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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited June 2010
    If you look at the tread of a typical AT tire, it's nearly identical to most non-directional all-season car tires. As such, it's worthless in snow and mud and really should be considered the truck equivalent of a street - only tire. Now, for a lot of people, it works fine enough. They see a tiny bit of dirt and some gravel roads every so often. And for their soft-roader SUVs, life is good.

    But for snow, you absolutely need mud terrain tires as a minimum. And 4x4 engaged. Also, look for a tread pattern that has lots of sipes in it. The older BFG mud terrains were very bad in rain for this reason(zero sipes anywhere), though good otherwise.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    So you're happy with your TL SH AWD? Is yours stick or automatic?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    one in 6k Tl's come in STICK- Very Rare
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    edited July 2010
    Thanks for the link to 2011 Volvo S60 T6 AWD. I read it the first time you posted.

    The new S60 looks promising. I think its T6 engine power output -- 300 horsepower and 325 pound-feet of torque -- is among the top of this group, especially the torque. IMO, Volvo did a fine job in both exterior styling and interior layout. As to handling, we will have to wait until the car hits the showroom and do a proper test drive.

    While this car may be a legitimate contender, the biggest problem for Volvo may be the lack of convincing reason for potential buyers to choose it over the competition. For performance, the 3-series and G37 still lead the pack. For luxurious feels, TL and A4 may have the edge. For dependability reputation, the Japanese brands are always safer bets. For badge shoppers, MB certainly sounds more prestigious. Safety is Volvo's strong suite, but others are not far behind. A Volvo is just so easy to lost in this crowded segment. And its new Chinese ownership doesn't help, either.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    jtla - yeah that past post is now gone- as is the one above your post- have to play by mr. edmunds rules or else. I agree with you the T6 pretty interesting with all the torque and have to agree its a tough sell in this market giving volvos past efforts in the space and the competitors-- but i do like the fact that they are doing something which intern will make the group better.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2010-acura-tl-sh-awd/#more-360428

    here is an article reviewing the acura TL -- maybe we need to expand this chat to include buick and nissan maxima.. they are mentioned as comps to this rig..
  • xeyexeye Member Posts: 168
    When did this web site become a marketing database?

    HOST,

    If this continues, I will submit my "resignation". Why the hell does anyone need to know my household income to offer opinions on BMWs?

    :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
  • dialogue_deandialogue_dean Member Posts: 1
    I apologize if pissed anyone off. That is certainly not my intent. I'm definitely not trying to rock the boat. But as you know qualitative researchers want to talk to people in-depth about particular subjects. In order to dive deep on a subject, we need to restrict the number of people - it's just a numbers thing. We can't hear from everyone and get good, quality information and analyze it if we're hearing from hundreds and hundreds of people. So, we filter people based on basic demographic information. I clearly stated in my invite "to see if you qualify, click here" I'm really sorry if it my qualifying survey rubbed you the wrong way. It's not my intent.
  • kfdmedkfdmed Member Posts: 130
    edited July 2010
    Before buying a Maxima. I was purchasing not leasing so that ruled out BMW, Mercedes and the Audi (out of my price range anyway). Lexus does nothing for me. I wanted all-wheel drive for the Cadillac and Infiniti so they were priced out of reach.
    I didn't much care for the Lacrosse. Came down to the TL and Maxima. I liked them pretty much equally. The fact that the Maxima could be had for about 2k less than the TL, had more features, and that I liked the interior/exterior styling better than the TL sold me.
    I think the Maxima should be included here.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    Sorry, but as much as I like the Maxima, it does not belong to this discussion. First and foremost, Nissan is not considered a luxury brand. Secondly, Maxima comes in FWD drivetrain with CVT transmission -- not a performance/sport sedan in my book.
  • kfdmedkfdmed Member Posts: 130
    TL has a five speed. The Maxima with the CVT will perform as well if not better than most the cars listed on the right. True it is not a "luxury" brand so I guess it doesnt belong.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    While the Nissan CVT is about as good as it gets from a CVT type of transmission, "Performance" and "CVT" are mutually exclusive terms for many folks, myself included.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    The Lexus IS is RWD. You are correct on TL and TSX being FWD, but TL does offer SH-AWD (not on TSX) to enhance handling.
  • kevinc5kevinc5 Member Posts: 204
    What he said.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    how many tls are sold in awd form?? i would conclude the TL is more Maxima then G or BMW -- its FWD- -it has 280 hp --it comes only in auto and only comes in 4 doors.. here is a link for those who are going to stay it comes in manual-really.

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_coul- d_get_with_a_stick/index.html
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Well, none of these cars are "sports cars." The question is how much sport do you want. I don't think FWD is a huge disadvantage in this category - 99% of people shopping this segment won't be able to tell the difference.

    The FWD TL may be less sporty than a RWD G37, but it is definitely sportier than a Maxima.

    I personally agree that the CVT completely eliminates any hope for the Maxima being included in this category. It's seems more like a sportier Toyota Avalon to me...
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited July 2010
    Excellent topic to say the least, considering I have a 3G FWD TL, a FWD Maxima, the new one, and a RWD Infiniti I think I can add some decent insight on this. I can tell you this, the CVT does take a little away from making the Maxima a true sports sedan, like a G37 or 3-Series, but that is only b/c of the noise during acceleration and lack of shift shock. The Maxima is just as sporty as the 4G FWD TL, but FWD in itself does have limitations that RWD obviously and my 3G TL has a more sporty flair to it then the 7G Maxima.

    The new Maxima has virtually no torque steer during brisk acceleration and I've been able to keep up with higher powered V6's with both A/T and MT so the power and performance of the Maxima is not hindered by the CVT in the least.

    Saying the Maxima is a sportier version of an Avalon is a little bit ridiculous to me. Drive both cars back to back and they are totally different. The Maxima's handling is much more crisp and precise then just about anything else in the FWD market, except for say Mazda maybe. I would go as far as to say, that the Maxima is about as sporty as you can go in performance, driving dynamics, handling, etc for a FWD sedan without having to spend more money and go into a RWD luxury division vehicle. It is a four door sports sedan, no, the CVT and FWD layout prevent it becoming that, but its a sporty four door sedan.

    Except for one or two things, the CVT is not as bad as people make it out to be. It takes a few months, but you get used to and then when you get back into a vehicle with a regular A/T and feel shift shock, you think something is wrong ;)

    In regards to fitting into this thread category its tuff to say. The Maxima is an oddity and hard to classify. Its not from a luxury division and some people have difficulty using the word luxury and Nissan in the same sentence and I can understand that. On the other hand, the power/performance, price, luxury sedan features, etc that you can get in this car would suggest and warrant at least a entry-level luxury classification. Everyone will tell you something different b/c there are no books stating what car classes there are and what goes into what.

    I've heard people classify the Maxima has followed over the years, "entry-level luxury sedan," "premium full-size sedan," "near luxury sedan." Pick anyone you want and use it or whatever floats your boat. It really, in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean jack squat!
  • kfdmedkfdmed Member Posts: 130
    edited July 2010
    Have any driven the Maxima CVT for any period of time? Driven it in the sport mode? The CVT in sport mode does more than just give you shift shock ... the engine revs more like a traditional auto transmission. I once thought whats the point of artificial shifting in a CVT? After using it for a while I understand why they included with the CVT.
    I drove the base FWD TL and Maxima back to back and dont think the TL is any more "sporty" than the Maxima.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited July 2010
    The 4G FWD TL is less sporty in my opinion then the 7G FWD Maxima, not by much but enough I noticed a difference. The Maxima had a slightly firmer/sportier ride and feedback, slightly better handling, and the look of the actual vehicle was sportier. Your right the CVT in sport mode does help to give the shift shock imitation, which is important in the feedback department, louder exhaust note upon acceleration when gunning it compared to regular drive, and the engine revs as you mentioned, all of which provides the sportier needs anyone would want from a regular A/T.

    Now, once you move up to the AWD 6 M/T version of the 4G TL, that the TL becomes sportier than the new Maxima, but the base version is definitely tamer then the new Maxima.

    Remember, a lot of people have valid critisms and hatred of the CVT b/c of what happened with the 1G version of it from 2003-2008. Since 2009, all the Nissan products have the updated 2G CVT which is much more efficient, less troubles, and far fewer problems then the 1G had. Nissan extended the transmission warranty so the CVT for them is here to stay! So far I overall really like the CVT and the fuel econ for 290HP is absolutely fabulous.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Good to see you're still around brother! I'm about 10 days away from being completely BMW-less.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    smarty how many mpg are you getting from the max-- my g gets 16mpg city 23-24 highway (going 60 with the windows up and the a/c off)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Not much to say in a while, but always lurking.

    My 2004 V70 now has 110,000 trouble free miles. Installed a set of Bilsteins recently and it's like a new car again.

    My M3 is going strong with 215,000 miles and no significant services in almost 2 years. No plans to replace either one any time soon - in this economy, I like having no monthly car payment.

    How about you? Going to replace the X3 with something bigger to fit your growing family?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Standing pat just like you. The Prelude is still motoring along with over 123,000 miles on the odometer. I just had to replace the 2 front upper control arms. The LF ball joint was really loose & it comes as an assembly with the control arm. Do you think I should have an alignment done?

    The TSX is our family hauler for the forseeable future. We just bought a house and don't want to take on any more monthly payments.

    Truthfully I'd like to get a repalcement (Note I didn't say I want to replace) for the Prelude maybe next year if it is in the budget. It doesn't have LATCHes for the car seats & truthfully I don't feel if I have to take my kids somewhere that buckling the car seats in with the seat belt is anywhere nearly as strong as the LATCHes.

    I'm probably going to want the next X3, but I'm sure the Turbo version with only a few options is going to push $50K & the 240 hp NA motor isn't going to cut it for my needs. I live in CT now and to say the on ramps are short is an understatement. Plus there are stop signs before you merge onto the parkway, not yield signs. Both my Prelude and TSX NEED a running start due to their lack of low end torque.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Yup, get an alignment.

    No need for you to go down the "new car every 3 years" road. It's a trap. $21,000 for a low mileage X3 with known history sounds like a bargain to me...
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Well it depends and I live in a rural city. area so the mpg is going to be better then a big major city obviously. So far the best mpg is in the Spring (Mar-May) and Fall (Oct-Nov) and that is 26-27 mpg avg with 24mpg city and 30-34mpg highway/interstate.

    Now in the summer with the A/C on and the high humidity/temps each of those figures I've given you have gone down about 2mpg. I've been avg since the middle of June about 23-24 mpg avgs with 22mpg city and 28-31mpg on highway.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited July 2010
    No need for you to go down the "new car every 3 years" road. It's a trap.

    Exactly. I've had my Club Sport for 15 years, the Wrangler for 8 years, and the X3 for five- with no plans to replace them anytime soon(never in the case of the Club Sport). My 1975 2002A is going to be my son's first car. He eventually wants a 944/924S, so I told him to drive the '02 for a year; if he keeps his grades up and doesn't collect any accidents or tickets we'll sell the '02 and he can get a P car- although he'll have to pay the difference between the selling price of the '02 and the purchase price of the Porsche.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I've always admired your fleet. It's a great mix of cars.

    I'm thinking e30 325i convertible for my daughter. I've got 2 years to find the right one...
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I'm thinking e30 325i convertible for my daughter. I've got 2 years to find the right one...

    I'm sure you know this, but really nice E30s do turn up from time to time. I still have a soft spot for the 325is. It's a timeless and elegant design- from both an aesthetic and an engineering standpoint.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    You're right about the $21K for a used x3 with a known history is a good deal. I just don't have the money right now. In fact, If I would have known how willing the BMW dealer was going to sell off the contracted residual, maybe I would have kept on driving the X3 & then it would have like 60K miles on it and be worth even less.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    When I am asked questions I don't want to answer and am not compelled to answer I just say, "NA." On the other hand, I usually have no privacy issues -- since there is none anymore -- and I am not really off put by such questions.

    I mean, I think I would rather look at survey results about steak vs lamb vs chicken from people who were meat eaters rather than folks who, for whatever reason, chose not to eat meat.

    I guess income is a data point -- folks who make 6 figures may not buy BMW's, but perhaps folks who make low 5 figures can not buy them. I, for one, would be interested in someones opinion who actually participated in buying, owning and driving "X" rather than someone who, for wahtever reason, did not buy, own or drive "X"!

    I don't participate in Bently forums and now with the price of the new A8, for instance, I won't participate there either. I can't afford a Bently and at $95,000 for a new A8, the sacrifices in other parts of my life make it, as a practical matter, unaffordable too.

    I say, market away -- just don't MAKE me pony up information. :confuse:
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Read a previous post that revealed the many Audi's you have owned. Been looking at A4's and wonder if before the original warranty expires can you opt for the extended cpo type warranty ? Is it better to opt for it when you buy or do it later.Any idea of the cost? Of course you are still responsible for tiers -brakes - belts etc which I imagine are pricey but not a surprise for euro cars. Enjoyed your comments.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    with these cars in a tight race to beat the beemer -- who will make the next move?
    transmission in the acura line needs to change along with its face (and possibly move the drive wheels to the rear), the ES and IS are old forms, the CTS continues to evolve, the Benz has great looks but no guts in non-amg form, The G has pumped up the HP once again (but whats next for them, o yeah a lower v6 version), A4 just redone (only a 4cyl hello), the S60 has entered with 300hp but its a volvo.. i wonder who makes the next step.. is 350 hp the new standard??
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    with these cars in a tight race to beat the beemer -- who will make the next move?

    I think you mean "bimmer". "Beemer" has always referred to the BMW motorcycle.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    ...and we all still knew what he meant ;)
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I'd be shocked, based on Acura's recent statements and talk the last few years if we will see RWD in any of their models soon. I personally agree with you that they should at the least introduce it into the next RL but I doubt they will. Acura can't seem to get near RWD or V8s with a ten foot pole right now. Well be lucky if within the next two years if all their models have a 6spd automatic. Only the MDX and ZDX have that right now I believe. The rest is still 5spd. :sick:
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    meant? err...ment :D (misspell a made up word...)

    I'm sure you knew what I was meaning to say :blush:
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    I currenlty own a 2010 TL SH-AWD. I looked at the RL also. To be honest, I can't understand why anyone would buy or lease the current RL versus the TL. The TL is slightly larger, has the same engine, gets better gas mileage and is thousands less. Yes, the RL in its current form is quite dated but has some nice attributes. My suggestions for the next generation RL is to make it a few inches wider, about 6 inches longer (adding back seat room and trunk space). Instead of rear wheel drive, they can keep the current AWD platform and use a turbo charged V6 engine that produces 300+ ft/lbs of torque and around 330+ HP. Acura utilizes turbo charging technology in the RDX , so it is not new technology for them. BMW, Audi, and even Ford are using turbo charging with great success.
  • kevinc5kevinc5 Member Posts: 204
    Finally, someone gets it right. Thanks. (A long time Bimmer fan.)
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Exactly, Acura screwed themselves on the RL just like Nissan, until the newest generation of course, did with the Maxima and Altima. They made the Altima more powerful, nicer materials, etc over their flagship Maxima, which then in turn hurt the Maxima b/c the Altima was cheaper and you were getting more for your money. Thankfully Nissan rectified this problem with the 2009-pres Maxima but will see if they screw it up again when the Altima is redone again for 2012 model year.

    Acura did the same thing to their flagship right now (the RL) with the current TL in the regards you pointed out.
  • maxima03maxima03 Member Posts: 7
    Your car is one sweet ride.
    Automobile mag just did comparo between 2010 6sp TL SH-AWD and 2010 S4. (The mag) said it's pretty much a wash. The S4 best lap was less than 0.5 sec. faster than the TL. IMO, that's pretty impressive for acura.

    I also remember a few months ago Car and Driver gave the nod to the S4 vs 335i.
  • kfdmedkfdmed Member Posts: 130
    Let's get rid of this asap ...not what I like to see when trolling ;)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    i think automobile mag as a joke in declaring the TL a close auto to the S4 -sure you can save $$ but its not the same performer-- please look at every other credible magazine before making the TL out to be a winner- here are a few links to check out

    http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/g37/2009/comparison-test-2009-acura-tl-sh-awd- -vs-2009-infiniti-g37-journey.html

    here it just on par with the VWCC

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/2009-acura-tl-sh-awd-vs.-2009-volks- wagen-cc-3.6l-4motion/page_4_-_2009_acura_tl_sh-awd_vs._2009_volkswagen_cc_3.6l_- 4motion_page_4

    and here it gets beat by 2 cars with 70 less hp

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q2/2009_infiniti_g37_vs._bmw_3- 28i_audi_a4_and_acura_tl-comparison_te
  • billyperks2billyperks2 Member Posts: 378
    The bimmer is 300 hp 300 torque, the G37 is around 330 hp and forgot the torque.
    So which car with 70 hp less than the Acura out ran it?
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    I don''t think comparing the TL to the A4, S4, 3 series, or G37 is an accurate comparison due to the fact the the TL is considerably larger. Why not compare the new Infiniti M series to the S4 or a Mercedes E 350 to a G37? The only thing the TL has in common with the smaller cars is price. I would not expect a TL to be able to run a slalom course with any of the above cars due to the shear bulk of the TL compared to the others. 0-60 times have the same issue. I could care less whether a TL can beat an S4 to 60 mph. My TL SH-AWD comes close to equaling most performance measures of an S4 . And when I entertain clients, I can put two full sized adults in the back seat of my TL in comfort. And the list price of my TLwas about $9,000 less than a comparably equipped S4.
  • billyperks2billyperks2 Member Posts: 378
    The TL will beat ALL the cars named in the Slalom- the test was done.
    I too am quite pleased (understatement) with my TL.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2010
    BMW 328i and Audi A4 2.0. (The numbers you cited were for 335i which was not in C&D's comparison test.)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited August 2010
    why do they make the RL then??
    I think its great that the TL is roomy but so is a buick, In comparison tests the TL always ranks lower then cars in its price class-(as noted in the 3 links i posted)-the class acura put this car in from the beginning --as an entry level lux sedan -- this is the class that makes it possible for other cars under the lux line to exist because they sell alot of them.. if your driving an automatic TLAWD and think it will outperform a S4, then you never drove an S4,-- TL is a good middle of the road sedan, in manual form its comes closer to S4 but no one here on these chats ownes a 6speed (infact one in 6k comes in manual....ronn knows this stat).. edmunds reviewed the 6speed-- its a different animal.

    http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2010/testdrive.html
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    Before my TL SH-AWD purchase, I drove every midsize luxury performance sedan out there. E350, 5 Series, M37, Audi A6, GS 350 to name a few. And, in my opinion, the TL in terms of power, handling, comfort, amenities, and over all luxury feel is in the ball park with all the cars mentioned here. Now, if price were not a consideration, would I choose the TL over a 5 series or A6, probably not. But the TL is $10,000+ less comparably equipped. That is a huge advantage. Another advantage to the TL that the others don't have is the SH-AWD. When you take a corner hard in the TL, it almost defies physics as you can feel the outside wheels forcing the car into the turn. It is a unique feeling and makes for a fun drive. I also drove a Buick LaCrosse and with the exception of a beautiful interior, the LaCrosse does not measure up to the TL in performance areas and is not the same type of car, more of a nice luxury sedan.

    Regarding the RL, that is a dated design that needs a change. I assume the next gneration RL will be a step up in size and maybe power from the current TL to differentiate it. But who knows. Again, the TL does compare well to the other sedans. It is a tremendous value in this very competitive segment.
  • billyperks2billyperks2 Member Posts: 378
    That's why I dont read those silly comparison test because it is just useless to the everyday driver. Is anyone really going to be going 0-60 in 5 seconds on the highway? Is anyone really braking at 114 ft from 0-60? Is anyone doing 0.84g in a sloam with their cars? Unless you take the car over to Skip Barber race track, then these things become a reality.

    Secondly, did they test the 328I manual 6spd and the Audi manual against the TLAWD? I am guessing they did. They need to test a 328xi automatic and audi automatic AWD against the TL AWD.
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