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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Most excellent advice.
    No one's criticizing your children, your profession, your intellect - they're expressing a different opinion about whether your car is a class leader. Even if you post ONE more time that it sells well, the opinion will continue to differ. I've been around for ages as well, and I have yet to see anyone berated and argued into submitting to another member's opinion - I've seen them respond to fact, but opinion? No.

    The Hyundai Sonata is selling extremely well. Does that make it an ELLPS? No. That fact in no way detracts from the vehicles sales or appeal, but sales numbers do not indicate anything about the car apart from its appeal to consumers. Period.

    Let's avoid turning this discussion, and a very minor point within that discussion, into the Middle East conflict.

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I personally think the Maxima is a nice car. It just isn't an ELLPS and doesn't warrant so much real estate in this forum.

    Maybe you should create a new thread: Maxima vs. LaCrosse vs. Taurus vs. Genesis.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    The good news is that such a thread already exists:
    Mainstream Large Sedans

    It's not been active in awhile, but perhaps, as with many general discussions, it would see new life & activity with an on-topic post to stimulate conversation.

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  • saratoga3saratoga3 Member Posts: 16
    thanks smarty666 for your replies to my Maxima question, you have been very helpful. I feel responsible for this thread turning heated! my only intention was to get some feedback from members here who have shopped for the Max VS the Infiniti, the same as I have been doing.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited January 2011
    That was what I was trying to do in the first place, give you information to try and help make a decision. It basically comes down to this, both vehicles serve two different purposes, one is not vastly superior to the other, it all depends on what your personal situation is and what one fits your needs and driving style better. That is what I made the decision on when I was choosing between the two.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I never saw new Maxima in person. Nissan evidently does not want to participate in autoshows. Last one in San Jose for some reason had Infinitis on display, but not Nissans. I saw Maxima on the road though and it has presence while G looks kind of cartoonish and funny with strange proportions. Anyway Infinity G is spacious inside at least for me, but it is like compact car in back and has smallish trunk - but it has RWD after all. So it is not efficient as a family car.

    Well what I actually wanted to say that I went to Nissan website and took a look. Agree - interior does not look like luxury car but is pleasant enough. The point I want to make is that I compared it with closest competitors - Buick Regal and Lincoln MKZ - all they are similar in every dimensions and purpose. It does not look like competitor to Avalon or Taurus which are larger cars.

    Then I went to truecar.com and configured Maxima with all options and got price around $33,600 in Bay area - almost 6K discount from sticker price. Similarly equipped entry level luxury cars, like A4, MKZ, G37 cost around 36K-37K according to truecar.com. Regal is priced similar to Maxima with 2.0T turbo engine. BTW A4 has engine similar to Buick and MKZ as engine similar to Maxima, but better interior quality. And I guess Buick is to A4 (both are German cars) same as Maxima to G. With exception that it has better exterior design and higher quality interior than Maxima. I would certainly test drive and compare Regal to Maxima, Regal may prove to be more sporty car after all (though Opel never had this kind reputation) and it is certainly more elegant. If you do not like G - CTS is most logical choice - it cost same 36k options but with 3.0L engine. True there is G25 Journey - but it is decontented car, it costs less. BMW is even smaller car than G and Lexus IS is smaller yet.

    I remember comparos where Maxima lost to Dodge Charger in its spoting intentions. Nissan after all is a large FWD car. I drove previous Maxima - it was smaller but no more sporty than base Mustang. I do not know from where sport-sedan notion comes from when people talk about Maxima. People use sport-sedan notion too often. I heard even Sonata called sport sedan which is absolutely ridiculous.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited January 2011
    It is worth noting as well that the CTS is almost as good as a BMW 5 series in hard driving.(that said, 99% of us won't even get to those limits for either car) That base 3.0 is quite nice, and the 3.6 isn't really necessary. The interior as well is almost identical to an Acura or Audi in how well it's thought out and how nice it is. It feels properly luxurious and fits 4 adults quite easily.(though the G37 does that as well, I have to admit). The panoramic sunroof is awesome. And in a first for GM, the NAV system actually works.

    My only gripe with it is that you absolutely need the rear camera option or an aftermarket spoiler because you can't see the rear end while parking.(like the Civic, there are *zero* visual cues). But it's not alone in that, either. The worst offender currently is actually the new Honda Crosstour, which might as well be a utility van when it comes to driver visibility. It also could use something on the hood for the same reason - you kind of expect a Cadillac to have a hood ornament. It's an amazingly easy car to drive fast, but amazingly hard to park.

    Me, I don't parallel park if I can help it, so it's not an issue. Just something to be aware of.

    edit - truecar and cars direct say there are still some 2010 CTS models out there, so you might be able to get one for closer to 30-32K if you don't mind black. (27.5K for a base model(29 with auto), 30K for the Luxury, 32K for the Performance, and 34K for the 3.6) Almost all seem to be black or silver, which is usually what's left over.

    But.. even a base model CTS for ~29K... that makes every other mid-size sedan in the upper 20K range drop off of my radar. Especially the emasculated Regal. Got to love year end fire sales at GM. ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    So, anyone here want to talk about Bimmers again? :blush:
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I'll talk about any of the older "classic" BMWs all day long ;) Not such a fan of the modern plastic and heavy stuff, though the 1 series is thankfully only a little bit over 3000lbs.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    3373 lbs (135)

    Not sure how much weight is added by the options.

    Not light, but being a fat guy in a room with a bunch of morbidly obese people tends to make you look thin :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Well, most folks around here know I'll talk about e30's all day long. Unfortunately, it's not the topic of this thread.

    So, will the 1-series M qualify as the best ELLPS (I know, it's a coupe, but in a 3-box sort of way) on the planet? It's definitely piqued my interest.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The base model with manual is 3208lbs. A little weight trimming and a few aftermarket mods and you're looking at probably 3100lbs without too much expense.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    It's definitely piqued my interest.

    I came very close to ordering a a 2011 128i, optioned to my specs(M Sport Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, Harman-Kardon audio, keyless entry, and xenons). Manual leather seats and no hole in the roof. My dealer was offering $2000 off MSRP. With BMW's $1500 Holiday cash and my $500 CCA rebate I was looking at @$32000+TTL. Good deal, but I kept thinking what I could buy used for similar money, such as a Z4 M Coupe or a Cayman. I'd have the same dilemma with the 1er M Coupe- for $47,000 I can get a CPO E9x M3 or better yet, a pristine 2005 0r 2006 E46 M3 ZCP(and have plenty of cash left over for a Brembo kit, pads, and track tires).

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Or an 06 or 07 CPO Porsche 997...
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Or an 06 or 07 CPO Porsche 997...

    Yeah, that too... ;)

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    As I mentioned several days ago, conversation about this vehicle belongs in Mainstream Large Sedans. You are welcome to continue talking about it there.

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    understood - you missed a bunch of maxima posts from last week..
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    No I didn't - that's what prompted my note earlier this week. You're just a few days behind, that's all. :)

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    i'm behind your right- but 823-827 would have been interesting chatter.. love the new edmunds, nice work with the redu
  • saratoga3saratoga3 Member Posts: 16
    I might get bet up about this here but has anyone considered the G25X instead of the 37X?
    The 25x is about 4k cheaper and if you can do without the xtra HP of the 37x it might be a good way to get into the car new, if you can do without some of the 37's options not available on the 25.You also gain about 2 xtra miles per gallon on the 25.
    Just something I was considering and thought others may have also??
    I say the X because I live in the N East and would want it for the winter.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Well, the biggest problem I have with the G25 is the lack of certain features at its price point that Infiniti decided to charge for it. I think the TSX I4 with tech is a much better option at the same price point plus your getting a nav system in that vehicle. The mpg of the G25 is not really that great considering it is only 1mpg better in city/highway miles compared to a RWD G37. It should be a lot better than 1mpg considering the difference in engines between a G37 and G25.

    Plus, the deals people have been reporting on the G37 and G25 are not that much different from one another. The G37 is not that much more per month and your getting a heck of a lot more car for the money with the G37 then you are with the G25.

    The G25 basically serves the purpose of getting people into the Infiniti brand without too much bells and whistles about it. I still fee the G37 is a much better buy over the G25, obviously for the sport enthusiast as well.
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    I don't understand why my post was censored. I quoted right from Edmond's page that the NM was worthy of comparison. The discussion was interesting and informative to any one looking at a ELLPS. It ran it's course and the thread will move on. Looking beyond the box never hurt anyone when shopping for a vehicle. I thought Edmonds was better than this

    I just saw Motor trend uses as a gauge the snobbery factor to judge as in the G25 article linked here. Are we dealing with that here?

    I frequent the "Toyota on the mend" thread and all topics are allowed to be discussed over there, I guess that's where I'm coming from. Maybe a different moderator?

    Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, something I fought for.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited January 2011
    Like it or don't, believe it or not, you have absolutely zero right to "free speech" on any and every private forum, this one included.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, something I fought for.

    The First Amendment does not apply to private internet forums. Start your own board if you want to discuss anything you like- that's what a bunch of us did almost one decade ago...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    If you can live without the extra options that the 37 offers, then by all means, take the 25. Considering that there's virtually NO difference between the cars besides the badges and the engines (same suspension, brakes, steering, and interior appointments), and driving impressions seem to be positive despite the lower HP, it's a good deal to get into an Infiniti instead of settling for a FWD TSX IMO.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    edited January 2011
    This is entirely accurate. A simple reading of the Constitution, rather than a re-phrasing of what one believes it to say, will provide illumination. Freedom of speech allows you the liberty to say whatever you want, without at the same time obligating ANYONE to provide you with a venue in which to say it.

    However, anyone who is truly committed to changing this can take the first step with me - We can drop by your friend's or relative's house (better yet... the boss!), stone drunk, with my accordion, and sit on their porch singing show tunes all night to proclaim our newly-defined right to Freedom of Speech. :)

    I joke, but the fact is that our topic-oriented discussions are just that. We allow you to discuss any vehicle-related topic that might be of interest - we just require that you do so in a discussion about that vehicle. New and old members alike should have some reasonable expectation that the majority of conversation centers around the topic in the discussion title, and/or around the vehicles listed in the discussion header. Some of the discussions in Auto News are looser and more fluid. Sedans discussions are vehicle(s)-specific.

    I have, at least twice, pointed to a perfectly good discussion to talk about the Maxima (plus there are Maxima-specific discussions). No reason that conversation can't be continued there, unless of course there's not enough interest, which would mean there's... just not enough interest in general. It's pretty clear that the Maxima does not, at this time, qualify as an ELLPS.

    And of course you are perfectly allowed to start your own message board - not every Forum style suits every person, and there is no One True Forum. Lots of people frequent a variety of fora, on a variety of topics. That's cool. Hey, we even started an Off-Topic board a few years ago, recognizing that sometimes people just want to chat about stuff other than cars. I think we've actually become more flexible over the past few years... who'd have thought we'd be swapping recipes, book and movie recommendations, political views, and travel ideas on a car site?

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  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I considered it too and found out that in real world G37 costs slightly more than G25 (like may 36K vs 33K). Its up to you what do you prefer, but if you are going to shell out 30 grands anyway does couple of grands make any difference? My only problem with G is that it is tight inside and looks cartoonish and misproportioned at the same time. But I am going to compare it to Regal 2.0T anyway. Acura ugliness keeps me away from it. Regal is European car and may be unreliable, thats my concern. What else. Volvo S60 - good reviews but even tighter than G and overpriced and I did not like interior, and not good reliability record either. I commute a lot so miles pile up quickly and if my car keeps breaking down often it is not okay, so CC and A4 go out of window too. Japanese better outsource designs to California studious otherwise there is almost nothing to consider.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2011
    Wow, there are so many things in your post that I either don't agree with or just don't understand.

    G is tight inside? You do know this is the ELLPS thread, right? All of these sedans are small. If you need space, you should be shopping in another segment.

    Regal a European car? Sort of. The Buick Regal is the American version of the Opel Insignia, which is built by Opel, a GM owned company. There are lots of fine "European" American cars (Holden Commodore, Ford Mondeo, Vauxhall Monaro, Opel Vectra), but to imply they might be unreliable because they are European is just ridiculous.

    Volvo S60 small and unreliable? Again, what's all this "unreliable European car" talk? I have owned many European cars over the years and didn't find them any more or less reliable than any other car. And how does the S60 have a poor reliability record when this is the first model year? And again, why do you think the S60 is tight? You do know Volvo also has something called the S80 for people who want more space, right?

    CC and A4 out the window too? Really, I assume they break down too much also?

    Japanese cars need California design? So, the G37 is ugly and so is the TL and TSX I assume?

    You do realize that you've eliminated every car in this discussion thread, right? May I suggest you start a new thread entitled, "ELLPS BRAG" (Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans that are Big Reliable And Good-looking).
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I am sorry but I expressed my opinion, you can disagree with me and be entitled to your own, but I will spend my hard earned money as I find appropriate and will buy whatever fits best my budget, tastes and requirement no matter what other people think about it.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2011
    I don't think there's anything wrong with your taste, requirements, etc. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I do doubt your reliability claims have any basis in fact, but hey, whatever...

    Here's what I don't understand. I don't like pickup trucks, so I don't bother visiting any truck forums here. Never have. Why would I? Just to tell people I don't like trucks? You don't like cars that are small, ugly, and/or European.

    OK, thanks for visiting.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited January 2011
    Here's what I don't understand. I don't like pickup trucks, so I don't bother visiting any truck forums here. Never have. Why would I? Just to tell people I don't like trucks?

    I wrote this in another forum with respect to BMWs, but I think it addresses the situation here as well:

    I have a Jeep TJ and I never post snotty comments on the Hummer or Land Rover boards. My TJ does what I want it to do and I don't need to justify my choice. Ditto for my Mazdaspeed3. I leave the guys in the GTI, MCS, Si, and WRX boards to their own devices. Again, why bother them? And as for my X3 and 3er, I feel no compulsion whatsoever to troll the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, or MB boards. What's the point? The same goes for my Speed Triple. However, there always seems to be a few non-BMW owners who just have to yell "Mine's bigger!" in the Bimmer topics.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    i'm an owner of a new body g35x (not 37) and at the time they announced the g25 i was excited but since reading the stat lines on the car -mpg, performance, HP, and lack of manual it kind of confuses me a bit- I mean they should of put a turbo 4 in the car with stick 250 hp for that price -- or give it a v4/v6 that gets 30 mpg, for me this is a good looking car-- it turns and breaks well- the base 3 series has more hp and if you can find a base one with a 6speed it sounds like a better deal-- plus with the manual your looking at more power and more fun while in the same price range.

    i also think the selective editing gets old certainly when good points are being made- like why is the TSX in this category again but the Max is not?? same price range and fwd only difference is Acura vs Nissan nameplate.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Well, most of the time, we go on manufacturer specification. They call it a midsize sedan? OK, we do too. They call it a large sedan? We do too.

    I think you might find the conversation in our mainstream large sedans discussion interesting, as the interior measurements of the Maxima are smaller than the Altima. Would love your perspective there.

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    edited January 2011
    Personally, I think the G25 is being targeted at IS250 buyers - namely, young upwardly mobile females looking to enter the "luxury" market. These buyers don't care about HP or manual transmissions. They're looking for styling and amenities.

    The TSX belongs here because, with the 6MT at least, it is arguably one of the sportiest, most fun-to-drive cars in this category. I actually think it epitomizes the ELLPS segment right now. If you've never driven it, you just cannot imagine how the numbers don't tell the story of how the sum is greater than the parts. I have driven very few cars where every part is in harmony with every other part. The engine, transmission, steering, switchgear, green house - it's just a joy to spend time with. It's not without faults, of course, but they disappear once you're rolling. It's like a symphony - seriously. I'll always remember mine as one of my favorites.
  • saratoga3saratoga3 Member Posts: 16
    i am concerned with the G37 tranny issue, and from what I have been reading the G25 is not having these problems., that's why I was considering the 25. Also, my other option is a CPO G35X, since they don't have the 7 speed tranny.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    belongs here despite the fact that it is FWD (or as many call it, Wrong Wheel Drive). I thought the total package was much better overall than the MINI Cooper S (6MT) I test drove before it. I love how the suspension is tuned. I'm a die hard manual transmission guy & actually really like the way our TSX's automatic performs. Upshifts are smooth & crisp. Downshifts come when you want them too. Driving in M mode, the transmission WILL NOT upshift at the redline unless you select the next gear. It is also the most ENTRY LEVEL of the ELLPS. You can seriously own a TSX Tech for under $30K. Nobody else in this segment can touch that price.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    ... the Saab 9-5? Is that considered a ELLPS?

    Personally, I'm not a big fan of them, but the upcoming 9-5 SportCombi is actually a decent-looking wagon.

    image

    IMO it's better-looking than the TSX wagon.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    one of those bad boys loaded up is well over $50K. That is NOT entry level by any sense of this board.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    What exactly is the price ceiling then?

    Consider:

    A BMW 335i xDrive with options exceeds $55K.
    An Audi A4 can exceed $51K.
    A C-class (non-AMG) can also exceed $51K.

    Granted, the base price starts higher than the others (at $38,525, according to their website) but it's relatively well-equipped.
  • moonsky1moonsky1 Member Posts: 15
    To me, the price ceiling would be $45K for a car equipped with typical options and navigation system for a luxury car. You know, leather, moonroof, xenon, heated seats, climate control, upgraded audio, auto-dimming mirrors, power seat and memory, those kind of things. So most Japanese ones qualify even if it's G37 or IS350, but not the German ones because they are too expensive. I would consider 9-5 to be in this segment too.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Also isn't the entry level car in the Saab lineup, that would be the 9-3. I'll have to check, but I think the 9-5 competes with the 5 series & E class.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    +1

    9-5 is too big and not entry-level.
  • moonsky1moonsky1 Member Posts: 15
    Agree. Didn't know that it's almost as long as a Caravan. (Slight exaggeration, but it's definitely way bigger than any car in this category)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    carguy and lawman.. the TSX i think its a great car for the money but luxury and performance are key factors to consider-- this is the same car sold overseas as the accord - they put leather and chrome in the car here and call it an acura-- msrp ranges from 30k to 39k (yes for a tsx with nav and a V6) and with deals i'm sure you can get a 6speed manual for around 28k which is a great price for a car like this. I have not driven the new tsx but the last generation with the best manual on the planet was a joy - but performance in the current model do not match prev generations as this car has become a little bloated. The base sonada comes with 200 hp and you can get a 275hp turbo 4 for 25k that gets 33mpg highway- you would love to see acura "advance" a bit before the whole line becomes saab or volvo.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    couldn't agree with you more about the TSX and Acura as a whole!

    I do have to say that of the current Acura line-up, the TSX is the only vehicle I could see getting and the only one that I could tolerate the shield grill on. Let's hope Acura gets rid of that styling choice in the next generations of their vehicles!
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited January 2011
    . . .but the last generation with the best manual on the planet was a joy. . .

    Still is for me -- the TSX manual is really fine. If the car put the power down via the rear wheels and had a 2 or 2.5 litre diesel I'd keep it until they put me in a home.

    As it is, I still haven't seen anything I like enough better to go for it. A Jetta or Golf TDI are possibilities, but I really enjoy the stone solid reliability of a Honda product.

    The transmission clicks nicely into each gear and is certainly the best one I've used since my MGB. Even though the B's tansmission lacked a synchronized first gear, the linkage had absolutely zero play in it and sat right on top of the transmission -- good times. The two Miatas and the 240Z I drove many miles had lots of good features, but the transmissions weren't the equal of the TSX or the B.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    the honda product reliability cant argue with that- and good to hear they didnt fuss with the tranny. Rare manual transmission driver, good job
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    While the TSX V6 with Tech does go into the far reaches of the upper $30K range, they don't sell well & Acura puts big incentives on them to sell. The majority of TSXs out there are 4cyl.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited January 2011
    i'm sure thats the case with the 6 --. Acura should invest some money in the line- drop the 6 , clean up the grill, make a coupe?, and throw another 50 plus HP (or more) into a turbo 4, how about a 6speed auto. while keeping weight down..right now its a 4cyl pulling 3500 lbs with just 200hp and 170lbs.. might be nice to sit in but its not a performer in its current form (certainly if ordered with an 5 speed auto). sorry edmunds this current car does not meet ELLPS no matter what acura says on its press releases.
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