longer than I thought, not that that's a bad thing.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    I've also noticed that the UK charges a bit more for diesel than gasoline, but that the better fuel mileage carries the day for the diesel. In Germany, last I was there, the diesel was noticeably less expensive. In Switzerland, not so much -- could have even been more, as in England.

    I still maintain that U.S. consumption of diesel fuel for cars isn't likely to drive price trends anytime soon, but that it certainly appears to be at the mercy of the rest of the world and the other fuel oil consumers in North America.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Unfortunately the light crude oils where you could distill gasoline out in large quantities are mostly gone and the heavy crude oils that perdominate today are mostly asphalt (oh, perhaps not that bad :P ), but anyway cracking the heavy oils into lighter ones is easy. Making heavier molecules out of lighter ones is more difficult I think, but the problem today is getting lighter molecules.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The seasonal variation in diesel prices has to do with home heating oil, which is basically the same thing as #2 diesel. Cars should use #1 diesel in winter, which is usually a bit higher priced than #2.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,706
    cracking the heavy oils into lighter ones is easy

    Not really. Some of that goes on, but not a lot. This is the root of a major problem, the increasing heavy oil fraction of today's production. We don't have an oil shortage, actually, we have a hydrogen shortage, for cracking the heavier oil fractions. And no, refineries are fine tuned to their input crudes, and can vary the mix very slightly once built. Can you build a refinery with significant flexibility? Yes, but that does little for the large number of existing set of refineries.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... We don't have an oil shortage, actually, we have a hydrogen shortage...

    We have a shortage of the most abundant element in the universe??? :surprise: :surprise:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,706
    Maybe better to call it a hydrogenation shortage, but usable hydrogen isn't abundant, either - it's all tied up in water, etc.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that you are misinformed. If what you say is true, then asphalt should be getting cheaper, but that is not the case. Here road projects are in some doubt as asphalt has gotten too expensive.

    However, I will agree that the refinery is tuned to output a certain mix of products based on the crude oil that is available. This tuning is adjusted from winter to summer to increase gasoline or heating oil (basically diesel).
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,706
    My source is a refinery engineer with 25 years experience. To quote:

    "The current U.S. refining industry has only limited capability to generate more diesel versus gasoline in the short term.

    In fact, I personally believe the diesel market in the U.S. will not take off like it did in Europe for two reasons:

    1) Europe's rapid dieselization was heavily subsidized by preferential tax policies vs. gasoline. This type of aggressive social engineering is not as likely to occur in the U.S.

    2) Europe's dieselization was essentially "costless" in terms of refining capital expenditures, as European refiners simply cranked up their excess refining capacity to make more diesel and gasoline, selling the excess gasoline to the U.S.

    In fact, the U.S. imports roughly 1 Million Barrels of gasoline and gasoline components from Europe every day.

    In other words, Europe's dieselization was done on the back of the U.S.'s continued consumption of (relatively cheap) gasoline.

    If the U.S. were to "dieselize" in any significant manner, it would require 10's of Billions of Dollars in refining capital expenditures for process units such as Hydrocrackers to shift the product mix from 2/3 gasoline ~ 1/3 diesel to half & half gasoline and diesel."

    All of this relates to your statement "The point is that a barrel of crude oil can be refined into almost any combination of useful products." Can the mix be modified? Yes. Is it easily varied to create "almost any combination of useful products"? I don't think so.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The key point being that I did in fact say "a combination of useful products", not a single product, such as all diesel or gasoline.

    The problem today, as reported on the Nightly Business Report, is that refineries are running at an abysmal 82% of capacity. I would hope that the reason for this is not to boost prices, but to switch over to making more summer fuels.
  • sjaievesjaieve Member Posts: 252
    Not sure if you guys have read the comparison on the C63AMG & the M3. Car & Driver has an M3 & ISF comparison as well. The results will shock you. NOT
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Shrug. MB makes boring cars with automatics.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Shrug. MB makes boring cars with automatics...............

    .................but not very well.

    Apologies, couldn't resist.

    A little taken aback in trying to consider either of those as "Entry Level" or "Luxury" in the case of the M3. However, they both tick the "Performance" box rather well.
  • donniemdonniem Member Posts: 4
    I bought the truck new and owe roughly $8k. About two years ago I got a promotion that requires me to travel to central and philly area. I live in Cape May Nj and I'm spending between $125-$150 per week for gas.

    One of the main reasons I purchased the truck was for my hobby of fishing ect...beach access and towing a small boat. With the new job and little one I dont have time for that anymore.

    With that being said I've been in love with the 3rd gen Acura TL's.

    My wife and I own three cars...98 VW beetle and 96 Vette. The VW was paid off years ago and she owes about the same as what I owe on the truck. The VW is her daily driver and the Vette just doesnt get used like it once was.

    One option I was considering was trading in my truck.

    I'm just looking for some advice on what, if anything I should do here.

    Thanks
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    If I were driving to that extent and it was highway travel I'd look at a new diesel; although I don't think many are available as of today...if you're looking to get into something immediately.

    A certified 2 year old MB C320 CDI would be nice...
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