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Rejecting a BMW because you don't like the tires is akin to rejecting a Porsche because the windows aren't tinted dark enough.
And while it's true Porsche's don't have run-flats, it's also true that 911's (and Boxsters & Caymans) don't come with a spare tire. Off topic, but I thought you should know that there are 100's of thousands of drivers buying cars in North America without a spare tire (no, not just Porsche's - Chevy does it too).
Lateral? Ya think? 326 hp in my dd would be nice, but I have trouble keeping my two 200 horsepower 4cyl cars under 90;)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Well, of course it's not lateral in terms of HP, but in terms of refinement, balance, and poise, it certainly is (arguably a step down).
Of course, HP was never my first priority anyways - I mean, I do drive a 4-cylinder too...
On the other hand, the TSX and Prelude are kissing cousins. Maybe you're looking for something completely different? I can understand that.
Well, good luck with whatever you decide to do. I've pretty much decided that my next car will be a 911. Just waiting for the right time and car to come along.
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I never had a car with run flats and I don't think I ever will until there are substantial improvements in them.
Some people really like them so that's what is nice about these forums. Everyone can list the pros and cons and one can make their own decision.
One is a large front wheel drive sofa on wheels that is trying to be a better Buick (and largely succeeding as well, I have to admit)
One is a small luxury sedan that's extremely understated. A sleeper designed for people who really don't want to show off their money.
One is a blinged-out rear wheel drive muscle car. A luxury 370Z to be exact.
They all are great vehicles by themselves, but they also are completely different at heart. Honestly I need more information from the original poster because as it is, there is no real connection between the three besides price. Do you want luxury and refinement? Speed and power? A mix of the two? Do you want manual? What about size and weight?
For example, if you wanted a luxury barge, then you should be looking at the TL, something from Lexus, or possibly a larger Buick or Cadillac. There's nothing wrong with wanting that (my current car is one - I hate small cars in Los Angeles traffic)
If you want smaller and sporty, the G37, the CTS, and the 3 series all come to mind as top choices.
If you want refined luxury, the Mercedes, Audi, and the Lexus IS(or possibly the GS) are top choices.
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IS - The Toyota driving experience is just really bad for me. Terribly numb, bloaty, wallowey. Haven't driven an IS but the styling, like most Japanese cars is derivative. It yells "Me too." I understand it will be sporty but the Toyota roots are there. I've owned two Toyotas. Will not buy a third.
TSX - Wow where did Acura take such a wrong turn with styling? Just uncomfortable to look at. Nutty smiley face and weird rear end. What are they thinking? Cringeworthy. Acura never was that great at style. They've completely gone off the deep end. And Honda used be run by the engineers. Too bad.
A4 - good car and I could get a huge discount, better than employee's due the company I work for. Wanted to love this car. Thought it would be the one. Even got the discount all lined up. Interior has slipped a bit for Audi. Good car, but not much of an upgrade over the Passat I have. Actually like the Passat more - inside and out. The Audi has a couple of cool features, best styling but driving it just didn't do anything for us. Also I've heard a lot about the repairs especially the turbo, e.g,, "cripplingly expensive."
BMW - We drove the 330 and just don't get it. Distinctly downscale interior, drove fairly well. Honestly on this one I'll take a mulligan. I will allow that it is probably a great car, it wouldn't get all the accolades otherwise. For now neither my wife nor I get it. Just at a loss on this one.
CTS - Looks ok. Interior good. Doesn't get good reviews. Just don't trust this car to be reliable, and stand the test of time in styling.
S60 - I would be interested in a Volvo before Ford bought them. Now just like Jag, and the other PAG cars they have Ford parts running through them. Platforms, switchgear, engines. Like Saab and GM. You're buying a lot of Ford at an Volvo price. I like Ford... but at Ford prices. Also heard resale is bad as well as reliability.
C-class - we ordered the C-350. Drove this vehicle and within literally seconds I knew it was something different. Easily the best car I've ever driven. In every way, the sounds it makes, the way it feels, the way it takes corners, everything felt perfect. My wife felt the same way. Way better than the Audi or Bimmer. I know it sounds implausible but it the difference is stark. The price is on up there but I'm at a stage in my life where I can swing it. We even drove the E-class but since my wife will be the primary driver, the C is best for her, easy to handle and toss around, more fun to drive, etc. Only concern is the German electronics after 5 or 10 years.
S60: ford parts? I don't know who told you that, but it is not true. The only thing ford/Volvo shared were basic platforms, and even those were not "ford products" since they were jointly developed. There are no shared engines at all. Volvo always continued making their cars in Sweden with their own engineering. Under their new Chinese owners, that continues to be the case for now, too.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
As far as the Volvo goes: trim pieces, steering wheel, tires, wheels, seats, some emissions parts, etc. The may not be interchangeable but the same company makes parts for both. And while I agree that much may be substantially different, one cheap turn signal stalk is a real turn off. Resale value is said to be terrible, so used are a great deal.
The C class feels like a half-sized S class. And the difference is more stark if you just do something as simple as let a new TSX and a C idle next to each other. One sounds like it is made out of tin cans by comparison. Now, the Honda *is* a great engine, but it lacks that polished sound and feel that you'd get in, say, a Porsche or other high end car. It's exactly like thinking that your American made Fender Stratocaster is a great guitar (which it is) and then getting your hands on a true custom guitar. The goalposts simply moved without you realizing it, and now you're a bit ruined in your expectations.
For the price, especially with year-end rebates, the C is becoming a very good deal.
The other car that impresses me is the CTS. Reliability is excellent as far as I can tell, aside from the yahoos who break their CTS-V models' engines and rear diffs and then blame it on the manufacturer. My father has one and it sounds and drives 2-3 times better than any other GM car that he's ever had or driven.
The IS and TSX and the rest simply feel dated.
Is the body changed for 2012? Was it custom ordered? When do you get it?
I ordered it with what I wanted. Not many options actually. The C-350 is pretty loaded to start with. I added keylessGO and 18" AMG Rims.
It's supposed to start production in the first "decade" (10 days) of October and be delivered in early November.
You stated the A4 interior has slipped, how so? Since all mag's have ranked the interior of the A4 has best in class for the last 5 years, the fit and finish is above that of BMW and MB.
I almost got a A4 but the BMW made a much better deal for me, so I bought a 2011 BMW 328i with
6spd manuel
value package
Le Mans Blue Metalic
Chest Nut Brown leather
M sport package (it comes with the color)
Moon roof
Xenon headlights
Comfort Access keyless entry
paid $39K out the door.
I looked at MB, but the price for a C300 but MG does not offer a sport package (one os standard on the C300 but its only an apparence package) on its entry level C class. Plus the local MB dealer wasn't really dealing, which wasn't a smarl move since the 2012 is a new C class.
I'm very happy with my car, it handles well, its comfortable, and I love the manuel in the car. My next BMW will be a used 335d, I can't justify the price of a new one.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
My 2010 TSX is 2 years old and has almost 40,000 miles. While I don't have all the paperwork in front of me, here's what I've done from memory:
Synthetic Oil changes at 5K, 10K, 20K, 30K, & (almost) 40K @ $70 a piece at the dealership.
Tire Rotations at the same intervals @ $30 a piece
I had to have the rear brake pads replaced & the front rotors resurfaced & cut.
I just had the air filter & cabin filter changed @ $149.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Yes, there is no TSX in Japan. It's sold as the Accord over there. They ship the same car over here and slap an Acura badge on it and add a lot of markup.
What we get as the "Accord" over here is actually an in-between model that they've never sold in the U.S. before. It's called the Inspire in Japan.
It's also why the TSX simply doesn't belong in this discussion, as well. It's kind of like how Cadillac tried to push the Catera as a luxury car years ago when it really was a compact commuter box with some bling and badges added.
For those of us that like to argue in circles...
We could easily argue why Kia and VW should be 'ahead' of many of these.
Of course this always touches on raw emotions...your car is not good enough...it's a chick car...which borders on 'mother' comments
Their price tags were remarkably similar. I know underneath my TSX sits on the Accord platform and is sold in Europe as an Accord.
Besides the V6 Accord's extra "punch," I prefered everything about the TSX. The suspension tuning is sportier on the TSX. My TSX has thicker anti-roll bars. The seats are comfortable and very thickly bolstered. It drives like a 4 door version of my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH. For a FWD platform, they did a damn good job. Is it a 3 series? No? Did I like it better than the A4 2.0T w/ Quattro I drove? Yes. Does it belong in this discussion? Absolutely.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
We like everything else. I sort of understand the Bimmer, it's kind of glued to the ground but it just felt heavier where the MB felt spry, light on it's feet, but very direct-able and responsive. The Bimmer didn't fell any faster and I drove it fast on traffic circles, etc.
The BMW interior was just not good at all. The dash alone took it right off our list. What are they thinking with respect to competition? So dated. I will give the A4 this - its interior was better than the BMW's but the driving feel and interior did not flow.
I recall the Audi's interiors easily being industry leading from the early 90s until the early 2000s. Don't know what happened but the interior now reminds me of mid-90s VW which was pretty nice but Audi's are not what they used to be. There's no art to them.
BTW, the sport package on the MB includes a lowered suspension and a stiffer suspension. Not much else except as you note styling. But the styling is youthful. Nearly all the sell are the sport version. The salesman said they don't even order the C in the luxury version. Same with the E-class.
Glad to hear your happy with your Bimmer. They're are many BMWs in my neighborhood, lot of men and women have them. Only a couple of MBs. I think the crowd in their 30s like the image BMW portrays. Certainly more younger that MB. Styling is good on many models. No problem with that. I like German car handling and design intent. I say buy whatever turns your crank!
BMWs appeal to a sportier driving populace that cares less about handbag hooks than they do about performance on a twisty road.
It's a grey area with me.
When I see "Entry level Luxury Performance Sedan" I don't automatically think of the lowest model that a manufacturer offers.
So I'd say No to the TSX, IS250, G25, etc...the TL would be the representative for Acura's 'entry level', the IS350 would represent Lexus, G37 etc...
I don't recall...is there a price cap? Otherwise would the Panamera be the 'entry level'...
Next year we are ordering a 535i and doing the European Delivery so we can enjoy the car in the motherland.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The CPO BMW is an excellent deal 6yr or 100K with free maintence can't beat it.
If Infiniti really wanted to go after BMW they would copy BMW play book, which is offer your entry level G with a sport package and 6 spd manuel...
I was most hopeful going in about the IS from Lexus but found the car to be an exact duplicate of my current corolla from 2005. I hit my head on the roof while driving (I'm only 6ft tall) and i'm a big guy but the cabin felt cramped. Every time I talked to the salesman he acted like I was making a mistake not buying a bigger car. Do no salesman just listen to what you're saying about preference? That car is now off the list and will remain there.
I drove the G37 and thought it was a very nice car. It felt "classy" inside and, I guess sterile is the word that comes to mind. I actually liked it and liked that it was a bit bigger in the backseat than most in this group. I hate the idea that driving a small car means you can't drive more than 2 adults around. It was about $35 fully loaded with the backup camera and nav and awd, which is cheaper than the competitors. I didn't like the salesman (and his pushiness) but that won't totally sway my decision. I think it drove ok although not as well as the Audi, BMW or the MB. Additionally my mechanic loves these cars and says they are the most reliable. I'm a bit unsure still though because I don't want Nissan parts in my luxury car. Its still on the list. If I can't justify the extra $5k or so then I'll end up in G37 if I had to guess.
I drove the A4 next and really liked the experience. I take some confidence in the fact that they have been doing AWD longer than anyone else. I also like they seem to think about what you'd like to be able to see which you're driving without having to jump through hoops. I thought their Nav was more intuitive than the others I saw. The ride was also smooth and fluid but I didn't really get to open it up due to the traffic and the flooding around me. I am probably going to retry the test drive at another dealership to get a different experience. My concerns were that I have no idea whether you can negotiate a price on these (it was listed as $42ish for the model I'd want), the back seat looked really small and I was surprised at how wide the car was. For the "small" car of the group they seem to be wide. I don't want to end up driving my wife's Altima (which looks puffy) instead of a small luxury car....I definitely would put them at the top of my choice so far though, unfortunately if it was that clear cut I wouldn't be asking for input from you fine folks.
The last car I drove, which I may drive again, is the C300. I didn't have this on my list at all as I had heard terrible things about MB over the last few years in regards to reliability and design. I wanted to try the car however as most who I know who've tried it mentioned that it was much better at "hiding" the bumps in the road which is a big deal in North jersey. As I mentioned in my first post if I wanted to feel every bump in the road I would just buy another Toyota. In the smaller car segment you feel everything in most cars (which I hate) even though I will only drive a small car. I thought the car was very nice. As nice as the Audi in my experience and I thought there was a very "expensive" feel to the drive. I didn't significantly notice the "cloud" feeling while driving but i think that had to do with expectations versus results. They are adding a blue color in 12 that I want to see because that may put this ahead. Again though the cost may be prohibitive....we'll see.
I'd really love anyone's input into what decisions you made and why on these models. I will probably be making a decision over the next month or so.
The Infinitis seem to be the most reliable. All 3 handle well. I don't like the BMWs interior since it seems dated. The Audi and G have a cleaner looking interior. I don't care for the run flat tires on the BMW but some like them. The deals are better on the Infinitis now unless you currently own a BMW or Audi and qualify for a loyalty incentive. Love the size and exteriors of all 3.
I own 2 G35s now and the back seats do not fold down which is a negative. The BMW does not fold down unless you pay for a $400 option for the folding seat.
That is why I am probably buying an Infiniti EX 35 AWD. The EX is actually 5 inches shorter than a G37 so some describe it as a combination of a crossover and a coupe. It has the reliablity, performance, handling, good looks, and the ability to haul a bit, albeit a small amount but way more than the G37. The ability to fold down the seats in the EX is huge with me.
Some reviewers felt that the EX had a smoother ride than the G37.
There is also a $2,000 incentive on the EX so it may be the least expensive of the bunch.
When you test drive the right car you will hopefully know it as I did. The EX just felt the best although it may not be considered a sedan by some but an argument can be made that it is.
Actually my favorite handling car was the BMW 328xi sport wagon (E91) but the interior was very unattractive and really dated. This clearly is not a sedan though but I liked the storage, utility, smallish size and again handling.
Good luck with your search.
to test drive a CTS.
Reading between the lines in addition to
what you've written here, the CTS may
be more to your liking.
Just my 0.2 gallons worth of advice...
- Ray
Picking up a new 3 series on Friday...
The IS has the same problem in that it shows its Corolla DNA all too well.
The G37 as well can't hide the fact that it's a pimped-out 370Z.
I'd also recommend taking a serious look at the CTS. It's one of two vehicles that GM makes that are world-class. The rest? Yes, it's typical bean-counting GM idiocy and blandness. I'd not recommend anything else they build. (the other vehicle is sold in Australia, unfortunately).
Pros:
Cost to repair is less than the European models. About the same as the imports, which have crept up in price without most people noticing.
Ride is designed with U.S. drivers and roads in mind.(note - avoid the performance model as the tires are lower profile than necessary) It's a bit stiff as expected, but handles long road trips without any faults.
The interior is very nice. Who knew GM could actually make an interior that didn't suck? The NAV system is actually very good. Comparing the NAV system in the Mercedes to the CTS is like comparing a TV dinner to real food. The CTS? It just works.
Headroom and overall space is good. One thing about it that's great is that it's actually the same wheelbase size as a E class or 5 series, but the sheet metal is artfully done in such a way that it hides its size and looks a bit smaller.
And as a bonus, it doesn't look like everyone else's jellybean. Honestly, you can't tell a G37 from a Hyundai from a Mazda from two blocks away.
That CTS drives well, too.
Having been through this test several months ago, I'm probably going to go against the grain. I drove both a C300 and a C350. Really, nothing special on either.....especially for the price. I'd much prefer an A4, or an Acura TL SH AWD, or a BMW over the Benz. E class wasn't bad. But, dang......$60K for a little more sheet metal? No thanks! The C class was overpriced enough, the E class even more. They aren't bad cars.....just nothing I'd consider.
If you want driver's cars, probably stick to the BMW, Audi, Acura, even the Infiniti.
All the above cars are built well with great materials.
However, if I were serious about a Benz, I'd probably look at the CTS, as it more closely resembles driving a Benz, but with a lot more style.