Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ivan_99 · September 2011

Look at high school football teams

even younger...as my trim 90 lbs 8 year old leaves bodies in his wake...just an opening for dad to brag

andres3 · September 2011

because almost every car these days can be had with leather and NAV, and so you have to look further and be a bit more discerning in what exactly "luxury" means aside from leather and a high price tag.

Not all leathers and NAV systems were created equal. You can have grade A leather, grade b, grade C, grade D, grade F.

The way it is put together, installed, and assmebled can vary in quality as well as the material itself.

I thought the Infiniti's I looked at in 2009 were very nice inside.

flightnurse · September 2011

The TL is a great car to commute in, but if you are looking for a car with soul, the Acrua line (except for the NSX) is a company to avoid. The TL really doesn't have much competition since its front wheel drive it isn't taken are seriously as a sport sedan as the BMW. Audi's handle well in quattro form but not so well in FWD version.

billyperksii · September 2011

He did not say the G was not a Sports Sedan- he simply said the interior was too small for his liking. I felt the same way too when I test drove it, the size and the intrusive engine noise made me gave keys back to the salesman in a twinkle of the eye.

plekto · September 2011

And then you test drove the C class or a BMW.

Huge difference. Quiet, refined, and what you want in terms of proper luxury.

The main reason Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus all come off as trying too hard and a bit plain vanilla is because in Japan, they don't really exist. There is Honda. Period. There is Nissan. End of choices. Toyota just recently stsrted selling Lexus over there, but for almost two decades, it was simply another model of Toyota.

Mercedes, they make luxury cars and that's it aside from a few military vehicles and their commercial truck line. It's not a standard vehicle that's been tweaked and had a lot of bling added. It's the real deal. BMW is the same. And Audi, though they are a lot like VW in some ways, has always been its own company and own engineering. A lot like say, Cadillac - there has been some overlap from time to time with the lower end models, but it's always been its own company/line.

Acura does nothing for me. In fact, Volvo makes better cars these days. (very nice, in fact, and off of most people's radar here) Infiniti has their highest-end large car, which is good, and proper luxury, but it's also huge and basically like a big Lexus in how it drives. And, lastly, Lexus. Very nice, but still so devoid of soul and personality that it screams "safe vanilla choice".

fedlawman · September 2011

"That said, the TSX simply doesn't belong as it's just a plain vanilla "Accord" to the rest of the world. Over here, they slap Acura badges on it and raise the price. It's front wheel drive, has a plain vanilla 4 cylinder engine, and the handling is, well, standard family car. It's a NICE car, but it's not proper luxury OR proper sports."

The American Accord is creamy vanilla. The Accord of the "rest of the world" (our TSX) is far from it. Your comments make it obvious that you have never actually driven a TSX 6MT at speed.

Around town during a test drive, yes, it might resemble a smaller tighter Accord at first glance, but on a racetrack, there is no comparison. Take it from someone who knows first hand, the TSX is a responsive, dynamic, fun-to-drive sport sedan. Period.

smarty666 · September 2011

You do realize that vehicles from the 5-Series below and E-Class below are not even considered luxury over in Europe? I suppose not. Hate to break it to you, Caddy has never been it own company/line. It has and always will be a luxury division/line of a larger company, just like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and Audi are. I do agree with your comments about Lexus though being a "safe vanilla choice". Mercedes Benz is another "safe vanilla choice" and neither Lexus nor MB has ever done anything to knock my socks off. They both are devoid of soul and fun.

But Infiniti is no way a safe vanilla choice by any stretch of the imagination. That just goes to show you really need to test drive the vehicles you put down. It is quite sad that you limit yourself to the overpriced, poorer reliability of BMW and MB as your only options as true luxury vehicles.

nyccarguy · September 2011

I agree with you 100% fedlawman. Even though my 2010 TSX is equipped with an automatic, it is the best automatic I've ever driven. It holds shifts in M(anual) mode until I (the driver) flicks the paddle on the right for it to upshift. Even in S(port) mode, as long as my foot is planted, the revs will keep climbing to the redline before the transmission upshifts.

I've heard the TSX with a 6-speed stick is an absolute blast to drive. We've already got one car in our fleet that my wife cannot drive (my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH). When we bought the Acura, it was supposed to be her car (replacing our dearly loved 2007 BMW X3). Since we found out child #3 is on her way, we bought my wife a Pilot & I inherited the TSX.

Is my TSX perfect? No. Like our resident 1st generation TSX owner says "the wrong wheels are driving the car.". I don't like the electric power steering.

Those who say it is "just a rebadged Accord" need to drive the 2 cars back to back.

nyccarguy · September 2011

Back in 2009 I drove an Accord EX-L w/ NAV & a TSX w/ Tech Pkg. Both had almost identical sticker prices. While the Accord's V6 had "more punch," the TSX's I4 was much smoother. The suspension is tuned much more taut in the TSX. The TSX has stiffer anti-roll bars.

It is definitely a car you have to drive to appreciate.

I'm not saying the TL isn't more of a driver's car with it's 305 hp V6 & SH AWD. It's price of admission is significantly higher than the TSX. It also didn't meet the gas mileage requirements of the cash 4 clunkers program.

For the record, I dig "the beak."

sweendogy · September 2011

"Infiniti has their highest-end large car, which is good, and proper luxury, but it's also huge and basically like a big Lexus in how it drives."

dude you've never driven a M37, M50 or the M37 hybrid with that statement- Or maybe you've never driven the big lexus-- which i guess your talking about the LS. Totally different cars- you should try them.

"The main reason Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus all come off as trying too hard and a bit plain vanilla is because in Japan, they don't really exist." trying to hard?? what are you saying here?? hello- all 3 of these brands have been around for 20 years.. they have sold millions of cars and have huge amounts of brand cred across the world.

plekto · September 2011

You do realize that vehicles from the 5-Series below and E-Class below are not even considered luxury over in Europe?

Absolutely. What's amazing is that we consider an Accord with a fancy badge on it and some upgraded suspension parts to be luxury over here. Now, to be fair, a lot of that is because they are a bit jaded over there, but you'd figure that the minimum standard would at least be something like a 5 series or similar in the U.S. Not re-badged Accords and Buicks and the like.

Perhaps we've been driving crap for so long over here that we now consider above average to be fantastic. The TSX might be great to a lot of people, but they are simply unaware. To consider it a "luxury sport sedan", well it fails on both accounts. Front wheel drive, underpowered for its weight unless you get the V6, dead steering feel, and, well, the list goes on and on. If you consider it to be awesome luxury, well, more power to you.

As for trying to find a "luxury sport sedan", well, my take on it is that nobody makes one any more. They now all make large luxury cars with a sporty suspension and needlessly large tires to compensate.

Here's a challenge:
Find me a car with 2 or 4 doors. If 2 doors, it must have a usable back seat. No, the 911 does not qualify, obviously.
It must be rear wheel drive.
It must be under 3000lbs.
It must be sporty. Not rims and some spoiler but really upgraded.

And that's before we add the luxury requirement to the mix.

Can anyone here find one? Really. Maybe I forgot some vehicle or something? Everything I find is front wheel drive or hundreds of pounds heavier. Even raising the weight to 3200lbs adds a mere handful of choices in the first category. (since the E36 was 3200 lbs, this is as heavy as I'd consider)
****

fedlawman · September 2011

You do realize that this is the "Entry-Level" Luxury Sport Sedan forum, right?

There is a difference between luxury and near-luxury. All of these cars walk the line.

mortienne · September 2011

"hello- all 3 of these brands have been around for 20 years.. they have sold millions of cars and have huge amounts of brand cred across the world."

I'd take issue with this, at least as far as Europe is concerned. Yes, Lexus has been around for a long time, but Infiniti as a brand is a very recent arrival. Is Acura even present there? My NSX I drove when I lived in the UK was badged as a Honda, not an Acura, and didn't suffer one iota because of it.

ivan_99 · September 2011

Here's a challenge:...

Not sure you'd ever find anything in the "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan" with those qualifications.

The luxury...and the sedan part usually push it over 3000lbs...

but...
Audi TT (not a sedan...not really RWD...but probably just as good...over 3000 lbs...by a little).

ummm...How about a 911

Hey...for under $40k you can pick up a nice 05-06.

carnaught · September 2011

I am, at this point, unable to comment on squeaks and rattles and premature seat wear. Are your comments based on personal experience?

Yes, I've owned two. They were reliable, however

.

2233 · September 2011

I believe that the Lexus brand and the Infiniti brand were created the same year.

Infiniti was known then for producing ads that did not show the vehicles.

mortienne · September 2011

"I believe that the Lexus brand and the Infiniti brand were created the same year. "

Which wasn't the point under discussion. It was whether those brands were known world-wide. Lexus were active in Europe pretty much from launch. Infiniti was conceived as more of a US brand. Infiniti cars weren't sold officially in Europe until 2008. When I left the UK in 2002, cars that were labelled Acura in the US were sold with a Honda badge in Europe.

m6user · September 2011

Are the Hondas sold in Europe the exact same car as the Acuras sold here in the US? When I say exact I don't mean safety because there are obvious differences due to those regulations, but are they the same level of, for want of a better word, luxury. If so, what kind of prices are these cars being sold for in Europe? Maybe the Honda as we know it here wouldn't even sell in Europe because they would be too low rent so to speak.

billyperksii · September 2011

We play football here-does the rest of the world care?
Who cares what our luxury models are badged as in Europe?
A guy driving around in a 5 series here might get waved at by European tourist thinking its a cab-big deal, culture clash.
We live here, lets keep our focus here.

smarty666 · September 2011

Of course its a challenge, because the criteria you place on a sports sedan is absurd. I never said the TSX is a sport sedan but the G37 and 3-Series most certainly are. You will find few people who will argue otherwise. I didn't realize that the 16inch and 17inch wheels offered OEM are needlessly large tires? I suppose some 14 inch ones would be better :P

The problem is, you and many others place too much emphasis on what the rest of the world is doing in the car market. Who cares what is and what is not offered in Japan, or Germany, China, Korea, etc. Who cares that Lexus, or Infiniti, and Acura are not everywhere around the globe. What matters is they are here and have been for some time now. All that matters is what we are offered here and what we get to choose from. In my life, I have had plenty of mainstream division cars and luxury division vehicles, trust me, there is a big difference between the two.

Unfortunately, people such as yourself, go in at bat with the mindset that they are just rebadged junk and not worth the money, but there is more than just the name and price. It is nicer materials, better put together body, longer warranty, better dealership experience, etc and some other perks you get at the luxury companies than the mainstream. I've seen it first hand from many different makes, both American, German, and Japanese.

m6user · September 2011

We live here, lets keep our focus here.

I was just curious because I hear so often that many of our luxury brands are just glamorized non-luxury models in other parts of the world. I really wonder if they are that close or are the cars we get here really substantially upgraded when the Acura name goes on for example. If you don't want to answer the question just don't answer it. Nobody appointed you hall monitor.

plekto · September 2011

Why is even finding a 3200lb RWD sedan these days so unreasonable? It's not a problem, because in *Europe*, such vehicles do exist. But we get the jumbo economy sized pigs in the U.S.

3600lbs for a 3 series is criminal.
When a previous generation Altima came in at 3000lbs, and it wasn't a tiny car, something's gone horribly wrong. It's not unreasonable to expect lightweight and sporty. The Maxda RX8 is (now was - hope the replacement isn't 3500lbs and FWD) 3000lbs. It gets it right. I actually did find a one car that fit my list. At least for a sport sedan. (yes, it has 4 doors, though their choice of having the rear two open backwards was questionable)

Why is a G37 500 lbs heavier than a RX8? Surely the engineers aren't ITT Tech drop-outs.

Also, from a handling perspective, larger tires will create more lateral grip so that we get better testing scores, but if the car is lighter, it can do just as well with even 15 inch tires. Compare an E30 to today's nonsense. Much smaller suspension parts, smaller tires, smaller brake calipers, and yet it runs much better than the current model in actual driving because you don't have to manhandle the thing and hear the tires howling to get good speed down a twisty road.

shipo · September 2011

"3600lbs for a 3 series is criminal."

The 2011 BMW 328i tips the scales at 3,362 pounds which is about 165 pounds heavier than my 1999 328i. Not exactly a lightweight, but not 3,600 pounds either.

plekto · September 2011

And how much does the 335i weigh? How much does the C 300 weigh? Cars are horrendously heavy today.

billyperksii · September 2011

I appointed myself.

fedlawman · September 2011

"Why is even finding a 3200lb RWD sedan these days so unreasonable? It's not a problem, because in *Europe*, such vehicles do exist."

I can't think of a single car that is available in Europe but not here that fits this description...

markcincinnati · September 2011

While not the universal answer to the many complaints about the weight of these cars we go on about, I suspect there is some justification for the piling on of pounds these machines have endured over the years.

Among the reasons are the addition of more and more safety devices, electronic nannies (most of which I love), increased sound deadening, more content (which may be luxury content, increased unsprung weight (from ever larger and heavier wheels and tires, etc.)), larger engines, more gears in the transmission (although sometimes there are weight savings with some of the new transmissions. . .sometimes), widespread adoption or availability of AWD, more plush (and heavier) interiors, etc.

Simultaneously, I assume the mfgr's are attempting to shave every ounce or pound they can with the use of lighter materials where ever possible and cost effective.

As Pogo says "we have met the enemy and he is us." We want more luxury features, we want more powerful engines, we want the sportiness. and stickiness of AWD, we want our cars to be quieter and we want the big shiny wheels -- 18-inchers are for sissies, we need 19's, 20's or even bigger (and heavier) ones. We want tires that have side-walls that are super-stiff (hence heavier tires) and we want every possible power amenity: power seat massagers and ventilated seats even. Hell I don't want these things, I NEED them! Doesn't everybody?

I suppose ABS and ESP and Brake Assist weigh something -- but gawd, why have a car without that stuff (and I certainly want the OTHER drivers to have these features, since THEY --- not me -- have become such dreadful drivers over the years.)

So we're "stuck" with ever heavier cars -- because we WANT them, are required by law to have them and are, apparently, willing to pay for them.

Frankly, virtually any of the following: Acura TL Advance, Audi A4 Prestige/Sport (or S-Line), BMW 335i xdrive, Cadillac CTS/4 3.6 Performance/Luxury, Infiniti G37X/S or Volvo S60 T6 would be welcome in my garage -- the fact that after 29 Audis in a row I bought a TL was simply that the damn thing came in nearly $200 less per month than the car I wanted, a 2011 Audi A4 Prestige/Sport. That and the 19" wheels and tires and a very sweet and smooth 305HP engine. Oh yea, and an even better sound system than the B&O system found in the Audi (and THAT is saying something.)

I may find, as some suggest here, that the Acura will ultimately prove to be unexciting, uninspiring and prone to rattles and premature leather wear (on the seats). Residual values suggest otherwise, but I don't even have 1,000 miles on the Acura yet, so I am not a reliable or experienced witness.

Anyway, kwitcherbitchin', the cars are heavy, heavier, heaviest mostly because we want them that way (or at least most of us do.)

:surprise:

Kirstie_H · September 2011

Fortunately, I'm available to take over.

As long as the conversation is on-topic (which it is), members are free to discuss anything within the realm of ELLPS, even if the Sedan exists only in Europe or Madagascar, for that matter.

shipo · September 2011

Like it or don't, if you want a car with in excess of 300 hp and 300 lb-ft of torque, you'll also need to buy a car with a heavier engine and drive-train. Throw just the engine from the 335i into a 328i (a process which will bump the weight in and of itself), and just watch what happens to the rest of the drive-train. Not pretty.

As has been stated here before, between the regulated in safety features and the market demand for larger and more powerful cars, it is physically impossible to build a relatively inexpensive sedan with the size, safety and performance of a 335i for anywhere near 3,200 pounds.

nyccarguy · September 2011

AMEN to what Mark & Shipo just said!

nyccarguy · September 2011

The goal of every single car manufacturer in the entire world is to SELL CARS! If we all "did the smart thing" by paying cash for our Camcord & driving them for 10 - 15 years until the wheels fell off, then luxury cars wouldn't exist. Performance cars wouldn't exist.

People have the mindset of: "I'm paying $40,000 ($50,000) for a car and it better have..."

Car companies make a lot of money off people who lease or get new car every 3-5 years. They spend many millions of dollars on advertising and marketing so you make sure you know about "the latest & greatest" out there. If you were a "serial leasee" and were driving a BMW. When your lease is up and your BMW is still exactly the same, are you going to lease another BMW or try something different.

Forget the fact that you are an enthusiast (we are a drop in the bucket). If you were looking at one of these ELLPS today and everything else were equal except BMW's offering was still the E36 328i as it left us in 1998 (I know the E36 coupes stuck around until 1999) would you buy it?

Today's E90 3 series is miniature enough as it is. Trunk space is laughable. Imagine if we were talking about an E36, 2 generations ago.

The government (& the people) want more safety features. People want higher performance. People want more technology. People want cars that can carry 4 people comfortably. People want cars with generous sized trunks.

The car companies are just making what the people want.

smarty666 · September 2011

You illustrated my point and others nicely. Let's go and talk about another country where the car market is completely different and where all of us shop for vehicles, over in Europe, :sick:

fedlawman · September 2011

Where everyone lives in a castle, the taxicabs are S65 AMG's, and there are no speed limits.

plekto · September 2011

Today's E90 3 series is miniature enough as it is. Trunk space is laughable. Imagine if we were talking about an E36, 2 generations ago.

The government (& the people) want more safety features. People want higher performance. People want more technology. People want cars that can carry 4 people comfortably. People want cars with generous sized trunks.
And they were doing the same nonsense in the 70s, when cars got heavier every year. People want more and more, and that just leaves us with a grocery getter and something that is more of a plush luxury sedan rather than anything that resembles true sportiness.

To be honest, the trunk space on a E36 is more usable than today's car. Squarer body means a better layout if we're talking about grocery bags and the like. The EPA rated it at 86/10 The current model is 93/12. But it's rounded and the opening is terribly short length-wise.

Lastly, the RX8 and the previous Altima both where 3000lbs. Large cars can be light. Sporty cars can also be light - and the RX8 is almost as good as a BMW on a track. There's simply no reason to not make cars lighter, because from a technical standpoint, they can be lighter if it's a priority.

shipo · September 2011

"Lastly, the RX8 and the previous Altima both where 3000lbs. Large cars can be light. Sporty cars can also be light - and the RX8 is almost as good as a BMW on a track. There's simply no reason to not make cars lighter, because from a technical standpoint, they can be lighter if it's a priority."

The RX-8 is an aberration and shouldn't be used in the context of this discussion. Why? Because A) it has been out of production for nearly a year now,

while the RX-8 may compete on a track with say a 328i, it has far less usable room, drinks more than half again as much fuel for any given distance at any given level of performance, and C) the engine is extremely difficult to clean up from a pollution perspective (one of the biggest reasons why it is no longer in production).

The Altima? Seriously? I thought this discussion was about RWD sedans. If you throw FWD into the mix then yes, packaging efficiency and a compact drive-train can be combined to reduce weight; but at a cost (FWD being that cost).

flightnurse · September 2011

The main reason why the RX-8 is out of production was the engine was not effient enough, it past emissions with no problem, but it loved Oil, a quart in every 4K miles.

Also I would put a 328 again the RX-8, I would place the 128 again it or 135.

shipo · September 2011

Per a press release I read from Mazda last year, their biggest challenge (and subsequent reason for cancelling the RX-8) with the (then) current generation of rotary engines was meeting upcoming emissions standards; especially so in Europe.

In this case I'm only the messenger.

m6user · September 2011

I thought this discussion was about RWD sedans

I don't see RWD in the discussion title. If you mean that only RWD can be performance cars than that rules out the TL and the A4 unless you get the AWD. But then it's not RWD is it. Also eliminates the TSX which many on here don't think qualifies but I think it fits in as an ENTRY level luxury performance sedan.

You're right about the Mazda or Nissan. They are not premium brands but have some nice offerings.

graphicguy · September 2011

mark...'gratz on the new TL. They are mighty fine cars. Plus, the SH AWD version you have is much closer to an Audi S4 that Audi cares to admit.

Looking back, Acura and BMWs are probably my two favorite brands....I've owned 3 TLs and 3-3 Series, which is more than any other brand/model.

Like you, I've driven Lexus, Infinitis, MBs, Caddy. The comparable Acura and BMW always wins out over them.

Where did you buy yours.....Superior or Columbia?

shipo · September 2011

Maybe I'm confusing threads, but if I recall correctly, the discussion about how heavy cars have gotten included a reference to RWD Sedans. While I'm personally biased toward RWD vehicles, I don't use my bias to exclude other drive layouts from the ELLPS segment.

markcincinnati · September 2011

Thanks for the congrats -- here is the Buying Story.

I found a website called CARWOO.COM -- which, for a one time fee, allows you to locate and price a car without revealing your identity. Unlike competing web sites that do essentially the same thing, CARWOO takes money ONLY from the buyer, not from the seller (unless, of course they are lying.) I paid $148 which allowed me to send queries to EVERY Audi, Acura, Infiniti and Volovo dealer in Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana. I limited my selection to the dealers under 200 miles away from Cincinnati.

CarWoo allows you to configure the car exactly as you want it and you get a text box to explain any flexibility you may have or anything you will not consider.

You then press a button and wait about 24 hours for the CarWoo email machine to start sending you links to your CarWoo account with offers from dealers.

To make a long story a bit shorter, Volvo responded quickly and would not budge off of a $1,000 off MSRP discount. Bzzz! Thanks for playing, maybe next time.

Infiniti was pretty aggressive and two dealers offered me prices that almost had me saying yes.

Audi dealers responded, oddly, (all of them) saying they had no inventory and that any A4 would have to be ordered. One of them finally gave me a price but it was for 42 months, not 36 or 39 and it began with a $7 (for a sub $48,000 A4 for pity's sake).

Acura, locally, came in AT BEST, with a 6.5% discount off MSRP (Columbia). A Columbus Ohio dealer -- Lindsay Acura -- came in at 13% off MSRP for a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with backup sensors (which are about a $715 accessory.) Here's the funny thing, they sourced the car from Columbia -- I have the window sticker! Whatsupwiththat?!?

The car was $499 per month + tax.

I had driven ALL of the cars (not a Lexus or MB of any kind) multiple multiple times and really liked the A4 (what's not to like I still have my 2009 for another 30 days?), the M37X and the TL SH-AWD (Advance model). Likewise I thought the Volvo S60 T6 was GREAT FUN! I also had a chance to drive a Premium+ Audi S4 (without the sport diff -- aka no torque vectoring.) Now THAT car was the most fun of all (but in Premium+ mode had much less "content" than the other cars I had tested, plus is was mo' money, big time.)

Truth be told in what was nearly a back to back to back experience, I drove the Audi, the Cadillac and the Acura over the exact same route for about the exact same time, speeds, tunes on the sound system, etc, etc, in one day's worth of test drives.

I am hoping not to receive a bunch of "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND" posts, but I will venture to say this -- the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance is very close in performance and overall "character" to an Audi S4 -- and although very nice and perhaps "dressier," the Cadillac CTS/4 3.6 with the 19" wheel performance option was the least inspiring of the bunch.

Now the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance is no Audi S4, I am not saying it is, the S4 would be the winner, but contented to match the Acura was just shy of $12,000 more and I could not muster the one that I drove (which was not contented thusly) into and out of corners THAT much quicker than I could the Acura (which may have had an advantage over the Audi at the time since the Acura had torque vectoring and the the Audi did not. Moreover, the Audi did seem more prone to wallowing through corners as if it had more understeer than the Acura, which, even though it was slower seemed perhaps better balanced than the Audi.

So, I says to myself, the Acura (as equipped to my tastes) was just under $48,000 (including shipping, but excluding tax), and my price was about $8,000 off of that -- thank you CarWoo.Com.

No one else even came close.

Remember I was pricing an A4 2.0T Prestige 8-spd Tip w/sport package and wood which came in pretty close MSRP wise to the Acura. The Cadillac had attractive offers but other than its glizt left me thinking it was not focussed on performance as much as the other guys. And, the Cadillac had one thing missing that, for me, was a deal breaker -- a $53,000 CTS does not have grab handles for the front seat passenger or driver. All the other guys do -- and I consider them essential, basic, standard, normal and required. How much do grab handles cost anyway -- in a $53,000 car, maybe $50? What were they thinking? And, moreover, Cadillac in the 4-door CTS does not even offer a blind spot warning system -- which came standard on both the Audi and the Acura at the trim levels I spec'd.

So, thus far, I am missing the Audi new car smell, I miss automatic windshield wipers and bi-xenons (but I rarely can turn on my high beams, so that is not that big of a deal) -- and, oddly enough, I miss the Audi needle sweep when I start the Acura up.

Then, I get on the highway and press my foot down, arousing a 305HP 274 pound feet of torque super smooth engine, watch the power shift from the front to the rear wheels and, zip, I'm at 80MPH in a distance that seems not much longer than my driveway.

Loving the cooled seats and the best sound system I have ever heard in any car (including the B&O in Audi which had been my previous fave.)

Having said all of this -- I probably still would have gone with the Audi 2.0T Prestige Sport if it had come in at a price to match the Acura.

Money talks, as the saying goes. . . :surprise:

nyccarguy · September 2011

Yes the RX8 is light, Balanced,RWD, & Nimble. Like shipo says, at costs. The engine's torque peaks at a very lofty RPM and my Dad's 2010 Chevy Tahoe gets better gas mileage.

Before you quote me EPA sticker numbers, find out what the real world MPG is on an RX8.

nyccarguy · September 2011

Great deal & a great write up on a fantastic car.

graphicguy · September 2011

Mark...cool! As NYC said, great write-up.

I'm familiar with both Columbia and Hidy. Funny that Hidy was trying to sell a car that was on Columbia's lot.

Interesting about CARWOO, also. Personally, I don't care if dealers know my identity. But, I can see where if you didn't want to be bothered with having them contact you where it might be useful.

Anyway, that TL is a very nice ride. You'll like it during the time you have it parked in your driveway.

Funny about Audis. When I was looking several months ago, S4s were on my shopping list. The Cincinnati dealer told me they had such limited stock of everything because the factory wasn't shipping them as many cars. That included their volume model the A4. They had one S4, but it wasn't even close to what I was looking for, and it was a demo.

The Audi store in Dayton had one, but it was a 2K mi trade-in (wonder how much of a bath that owner took) who wanted the (then new) A7 instead.

Beechmont had the best selection with 4 S4s at the time. But, like you, I couldn't see where the price delta was worth it to pay that much more over the similar TL SH AWD.

BMW is offering to do a factory performance retrofit on my 335i, which would up both the HP and the torque by about 7%. Understand, I believe that BMW is stretching the truth about how much HP and torque the 335i motor is putting out in factory trim (it's a lot more). The kicker, I can do the facotry performance upgrade at my dealership, complete with normal BMW warranty for $600.

I'm debating if I'll want it. My car's already as fast as greased lightening, how much more could I want? But, we're talking 20 extra ponies here.

markcincinnati · September 2011

It turned out to be Lindsay Acura, Columbus, OH.

klik or go here:

http://www.dealerrater.com/directory/Ohio/Acura/

kyfdx · September 2011

$600 for 20 horsepower?

That's a cheap upgrade....

graphicguy · September 2011

Mark....sorry about that. Seems I've talked to, or visited every Acura and BMW dealer within a 100 mile radius of Cincinnati in the last couple of years. They start to run together.

I'm familiar with Lindsay, too. While, I've not visited the store, I had dealt with one of the sales people there, who wasn't very good. I was looking for a particular color combo. He said he had it. When I asked him for the VIN#, he strung me along, wanting me to come to the store to "talk about the car". I wanted to make sure they had the color combo before making a 90 minute drive. I told him all it would take for me to drive up to visit him was the VIN so I could confirm he had what I wanted. He couldn't/wouldn't He wouldn't assure me of that.

Again, congrats on the car. It's a very nice one that you're going to enjoy a lot.

kyfdx.....here's the blurb on Edmunds (which my dealer confirms they can do).....

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/1-series/bmw-offers-performance-power-kit-for-135i- -and-335i.html

I know the previous 135/335 had the twin turbo (N54), and the new ones have the twin scroll turbo (N55). I've driven both. The N54 had a bit of turbo lag (not much). But, BMW overboosts it at higher RPM (which is why the 335is is rated with more HP and torque than the N55. However, I think both motors are under rated and put out more HP and torque than BMW says they do.

That said, I'm trying to decide if I want the extra HP/torque. That would essentially make my 335i coupe with the same engine performance as the 335is, which is mighty good.

But, mine is really good to begin with. I'm debating but probably will do it when I can schedule some time at the dealership to get it done. Who doesn't like more HP and torque? :shades:

How's your new Z4, BTW? Did you ever post pics?

plekto · September 2011

Maybe I'm confusing threads, but if I recall correctly, the discussion about how heavy cars have gotten included a reference to RWD Sedans. While I'm personally biased toward RWD vehicles, I don't use my bias to exclude other drive layouts from the ELLPS segment.

I didn't exclude FWD or AWD cars, it's just that BMW's earlier models set the standard for the class, which led to the best example, the E30. (also Volvo did make a 240 turbo which was nearly identical at the time). That both were RWD was just because that's how they liked to make cars.

But as far as weight, 3500+ lbs isn't sporty. Not when you add in fuel, fluids, a battery, and normal stuff like a spare tire, which aren't part of the "dry weight" listed. That adds another 200-300 lbs or so, conservatively. Then add in a typical driver, and you can be at or near 4000lbs rolling down the road. Physics dictate that you cannot get a 2 ton anything to turn on a dime and actually be nimble.

Now, compared by decades of sofa on wheels, yes, they could be described as "sporty." But they're a far, far cry from their original roots.

Oh, I thought of another possible small sport sedan to add to the under 3000lbs list - the Mini Cooper S. In fact, this is a perfect example, because on paper the turning radius is actually worse than a 128i. (vs 35.1 vs 36.2 ft) But drive one and it's a huge difference in how they actually move and handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF4YWKWjLIk
Here is the 128i vs the Cooper. Of note is the huge difference in slalom speeds. Weight is a huge problem that even better tires and RWD can't completely mitigate.

In something like a TSX, well, the slalom speed for a TSX is 64.6 mph (both Edmunds, same exact testing methods) The original E36 M3? Edmunds managed to get one to go 75mph through their slalom. Just a whole other planet compared to today's cars.

fedlawman · September 2011

"Edmunds managed to get one to go 75mph through their slalom."

Link?

sweendogy · September 2011

congrats on the TL- as a pedestrian i'm happy that acura cleaned up the look a bit for 2012. Living in new england I see very few (08?)09-11 versions then one would expect.. Audi, BMW, Infinitis along with TSX's are way more common-- my guess it has to do with looks along with the TSX being a good cheaper option.

does anyone know when acura will do a revamp of the current lineup?

I will check out your advertisement for car woo, thanks.

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