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Comments
Consider yourself lucky.
My co-worker has the 330XI and that car literally calls the dealer its second home.
Didn't realize that the TSX I4 that I drive is only one step away from a threshing machine.
Live and learn.
I've only driven 1.3 million miles.
Look on the bright side; it seems I've been driving taxis at HPDEs since 1988... :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
The E46 3-series cars have been quite reliable overall. Several of my friends & co-workers own them & have had good experiences with them.
What's the fare? I think I'd like a ride in your cab...
"Just can't justify it over a Acura or Lexus in terms of reliability, value, resale and similar quality." Who in the world would want to? Sports sedans are to go fast around corners in. Why would you buy them for "value?" You want value, get a Honda. Oh, wait. You did.
"Those 3 FACTS indicate that, SIMILARLY EQUIPPED Japanese vs German luxury vehicles are giving the Japanese a better financial decision to get. But, there are a lot of people not choosing the Japanese vehicle and opting for the more expensive, more depreciating, higher chance possibility of problem littered German vehicle. Some people making that decision HAVE to be doing based on the prestige/ reputation factor that MB and BMW have." "Have to be?" What are you Captain Jean Luc Picard? Just because you say so, does not make it so. You still provide no data to support your conclusion that people buy BMWs for prestige. I am glad you mention some factors that you use for your conclusion but your conclusion is, unfortunately, baseless b/c you are comparing apples to oranges in preferences. As Fedlawman points out, BMW buyers buy BMWs for their inline 6s, handling, and transmissions. You and other TL owners buy a sports luxury car for "value" and "resale."
"why don't you provide a link about manufacturer discrepancies in mpg; I think its a bunch of bull b/c if anything, in the last 10 years, the epa and manufacturer mpg estimates have gotten pretty accurate a cross the board," Okay - here are the links. Not so hard, eh? But first, your attn span is really limited. I mentioned manufacturer discrepancies for space figures not mpg. No one takes manufacturers space numbers seriously. Regarding EPA mpg numbers, it is pretty unanimous among testers and the EPA itself that the EPA dynometer testing is inaccurate.
From CR - "While the new overall mileage ratings are closer to the results of our real-world testing, there are still discrepancies between the EPA’s lab-generated results and the mileage we got from driving the cars on roads." http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/resource-center/fuel-economy/ep- - a-mileage-figures/overview/0709_mpg_ov.htm
From Edmunds: The EPA acknowledges that test results might differ from real-world fuel economy ratings. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/105503/article.html
"I've said before, (No kidding!) .... prestige is a factor. Maybe its not called prestige, maybe its called something else, you can make up your own word, I don't care, just get over it. Well, actuallly, since it is all baseless anyway, there isn't much to get over. But I know how you can get over German car envy. Sell the nose heavy TL and buy a Bimmer. There see, I can be helpful.
A vehicle or manufacturer with prestige would be:
"standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion"
So, for the most part a vehicle/manufacturer has to EARN that prestige...when we go test drive we determine if they live up to it.
So, some people are lazy...they look at a vehicle's reputation (prestige)...and buy.
One vehicle may have a reputation for being sporty...another for reliability.
Buying a vehicle because it has a reputation for reliability is no more noble than buying a vehicle because it is sporty or luxurious. I know our CEO and CIO both purchased their Lexus LS's because it is "supposed" to be reliable...they didn't do exhaustive test drives or pour over long term reliability reports.
I currently own a Lexus. I didn't buy it because of it's prestige...I actually prefer many VW's models over Lexus.
Way back, I drove a late 90's (maybe 2000) 3 series...think 323 and was disappointed. I thought "I was expecting more...". I drove an ES300...and thought a VW Jetta was far superior.
Difficult thing about a reputation is it's hard to change quickly. People still flock to Toyota (If I hear bullet proof in reference to Toyota reliability again I'll put a bullet in my head...well maybe not...but I'll be really annoyed).
Audi has a bad reputation for reliability; the ones I've owned were less trouble than the Lexus or Honda's I've owned...although non of them were "bad".
It's all good
You just don't get it, I did provide the three factors making up the prestige decision in some of BMW and MB purchases so you of course missed that as usual. ALG residual value awards, CR LONG TERM reliability chart data (I'm talking for the previous model years, not the average or above avg ratings that they have given just TWO of BMW models for the last 2 years. There are much more black dots on BMW, Audi, and MB then there is for Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti, I'm talking 4 or 5+ years here, not when the cars are still new and under warranty. And the cost factor of similarly equipped vehicles built on each manufacturer's website.
So there is the lack of proof your complaining about. I've told you the sites, where to look and what to do, not my fault your sitting there with your hands over your eyes acting ignorant.
"Okay - here are the links. Not so hard, eh? But first, your attn span is really limited. I mentioned manufacturer discrepancies for space figures not mpg. No one takes manufacturers space numbers seriously. Regarding EPA mpg numbers, it is pretty unanimous among testers and the EPA itself that the EPA dynometer testing is inaccurate."
Wow talk about limited attention spans, you actually were talking about EPA mpg discrepancies/inaccuracies now your complaining about space figures. Give me a break, your so full of it you'll say and do anything to prove your 3 year old 3-Series is Gods gift to man. It does not have the best highway mpg nor the most room of the entry-level lux sedans in its class. Get over it. Great, EPA figures are completely inaccurate and most people can get even better than that if they want to so if others vehicles can get better than their EPA then that means they still can get better mpg then the 3-Series since they are rated higher to begin with. Just because you and few dozen or few hundred sample size of the 3-Series have gotten great mpg doesn't mean all the hundreds of thousands of 3-Series owners are and thus proves nothing.
You make yourself look ridiculous that when I post actual stats to disprove your grandiose claims you spend all your time squirming around it by "oh this is inaccurate, that is inaccurate, oh you can't go by this, me and a bunch of other people got this, etc. Excuse, excuse, excuse! Now we can't go by manufacturer space figures, c-mon :sick:
" But I know how you can get over German car envy. Sell the nose heavy TL and buy a Bimmer. There see, I can be helpful"
Why would I need to do that since I don't even have the new nose heavy TL nor do I like that car to begin with :confuse: I guess I'll never get over my German car envy since I guess the MB in my driveway isn't considered a German car :surprise:
keep up the good work..
1) Japanese vehicles have higher residual values then German vehicles still
2) The CHANCE of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still higher than a Japanese one and a higher CHANCE of having more expensive/numerous long-term reliability issues
3) when similarly built up with the same size engine, features, content, navigation, etc the German vehicles cost a few thousand more than their Japanese counterparts
These are all facts supported by various websites, CR, ALG, manufacturer's own websites, among others.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with these facts. There are many reasons to getting German over Japanese, mechanical and performance characteristics being just one, but if someone knows those 3 facts mentioned above and still chooses the German luxury vehicle over the Japanese luxury vehicle then some are making the decision based on some factor other than financial reasons or just sport performance, luxury features, etc. Its because of the name and brand definition of BMW and MB. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. That was part of the reason I got my MB those years ago You can give a name to what ever that factor/reason is, I call it prestige. Call it what you want.
I just can't for the life of me believe there are people on here who do not believe brand recognition/prestige is not a buying factor for many people when getting a BMW or MB. :confuse:
- Most European vehicles handle better than their Japanese competition
- Most European luxury makes have nicer interiors than their Japanese competition
Just to stay balanced.
As far as reliability/repair frequency is concerned, the Asian vehicles have the edge but the Germans - particularly BMW - are closing the gap.
So there!
Oh yeah? Well I have a friend who has a third cousin who knows a guy who told him that a guy he works has a wife that knows a receptionist who works for a dentist who had a BMW, and that car cost $5000 a month to keep running. Now he has a Lexus that has gone 400,000 miles and he's never even changed the oil in it.
So there!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I'm selling my M3 and buying a Lexus!
Then again, once the sparkplug tube seals and that looong valve cover gasket dried out and cracked, the 225 would need a quart of oil every several hundred miles just to replace what got through the seals.
1) Japanese vehicles have higher residual values then German vehicles still
2) The CHANCE of getting a problem littered German vehicle is still higher than a Japanese one and a higher CHANCE of having more expensive/numerous long-term reliability issues
3) when similarly built up with the same size engine, features, content, navigation, etc the German vehicles cost a few thousand more than their Japanese counterparts
All these fit the descriptions of any appliance....
Here are some facts about German cars;
1) They handle better; the car is part of the driver; it goes where the driver wants to go; the driver feels what car is doing.
2) They give passion to the drivers. I only see my wife smiling while driving a BMW, any BMW, in all the test drive events.
3) They look better from outside; tight body, short overhang, creative curves.
4) They look better from inside; tasteful usage of wood, metal, color and texture.
5) They have higher prestige.
In short, the Japanese cars are for people who just want a tool from point A to point B. German cars are for people who love to drive to any points in style.
2) Not sure about passion, but definitely allows the driver to push the limits while driving with confidence
3) Designs are more evolutionary than revolutionary, but that's not a bad thing.
4) In my opinion, BMW interiors are very sedate and understated. My only gripe is the radio system. Without having read the manual, I challenge anyone new to BMW to figure out how to change the radio station.
5) Living in Dallas, BMWs are everywhere! Prestige factor is lower here.
Although I do have a mini-van since 2005...probably will keep it for another 5 years...
Lexus definitely has the prestige factor or so many people would not flock to them month after month for most of their products have such souless driving. I feel the same way about MB but they do a little bit better job of not making the drive as boring as Lexus does but do not come close to Audi, Infiniti, or BMW when it comes to driving dynamics and sport performance.
Infiniti gives passion for the driver, but if you have never had one you would not know that. I've raced many BMW's in my time with my Infiniti and have beaten many of them. Its a really fun to drive and I smile a lot when in it so there are Japanese vehicles that offer that passion and fun factor for the driver.
In regards to point 3, Infiniti has really nice looking vehicles, tight bodies, and many sporty curves to them. BMW used to really lack in this area until the new 3 and 5 series which finally have some nice curves in their body styles and I quite like the looks of both of them now on the outside. Audi's body styles are really nice as well.
In regards to point 4, the only German make who has a gorgeous interior is Audi. BMW is still on the plain side with little textures, color in their interiors and just are functional. Luckily they use high quality materials and little plastic which helps the blahness and makes the interior's livable and presentable. MB is using too much plastic like Acura does now on the interiors which is disappointing and a turn off for me. The new M from Infiniti has a really nice textured/high quality interior which competes finally on par with the Germans. Lexus has nice/high quality interiors as well depending on the model you get.
There are plenty of Japanese vehicles that are for people who love to drive to any points in style, you just don't care to look for them. Talk about a rash generalization.
IMHO MB interiors are much nicer than Lexus. They also smell much richer, something about differences in the leather.
A good analogy is a band. If one instrument stands out badly , it kind of ruins the thing. Japan usually gets only a couple of areas wrong, and sometimes manages this balancing act. GM -well, they're lucky if the band is in tune most days. :P
They sometimes play really well, it's just that the band has trouble getting through a song before one of the members goes unconscious from an overdose. :P
Though the leather was really nice quality and comfortable I'll give MB that!
The IS300 is a good example of a fine effort by Lexus to build a BMW. For the most part, they did a good job - in-line 6, 5 speed MT, fun to drive, and sporty inside. At the same time, they missed a few little things that held the car back from becoming a hit with enthusiasts - the interior was cheap and gimmicky (chronograph instruments), it wasn't as quick as a comparable BMW 330i, and it was nose heavy.
Of course, the biggest problem with the IS300 was sales. It didn't appeal to Lexus shoppers. It wasn't quiet, luxurious, or elegant so it didn't sell well.
A couple other opinions:
GM makes the Cadillac CTS, which by all accounts is a fine car in this class. It compares well to any car in this category, and does well because it doesn't try to be all things to all people. It is what it is, and it's proud of that.
Infinity is the closest Japan gets to building a BMW in this class, but it lacks many of the things that BMW buyers want - a smooth and refined driveline being at the top of the list. I also think it's wheelbase is too long and it's too heavy.
Kind of off-topic, but the best recent examples of Japanese sports cars are the dearly departed Honda S2000 and the Mazda Miata and RX-8. These cars are/were fantastic because they aren't trying to beat BMW or be a "Japanese BMW contender." They are great simply because they were built from the ground up to be great cars. Period.
Excellent point - very insightful post. I had never thought of the Miata & the RX-8 that way, but I see now that you're right.
A used Miata can be a terrific value. A friend bought an 8-year-old Miata for less than $3K some years ago & is having an indecent amount of fun with it. It's not fast, but the handling is superb & the gearbox is almost as much fun as you-know-what.
It handled very well and was handsome once they tinted the taillights. The wheels were sharp & filled the wells quite nicely.
It was ultimately too sharp, edgy, & rough for the traditional Lexus buyer. It didn't perform well enough to Wow the BMW crowd.
There were actually a bunch of us BMW lovers back in late '05 that were eagerly awaiting the arrival of the '06 IS because we thought Lexus was so close with the 1st gen IS that it would hit a home run with IS version 2.0
I happen to like the styling of the current IS. The IS 350 gets out if it's own way, but the brakes are instant on and cannot be modulated.
Performance-wise, the IS250 doesn't compete at all with a 328i. For the price of an IS350, I'll spend a few $$$ more and get a very nice N55 powered 335i which is available with 6-speed manual transmission.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
My only hope is that Infiniti figures out that it's the right thing and not mess with it until it's broken.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Seriously, what part of "put your best foot forward" isn't reaching these guys? It's like GM's Regal. Get rid of the base model corporate nonsense. Get rid of the base trim, the puny base engine, and only offer your best example FIRST. Then offer a cheaper alternative in a year or so. You have to strike hard when the product is new and fresh. If all you hear(as GM did) is "awesome, but the engine is pathetic", by the time you get to doing it right, everyone will have passed on for better choices.
Better question is how does the V6 mustang get 30 highway with almost +100 hp...if only Ford had something a little more refined on par with this class.
BTW, I would take a nose heavy TL over a MB anyday. MBs are very good looking but of course are very expensive, super costly to repair and are not nearly as fun to drive as Bimmers, Audis or Infinities. But I guess - given your theme song - that people drive them because they think they are "prestigious?"
I'm not certain it is a fact.
WE -- buy cars we like to drive (of course speaking for you here
A large number of people in my corporate office buy cars that have a good resale, have good reliability, look nice, have a good reputation
The way they drive (which I'm assuming means a well handling vehicle) is further down the list somewhere.
Of course I suppose if the vehicle meets the requirements above (resale, reliability etc)...they'd "Like to drive it"
The 1st gen G20 was also a tossable little sport sedan - something like the 1993-5 era Audi 4000. None of these three were rocket ships but then I don't buy cars for that. I will take tossabilty and usable torque over raw stoplight takeoff power. But that is just me.
On the point that you know people who do buy for resale, I thought that was just Acura drivers.
AWD G25 is rated 19/27mpg
RWD G37 is rated 19/27mpg
AWD G37 is rated 18/25mpg
I'm left :confuse:
Reason why I would not consider MB the next go around is for personal reasons. Their vehicles are very luxurious/nice looking but both the C and E class have gotten way to close to the ground for my taste and I have a really bad back and would break my butt getting in and out of them all the time. Plus, as you pointed out, they are not as fun to drive as Audi's, Infinities, or Bimmers which is a factor for me when driving! Luckily, BMW and Audi have not followed MBs direction of low ground clearance on their sedans and those 3 makes will most likely be the brands I cross shop next time around, maybe Lexus if they can improve upon the IS enough for my liking.
Remember, this generation G is coming to an end hopefully at the end of next year since 2011 is the fifth model year now, and it will be due for a redesign across the board for 2012.
It's my hope that if the G25 sells okay for Infiniti that when they go to redo the 3G G-Sedan they will completely redo/rethink the G25 and add these features and maybe even make a totally different body style for it from the high trim G sedan.
This is just speculation of course though.
http://www.insideline.com/infiniti/g25/2011/2011-infiniti-g25-sedan-first-drive.- - html