Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

DTKWOK · July 2001

16/M/CA = age/sex/location, very popular in online gaming conversations.

DTKWOK
25/M/CA

4aodge · July 2001

If only the weight of these new vans was improved, I think their powerful engines would shine even more. Especially in the case of the Ody's 3.5L V6 and the T&C's 3.8L V6. While the 3.8L engine is not new, it certainly does feel that way when compared to the 3.3L V6 in my 00 T&C, as it is much smoother and quieter under hard excelleration.

Drew, under what conditions do you feel your 165hp 3.8L V6 "runs out of breath"?

The fastest I've ever taken our van was to 85 on the freeway but only for about two minutes. I was worried about cops and possibly getting a ticket, and my parents would not be to happy about that. Anyway, the van seems to be very comfortable at 80mph but as you near 85 it seems to be nearing the end of it's threshhold.

However, I have two friends who have take then their DC minivans slightly over 100mph on several occasions. One of these friends has a 96 Grand Caravan LE and the other has a 98 Grand Caravan SE, both with the 3.3L V6 engine. On optimal conditions I think the 3.3L could pull 110mph, but that might be pushing it.

What do the Ody owners have to say about the 3.5L VTEC engine in their vans? Any performance comments? Problems?

-Adam
00 T&C LX

DTKWOK · July 2001

I personally have taken my Ody to 95 mph (Vegas run), at which point it's running about 2500 rpm, seems to rev quite happy still (V-TEC kicking in I guess).

drew_ · July 2001

Adam, it runs out of breath when climbing up a grade at higher speeds (48-60mph). I have to literally floor it if I want to pick up more speed. More torque at higher rpms would be nice. However, what I usually do is pick up speed at the bottom of the hill and then maintain a steady speed, around 90 km/hr. No problems doing that.

I also find that the transmission ratios between 3rd and 4th gears also a bit far apart. When driving up to one particularly ski resort, I have to constanty switch between 3rd and 4th. It revs too high in 3rd gear, but starts bogging down in 4th gear. Eventually I just stopped using the van to go up to this ski hill :-) The new vans appear to be improved in this area.

I've taken the van up to 145 km/hr, but only for about 30 seconds and on a flat, smooth, and deserted road. However, at that speed, and in fact above 110-120 km/hr, the front end doesn't feel very stable. Almost as if it's starting to lift. No surprise there. Oh yes, and the wind noise is quite noticable at those speeds ;-). In contrast, the MB SUV that I also drive feels as planted at 145 km/hr on the same stretch of road that it does at 50 km/hr. Since I don't typically drive at such high speeds, I'm not too concerned about this.

DTKWOK, thanks I figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure :-)

Drew
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carleton1 · July 2001

No problems encountered with transmission of DC minivans owned by people who had proper, routine maintenance performed. (I asked each of them when the other one was not there while getting 30,000 mile service performed).
BTW, how does the gas mileage and performance with PT Cruiser compare with the T&C? I would suspect the mileage of PT Cruiser slightly higher with performance of T&C the winner. I would like to see a DC minivan with PT Cruiser styling from the front doors forward (enlarged to the same size as T&C/GC) AND with at least the 3.3L V6.

cgaydos · July 2001

"No problems encountered with transmission of DC minivans owned by people who had proper, routine maintenance performed."

Based on what evidence?

I babied our tranny in our '94. First, we got the towing package for the extra duty AT cooling, but never towed. Second, we made sure to always come to a complete stop before changing gears (our mechanic strongly urged this). Third, we changed the AT fluid every 15k miles, and yes with the correct fluid (our mechanic specializes in DC minivans and can give lectures on tranny care).

Result? Almost made it to 50k miles. Granted, this was over 7 years of predominantly short, 1 mile or less stop-and-go trips.

Based on incomplete evidence I've heard over the years, your likelihood of having a pre-98 DC minivan tranny fail is affected by the following factors:

* Luck. Some failed in the first year no matter what owners did.
* Driving severity. Lots of long trips on flat, uncrowded highways won't strain the tranny as much as soccer mom trips. When I hear of pre-98 DC minivans going 100k+ miles with the original AT I usually find they were predominantly highway miles. Too bad DC minivans are bought more by soccer moms than traveling salesmen.
* Driving like an adult. Don't strain the AT by, for example, switching from R to D before the minivan has stopped.
* AT maintenance every 15k miles with the correct fluid.
* Keeping tranny cool. Good: heavy duty cooler. Bad: Towing, especially uphill.

drew_ · July 2001

I'm starting to wonder if it's worth adding a tranny cooler at my next oil change, even though this van won't be with me for more than a year or two at most. Like you, the transmission in my van was babied with the Chrysler dealer doing all of the necessary maintenance, but yet at 35K kms, it started bucking occasionally after stop lights/signs and the torque converter failed eventually, a day before the scheduled appointment at the dealer. "Park" was the only thing that would work. Fortunately this was at a parking lot (it just refused to shift into drive or reverse) and the van was parked nose forward so towing was relatively easy. Dollies had to be fitted to the rear wheels because of the AWD.

Since I live on a mountain, I do drive up and down at least once a day, and my commute is also mostly through city traffic, though I try to time the lights so that I don't have to stop and go as much.

I'm curious if you had the tranny cooler fitted to your '01 Grand Caravan?

Drew
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cgaydos · July 2001

I can't say how much difference the tranny cooler makes, so can't say with authority whether you should add it to yours. You didn't say how many km's you have currently, and when the tranny was last repaired. IMHO, if the last repair was fairly recent I'd add a cooler, if only because of the mountain trips.

As I recall you have a '94 GC SE? Did it come with the "O/D off" option? Do you use that up and downhill? According to my '94 manual, using O/D off when on hills will increase the life of the AT.

And, yes, I made sure my '01 had all the HD options. The price was very small given the benefit.

drew_ · July 2001

Currently with just under 96,500 kms on the odometer and I'm still on my first tranny (knock on wood) :-)

It's actually an almost fully loaded '94 Grand Voyager LE AWD with everything but leather and the towing package, so it does have the O/D off switch, which I use quite frequently up and down hills. I usually shift into 3rd manually when necessary anyway.

BTW, how did you like the digital dash on the '94 T&C?

Drew
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carleton1 · July 2001

Both service writers said they had some DC minivans that needed transmission repair...but when the owner was asked when the transmission was serviced, the response was "What service" Does the Transmission need to be serviced"?
NOT one of the dozens of DC minivans (owned by people I know)has had transmission failure. Read of the many Odyssey transmission failures reported in Edmund's Town Hall. Okay. Do not believe the Odyssey owners who post in the Town Hall. Call it anecdotal or whatever, but for me, the 1999 GC SE represented a far greater value than the Honda Odyssey AND my 1999 GC SE has had ZERO problems in 30,650 miles. How many Honda Odysseys have a better reliability than ZERO problems?

cgaydos · July 2001

I liked it a lot, and actually miss it. It was more precise ... I could set the cruise at 74 mph exactly very easily. It was a piece of cake to swap back and forth between miles and kilometers, instead of trying to read those tiny km numbers on the regular dash. It had more gauges. The fuel gauge changed from E-to-F to E-to-1/4 when the gas got low, allowing for a more precise reading of how much gas was left.

Still, I think it was only available on the '94 and '95 T & Cs, as I recall. And prior to '96, the T & C was produced in very small numbers. And I've heard that problems with it were common, although I never had any.

calg · July 2001

of odyssey owners with great reliability. We have had our 2001 Odyssey EX for almost a year and have put 19,000 trouble-free miles on it... only into the dealer for scheduled maintenance, AND we paid UNDER MSRP, imagine that!

4aodge · July 2001

Hey drew, do you think you will ever consider buying a 2002+ model year DC minivan? Since Chrysler is still the only company that makes minivans with an AWD system, if you want another van....a DC vehicle would be the logical choice. I hear Chrysler has updated the AWD system for its 2001 and 2002 models and has made it lighter and more efficient.

I wouldn't buy a 2001 model DC van, but I would certainly would want a 2002 AWD van from Chrysler. A Grand Caravan ES AWD with the 3.8L V6 would be really nice. I'd like to see the look on wanna-be-macho SUV owner's faces when they look at my new van and I tell them it has AWD and heavy-duty suspension:)

-Adam

odd1 · July 2001

I'm glad to see you believe in people. Did you really think the Chrysler mechanics were going to tell you that the transmissions have been a problem for years? The proper maintaince line by Chrysler is a great way to avoid admitting fault. It has been the company line for years. You are a military man. You should know that it's rare that anyone admits fault. They just state the policy that they higher ups tell them to. Do you think people that own the other makes without troubles are ALL doing the proper maintaince? Also, why is it that so many people have gotten assisantance from Chrysler for payment of transmission problems out of warantee? Could it be Chrysler knows it is more than improper maintance?

Does this remind any one of we can't duplicate the results of the failed part that the IIHS found TWICE? With, it causing a fuel leak once.

When your van's tranny makes it past 80,000 then you can have something to crow about.

cho7819 · July 2001

Go to www.dodge-caravan.com . It clearly states that the fault is not in driver abuse but rather in a design flaw in the transmission that Chrysler has neglected to fix over the years.

DTKWOK · July 2001

Actually,

I believe GM/Chevy still makes the AWD Safari/Astro van, that thing has towing capabilities (5500 lbs, I think.)

odd1 · July 2001

Never say never. Who knew 15 years ago that D/C could sell that many? It will be another 15 years before we'll know if another manufacturer can do that. In which case it will be all the more impressive because there won't be years of sales with no real compition. Twenty years ago I doubt anyone thought the top two selling cars(Not vehicles. I know that trucks are the top sellers.) in America would be Japanese makes. How many years have they been one and two since?

Don't forget that that number is a lot of customers that won't buy another without improvements in reliability due to the problems they have had in ownership of a DC and the need for safety improvements. I count myself as one.

You seem to forget that if Honda had the manufacturing capabilities to keep up with demand; you would be driving an Odyssey right now. It was your first choice wasn't it?

As for 99 odyssey problems, Honda has addressed its transmission issues within two years. They are not the maker that has spent over a decade blaming driver maintaince for their tranny problems. Chrysler has known about these problems for years but didn't do anything about until they had tough compition. It will be a while until we know if the 99 have a forty percent failure rate that has widely been reported for D/C transmissions for some model years. I personally doubt it. Once, again you are using an extremely small sample, posters on the boards here, to "prove" your beliefs. Give me hard facts and the stats to back them up.

Carlton you continue to attack the Odyssey without ever having an answer to any of the Chrysler issues that anyone brings up. If Chrysler was never able to reproduce the part failure that caused the fuel leak in the IIHS test and they feel it is safe. Then, why did they redesign the part for every vehicle made after they received the results?

xxsn0blindxx · July 2001

Nice to know my old school DC van from '91 can still kick some honda [non-permissible content removed]. The oddysey has just been added to my honda slaughter list, along with the civic, accord, cr-v and crx. Heading north on hwy 45 in WI with an oddysey behind me and an accord in front of me, we were all going about 90. Well this lamer in the oddysey kept trying to get ahead of me when a slower car was coming up and each time I'd just punch it and stay in front of him and he'd back off. After about 5 times of this the weener figured he could outrun me, but needless to say I left him in my dust. By this time I was pretty tired of him, so I took it up to about 120, I watched in my rearview as he eventually caught up and slowed down, but he didn't try passing me after that. He must have felt silly, his 3.5 liters to my 3.0, his dual overhead cams to my single overhead cams, my '91 Plymouth to his '00 Oddysey! Oh and did I mention I have 139,xxx miles, no rebuild only a tranny rebuild at 118k? I'll be honest, mine's not stock, but that honda owner must have felt silly.

Joe Ng '91 Plymouth Voyager (honDUH eater)

stever · July 2001

ummmm, I think you are looking for the Where are the high performance minivans? discussion.

Steve
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4aodge · July 2001

odd1, even if honda could produce enough vehicles to keep up with demand i doubt they would outsell dc minivans. out of the millions of people that have purchased dc minivans, most are satsified and return for a a new chrysler minivan, if they are still interested in buying that type of car. chrysler has the strongest brand loyalty when it comes to minivans than any other company, including honda.

i doubt people who are on their 3rd, 4th, and even 5th dc minivan are going to jump ship just to get a honda with a dissapearing third row seat. our old 1994 mitsubishi expo had a seat that folded into the floor and we did not miss that feature when we got our 1998 grand caravan se with the roll-out seats. its really too bad a "magic seat" is now the benchmark that determines the worthiness of a minivan.

in fact, dc has not gone 10 years without doing anything about their transmissions. they have upgraded and modified the 41TE transmission as time as moved on and it became more clear that there was a problem. the transmission failure rates have declined over the last few years, which shows improvment. also, dc minivans are not the only chryslers that use the 41TE transmission. many other new chrysler products use this transmission and are flawless when it comes to trany problems.

out of all the 2001 dc minivans that are on the road, some are bound to get into accidents. some of which are very serious, similar to the insurance company's test. have there ever been reports of a crashed dc minivan leaking fuel and exploding? i havent heard of any. chrysler tests their vehicles in a different and more realistic way than the insurance companies do. sorry oddy owners, dc minivans in fact do not blow up spontaneously as you would like to believe.

why did chrysler redesign the fuel part in the 2002 vans? thats a rather simple question. why go through the same media-enduced panic over a part that is called "faulty" a second year in a row? car companies always make their parts stronger and harder to break, chrysler is doing the same. its also interesting this is the same insurance company that seems to have a habbit of giving the most popular cars bad crash tests. a perfect example is the best selling vehicle in america, the ford f-150. ford is probably one of the safest car companies out there in terms of their new car designs. people like to give sales leaders a hard time in order to shift the balance of power.

this "fuel problem" is of no concern to me until i hear of a real accident where fuel was leaking from a dodge caravan or town and country, which has not occured yet and probably never will. until then, im not going to run around calling dc minivans "firebombs" just so i can make myself feel better about buying a honda, as some others are doing in this thread.

-adam

tomtomtom · July 2001

Well you just gave us another reason to stay out of WI and Honda owners will claim all DC owners drive like an a*****e...thanks a lot!!

DTKWOK · July 2001

that putting a lot of money and mods into any vehicle will give you some performance. Hope you were alone in the van at the time (can't stand people who: (1) race on public roads and (2) race wih passengers on board). Just don't get into an accident in your old school van, okay?

BTW, I'm sure that the driver in Ody figured out you weren't stock and also, the 3.5 is only single head cam, not DOHC.

carleton1 · July 2001

And here is the E-Mail of my sister telling of her daughter and son-in-law's T&C transmission failure recently (Name of town deleted for security reasons):
"They have driven over 150,000 miles. They have needed it to pull their trailor, so I'm sure that put extra stress on the transmission. With your loving care, I'm sure your Caravan will prove dependable as ours. It will cost around $1500. They had it towed to ????(free towing as Chrysler is fixing transmission)."
FYI my sister's 86 Caravan they got USED had 170,000 when they sold it. It is still providing outstanding service for 3rd owners. The T&C with transmission failure was purchased USED.
As with almost all owners of DC minivans, they love it so much they will KEEP it.

DTKWOK · July 2001

Carleton1,

Is the transmission the 3 or 4 speed auto? No, I am not challenging your claim, just curious. BTW, how long do you intend to keep yours? If almost all DC owners keep their vans, then how come there is such a huge used market for these things? (By most, it infers greater than 50%, right?) Am I missing something here?

carleton1 · July 2001

The T&C is either an LXi or Limited and has the 3.8L V6 with 4 speed and tan leather interior and is a model between 1996 and 2000. I have seen it but do not know the year.
Apparently some members of the Town Hall can not believe that so many people (that I know personally)can have excellent experience with a DC minivan while NONE have had reliability problems. I can understand as I had BAD experiences with 5 Volkswagens....2 purchased NEW and 3 purchased as Used. I also had an ugly experience with the NEW Volvo I purchased and so did a co-worker with a NEW Volvo.
Most people who buy NEW DC minivans keep them for a long time. The ones who get problems usually bought one that had been abused as a fleet, rental, etc. where the driver did not own it. Since DC minivans are THE minivan of choice for Fleet, Rental, etc. there are obvious many of these that are sold when about 1 year old with 30,000 miles.
I would like to rent an Odyssey or Sienna to be able to drive it enough to see how they drive in the real world experience. Do you know where I can rent one?

DTKWOK · July 2001

I have a friend who has an old Dodge van (pre-Daimler) who claims to have over 200,000 miles on it, I believe it was a 4 banger turbo with a manual transmission? I haven't personally seen it myself, but am willing to keep an open mind about it. The fact is, I know of more people that have had serious tranny problems than success stories, people including friends, friends of relatives, co-workers, and especially independent mechanics - they're the ones who deal with these things day in, day out. IF DC can prove excellent reliability (say for a total of 10-15 years) then I'll consider one, but before that, I'll take my good Honda experiences with me.

carleton1 · July 2001

We got it March 20, 1999 as the GG Ody LX-C we ordered March 16 would take 5 months to be delivered. I had planned to trade it in on a 2001 or 2002 Odyssey...or if it had no problems, sell it to one of our daughters.
We have looked very closely at all minivans at the Annual Auto Show each January with special attention to Odyssey, Sienna, and DC minivans. GM FWD appear cheap with less comfortable seats. The Windstar is difficult to access rear seat and seems to have less legroom in 2nd and 3rd rows. The Quest, Villager and MPV seem much smaller. We have not yet seen a new Kia Sedona.
Now that we have driven it 30,710 miles since March 20, 1999 my wife likes our 99 GC SE better than the Odyssey, Sienna or 2001 DC minivans. For her, the Ody glove box intrudes into her legs as a front seat passenger. She does not want to take a chance on getting ANY new minivan and parting with our zero problem 99 GC as there is a remote chance of getting a vehicle with problems with any brand.
I have purchased some excellent vehicles (63 Impala, 67 Impala, 80 Impala, 87 Chevy R-10, 91 Astro CL and now 99 GC SE)and some bad new ones (71 Vega, 71 VW Super Beetle, 72 Volvo and 80 Chevy Citation) plus some bad used ones (65 VW Pickup in Germany,71 VW Bus, 77 VW Bus) and some that were average: 65 Buick Special DeLuxe, 76 Chevy Nova, 78 Impala wagon, 81 Chevy C-10 pickup...all NEW plus a used 50 Chevy sedan and 65 Olds Delta 88.
Summary for all vehicles:
(NEW)
6 Excellent for 32 %
4 Bad for 21%
4 Average for 21%
(Used)
2 Average for 11%
3 Bad for 16%
(Rounding off accounts for the wrong total of 101%)

mebcoder · July 2001

I am currently working on the choice between Odyssey and Town & Country.
I have '96 LXI with 97K; just replaced transmission, head and A/C is apparently next. Not particularly pleased with that rapid trio of repairs!
The Odyssey has power at a higher range of PM (slower starts), interior noise, mediocre interior, 2 disc/2 drum brakes. However, it seems to be holding $$ value.
The DC vans have better ride, smoother power, better accommodations, more features; but don't hold $$ value as well.
My choice is now whether I buy a vehicle that is comfortable and more user friendly or a rather plain mini van for economic future reasons.

dave210 · July 2001

It's a toss up. I myself have owned three Chrysler vans and the 2001 is far better built than the 1996. Granted, I was lucky that after 48,000 miles, my 1996 LXi was perfect other than the phantom windshield wipers and phantom door locks it had, which were fixed.

But the 2001 truly does seem to be more upscale and solid than the 1996. About the resale....well it's crap. There's no getting around it. It's up to you, because the 2002 Odyssey with factory leather and navigation will be around $30,000. Now for that kind of money, you could also get a new 2002 T&C Limited or get a T&C LXi for less than or equal to the $30,000. The MSRP may be $36,000 on a Limited, but I only paid around $30,000 on mine.

So getting a good price on a Chrysler van is not a problem. The resale is more the problem, but I guess that is more up to the individual about whether or not they want to save 4-5 grand in the long run based on resale, but then forgo the luxury they've become accustomed to in a Chrysler.

On the plus side, if you've been truly burned by Chrysler, than the Odyssey may bring you more peace of mind knowing it has a better history than the Chrysler. But again, the 2001 and on Chrysler vans are truly more refined than the 1996-2000 vans.

2002 Honda Odyssey EX main features

- leather interior
- navigation system
- power driver's seat
- digital automatic climate control
- foldaway third seat
- second row buckets/bench
- fold away tray table
- power doors
- homelink garage opener

2002 Town & Country Limited main features

- leather/sued interior
- dual heated power seats
- memory for driver's seat, mirrors, radio presets, and pedals
- triple zone digital automatic climate control
- tip forward buckets to third row
- power/manual doors
- power liftgate
- 4 disc CD changer
- automatic rearview and driver's side mirror
- trip computer
- compass/temperature readout
- homelink garage opener
- power adjustable pedals
- power removable center console

tomtomtom · August 2001

It really depends on what you want now. It's hard to know what would happen 4-5 years from now. I really don't concern much about resale value. Let say you paid $30,000 for a new Honda or a DC today. After 5 years, even the Honda's resale value is $5000 (unlikely) higher than the DC, you are paying about $2.74 more per day. That's about the cost of a cup of Starbucks. Well some people here might tell you to add the cost of replacing the tranny or other stuff if you own a DC vans but do they really know that would happen? The new Honda might give you the leather but would they use the same uncomfortable padding (MY OPINION) as the current cloth seats? Or will it still be a bit noisy than the current DC vans? You definitely will get the "magic seat" only from Honda if this is what you need and I am not sure if the new Honda gives you the power liftgate. Again, this is your money and we are not driving or riding your van.

tlf4flf · August 2001

Just wanted to update you on our GC LE that had 243,000 miles at the beginning of June. We now have 254,000 miles on the minivan. Contrary to some guesses, I am not a salesman. I am a country lawyer with four kids, one in college and two in high school. The van has hauled dorm stuff, building supplies (we have a 100 year old house), bicycles and tons of teenagers to every possible sporting event, concert and school function. Our LE has virtually every option that you could get in 1996. The little stuff is starting to fail, but the body is in great shape, the tranny is still working like a trooper, and the engine is only using a quart between oil changes.
My secret? We let the engine warm up briefly and start the first trip of the day slowly. I do drive fast (5 speeding tickets in 3 years) but I don't stomp on the accelerator unless I have too. We also change oil in both the engine & tranny religiously. We have a great Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealer in our little town in Iowa.
We are starting to look at 2002 Town & Country Ltd.s as our next vehicle, now that the kids are more "mature." Depending on cash flow, we'll probably replace the 96 LE in Dec./Jan. The eldest wants the 96 for college. She claims it'll be a great car pool vehicle for weekend visits from college. If she takes it to college, it may even get to set still for a day or two. We'll see . . .
My family recognizes that Honda makes a good product, but in Iowa we like to buy American, and why would we switch brands when the last two minivans we bought racked up over 250,000 miles? Oh, by the way Honda followers, a disappearing seat does not mean that you have evolved from a higher order of primates, soooo be nice when discussing the relative merits of the minivans.

carleton1 · August 2001

This is as honest and fair as possible:
I drove my sister's 2001 Ody EX that had 3677 miles on odometer today (228.4 on trip meter). It read 3712 (263.3 trip)at the end. Our 99 GC SE read 30809 (trip 226.8) at beginning and 30843 (trip 260.8)at end. Either the Ody gas gauge is way off or our GC gets much better mileage as the Ody fuel gage read 1/3 of way between Empty and 1/2. Our GC gage read 1/3 way between half and Full.....
The Ody odometer registered 34.9 miles while exactly same drive GC registered 34.0 miles. Now for the comparison:
Ody 3.5L has slight edge 65-75 MPH acceleration while GC SE 3.3L has slight edge starting to 30 MPH. Equally quiet. Equally smooth ride. Ody auto climate control worked VERY WELL...our manual control cooled just as efficiently. Ody front fan has about 12 speeds while ours has 5. I could not detect noise from Magic Seat well nor did the stereo sound very badly.
Our GC had more engine noise under acceleration than did Ody. Ody seats more comfortable for me than our GC SE but the 2001 GC SE and Sport and all Voyagers are also better than our 99. I liked horizontal crease in Ody seats as my back felt less sticky than with our seats. Temperature was 97 F when I drove Ody and 101 F when I drove GC.
At MSRP the Ody is the best buy. At actual prices paid it is difficult to choose. Depreciation is moot to us as we keep a very long time or give to a daughter. Reliability is moot also as our 99 GC SE has had zero problems.

cincy_ody_mike · August 2001

But what about the all-important padded vs. non-padded armrest comparison???? ;-)

odd1 · August 2001

What am I supposed to write about now? You can't do this to me. I'll have to go find some die hard GM fan, on the what's wrong with GM thread, to pimp now.

Cincy mike-LOL

odd1 · August 2001

Twenty years ago you could have gotten petty much the same statement regarding customer loyalty from the Detriot big three. Never say never about anything.

I didn't mean that they didn't change anything on the transmission for over a decade but, that it took them that long to accomplish any significant reduction in tranny problems.

odd1 · August 2001

Weren't you trying to post your story on the dumbest thing I've done in a car thread on the news and views board?

For the safety of the rest of us. Please tell us when you are on the road since, you clearly feel you own the whole thing.

mikehaney · August 2001

I have to admit, that report was much more balanced than I expected. Kudos.

You are correct in observing the fuel gauge problem. Obviously, there is not that huge a difference in the gas mileage. We have had our Odyssey for 3 weeks now and have noticed the same thing. When the gauge gets all the way on empty, my wife fills up the van and only puts 14-15 gallons in it. It has a 20 gallon tank.

I saw on another board that Honda's official explanation for this is that because of the magic seat, the fuel tank is very shallow, which makes it difficult to accurately measure the fuel level.

Actually, it works out fine for us. I have been trying to condition my wife for years to fill up at 3/4 of a tank, instead of running it to empty. I think it's better for the engine to not be using the gas from the bottom of the tank, where all the dirt accumulates. Anyway, it never took, but now she fills up at 3/4 of a tank anyway, even when she thinks it's on empty.

tomtomtom · August 2001

Very good. Now all we need is a test drive report from Hotspur.

drew_ · August 2001

For those of you who haven't seen it yet:

Click here for the specs.

Drew
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tomtomtom · August 2001

Very attractive package. How about some pictures on upgrade/modified exterior (I hope it isn't as boxy as the current one)

odd1 · August 2001

People on their fourth or fifth mini-van are pretty much done with the "mini-van years." Unless, of course they are trading them in in less then two years. I know some people will kept driving vans but many will go away from the kid limo market. 10-15 years down the line if they are fortunate enough to be around grand kids then they will look at vans again.

It is those who are on their first or second van that will determine which makes will have the brightest future.

4aodge · August 2001

I agree that it is those who are on their first or second minivan that will determine which makes will have the brightest future. However, there is a good size group of people who have been owning DC minivans since the early 80s and 90s who love them and are very loyal to the Chrysler brand for that reason. Some have driven their DC minivans well over 150k miles and trust their vans like they would no other, including Honda. The brand-loyalty factor, at least when it comes to minivans, will always play in Chrysler's favor simple because they have been around making these cars for so much longer than anyone else.

-Adam

odd1 · August 2001

You missed the point. Many of those that have had vans that long will revert to cars once they no longer need a kiddy limo. It is new parents in their twenties and thirties who are the future market for mini-vans and they have not formed any brand loyalty for the most part. Detriot had those same words about customer loyalty twenty years ago and look what happened.

You also forget many others including myself have no loyalty to D/C vans due to their many problems and transmission eating habits that we have too much experience with.

It comes down to the old adage about building the better mouse trap. I look forward to great compition in this market trying to get my money.

carleton1 · August 2001

REASON: Comfort. We prefer the higher seating position of driver and front passenger. We got a used VW Bus in 1977 but it had too little power with no heating, a/c, etc. and needed too many costly repairs. We tried a used 1977 Bus in January 1979 but it too needed too many costly repairs and the selling VW dealer would not honor the written 30 day / 1000 mile warranty. Traded it in on a 1980 Impala 4 door sedan in October, 1979.
We got our first pickup(NEW 1981 Chevy C-10 for my drive to work vehicle) and have not purchased a sedan since. Gave it to oldest daughter when we got a new 1987 Chevy R-10. Recently gave 1987 R-10 to youngest daughter. Got a 91 Chevy Astro and gve 80 Impala to our youngest daughter. Traded Astro in on a 99 GC SE. I did NOT like the GC for 8 months or more as I preferred the panel doors of Astro, the larger 27 gal fuel tank, higher seating of Astro.
However, my wife's positive feeling toward the GC was greater than my dislike. As the GC has had zero problems and we have driven it more, I find I like it more and more all the time and now overall I prefer the GC to the Astro. The separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger was not missed until we got it in our 99 GC SE. Overhead console with compass/outside temp/Trip Computer is NOT a necessity but now that we have had it, we would really miss it.
I did not miss power steering until we got it on a 1965 Buick. Nor did we miss air conditioning in a vehicle until we got it in 1969 as an add on to our 67 Impala while living in Oklahoma. For me, the Odyssey seats are more comfortable than the seats in our 99 GC. When the weather is hot, the horizontal creases in Odyssey seats keep my back from getting sweaty better than do the seats of any other vehicle.

4aodge · August 2001

No odd1, it is you who have missed MY point. I understand what your saying about new parents in their twenties and thirties who will be the future market for minivans. However, there are many people who have been owning and loving DC minvans for much longer, since the 1980s when they were first introduced.

A good number of these people will continue to come back again and again to Chrysler if and when they want another minivan. Not all people give up vans as soon as all their kids are in college and people with famlies are not the only ones to buy minivans.

Many long-time DC minivan owners will not be marching over to their local Honda dealerships to buy an Ody just because of a "magic seat" and supposedly good long-term reliability. It's going to take a bit more than that to lure someone away from a vehicle type they have been driving for almost two decades, in some cases.

For example, one of my best friends traded in his 1988 Plymouth Grand Voyager in 1998 for a Town & Country LXi. Their first Voyager gave them a "fair-share" number of problems but their new T&C (61k miles) has not suffered from any major problems. When I asked them if they had thought about buying anything else, she said she had sat in the 99 Windstar and the 99 Ody and replied, "neither could even compare in terms of comfort and design." As I said, it's going to take a little more than a "magic seat" to lure away loyal, long-time DC minivan owners from Chrysler who have had great experiences with their vehicles.

Oh well, only time will tell what company will get the last laugh when it comes to dominance of the minivan market. While I think it's pretty safe to say that no one can remain on top forever, but DC just might do it. They have a great looking, versatile, powerful, safe, and relitively cheap vehicle that has attracted people to it for the last 2 decades. It should be interesting to see what happens in the next few years.

-Adam

carleton1 · August 2001

A neighbor Kurt J. got a NEW 2000 GC LE after being completely satisfied with a 96 GV SE w/3.3L that he traded at about 80,000 miles. He traded in an 88 Caravan w/3.0 L when it had about 80,000 miles. Had valve seat problems with Mitsubishi 3.0 L engine in Caravan but otherwise no problems with any of his 3 DC minivans.
Our daughter's friend Julie got a used 96 T&C LXi she loved. Started having a few problems with airconditioning so they shopped around. They could not find another minivan they liked as well as T&C, so they traded 96 in on a 99 T&C Limited.
Our local Dodge dealer has provided supurb routine maintenance. We had purchased mostly Chevrolet vehicles and had been completely satisfied. However, in early 1999 my wife did not like climbing up into an Astro and the Venture seemed primitive and crude compared to DC minivans, Odyssey, and Windstar. We are looking at all minivans and it will be difficult to select one as DC, Odyssey, and Sienna each has distinct advantages.

odd1 · August 2001

I'm not talking about those that love their D/C. I'm talking about those of us that feel burned by D/C. I never said "all" van drivers will revert to cars once they no longer need a kid taxi. I said many. I would suspect that over half will not get vans once they are past "the mini-van years."

My personal feeling is that D/C hasn't had any real compition until the last 3 or 4 years. It takes people a while to look at other options when buying new vehicles. Like I've said I look forward to the compition. D/C has improved already from it and when D/C has longer improved reliability record I will consider one again.

I agree that the disappearing seat is overrated unless you need to haul alot of large items. On the other hand it is nice not to have the third seat taking the parking spot up in the garage when you do need the space for hauling. I don't miss wrestling with seat the very few times I've needed the cargo space.

pat84 · August 2001

Grand Caravan Sport last week. I was impressed.
After owning a 96 DC which I traded in on a 99 ODY EX, I would like to add a few comments.
The 01 is a vast improvement over my 96. The headlights are at least as good as the Honda on low beam. A little better on bright.
The fit and finish were noticable improvements over the 96. It rode well, handled well and, in general, I was impressed at how much an improvement was over my 96.
Since it was a rental, it did not have a premium sound system. The radio "seek" button could never lock on a station. That I attributed to rental abuse.
I did prefer the DC handling to the ODY.
The DC had the 3.3 engine. As far as acceleration it was much slower than my ODY.
I had to allow more space pulling out from a stop to merging with moving traffic.
The seats were at least as comfortable as my ODY.
The actual differences between the 01 DC and my ODY were so small that I was surprised. That is probably because I was comparing my ODY to a 96 not an 01.
Now the infinity sound system in my 96 was a 10 compared to Honda's 6.
I believe either choice is a good one.

ukrick · August 2001

Got this from the Honda News web site.

http://www.hondanews.com

NEW FEATURES SUMMARY FOR 2002 MODEL

*Class leading 240 Horsepower 3.5-liter V-6 (regular unleaded fuel)

*First minivan with standard 5-speed automatic transmission

*First minivan with standard front and side air bags

*First minivan with available factory-installed DVD entertainment system

*Standard four wheel disc brakes (rear disc brakes added)

*Improved Noise Vibration Harshness (NVH) dampening

*Improved ride with same sedan-like handling

*Available leather trimmed interior (EX)

*Enhanced interior utility

*Freshened exterior styling

*New Colors (Redrock Pearl, Evergreen Pearl, Havasu Blue Pearl)

No information about pricing yet that I could see.

4aodge · August 2001

The 2002 Ody has some very nice features that are now standard on all models, including the LX. This improvement should really increase the level of competition even more in the minivan market. However, being the sceptic that I am, some of the "firsts" mentioned above for the 2002 Ody don't seem correct.

The 240hp 3.5L V6 is certainly the most powerful engine currently offered in any minivan. However, some sources point out that Chrysler will put the 300m 253hp 3.5 V6 engine in some of their 2002 model vans (Town & Country, Grand Caravan). I suppose we will have to wait and see.

First minivan with the 5-speed automatic transmission? I think I remember someone saying here one the board that the new Kia Sedona also has a 5-speed automatic transmission. I've already seen one or two of these vans on the road.

In addition, for 2002 Chrysler is also offering a DVD video system that is available when you purchase the car. The DVD video system is not made from a third-party company but through Chrysler's OWN parts company, MOPAR. There has been a 2001 Town & Country in the showroom of the local Chrysler dealership with a MOPAR DVD system for the last few months.

Anway, I'm not trying to knock the Ody or Honda on this one. Afterall, no other minivan offered both standard front and side airbags for front seat passengers. That is an excellent safety feature that is to be appreciated. However, it seems to me that some of their "firsts" are not really "firsts" for Honda at all. Considering, other 2002 model vans will be offering the same features ( possibly engine, transmission, built in dvd system).

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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