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I think the range of prices is $30-$34 thousand. It will be interesting to see how many loaded ones will be on the lots compared to mid-level trims.
I bought a 3 series recently after owning an A4, and a couple of Saab 900s. I bought these previous cars after testing TLs and G35s. I certainly thought the Japanese cars were as good looking and I liked the idea of owning a less blingy, more reliable car. But I like the road feel of the European cars so I bought the Euromobiles even though they did not have as many standard toys. I never tested a Bimmer in these 3 shopping trips because I think there has been a stigma or stereotype of a haughty jerk that is connected with Bimmer drivers. So, for me at least, the BMW image was a turnoff.
But I have a hearing loss and now need a quieter car. So I tested more cars this time, including the A4, TL, CC, IS, ES, and the C300. And the 3 series, even though I think the 328 sedan is the least attractive of all these cars, especially the gorgeous C and G. Not only was the 3 series quieter than all but the land yacht ES, it handled better than the C300 and the A4. It handled much better than the TL, ES and IS. The G37 had similar handling. And the 328 had better ergonomics for a 6-3 guy and better highway gas mileage/emissions than all the other cars.
As another poster mentioned, the 328/325 has better Consumer Reports repair ratings than A4 and C300 and the same ratings as the Japanese cars, except for the land yacht. I bought a three year used 328i for about 50% off original MSRP. I got over the image. The bad one that is.
All I ever mentioned was the word prestige and how that contributes a lot to German luxury sales. I did say that was not the sole and only reason that people buy German vehicles but many on here seem to have missed that. I even mentioned BMW performance/handling as a key factor in conjunction with the BMW badge as reasons why they are so successful.
You as well have strong conclusions claiming "facts" about the 3-Series without any data. Don't get me wrong, the 3-Series is a great car but, it doesn't have better city or highway gas mileage then all those other vehicles you test drove and I find it hard to believe it has the best ergonomics for a tall person considering there are other vehicles in that class with more front headroom then the 328 where when your taller, headroom makes the most difference. Not saying the 3-Series is a bad car, it certainly has several pros over some of the other entry-level lux sedans but not in those areas you mentioned.
328i 19/28 mpg (F/R Headroom 38.5''/37.5'')
G37 19/27mpg (F/R Headroom 39.1"/37.2")
A4 22/30mpg (F/R Headroom 40.0''/37.5'')
C300 18/26mpg (F/R Headroom 37.1''/36.9'')
TL 18/26mpg (F/R Headroom 38.4''/36.7'')
IS250 21/30mpg (F/R Headroom 37.2''/36.7'')
ES350 19/27mpg (F/R Headroom 37.8''/37.0'')
I'm not saying I only get Japanese luxury vehicles because that couldn't be further from the truth. I've had Acura, Infiniti, Mercedes, and a Caddy so far. Unless Acura changes direction, I'll most likely be shopping Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, and Audi the next time around.
Find that you like your Acura - but wow, talk about the kettle calling the pot black...
I like the Acura I have, but nothing really from their current product line. That is not new news and not the first time I've mentioned it on here.
And what exactly is a "strong" conclusion? I made some statements such as the ergonomics are better for a 6-3 guy than the other cars. Um, okay. I got in the cars and moved the seats around. I fit in the BMW much better than any of the cars, including the A4, which I actually owned. So, the manufacturers specs are relatively meaningless. For all its warts, CR does try to deal with the manufacturer discrepancies by trying to compensate for them. But even CR does not account for sloping roof tops, which hinder vision. I take it you don't have that issue of being a big guy ....
Which brings us to big highway mpg. Thanks for all your googling of stats but I don't think they help this conversation, the point of which is to share experiences and go beyond the manufacturer and EPA dynometer specs. If you look on fuelconomy.gov or at Edmunds self reporting responses, BMWs get remarkable highway mileage - and mind you, these are BMW drivers who drive fast. The 328, 528 and even 535/335s are almost legendary for getting 29-33 mpg going 70 mph. I averaged 29 mpg going from SB to SF doing about 72 mph. Sure, these are self reporting and anecdotal but the number of them certainly helped convinced me and my experience confirmed them. Again, that is what these forums are for.
Also, your mpg numbers use 2 pretty suspect models. The A4 FWD, which is [non-permissible content removed] due to the fuel saving CVT and the slow, remarkably cramped, Toyota-like IS250.
BTW, my post starts off referencing your apparent mission (BMWs are for prestige hungry wannabees) but mainly, I just wanted some buyers to take a look at my personal experiences. Have a glass of wine or something (after you drive that nose heavy TL, that is....)
So we all have our own needs, which puts us into different markets. I had never thought about it before but the TL drivers do seem to be a bit combative. I think this thread has a huge TL vs. G battle in past years. I actually like both cars (I considered both in 2 car purchases) and think that many people would be happy with either. I think the G and 3 Series are a little more engaging to drive but every once in a while, I pine for a slightly smoother car - maybe like a TL or C300. I never pine for a GM, Suzuki or Toyota....
what disappointing now is that I have provided stats which are simply brushed off as not being able to go by what the manufacturers of their OWN vehicles put out so whats the point of providing stats if they are just going to be dismissed; it seems hypocritical and a waste of my time then
anyone today can beat window sticker EPA estimates in real world experiences and I've done it on my last 5 vehicles so that means that under ideal driving conditions and location any of those entry-level lux vehicles can be exceeded in those numbers on real world conditions or lowered if conditions are not ideal
apparently by saying that a lot of BMW and MB sales are due to the prestige factor has offended some or they would not be making a big deal of it. I have said before there is nothing wrong with that and I'm not trying to put them down based on it; BMW, MB, and Lexus would not be where they are if it was not for a long, proud, prestigious history in this country and they have rightly earned that reputation; maybe it all has to do with the word "a lot" - maybe it would have been better to say "some", I don't know.
apparently I'm some Acura fan boy who hates all German vehicles; he must of miss the part when I said I've had a MB before and I'm planning on shopping German the next time around; I must be shopping on the prestige factor as well then :P
Almost forgot, tons of compliments just keep raining in on my White Diamond Pearl TL AWD. This gentleman at church told me to take good care of his car (meaning my car).
As another poster would say-
Happy Motoring!!!
Please try reading the actual posts and responding to the actual text of the posts. It make the thread go better. For instance, if I say the 328 has better highway mpg than the other cars in its class, you are not responding to that statement by saying "the 3-Series is not the best fuel economy vehicle in its class." That is what is called a strawman. Since you do it repeatedly, I doubt I can convince you to stop but I will try anyway. I did not refer to overall fuel economy as city mpg was not important to me in my purchase. I, like a lot of other people, drive very little city miles as I walk or ride my bike to work.
If I say that the cars you selectively posted are not a good representation of the 328 competitors, you are not responding to my post by saying "those competitor models get either better or the same fuel mpg then the 3-Series or puts them down regardless." First, I don't know what the heck that sentence means and second, my statement stands unrefuted. But if you want putdowns, here is one for you: the IS250 is blingy Scion tC. Please don't compare it to the 3 series.
Also, I agree that no one cares about one's anecdotal experiences in beating the EPA numbers. However, people do seem to care about the dozens of reports from owners that could amount to some cumulative evidence about the real world operation of the vehicle that they are considering. (The EPA numbers are helpful for emissions though.)
I do agree with one line in your post: "apparently I'm some Acura fan boy who hates all German vehicles;"
My wife used my IS350 for her church ladies weekend...now it makes a squeaky sound.
Sounds like a bearing...or something.
Doesn't sound sporty or luxurious.
Luckily the 'wild pig' she claimed ran out and hit the side of her mini-van didn't get my IS...that darned pig left a white paint streak :surprise:
If you want a real sport sedan experience, you need three components(manual is a given):
1 - RWD
2 - Inline engine, preferably an I-6 or turbo 4 180-200HP minimum.
3 - curb weight under 3000lbs. Preferably 2800.
Nothing on the market fits this, though a few coupes and roadsters do. But just under 3600lbs is entirely in the wrong universe.
FWIW #1, the 2011 328i weighs in at 3,362 pounds, only 165 pounds more than my 1999 328i. Not too shabby.
FWIW #2, the last time a 3-Series sedan with an I6 engine weighed 3,000 or less was 1991 (although the 1992 tipped the scales at 3,021 lbs.).
FWIW #3, given that the MUCH more capable 2011 328i weighs only 341 pounds more than the 1992 325i, I think BMW did a pretty good job at packaging all of the new safety requirements, structural integrity and extra size. Personally if I was given the option of the 1992 or the 2011, I'd choose the 2011 every time (although I would almost immediately chuck the RFTs in favor of a good set of GFTs, a move that will knock another 25 pounds of weight off the car).
Best regards,
Shipo
'92 = 15.98lbs/hp and 16.69lbs/ft-lb. Peak torque 4700rpm. Mileage 19mpg average.
'11 = 14.62lbs/hp and 16.81lbs/ft-lb. Peak torque 2750rpm. Mileage 22mpg average.
And while I don't have the data to back it up, I'm pretty confident in saying a stock '11 would whoop a stock '92 around any track, even with the extra 300lbs. Progress ain't always a bad thing.
Now, don't get me wrong. I hate weight, too. Just can't have it all for a reasonable price, though.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Have you driven a 2011?
Not having driven a 335 since I bought what I have now, I was rather impressed with the ride in 2 335iS [ coupes ] that I have recently driven – both with 19” runflats. I have read that the dampers were changed. The ride was quite acceptable – and noticeably better than I recall from driving 2009s.
- Ray
Just one data point . . .
Does the 3 have a 'well' in the trunk for
a full sized spare?
You can use all the personal anecdotes you want from your own personal experience for mpg but what comes down to comparing between vehicles is what the epa and manufacturers say their fuel ratings are: why don't you provide a link about manufacturer discrepancies in mpg; I think its a bunch of bull b/c if anything, in the last 10 years, the epa and manufacturer mpg estimates have gotten pretty accurate a cross the board, compared to before that time, and I've seen this pretty consistently supported on all the personal avgs I've seen people report on the various auto boards I belong to; if you don't want to believe that, its your own problem.
you can't say that no one cars about personal reports of people's mpg experiences but then its okay to take the numbers reported personally from a group of a few dozen or a few hundreds, which is what your saying; its still not that big of a population size compared to the tens of thousands or hundred of thousand owners of these vehicles
There is no need to provide links and stats for my statement about prestige being a factor in BMW and MB purchases. This is real easy but you seem to not understand nor would I provide links since your going to just dismiss them and thus waste my time.
1) German vehicles have lower resale values then their Japanese counterparts (look at ALG for that one)
2) On a whole, the German manufacturers still do not have the long-term reliability and less problems their Japanese counterparts have ON AVERAGE (look at CR long-term reliability history charts specifically). Can also say, the chance of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still slightly higher than the chance of getting a problem littered Japanese vehicle
3) similar equipped BMW/MB and Japanese vehicles do not cost the same amount with the Germans having a few thousand price premium (just build them on each website with same equipment to find this out)
Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get. But, there are a lot of people not choosing the Japanese vehicle and opting for the more expensive, more depreciating, higher chance possibility of problem littered German vehicle. Some people making that decision HAVE to be doing based on the prestige/ reputation factor that MB and BMW have.
Now, as you conveniently leave out every post you respond to and don't say, I've said time and time again, not ALL people are making that decision based on prestige, though you are trying to make it out that is what I'm saying; I've said before, some are making that decision for other reasons, like performance advantage, luxury comfort factors, etc but prestige is a factor. Maybe its not called prestige, maybe its called something else, you can make up your own word, I don't care, just get over it.
Again, you took my comment out of context that I said at the end of my post to try and make it appear I'm anti-German and that couldn't be further from the truth
1 - RWD
2 - Inline engine, preferably an I-6 or turbo 4 180-200HP minimum.
3 - curb weight under 3000lbs. Preferably 2800.
My 318ti Club Sport comes close; 2700 lbs. and 150 bhp. In a few years I'm going to fit a stroker motor that will up the power to around 220 bhp. I have to say I really like light tossable cars- my old 2002 may be a tad bit slow but with less than 2400 lbs. to carry around it is a real blast on a winding road.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
The problem I see with this statement is that they are not similarly equipped.
I know you're talking about heated this, and bluetooth that, but much of the value in a European car is not in the bells and whistles, it's in the engineering.
I can go to KMart and buy a wood veneer dining room set for $500 that looks and functions a lot like a $2000 Ethan Allen set. Which one is the better value?
I guess it all comes down to how much "value" one places in having an in-line 6 engine, superb steering feel, and near-perfect chassis balance vs. 19" wheels, iPod integration, and a 30GB hard drive.
I know which features I prefer...
And, by the way, the days of the true "sport sedan" are long gone and not coming back. But this thread isn't about sport sedans anyways - it's about entry-level luxury sport sedans. Big difference. Mentioning sport sedans in this thread is simply off-topic.
I had a '98 A4 and it was just fabulous. But even that car has bloated up.
I know it is OT, but have you seen the ugliness and the increased size of the new Jetta? OMG. :surprise:
"Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get"
If you are only looking dollars and cents, then a Honda provides what your acura does at a lower price
This whole line of bantering is silly any way - the best car is each of our opinion. I have had my car over 2 years now and it puts a smile on my face every morning - as long as your car puts a smile on your face each morning, then in fact you have the best car.
My favorite sports sedan from the "classic" era was the 1983 Volvo 242 Group-A turbo("Flathood"). I sat in one about 20 years back and was shocked at how fast it moved. I mean, compared to stuff like a Camaro doing 8 or 10 seconds, it ran like a fire was under its rear end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHogwVJ1Nc&feature=related
Almost 30 years old and WHY can't we get at least this good today, given modern materials and technology? Remember, this car cost 18K or so back then. So even adjusted for inflation, it's the same price as a base 3 series today.
I'm waiting, but I still haven't found a worthy successor for my E30 M3. As long as I can get parts for it, I'm keeping it.
I absolutely agree, which is why I'm so pleased to have slipped in just under the wire to buy one of the last of the previous versions -- besides which, it has no beak.
I do agree with you about the value of German engineering and as I mentioned before, that is definitely a factor when purchasing one of their vehicles for many people, myself included. I would have not tried that Mercedes a few years ago if it wasn't. At least in my case, prestige did play a part in getting that MB because in conjunction with the luxury precision comfort MB's are known for. It except for 2 things covered under warranty, I really enjoyed that MB and it sure the heck was more reliable then the Caddy I had.
My point is that you cannot get them "similarly equipped." You cannot get an Acura or Infinity with an in-line 6 engine. The VQ is a thrashy mess, and the Acura V6 is fine, but it's no inline.
Now the I-4 in the TSX is a sweet engine - especially when mated to their excellent 6-speed manual. If it had been RWD, I'd probably still be driving it...
(it shouldn't be surprising considering those are European manufacturers, and Acura isn't.)
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Fun days and dicing with the trams was a great way to become fully alert on the way to the office of a morning.
As for being nice and fast, yup, I rode in a brand spankin' new E320D a few years ago from the 8th Arrondissement to CDG at about five in the morning. The cabbie was justifiably proud of his new ride and absolutely nailed it when we got on the Péripherique; we were moving north of 160 kph (100 mph) in no time.
As for calling folks "Fools", if you want a flame war, keep it up. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead in a TL-SHAWD, its a nose heavy sled for poseurs. You want a real car, stop looking at Acura.
There, back at'cha. :P
And no, we aren't going to start a war, at least not one that gets personal. That doesn't work for us.
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As for BMWs and Mercedes-Benzs being "mass-produced", so? What's your point? All cars with the exception of a few exotics are "mass-produced"; the difference is that some companies imbue their cars with better design and engineering than others. With the lone exceptions of the NSX and the S2000, I've yet to see a Honda product that measures up (class for class) to any Benz or BMW.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Sure you can get them similar equipped I guess you've just failed to try and build them properly
the only thing that is wrong with the VQ is its noise level at idle sometimes; it is one of the best performance oriented engine I've ever had and still kills the Acura V6s for performance and acceleration!. Might becoming to an end though if MB has its way in the partnership.
I have an '01 BMW 330i that I bought in June of that year - more than 9 years ago - & I've had exactly zero electrical problems to date.
Also, I'm looking at the 2010 Consumer Reports auto issue as I write this. (I've subscribed to CR for over 30 years, BTW.) CR rates the 3-series BMW as "better than average" & the 5-series as "average". (The 5 gets a lower rating because of problems with its sound system.) For both cars, CR rates the core systems - engine, cooling, transmission, fuel & electrical - as either "better than average" or "much better than average".
In fact, the frequency of repair ratings for late-model BMW 3s are just about identical to those for recent Acura TLs.
Oh... and by the way.. CHECK THEIR LABOR RATES! YIKES!!!!!!
I don't know about you, but after the factory warranty expires, I don't go back to the dealer. Why would anyone do that? I use an excellent independent mechanic, who takes care of my wife's Lexus, my BMW & our Honda CR-V. So I can say quite truthfully that I don't pay a higher labor rate for my BMW than I do for our 2 Japanese cars.