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Of course, it's still just another member of the "I paid $2000 to add 250 lbs and subtract 2 MPG" club.
I think that's an unfair characterization. Those buyers simply can't own a RWD car- they need something to drive when it rains...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Ouch!
Wrong as usual sweenytodd!
Actually, what he said was:
"On TSX sales not tanking, i would like to see the numbers."
I think this was a reasonable request - especially in the context of your original statement containing false information (no manual).
Why don't you simply provide a link to your source that shows how strong TSX sales are and put this matter to rest?
BTW - I think this discussion is a good one, but the personal jabs between the two of you are a problem. We are talking about cars here - there's no need to get inflamed.
But for smarty to say the TSX sales not tanking-well again I would like to see the numbers -- wait i went to wiki and here are the facts-
Total American sales
2003[28] 18,932
2004 30,365
2005[29] 34,856
2006 38,035
2007[30] 33,037
2008[30] 31,998
2009 28,650
2009 was when they changed the body style-- I dont think this is a tank job-ALA TL -- so smarty I agree..but acura in general cant be happy with the present momentum of sales. that was easy
(sorry for the long post)
Here is some even better figures then sweens about the TSX: Directly from Acura media released on Oct 1st based on Sept and 2010 sales.
Sept 2010
2,256
Sept 2009
2,103
Percent Change
+7.3%
YTD Sept 2010
22,843
YTD Sept 2009
21,300
Percent Change
+7.7%
Just because they have decreased over the last two years by a few thousand does not mean they are tanking and as I just showed you in a post above, the TSX is higher in sales this year thus far then at this time last year hence a upward rise.
Yeah, your figures really showed how bad the TSX sales have tanked
And here is the figures for the TL to show its decrease in sales and thus poor sales performance, taken from Acura media newsroom.
YTD 2010
25,031
YTD 2009
25,882
YTD - 1.8%
TL 2004 Sales: 77,895
TL 2005 Sales: 78,218
TL 2006 Sales: 72,348
TL 2007 Sales: 58,545
TL 2008 Sales: 48,766
TL 2009 Sales: 33,620
As you can see, the sales decrease in the TL is quite substantial compared to the TSX and hence why I have said tanked for the TL. It is sad considering the TL was Acura's bread and butter model for so many years and that now has changed to the MDX. You can state a whole host of reasons why it dropped but its safe to say that the TSX has been a better success for them then the TL is right now.
decaf bro.
FWIW, IMHO the new TSX is another example of how Honda is going all wrong lately -- bigger, softer, and more tarted up with gadgets. But not better.
Do you work for Acura in California or a local dealership?
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Yeah, I didn't think they fit that well. For instance, lush leather ain't in a C series.
I guarantee that it's not "American" in how it's designed or drives. Probably the only thing that GM has for sale now, in fact, that is like that.
My second recommendation is actually also from GM, but you'd have to get a 2009 model, because GM stopped importing it to the U.S. then. Go test drive a Pontiac G8/Holden Commodore. It's a fantastic vehicle and is no problem to find one for less than 20K, certified. If you want something that handles well, is RWD, has a nice interior, and is a total sleeper/under everyone's radar, while being one size larger than a G37 - without the silly price tag, look no further.
I personally like it more than the current CTS. I'm still incredibly shocked that GM took it's #1 selling passenger car in Australia(and best IMO, that they currently make worldwide) and stopped importing it to the U.S. Such an incredibly idiotic move. But you can get one used. Change the badges if you wish. Note - it's also sold outside the U.S. as the new Chevy Lumina. So at least there's some hope of it returning next year or so.
These two are the only options from GM that will satisfy you if you like how the TL and Infiniti and so on drive. Everything else, yes, it's a toad and should be avoided. But do check these out - you might be able to get a used/certified car and own it for only a little more than the payments on a lease of something like a 3 series.
A4? (new or slightly used)
BMW (slightly used)?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I've considered the A4 or S4 but I've read a lot of bad things about Audi reliability.
As for BMW, I think I'd have to move up the 535i to get the size and features I want, but I don't like the idea of making the payment each month :sick:
The IS350 was a thought but it has no back seat to speak of, among other faults...
And on top of all that, I don't want to buy a used car - I'm looking at a lease because I want to swap this car out every 3 years and not mess with sales....
Hmmmmm...............
You want space...more than an IS...something around a 5 series (if the price was right).
You could almost list all manufacturers and they'd each have an offering in this segment.
You mentioned that you're apprehensive about Audi reliability. Since you lease are you concerned about being stranded and/or inconvenienced with repairs?
I'd take a look at the domestics as well (I actually liked the CTS...coupe looks very nice too)...go drive a CTS, LaCrosse, SHO...even go drive an MKS and see...of course if you 'know' you're not going to buy one then I suppose you're just waisting your time (I was surprised).
If you're not keen on domestics how about the European? C350 is very nice, S60 looks nice (never drove)...might be small if a 5 series is your size requirement.
At this point, for me, I'd lean more towards a new A4 2.0T...does everything well, looks real elegant and has good mileage.
I liked the new TL as well (I also like the looks ) ...it wasn't too large and the SH-AWD let me over-steer the back end out a bit...so that was pleasant. Plus you'd get your space requirements (guess Maxima has similar specs too).
New Infiniti M37?
You may also lean towards the vehicles with the 'included maintenance' as well...
Have you considered the TSX V6 as a possible replacement for your '08 TL-S? It is less than an one-inch +/- in front and rear head, leg and hip room compared to your TL. Overall passenger volume is 94 cu ft vs. 98 cu ft for your TL, so it's only very slightly smaller. Interior cargo (luggage) volume is virtually identical at 12.6 vs. 12.5 cu ft.
The Infiniti G37S is almost identical in every interior measurement (head/leg/hip room) to your TL, with 99 cu ft of passenger volume and 13.5 cu ft cargo volume. So it's not smaller in any way than the TL, but the interior design or other design aspects may may it 'seem' to be...I'd give it another look before ruling it out!
If you are leasing, would the larger Infiniti M37 also be within the realm of possibilities? It has a boost in headroom and legroom in front and rear compared to the TL. Total passener volume is 104 cubic feet and cargo volume is 14.9 cu ft. Not sure if I like it any better than the G37S, but it might be something to consider....
And one other wild card that I will recommend, if a luxury 'brand' isn't esssential and you're just wanting a car that looks and performs in the same realm with most entry-level performance/luxury models- the 2011 Mazda6 s Grand Touring 4-door. The current 2010 is a very impressive vehicle, with exceptional handling and plenty of power any time you need it! The 3.7L V6 only has a 272hp rating, but it has 269lb-ft of torque (matching the torque figures for the 330hp M37 and exceeding all the other cars discussed above, despite their 280-328hp ratings). It also hits that torque peak at 4250rpm, compared to 5200rpm in both Infinitis.
The only two options on the 2010 MZ6 s Grand Touring are Voice-Activated Navigation and the Technology Package. The Tech Package adds Advanced Keyeless Entry & Start with push-button starting, SIRIUS sat radio, LED tail lights, Fully automatic Bi-Xenon HID headlamps, power passenger seat and rain-sensing wipers. With those two options, it is a very close match for the G37S, feature-for-feature but for $6-7k less! The 2011 model is getting a 'refresh' that willl only make the car more attractive and upscale in look and feel. It's worth a visit to the Mazda dealer one day, just to experience the car for yourself. My best friend and I took one for a test drive two weekends ago and he wasn't even in the market for a new car....but he traded his 2008 IS 250 on the spot for it!
I would recommend a Caddy CTS or like other's have mentioned the new Maxima. If your looking for the true sport sedan feel you won't get that completely with the Max due to the CVT/FWD but it definitely has got a more sport oriented handling and power. I ended up with one b/c like you did not want a G37 due to the cramped feeling when in it. The Max has plenty of room, pretty sporty body style, and you get certain features you normally can only get in luxury sedans if you get the premium packages. The leasing and financing for it are excellent and many people are getting fully loaded ones for $34-35k.
If that doesn't fit your bill, I would check out the Genesis but again, some people don't like the Hyundai name plate.
Not sure what budget or finances are for your but if possible, I would check out the new M and 5 Series as well. They are definitely going to fit your bill when it comes to size and features but you will pay more for them obviously.
Best of Luck!!!
I'm not a Mazda fan but I'll take a look at the MZ6 to see what it looks like. I can't see me driving a Benz, though - too much coin for what you get.
So far I'm thinking the Audi A4/S4, G37S and M37 seem the likely suspects... :shades: :shades:
Not really a marketable feature...or even worthy of purchasing it for (since it is very good overall). But a very powerful V6. Rear seat room is HUGE too.
LOVED the manual in the Mazda 6...too bad it only was on the 4cyl
Not much love for the Mazda 6...don't see many.
Same as the VW CC -- don't see many. I actually prefer the CC over many in this thread.
My parents just went through this exact same scenario. And had it down to the same models are you are looking at. And the CTS just simply was a superior product to the Infiniti. The only vehicle that gave it serious competition was the C300, which is my #1 pick if money is no object. It;s everything that you want and Mercedes is apparently finally making their cars right again. Though currently only the C class is benefiting, as will the upcoming model E class(it takes time to re-tool and phase in new technology)
Also, I mentioned the G8 because while 2009 was the last year for it, it had the same suspension and engine as a CTS. It's a worlds better choice than the LaCrosse and actually is fairly attractive by comparison(looks like a cross between the CTS and the LaCrosse, IMO - slightly rounded but not a jellybean.
But let's look at the math on slightly used vs lease:
First off, Infiniti has no financing options currently on 2011 models. (it's impossible to find a 2010 to lease at this point). Fail.
Let's look at Acura, then. Oops. Same deal.
K... Mercedes. Mercedes always runs leases(as does VW and Audi)
C300 $349/month for 27 months. 10K/yr. $3141at signing.
Total at lease end: 12215 in payments. $452.41/month.
(a BMW 328i is $439/month with 0 down at signing for reference)
Let's have some fun, then.
2011 Accord EX. $229 /month for 36 months. $1499 at signing.
Total at lease end: 9743 in payments. $270.64/month.
Now why would I do this comparison? Because to lease any vehicle, you have to factor in what it costs versus a used model that still has the same amount of factory warranty left. 36 months lease vs 36 months(or more) warranty. Now, the main deal here is the drive train, which is pretty much all that matters(most certified cars get an extension anyways and the gremlins have been worked out/fixed. It's basically a wash, IMO, since a 2 year old car won't break anyways unless it's something nasty like a Suzuki or Daewoo.
I did a 2 minute search for a 2009 G8 with low mileage and under $25K.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=279792030
Figure $22K now and $12K in three years. That's $10K for three years. I put the Accord in as a comparison because what this means is that you can get a certified year old vehicle and run it for three years for the same price as an economy car lease.
But there's no wear and tear adjustment, no money factor idiocy or other tricks, no mileage cap or penalty. In short, you can OWN and decide to keep to trade whenever you want for the same price as a lease. The only difference is the payment structure per month. But a 72 month payment plan will usually net (now due to silly low interest rates) about the same monthly payment as a lease. If you want out of it, or to buy it at the end of the "payments", it's a clear win. Keep paying the bank or just sell it and end up with 0 month owed after 36 months.
I get about $350 a month in this scenario vs $450 a month for the Mercedes or BMW.
Note - you can get a 2008 CTS for about ~25K and the money works out the same as the CTS depreciates a bit less - ~15K at 6 years old. The only difference is $400 a month and the same $10K total cost.
Let some other person eat the 10-15K initial depreciation. Never buy new.
Here in UK, the BMW 5's run from £31k for the 523i SE to around £50k for the 550i SE, with lots of diesels. The Cadillac CTS runs from £27k for the 2.8 V6 thro' £30k for the 3.6 V6 to £56k for the 6.2 V8, (though who would buy that beats me). CTS is generally compared unfavourably to BMW/Merc/Jag/Audi due to poor ride/handling, (our roads aren't great), and having no diesel options..............a very big points loser !
Not sure I've ever seen one on the road.
The Mazda 6 runs from £16k for the 1.8 S through to £23k for the 2.2D Sport Estate, (wagon). Gets rated highly, for price, if a tad noisy and there are lots of diesels.
Anyone else have any experience with the A4 turbo? Does the lag improve?
But here in the U.S., yes, it's cheaper than a 5 series by a fair amount especially at the end of the model year, is a bit more reliable, and drives essentially the same. Of course it's now a 3 series competitor, but few things are.
Absolutely correct...............but you do us a dis-service. We have lots of bits of insanity when it comes to cars. Why else would people buy Peugeots or G-Whizz electric death traps ?
Still, with gas at circa $7 per US Gallon equivalent smaller and/or diesel engines are not so much insanity but rather financial imperatives. ULSD is, of course, up to 20 cents more expensive, (but it's the only diesel fuel you can buy for road use).
The CTS was not & is not available with a normally aspirated V8.
The G8 GT [ I have one ] has a n/a 6.0L V8.
I considered the CTS before my purchase -
and the availability of a 6.0L V8 would likely have
pushed my to select the CTS.
The V6 in the CTS [either version] does not provide the TQ
I really want...
- Ray
TQ addict
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
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Still sad that they took such a nice looking vehicle out of their lineup. What we have left for us normal working class people are cartoon cars like the Camaro and Charger when this actually also worked as a perfectly find daily driver/family sedan.
Still, even a base model G8 is a great car if you can't afford a CTS.
FYI: "beemer" refers to a BMW motorcycle, while "bimmer" denotes a BMW automobile.
Just thought you'd want to know.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...
G35:
NHTSA Campaign Number: 02V245000
Potential Number Of Units Affected: 18300
THE FUEL HOSE CONNECTION FOR THE OUTLET OF THE FUEL PUMP MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PROPERLY ATTACHED WHEN THE VEHICLE WAS ASSEMBLED AND COULD COME LOOSE WHILE DRIVING. IF THE CONNECTION COMES LOOSE WHILE DRIVING, THE ENGINE WILL STOP RUNNING DUE TO LACK OF FUEL. ALSO, IF THE CONNECTION COMES LOOSE WHILE DRIVING OR ATTEMPTING TO START OR RESTART THE ENGINE, SOME FUEL WILL DISCHARGE FROM THE FUEL PUMP. IF THIS SHOULD OCCUR IN THE PRESENCE OF AN EXTERNAL IGNITION SOURCE, A FIRE COULD RESULT.
350Z
NHTSA Campaign Number: 03V455000
Potential Number Of Units Affected: 630000
THE CIRCUIT BOARD FOR THE CRANK POSITION SENSOR MAY HAVE AN IMPROPER SOLDER JOINT DUE TO SOLDER DEFORMATION CAUSED BY HEAT STRESS ACCELERATED BY THE EXISTENCE OF FLUX RESIDUE DURING THE SOLDERING PROCESS. THIS COULD CAUSE THE "SERVICE ENGINE SOON" WARNING LIGHT TO COME ON, CREATE A NO START CONDITION, CAUSE REDUCED ENGINE POWER, OR CAUSE THE ENGINE TO STOP RUNNING WITHOUT WARNING DURING VEHICLE OPERATION
And don't forget the big G35 airbag recall to fix airbags that may not deploy in a crash or the current 2+ million worldwide recall for faulty ignitions that may stall the engine.
My G35 has been perfect for over 100K miles, but that doesn't mean I discount the issues that others have had with the same year/make/model.
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The Civic
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD