Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy · October 2011

I understand that this is an agrument that I will lose as soon as the host comments but why not a Volvo s60 which was just updated, and has been marketed as a competitor to the cars on the right. My point is this was started 10 years ago and why not reshuffle the deck once a decade?

markcincinnati · October 2011

Holy cow! I assumed the S60 was in this group -- until I double checked the top of the screen and saw no S60.

Is this an oversight -- we can debate until the cows come home the relevance of the TSX, but if the S60 is not here and the A4 and 3 and C class are, where in the world would the S60 be if not ELLPS? :confuse:

Finally IMHO there is no comparison of an A4 with a TSX that can withstand any serious examination -- now, then, compare an A3 vs TSX or a "Deluxe" Jetta or perhaps a new Passat with a TSX, sure.

But, sure, go ahead keep it here as an outlier.

flightnurse · October 2011

Congrats on the new BMW, I was wondering when is your 2012 arriving? I truly love my 2011 328, for the money really don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the cars you were looking at, its all a matter of personal taste.

flightnurse · October 2011

Reason why the S60 isn't talked about much is the fact the car redesign makes a statement in style, some people might not think of it as a contender. However this is changing, and soon it will be talked about. For me when I looked at buying my 328 I looked at Volvo on the same night I looked at the A4. The interior space on the S60 seemed smaller then the A4 for more money. Also the car isnt that sporty even in sport trim.

fedlawman · October 2011

I do think the new S60 belongs in this class and should be added. The old model - not so much (except for the limited production R model).

me0000 · October 2011

I am getting a 2011 328iX. Sorry if I created confusion.

sweendogy · October 2011

"Also the car isnt that sporty even in sport trim. "

really??

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/11q3/2012_volvo_s60_r-design-short_take_- road_test

m6user · October 2011

My understanding of these forums is that there is only space out to the right for 9 vehicles and that corresponds to what is listed at the top of the page. Just like the midsized sedans forum there are many more midsize family sedans than there is spaces to the right. What this means, and I'm shocked that long time posters don't know this, is that there are other cars not listed that can and probably should be included in discussions. The host can correct me if I'm wrong.

So the S60 certainly can be included in the discussion IMO as well as the 9-5(at least for now???) and possibly others.

And of course I know the A4 has more torque. Some family sedans have more torque than the A4 so I hardly think that should be the only qualifier.

ashton12 · October 2011

Think German is more authentic...can't trust on Japanese on this..

ashton12 · October 2011

Think German is more authentic...can't trust on Japanese on this..

Kirstie_H · October 2011

That's exactly the issue - limited space. I believe at the time, models were chosen based on the higher-volume sellers or those for which we see the most consumer traffic/interest in the forums. The list isn't meant to be all-inclusive or limiting regarding what vehicles you can discuss - as long as the vehicle reasonably fits into the ELLPS class, it's fine to talk about.

Looking at the list, it seems we could replace the Mercedes C-Class with the Volvo S60. It *has* been updated - I remember taking out the G35 and replacing it with the G37.

m6user · October 2011

True or they could even replace the TSX as they already have the TL listed from Acura. That would satisfy all the people that seem to have a hang up with the TSX(they wouldn't see it displayed) but we can still discuss as a viable alternative. All these cars don't have to perform exactly alike or be priced the same to be in the same class. There always has to be a starting point in any category and I would suggest the TSX is that starting point. Is it as fast, handle as well, etc etc as many of the others? No, but it still belongs in the mix.

fedlawman · October 2011

I would rather see the S60 take the place of one of the Lexus sedans. They are much more redundant than the TSX and TL.

Kirstie_H · October 2011

I agree - no sense in listing two very similar models. Most of our discussions across the forums about the IS250/IS350 are combined anyway, and it's not that much of a high-traffic model.

m6user · October 2011

I have no vested interest so I don't care much which cars are mentioned in the heading. I fail to see the big deal in all of this. All ELLPS are welcome for discussion as the host stated....whether they are listed or not. But listing a car that doesn't get much attention may be good thing as it would generate some discussion about it.

renssils · October 2011

After driving my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD with Advance package and automatic transmission for 8,000 miles, I can make a few observations. The car has been reliable, though lately it rattles, perhaps from the sunroof. The seats are comfortable. The HVAC and in-car electronics are excellent. On the highway it gets about 27 miles a gallon; in town, about 17 miles a gallon. The engine and transmission are both quiet and smooth.

Within 250 miles of my getting the TL at the end of April 2011, I bought a set of four Continental ContiExtreme DW summer tires, which are so much better than the OEM Goodyear tires. The TL on the Conti tires is fun to drive! The Contis stick like glue, are quieter, and smoother riding. Today in anticipation of winter, the Goodyears were installed on the TL; the Contis will be stored until next April. I will miss the Contis. I recall that the Goodyear tires were noisy, rough riding, and had low limits of adhesion. I hope that they'll perform well in shallow snow.

I've owned several high-performance all-wheel-drive sedans including a 2001 Audi A6 4.2 sport, a Subaru SVX, which is my all-time favorite, and two Subaru Legacy spec.B sedans. I was inclined to get a new Audi S4, but chose the TL after driving a BMW 535ix, Volvo S60 T6, and Infiniti M37x. The TL seemed to be the best all-around vehicle. The TL was appreciably less costly to lease than the other cars.

The TL delights in many ways, but disappoints in some ways. The forward visibility is atrocious. Thick, raked A-pillars create huge blind spots; turning left or right always seems risky. Rear visibility is severely limited. The back up camera has primitive software and furthermore rain on the camera's lens reduces its utility. The trunk is oddly shaped and small for a 194-inch long car; if you don't lift the trunk deck as high as it will go, its pointed bottom lip will stab you. The only clock is an inch-long digital display buried in a panel near the radio buttons. The navigation system's system has irritating quirks that should have debugged long ago. The car would benefit from a reduction in window and road noise.

The TL is so close to being a fine car, but I wouldn't buy it or any car ever again with small windows, high belt line, and atrocious visibility.

robbieg · October 2011

I would think that in the real world few people actaully want a "performance car". Most people want a slush box and not a stick. Furthermore, at least in my next of the woods, people don't want a RWD BMW or Mercedes. They want AWD so it goes in the snow. In short, performance isn't that big of a deal.

The TSX is every bit as sporty as a CTS or the S60 if not more so. It seems people in this forum, which I have read on and off for years, care about a manual transmission and rear wheel drive. Well, few if any of those cars are sold in my area. Most BMWs are x-drive and with only a few manuals are actually sold.

andres3 · October 2011

I'll agree the TSX belongs. If only for it's quality interior appointments and exacting assembly from Japanese artisans. I found it to be "tighter" than the USA built TL a few years back (previous generation models).

I had a 2003 Accord V6 and it's interior was best in class in my opinion, but the TSX clearly goes beyond anything Honda has or had in luxuriousness of the interior. I haven't driven a TSX so I can't speak on that, but I'm very familiar with the way Honda's drive, and would say that Honda/Acura have mastered the art of sporty FWD cars. FWD can be great when engineered correctly for sport and performance.

I currently drive a FWD Audi A3, and can say that Honda/Acura/Audi/VW are in their own league when it comes to sporty FWD performance.

I don't think anyone can touch them on Front Trak/FWD.

If your goal is to be fast, FWD can work. If your goal is to do powerslides and drift, FWD is a problem.

I think in the future I will prefer AWD. Absent the weight penalty, AWD rocks.

shipo · October 2011

"Today in anticipation of winter, the Goodyears were installed on the TL; the Contis will be stored until next April. I will miss the Contis. I recall that the Goodyear tires were noisy, rough riding, and had low limits of adhesion. I hope that they'll perform well in shallow snow."

Assuming your car came with the same Goodyear Eagle RS-As that mine came with, I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. I bought my car in November of 2008, two days before a light dusting of snow, and the RS-As proved to be as bad in the snow as the Michelin Pilot Primacys which came on my last BMW (with the Sport Package which features summer tires).

Fortunately I'd been forewarned about the RS-As and already had a set of Pilot Sport A/Ss on order, and once they were installed after 714 miles, I sold the (virtually new) Goodyears for something like thirty cents on the dollar (and was happy to get that much for them).

fedlawman · October 2011

"I fail to see the big deal in all of this. All ELLPS are welcome for discussion as the host stated....whether they are listed or not."

I agree, but I think that for internet search purposes it might make a difference. I'm not a web master - just an anal retentive car enthusiast, so what do I know? :P

markcincinnati · October 2011

. . .but I posted it over on the 2012 Acura TL (only) board, which doesn't have as much gravitas, based on the number of posts, as this board. So, if you get a moment and care to discuss my premise that Acura needs to get its Premium Class (or ELLPS, if you will) game face on, or else, please take a look-see at my thesis and hit me with your best shot.

You can read the, er, offending post (#42) here, if you like:

markcincinnati, "2012 Acura TL" #42, 24 Oct 2011 2:57 pm

sweendogy · October 2011

mark - good post-- something ive been saying for years- the acura line as we know it has not life and needs to be revived. Its been past by both lexus (luxury) and infiniti (sport) and no where near the germans. Where is the NSX, the integra, or the legend.. Cars are recycled from the parent acura line, like oldsmobile used to do with chevy cars.. olds no longer exists -for good reason. Acura needs to get the game back on, i agree, where is the passion for driving.sure they build a nice sedan that will last 10 years but.. sorry boys with the TSX and the TL's-- your cars are fine autos but not sports sedans.. (HOSTS its time for a change to this category, i mean its been 10 years, get rid of the TSX, keep the boring TL and add a Volvo, i mean do the math ELLPS its in the price range, produces more power, has awd and has been talked about for months-its 2012 not 2002)

sweendogy · October 2011

why not say this a year ago when it was first mentioned ? I mean its been pretty well know by all the TSX should be moved lower in the class due to the fact that it has less power, is fwd, and has never been mentioned by magazines that we all read as being a player in the group?- the posters of the blog should be heard..

tlong · October 2011

... the posters of the blog should be heard.

Personally, I've seen it repeated many times that the TSX belongs in this discussion, yet SOME poster just can't let that lie.....I wonder why? Nobody is forcing anybody to buy the car. :surprise:

m6user · October 2011

One word about this constant TSX rant.......boring.

andres3 · October 2011

I will say that there was an Integra at the track, and it kept up with me in my A3 (with some mods too) and I'm a pretty fast student driver.

Of course, I let him pass once, and then he proceeded to spin out and get about 6" deep in the dirt n' gravel on the very next turn as I stayed right behind him, but for a lap or two, he stayed with me.

Didn't Edmund's Inside Line recently show a ten year old RSX ran circles around a 2010 Civic Si.

Haven't seen a TL or TSX at the track yet.

andres3 · October 2011

test drive.

I'm talking a serious test drive where you can really drive the car, probably to the point where most car salesman wouldn't want to go along for the ride?

qbrozen · October 2011

Just tell them that's what you want to do. Explain you need to take it out for probably an hour or more so you can be sure. Doubt a salesman will want to spend an hour riding along with you.

If they do insist on going along, I go ahead and do what I would do as if they weren't there. It is their own damned fault.

markcincinnati · October 2011

I have found that LPS and ELLPS car dealer salesreps virtually never go along for the test drive -- assuming the car you show up with at the dealership is already in the same class or that the car is at least fairly new and you don't look like something the cat dragged in.

If you show up at the dealership with your significant other, too, I can bump that up to "the salesrep NEVER goes along for the ride." Now, one thing they do, if you are a stranger to the dealership, is photocopy your driver's license.

On the other hand, if you go into a Ford dealership (not picking on Ford), to drive a new Taurus, they ALWAYS go on the ride with you, ditto with Honda, Mazda and VW, to name a few.

Since it has never happened -- the salesrep ride along -- with this class of car, I usually take a long test drive (about 1 CD's worth) and then almost immediately go onto the next car I am considering and repeat the same test drive (over the same roads, route, etc.) also for about 1 CD (the same CD, natch.)

My wife and I have a routine for testing that permits about three (maybe four) cars to be tested back to back to back (to back) in one day (Saturday or Sunday if possible.) This most recent time we used the video capture feature of an iPhone 4G and she recorded my reactions while I drove and I recorded hers, etc -- as we drove each car over the exact same route, speeds, etc, etc. Afterwards we compared our instantaneous reactions as first I drove an Audi, then a Cadillac then an Acura (ditto her.)

Frankly, and I know many here will argue that I must have been on something, we drove an Audi S4 Premium Plus, a CTS-4 Sport Luxury (with 19" sport package) and an Acura TL SH-AWD Advance back to back to back: we found the S4 and the TL to be twin sons of different mothers they were so close in their capabilities (and the TL was the clear price winner.) The CTS4 was "very nice" but seemed to lack the weapons grade torque the other two seemed to have (and I admit the S4 had more, but the difference was not worth the extra premium price, especially considering the fact that the S4 didn't even have nav.)

Our test drives include: acceleration runs (to 80+MPH), parking lot (empty) "slalom runs" (to test understeer -- be aware this causes motion sickness if you have just eaten), panic braking (with ESP on and off), freeway driving (20+ miles, one way, or so, at least) and secondary road (where there is very low traffic) "performance" driving.

We listen to the radio (AM, FM and Sat) and the CD. We test for bluetooth pairing with a Blackberry (difficult to do for many cars) and we see how intuitive the voice command/prompt systems are, etc.

If you take along some popcorn, you can make a really entertaining day of it -- and come to some rather unanticipated conclusions, too. Take me, for instance -- I thought for certain I would end up with Audi #30 or an Infiniti M37X. Acura wasn't really on my radar. I thought I would end up with a Volvo S60 T6 before I would ever go for a "butt ugly" Acura.

DOH! :surprise:

kdshapiro · October 2011

The 2012 M is gorgeous. And I somewhat disagree about the salesperson going along for the ride.

Honda, check. Toyota, check. Ford, no. Lexus, no. Acura, never drove it. BMW, didn't have to drive it.

Im now 4 months into my g37 and that vehicle puts a smile on my face. I was going to go for the 335i but the value and sportiness and price point of the g was hard to refuse.

I rented both the g and CTS for a week. The week rental of the g is what swayed my decision. The acura didn't do it for me, even though I'm a fan of Honda. Wasn't interested in Audi or Volvo. Es wasn't sporty enough. G is quick when you get on the gas and rides like its on rails.

flightnurse · October 2011

A few years back my partner and I were looking to buy an SUV, we stopped in an Acrua Dealer, talked to the sales guy (no pressure at all) he got a copy of our licenses and handed us the keys a MDX, said, we close at 9pm be back before that (this was at 4pm.) When we came back we talked to the sales guy and bought the MDX (touring with Nav.) It was the best test drive I have ever taken, no pressure whats so ever. We had it for 4 years until we traded it in on a 2009 X5.

Is Acura still doing these kind of test drives?

billyperksii · October 2011

Some do in CT- the ones who think they can milk you for your last penny- did someone say Norwalk CT.

andres3 · October 2011

Hmmm, maybe that's why I've never got to do a test drive without the salesman present, whether it was me or my significant other doing the driving and whether or not we were together or I was alone.

Of course, I've only purchased a Honda and an Audi A3 new myself. Maybe driving into the Audi dealer with a Honda made them treat me like a VW customer.

Do they ever impose mileage restrictions on you? I'd imagine if someone said be back before closing and that gave me 5 hours driving time, you could drive 300 miles easily averaging 60 MPH. I'm thinking 150 miles would be a sufficient test drive. In San Diego, that would be like a drive to Julian and back; which would be perfect to test all of the capabilities properly.

I don't necessarily need to be alone, but I think 100 or so miles are needed to make a purchase decision on something over $30K.

andres3 · October 2011

I'm shocked you found the TL to be every bit the car the S4 was (well, almost). Doesn't the S4 have a 25 or so HP advantage as well over the TL?

I'd always imagined the TL would have a much softer Lexus like ride vs. the sport oriented S4.

markcincinnati · October 2011

Check this out -- and what you will read is about the big beak 5-spd version of the TL vs the toned down, little beak, 6-spd version of the TL.

In this test, the cars had manual transmissions, to be clear.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_2010_acura_tl_sh_awd_vs_2010_au- - di_s4/index.html

kdshapiro · October 2011

I remember one of the auto articles made some comparision of the G35 to a Ferarri or Maserati. Riiiiiiight.

rayainsw · October 2011

A long time ago...

http://www.330gt.com/MagazineArticles/CarAndDriver196503.htm

My favorite line is \ and was when I read it, back in the day:
'Also, it took a team of three talented mechanics and a [ lot ] of hard work under the hood to make it [ the Pontiac ] do what the Ferrari did all day with its left hand.'

markcincinnati · October 2011

All I am saying is I drove a 2011 S4 Premium Plus, followed by a 2011 Cadillac CTS/4, followed by a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance. My reactions, without price considerations:

#1 S4 if it were the Prestige version
#2 TL, as is
#3 Cadillac -- nice to look at, but too much emphasis on lux, not enough on sport

With price factored in:

#1 TL SH-AWD Advance (which includes 19" wheels and tires)
#2 S4 -- but way too much money
#3 Cadillac -- nice to look at, but too much emphasis on lux, not enough on sport

I ended up choosing a 2012 Audi A4 Prestige w/sport package as my #1 choice since it and the TL were comparbly equipped and priced.

Then, being a leasing customer, finding a 42 month lease on the A4 to be over $100 per month higher than the 36 month TL lease, I went with the Acura.

The Acura does not blow me away -- but, FOR THE MONEY, the Acura is 8.5/10ths as "good" as the S4.

The Acura continues to impress me everytime I drive it. I doubt I will have much lust for it -- the Audi seemed like the kind of ride you might consider pawning something for, not so the Acura or Cadillac.

I gave the Acura a "+" since it is made in North America -- been a long time since I owned (or leased) something primarily "made in America,"

I am NOT trying to convice you to choose the Acura over a BMW 3 or Audi A4 or even over a Volvo S60 T6 or Type-R. I am simply saying someone, once, did a cross comparison of an S4 and a TL and found them to be able to be talked about in the same breath, sentence and paragraph.

If someone would have magically lowered the term and monthly lease payment price on the A4 2.0T Prestige, I would propbably be THERE, now.

Mean time, I must say one thing for sure, the TL has the best factory sound system I have ever heard. The fact that it handles pretty well and accelerates strong is nothing but gravy. :surprise:

andres3 · October 2011

Mean time, I must say one thing for sure, the TL has the best factory sound system I have ever heard.

I have heard and read that from many people and sources. Find a DVD-A (DVD Audio disc) and put that in to be truly blown away for sound quality.

However, I'm sure your tested S4 didn't have the Bang & Olufsen optional sound system which has garnered some magnificent attention lately for Audi.

markcincinnati · October 2011

I have about a half a dozen DVD Audio disks, and you are right -- wow! My outgoing 2009 A4 Prestige had the B&O system and it was great, too, but nothing like the Acura ELS system in Dolby PLII or DVD-Audio (or DTS CD's for that matter, too.)

I wonder why, in this day and age of BRANDING, that Acura chose not to have a tie in with a name brand sound system?

kdshapiro · October 2011

I have the upgraded bose on my G, I played "the matrix" and was blown away by the sound quality and separation. B&O though has a very good reputation for making top shelf products.

I haven't heard the TLs sound system in person, but I've read on forums those who have and who have heard the G's system, say there are equals.

andres3 · October 2011

I don't know. Bose spends more on marketing than on the products.

There is a saying, "No highs, no lows, must be BOSE!"

Harmon/Kardon has a better reputation in sound quality, but even they seem to skimp out for BMW installations.

I think Acura did the right thing in doing it themselves with no name tied to it, but probably, they did outsource to some company out there that remained nameless, or they hunted and hired some key personnel from one of the sound/speaker companies.

kdshapiro · October 2011

I guess it depends. I have a number of BOSE products and are very happy with them.

We are talking about stock stereo systems. Based on the source I suspect there will be a lot of variability. The only thing is Acura can play dvd-a discs, which, imo is going the way of cassette. It is debateable if there is a real world difference between a DVD-A disc at 96khz and a DVD disc at 48khz.

markcincinnati · October 2011

My wife has the BOSE upgrade in her 2011 Infinity -- it is very good. But nothing, so far, comes close (OEM) to what is in the Acura (the ELS system, is the one I am speaking of.)

The B&O was also very good -- it must be the sub-woofer in the Acura, since music "feels" so much more alive in the Acura than either the Audi or the Infiniti.

I agree DVD-Audio, good as it is, is about as popular as DIVX. I suspect that this is, once again, caused by "good being the enemy of great!"

I do find this somewhat confusing since Blu-ray seems to be a success and HDTV, too, seems to be the preferred way to watch TV these days.

Some of the DVD-Audio disks are truly amazing -- and very scarce.

Unfortunately, I end up listening to Sirius-XM most of the time. And, it is truly poor it is so limited in dynamic range and, frankly, fidelity. It is, however, better than most FM stations and being "never out of signal/range" is a big plus on those 100 mile commutes between cities I seem to make so often.

I had hoped for more from Sat-Radio. But, I must admit I do like the station called Deep Tracks -- and Watercolors is pretty good too.

kdshapiro · October 2011

Re Acura ELS, that's what I'm saying. I've read a lot of he/she said on how good it is based on what audio source.

Have you tried playing a high qualify DVD with 5.1 in the thing? It's sounds amazing.

I agree about XM, however and this is a big however, I'll forgo the dynamic range to have the choice of music. 40's on 4, 60's on 6, 70's on 7, watercolors, soul/r&b whatever. I listened to xm when i rented the G in the desert, miles from anything. Loved it. Not to mention I'm loading up the harddrive with all sorts of stuff.

andres3 · October 2011

I guess it depends. I have a number of BOSE products and are very happy with them.

Have you owned comparable products to the BOSE from other companies at similar price points?

It is not debateable whether a regular DVD is as good in sound quality as a DVD-A. It is not only the difference between 96 Khz and 48 khz for the bandwidth but also 16bit vs. 24bit/96Khz.

I'll take the Pepsi challenge anyday with my home audio system and I'm positive the differences are noticeable and substantial. I even have a 24-Bit/48 Khz that sounds noticeably better than regular DVD's.

However, you are right, SACD and DVD-A killed each other in a double suicide just like the fate of HDDVD.

Blu-Ray has SACD/DVD-A audio potential along with HD video capability to go with it, so once cars get Blu-Ray players, DVD-Audio will be obsolete.

billyperksii · October 2011

Mark, XM is so yesterday, why pay for the services after the 3 months freebie?
Streaming is the way to go these days- Pandora and the list goes on.
I like Pandora in particular, it does not loose is connectivity as some of the other sources.

andres3 · October 2011

Not to mention that XM and Sirius are guilty of downgrading and compressing the beamed out signals so much that it negates any advantage in technology!

markcincinnati · October 2011

The thing is, XM is so easy to use and certain stations (mostly the ones with live announcers, it seems) aren't as badly compressed as others. I like the ability to listen to Deep Tracks for a while then switch to 60's, then classical, then Spa then Watercolors, etc.

How would I get Pandora, live, in a moving car, pardon my ignorance?

kdshapiro · October 2011

What is debateable and what I was getting at, is can you hear the difference at 65 mph over rough, noisy pavement? Between the two formats. I'll bet not.

I'm not talking about a high-end home theater system, I'm talking about wind noise, road noise, rain noise all at once.

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