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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    IMO I dont care who or which country that make the car, as long as it meets my requirement then its fine.

    Why people keep comparing a 5.7 litre engine with ~3.0 litre engine? $50k VS $30-40k? What about the 3.6 CTS-V which is more makes sense.

    There is always something that we dont like either its about the look, reliability, performance, luxury etc. For 50k I would go with Lexus/BMW and maybe the future model of RL (need to see it first thou). Its a blunt attempt to make a car with performance only without considering other aspects.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    However when you say I want an American Car company(Ford or whomever ?) to go out of business, the line between car discusion passion and financial political discussion gets crossed.

    As a passionate car lover I'm speaking from a purely emotional level. I feel the same way about Steven Spielberg, Microsoft, McDonald's and a host of other franchises/companies that represent qualities I dislike.

    Of course on a business school, bottom-line side I totaly understand the economic ramifications created by voiding any of these moneymakers. The ardent capitalist side screams, "Make money any way you can. Sell them a box of rocks fro $1000 and call it Mars' Diamonds."

    The cold, business school trained analytical side tends to scare more people than the emotional side. If I could stamp out substandard products at half the cost of my competitors and lure more people into buying my products for multi billion dollar profits I would.

    Back to our regularly scheduled program: Squabbling about the performance of a 50k "entry level" luxury sedan.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    What's your problem with Spielberg?
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    The Spielberg movie always use Ford Vans for talent transportation to shoots ;D
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's stick to the cars and leave the political views out of this -- whether you define some subjects as "political" or not, we are not here to talk about the American economy, anti-american sentiment, hostility towards American makes, etc.

    Please get back to the cars, and again, let's keep our conversation relevant to our subject.

    I would really appreciate that.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    ...regarding "Near Luxury Performance Sedans".

    As a point of reference, I drive a 2002 530i 5-Speed with enough extra goodies to have brought the MSRP up to nearly $49,000. That said, I got a good deal and did the European Delivery thing which resulted in a final price of just south of $43,000. That of course does not count the cost of the European trip, but I would have taken it anyway (and rented a car while I was there).

    From my point of view, my car completely meets my needs, wants and desires. It's fun to drive, economical (31 mpg on the highway), reliable (two years old and no unscheduled trips to the dealership), good looking inside and out, luxurious, certainly fast enough to get my attention, and capable enough to deal with it's power and ability to go fast. What do I mean by that last bit? On the autobahn during my ED trip, I was tooling along at the speed limiter (128.5 mph) when a motorcycle pulled out directly in front of me doing something like 60 mph. I performed an emergency lane change (unfortunately when he saw me in the mirror he did the same, keeping him directly in my sights), and then performed what could best be described as an anchor dropping test of the brakes. At our closest we only got within two feet of each other (him under full acceleration and me in panic stop mode) so he still had a little margin for his error and as such, he lived for another day (hopefully).

    Having said all of that, I have been reading here that there are certain cars of a similar price and size with bigger (if not substantially bigger) motors that are "superior" vehicles for the money. Uh-huh, right. I suppose anybody can throw a big engine in any given car and proclaim it superior to other similar cars with smaller engines, and I suppose to their way of thinking, it is. To my way of thinking, that's the easy part, and that it's the rest of the package that makes the "Upgraded" car truly superior. Would a CTS-V for instance, have acquitted itself as perfectly as my 530i did in the above situation? Unknown, but I suspect that the CTS-V is likely to have a much greater front end weight bias, and as such would not have been able to perform the lane change and the deceleration without hitting the individual on the bike after his ill advised maneuver.

    Balance, that's what the BMW offers, and yes, on paper it will certainly cost more for what you seem to get. So, if I had it to do all over again, and if I was faced with the choice of a CTS-V or my 530i for about the same price, what would I choose? Probably the BMW. Call me naïve, call me dumb, call me wasteful, call me a poseur, call me whatever you like. I can live with that. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That site doesn't tell me anything about what CR found.

    M
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I love it. In the end, you're happy.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Results likes these stem from surveys done on a vehicle spanning three model years. Trouble areas such as brakes, the electrical system, power equipment, and body integrity are surveyed.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FO- LDER%3C%3Efolder_id=402621&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&- bmUID=1078983779452#largesuvs

    Perhaps if you contact CR directly, they'll send their H2 problem findings...in a truck.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    No Autobahns in North America :-(
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm aware of what they test, I was just asking what exactly what the problems were, its not that serious for me to contact CR.

    M
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I know of two people personally who had catostrophic transmission failures on their H2s. We're talking totally blown trannies. Where? Off-road? LOL. These dorks bought the H2 for exactly the reason one would expect - to show off. One guy dumped his ZO6 for it and the other parted with his Boxster S because it was "too much trouble to shift."
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    shipo, I'm glad you like your car and feel safe in it, but its extra mass means that it has worse skidpad numbers and longer braking than many of the cars in the title of this discussion. So I would certainly not say that they cannot handle the situation as well or better.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Yeah I'd take a 28,000 G in that situation over any non M BMW. And I'd take a BMW over 99.8% of all other makes and models out there. I think the numbers and actual dynamics of both cars are good but there is a consistently better performance margin from the G which would indicate ease of manuevering in same situation. And we've beat the brakes thing to death. The BMW is more forgiving and not as sport as the barely entry lux G. Doubt there much to disagree with other than preference there. Both cars on the autobahn are better than any caddy - so far...Shipo hit it on the head pretty well with the stuffing a big motor in it doesn't make it better...I was dissapointed in what i've discovered about the CTSV and would hope a 300hp 6 and a better interor was in the making.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Extra mass compared to what? Not trying to pick a fight, however, the manual transmission version of the 530i weighs in at only 96 pounds more than a three pedal G35 Sedan; that's not even a tank of gas. That said, the SP on my 530i includes 235 section width tires as opposed to the 215 tires that come on the G35, my guess is that the extra inch of tire width will at least offset the whopping 96 pound weight difference. Call it a draw.

    Regarding my comment about another car acquitting itself as well as my car did in the situation I found myself in, you will notice that I was referring a (presumably) nose heavy CTS-V and not the G35. I consider the G a reasonably well balanced car with very acceptable driving characteristics. To my eye however, its styling inside and out just doesn't pass muster, which I understand is simply personal preference.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bxd20bxd20 Member Posts: 68
    CTS-V is 54/46 according to Road and Track. That's not nose heavy.

    Since you are commenting quite a bit about your 5 series and weight, consider this comment by C&D Mar 2004 in regards to the M5 vs. CTS-V:

    "Cadillac's steering was gratifyingly precise. It turned in like Marshall Faulk cutting for the goal line, and if its weight transfer wasn't quite as smoothly managed as the M5's, there wasn't a hint of reluctance in its transient responses. The CTS-V was also perfectly happy to provide the driver with as much oversteer as he wanted. The breakaway might be a little more abrupt, but once rotation set in, it was easy enough to control with a judicious throttle foot."

    As we all know, the CTS-V edged out the M5 in lap times despite the driver admittingly short-shifting due to a faulty oil pressure sensor on the CTS-V. In his best estimate, he would have beaten the M3 as well if pushing the Caddy at 100%.

    Brian
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, 54/46 sounds nose heavy to me, maybe not FWD nose heavy but front biased nonetheless, especially when compared to the 50.1/49.9 of the 530i.

    Regarding the E39 M5 that was so gracefully retired, still at the top of the heap last year; I suppose that Cadillac should in all fairness be able to crow about being "King of the Hill", for a while that is. Like everything else out there, the competition does not stand still. The odds on bet is that the CTS-V will once again be considered an "Also-Ran" in a year's time or so, just like the CTS has been since it was launched.

    Best Regards
    Shipo
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    The TL is nose heavy, but still stops faster than the 530 and is neck and neck with last gen's sport package 530 on the skidpad (the 2004 is a big improvement, however).

    I do stand corrected on the mass, however. I thought it was much heavier than it really is.

    As far as the CTSV being an "also-ran", I think it will still be held up as "the most bang for the buck" regardless. Its the same reason the Z06 does so well in comparisons with much more expensive cars. Its not that its the best, but its good enough that the reviewers would opt for it and save a bundle of money over similar vehicles.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    "Cadillac's steering was gratifyingly precise. It turned in like Marshall Faulk cutting for the goal line, and if its weight transfer wasn't quite as smoothly managed as the M5's, there wasn't a hint of reluctance in its transient responses.

    Uh, Marshall Faulk hasn't cut smoothly in a couple years. He's basically Emmitt Smith Jr out there now.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I am glad you avoided an accident and you are ok, but to say that your BMW 530 could do something and another car could not do it is simply ridiculus. Unless you have tried the same manuevuer with another car you are taking a huge leap of faith.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ummm, maybe I missed it. Where exactly did I say that my 530i would do anything better than anything else?

    If I remember correctly, I said, "I suspect...". Yes, no?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Come on Shipo, you are implying that the CTS could never pull that maneuver because of what you infer about its weight distribution. Let's not kid.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    the ongoing conversations but I am just letting you all know that yesterday I gave a 528I a spanking it would never forget.
    The guy initiated the call and all he was looking at during the race was my TLS doulble pipes.

    One up for us FWD.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Given that the CTS-V and the 530i are within seven pounds of each other, with similar sized brakes and tires, and assuming that both cars have an ABS system that keeps the rubber on the ragged edge of lockup, and that both cars have the "Brake Assist" feature (I'm not sure about the CTS-V), my guess is that it would be a very close contest to see which car would slow down from 128 to about 70 the quickest.

    All else being equal (which of course it never is), the car with the better weight distribution should handle the maneuver better than the one with the front end weight bias. Would the CTS-V have acquitted itself as well? Maybe, maybe not.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    oooo - a TL beat the 200 hp machine of a 528. When you can pull on the 540i then you might impress someone
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    That's assuming this guy with his 528 was actually looking to race too. Seems many people think you're looking for trouble when you're just out and about.

    I get people all the time spinning their engines and glancing at my at stoplights. The light changes and then they take off. Have fun, bud. I like to play with my car but in SD racing or giving the appearance of racing is a sure ticket. No thanks.

    That said, once in awhile I'm at the front of a light, I know the two lanes become one quickly and somebody pulls up beside me doing the creep thing as they await the light change. We all know he wants to shoot out and take the lead.

    When I'm feeling nice, I let it slide. Feisty...I like to let him accelerate and I keep pace for a bit as his engine screams - seems SUV drivers do this the most often. As we build speed I finally just wave and punch it. Bu-bye...

    Silly people.

    I just know one of these days a kid with a turbo-charged protege will smack me in the face as he scampers away faster.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Depending on the year, the E39 528i had either 190 or 193 hp. Regardless of which one was the subject of the above abject humiliation; BillyPerks, you da man now!

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "The TL is nose heavy, but still stops faster than the 530 and is neck and neck with last gen's sport package 530 on the skidpad (the 2004 is a big improvement, however)."

    The TL has turned in some extremely disappointing stops from 70-0. Was it the R&T article that listed 188 feet? The 530 certainly stops faster than that from 70 to 0. So I don't see how it stops faster than the 530.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    STD VS STD 60-0 Edmunds stats of :
    BMW 530i 119.33 ft
    Acura TL 115.96 ft or msn auto 114 ft

    You dont see it while everybody else does :-)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I see good numbers on the TL in once place and see them very inconsistent everywhere else. The car does seem to give every tester a sub 6 0-60 so i'll give the car props for that. Just be careful when stomping it from a stop...people in other forums are saying if you're next to a TL and it launches it will veer right and one guy almost got slammed. I now stay to the left of TL's when appoaching lights - they are everywhere now. And a racy bunch too ;)
  • glenfordglenford Member Posts: 138
    ah, I think we're all missing it - great reaction times, s. Best car in the world would just run the guy over if you didn't react. (Sorry - that's a personal comment, we probably have to delete it :-)
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    Me and my friend who owns a Mustang GT 2001 (M/T) with 28k mileage gave our car a try out last weekend. Guess who won :-), but I think its not fair to try a 3 years old car against a new car and we only tested them until 90 mph. He brought the car for a check last monday.

    That was the first time I floored it so fast and it was fast and scary cuz I didnt know how it would react but it turned out fine. Other car may react differently just be very careful but not mine. It could be true what chris said bcuz of the enormous power.

    I dont see much TL in chicago, 2 or 3 the most since Jan 04, maybe in other part of the country. I know they would be racy bcuz of the engine power and its sound. It sounds like a soft jet engine underneath not loud but cool. Unlike my friends car its so loud.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Teaser pics of Infinitis that'll be at the NYAS is at www.infiniti.com.

    I believe that the last interior pic is of the M35/45. And the second to last is of the Q45 or maybe the M35/45 as well. Really can't tell for sure though.
  • kphkph Member Posts: 40
    Wow - not here in the Twin Cities. Ordered mine around the first of the year, and get it the end of this month. So far, while watching all the time for them, I have seen a sum total of two (2) 2004 TLs on the open road.

    Wish I would see more of them - but know I will still be unusual when I get behind the wheel soon...
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2682&ca- tegoryId=7

    According to that, BMW will start producing the next 3 sometime this year, but the bulk of the production will start in 2005. Leads me to believe that it'll be available in the U.S. maybe mid 2005 as a 2006 model.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    chrisboth is correct. The TL is all over the place. Sure we can quote the best stat from every magazine, but the TL has turned in some disappointing numbers in some reviews. CR has the TL stopping in 130 the 330 in 131. CR has the TL to 60 in 6.7 the 330 in 6.6. At any rate depending on the review these numbers vary a bit.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Acura TL
    Car&Driver 0-60: 5.7 secs.
    MotorWeek 60-0: 114 ft.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    yeap TL is all over the place said by BMW lover lol
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Yeah, especially when one is auto and one is manual, as it would for any car. It would help to say whether the time was with auto or manual.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    ACURA TL
    S&S mopar muscle 0-60: 5.7 secs.
    Fantacy car dot com 0-60: 5.7 secs.
    Car&driver 0-60: 5.7 secs.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    so i guess i don't need to reply about the stopping distance of the TL being better than the 530? I mean, since Danny listed a source and you listed a source and the one I was going to quote was C&D. So all 3 of us are in agreement now, I assume.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "Yeah, especially when one is auto and one is manual, as it would for any car. It would help to say whether the time was with auto or manual. "

    The difference between the auto and 6MT fot the G35 is about .2 secs to 60 and .1-.2 in 1/4 mile times. That's the beauty of the G auto having the Q 5AT in it. It's not as BMW smooth, but you'll notice a big drop for the 3 auto as well. The tranny can handle 345 ++ HP so that may be the diff..who knows. Honda autos have never been a wonder of mankind...The 6sp on the other hand is perfect to shift..
  • bxd20bxd20 Member Posts: 68
    '04 CTS-V: 70 to 0 in 165 ft.
    '04 530i: 70 to 0 in 167 ft.

    Source: C&D

    2 ft isn't much. It could be the difference between a cool day and a warm one. Point is, they are competitive.

    As far as the CTS-V being an also-ran, don't think that Cadillac will stick with the 400hp LS6 forever. The new LS2 will make its way over and power will go up in the next year or two.

    brian
  • gpwatfrdgpwatfrd Member Posts: 76
    I am not here to dispute those numbers, but in Shipo's situation I would take the 530i any day over the CTS-V(and I am NO BMW lover). He slowed down from 128-70 and made an emergency lane change. That is not 70-0.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I like the caddy somewhat but i'll take the bimmer in that situation too
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    Hands down give me the CTS-V over a 530i w/Sport Pkg. Now I would have a much harder choice with a 545i w/Sport Pkg. Last night I saw a brand new CTS-V from the famous San Fernando Valley "Casa De Cadillac". It was beautiful Raven Black. with chrome wheels and sharp as a tack.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Words you don't read often:

    "[The CTS] was beautiful..." Especially not in California. Can't they take away a license in CA if you buy American? :)
  • diceman88diceman88 Member Posts: 3
    First of all, let me say I think the 530i is one of the finest cars ever made. However, your example of driving 128mph on the autobahn and making a panic stop is hardly a good reason for somebody to buy one here in America. If you were going 128 mph here you could expect a ride in the back of a police cruiser while wearing a nice new set of bracelets. You would get zero sympathy in the courts of law and public opinion, even if someone did pull right out in front of you.

    The important thing is you enjoy your car. Everything else is just "My dad can beat up your dad". I find it humorous that 30+ year old professionals worry about getting beaten in a stoplight dragrace by another 30+ year old in a $30-50K car. What are we, 17 year old punks in riced out Civics and Neons?

    I like my TSX, I really don't care if anyone else does. I bought it to impress me, not you. :)
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    Hands down give me the CTS-V over a 530i w/Sport Pkg. Now I would have a much harder choice with a 545i w/Sport Pkg. Last night I saw a brand new CTS-V from the famous San Fernando Valley "Casa De Cadillac". It was beautiful Raven Black. with chrome wheels and sharp as a tack.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    well, I won't speak for everyone, but I'm not ashamed to say it.

    YES! Many times, I DO turn into a 17-year-old punk when I get behind the wheel (well, 17 in attitude, 30 in experience). And I don't know many enthusiasts who aren't the same way. Even when I'm in the passenger seat with my wife driving, I'm constantly thinking "geez! how can you let that guy do that to you?!" or "awww.. come on! step on it!!"

    ;)

    There is no other situation in life where i act quite the same.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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