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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    I did not order that option - too much $$s for too little use here.
    Had a portable w/maps for the trip.
    - Ray
    Managed to find where we needed to go.....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    No way Jose.
    I am quiet satisfied with the beak, 5 speed and rear.
    Secondly, why would I trade up for Blind Spot, Ventilated Seats and an extra gear?
    I know the value of money, the dealer would win, I would be left with a higher payoff balance and just for what-keeping up with the Jones?
    You need to get in contact with me and I will give you a few pointers on the value of money-remember Economics 101?
    Be content with what you have, your day will come for a upgrade. :)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    How right you are. So many people "upgrade" their vehicle for the wrong reasons & cannot afford to do so. They'll dump their gas guzzling SUV for a fuel efficient Hybrid to "save money on gas," but don't take into account the cost of depreciation. Or they'll trade in their current ride for one that has a lower payment, not counting the fact that they now have an additional 5 years of payments to make.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Never said you should upgrade to the new TL just pointing out your current state, Acura sold the 2011 Tl for only a few months before launching the 12 because it wanted to move on and advance the brand. But did you say bonus season is coming and you wanted a e63 or e550?
    Being such a hitter I thought you'd be able I withstand the lease break hit, with the bonus coming soon. I do agree breaking a lease or flipping a car ever year is prob not a smart idea. In my economics 101 class they did not go over this as it's more common knowledge but happy to hear your Eco 101 recap at anytime.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I had a co-worker do this in the last gas crunch, she traded in a big SUV, payments of $499/m for a toyota Prius, new payments $599/m her commute is all freeway, so she get better gas mileage, however she isn't saving that $100 difference because of her driving habit, she doesn't drive 65, more like 80... So she isn't getting the mileage she should. After 2 years she finally realized she made a big mistake.... BTW, insurance cost on hybrids are higher then that of non-hybrids.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    How much advance is the 2012 from the 2011?
    Secondly, let me reiterate for the 100th time- my car is on finance, do you want me to scan the contract on Edmunds?
    I have never heard of anyone leasing for five years, either that person is financially incapable or just bluntly speaking, an imbecile.
    When I mentioned in my post (many moons ago) about my next purchase, I meant the distant future, not immediately.
    Lastly, please stop talking about my bonus, just let it go or if you need one, spend less time on Edmunds and try to improve your financial modelling skills- that way you can properly cover your sector/companies and make your company some money.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Mark you posting is right on, shoppers have short memory and most people shop for price and that is it. I would have to say, that the people who post on these forum make up less then 10% of buyers who really understand the brand and the cars. But you have ignore the fact that the Acrua RL has been a disaster for Acrua from day one. For $56K there are better cars out there people to chose from.

    For me the TSX is a great car, however it needs a new engine, take the engine from the RDX and detune it to about 220hp and have it run on regular gas, this would transform the TSX in the car Arcua needs.

    If Acrua is going to follow other companies, then the TL needs a turbo I4, if BMW can do it, so can Arcua, at the current RDX turbo and add some HP to it.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    For me the TSX is a great car, however it needs a new engine, take the engine from the RDX and detune it to about 220hp and have it run on regular gas, this would transform the TSX in the car Arcua needs.

    IMHO the previous TSX was the car Acura needs - not the bloated up, numb newer TSX.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Bill, its not worth the trouble trying to get sweeny to understand what you are posting, he makes it a habit of trying to make the other person look like a fool.

    In Sweeny's world it is OK to place 4K down on a lease to get that uber low lease payment.... So maybe you should teach him car econ 101... Leases are not for everybody they work well if you can AFFORD the car, and I don't mean the payments, however sweeny doesn't think so...

    Wow talk about two different cars the E65 and E550, either one is a nice ride.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    (Just replying to the most recent message... this post is for ALL):

    Let's tone down the personal comments and the hostility. Really, the best course of action for posts or members that you don't care for is to just SKIP them and/or avoid responding.

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  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    you might be right, however one can not go back. I would think if the current TXS had more HP (and not coming from a V6) the car would be better then it currently is.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    What is this "car payment" thing that everyone is talking about here?

    It sounds like you give somebody money every month and every few years, the amount gets bigger? And it never goes away for the rest of your life?

    This sounds like a horrible idea...
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Again nurse I never mentioned anything about specific lease downpayments. I would defer to you on leasing as it seems you are the BMW leasing expert and I'm sure you got great deals on the 328 and the 535 you speak of. The 4k thing was never uttered by me- as I have told you in past posts - remember the ones you rebutted as "leader ads" when I told you they were posted on the company websites.

    The fool comment is pretty funny- I think with each post you prove that point on your own.

    On the afford comment - its an interesting debate - if you take financing and leasing out of the market place (obv this is not the case) how many people can actually afford in straight cash terms these autos.? Finance rates and used car values really make these cars available to the masses.

    Billy market closed up 4% today.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Hey Fed, some people make car payments and come people do not. I have to say, our next purchase will have a payment behind it but not a very big one, should have it paid off in a year and half... Not bad for a 60K car...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny you have stated that I could have had a 335i for extra $10-20/m if I leased the car, since you assumed I leased it. You kept posting the "Lease specials" from Infiniti however it takes $4K out of pocket to get those lease specials, that is not smart buying... Use someone else's money to lease a car and take that $4K and use it for something else.. Lie maybe the stock market..

    BTW, you asked how do people pay cash for cars... Three ways, they saved up to pay cash, second, made a killing in the stock market or third mommy and or daddy gave them the money.

    For me it was #1 and #2. When I got out of college, I kept the car I had, a 65 Mustang coupe for about 10 yrs post graduation, at that time I would place $300/m in a savings account, Then bought Harley stock before the stock split (doubled my money) then split again (double it again) and finally split again (doubled it again.)

    I was able to buy my first BMW cash, and a house in San Diego (this was before the big boom in housing prices) Since then done very well in the stock market and flipping houses (stopped flipping houses for now.) People can buy cars for cash, but there are sacrifices one needs to make to do it.
    So my 2011 BMW was bought cash as well as the 2005. I take what the money payment would be and stick it in the bank so in 6 years I'll have enough to pay cash for the next one.

    This is how people pay cash for cars.

    BTW, the stock market has been very good to flightnurse the past 2 days, got to love when an airline files Chp 11...
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Nice story- wow - I'm out
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Not everyone can afford to pay cash for each vehicle. However, the key, as in all financial decisions, is to manage your debt. My goal has been to never be upside-down in a vehicle regarding value:debt ratio. Why does the amount have to get bigger?

    I financed my last car for 5 years (due to unknown future financial circumstances) and paid it off in 4. When that was done, I had a nice downpayment that I chose to use to pay for an entire vehicle in cash. My SO, on the otherhand, has a vehicle he financed for 5 years, almost 4 years into it and it's almost paid off and he intends to keep it. If you're not upside-down and don't have visions of getting the most you can possibly afford, financing is a reasonable solution to not having the full whack.

    (Stock market was nice to me too, especially Ford, which our stock club bought for something like $4 and sold a few months later for $7)

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Interesting - what if finance rates were 10% ? Would you have financed or looked for a lesser car?

    I agree smart thinking needs to go into taking down a material purchase - and given the current environment of higher used car values and lower bank rates are getting people into cars they would not normally afford. Maybe there is more to this... Thoughts

    Btw new car sale numbers very strong for the Americans, Germans, toyo an Nissan. Honda still struggling with the flooding problems.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    A lesser car. No one NEEDS a fantastic car. I chose to do that this time around and purchased a "lesser car" in lieu of financing, so that I could pay cash. Last time I didn't have quite enough cash for a "lesser car," plus I was driving a WHOLE lot at that point in time. Now I'm not. It was worth it back then to finance, and it didn't come close to stretching my budget.

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  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    What do you mean if rates were 10%, they are for many people. When you see those "special" rates from manufactures they are for "well qualified" buyers. Which is terms mean credit score greater then 700.

    When it comes to keeping up with the Jones, people will pay to say in the car that makes them feel good... It might not be the top of the line model though.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Interesting pt, I didn't consider people without super credit. Are people walking in and leasing/financing 40k at 10%plus rates still? Or are theses people now saving, given the current Eco climate? Given recent car sales it would suggest they are not saving. If that's the case we are all in big trouble.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    A lesser car. No one NEEDS a fantastic car. I chose to do that this time around and purchased a "lesser car" in lieu of financing, so that I could pay cash.

    I read in an article once that if one person buys a new car every three years, trades in the old one, versus another person who buys a 2 yo car and drives it 10 years, repeatedly, and invests the money saved versus person #1s case, then person #2 will retire at 65 with a $million dollars saved by NOT buying new cars all the time.

    I'm somewhere in the middle, buying new cars but always driving them 150K miles and 8-10 years or so. But I really do appreciate those who buy/lease new cars often, as it helps the economy. :shades:
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I think a lot of us here do have excellent credit that affords us top tier financing, but yes many people out there are taking out 7 - 8 year loans with 10+ % interest.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I used to be a new car every 3 years kind of guy. That changed once I had kids and a mortgage.

    If only more people knew how liberating it feels to pay off a car and keep driving it payment free. Every time I think about owning a new car (Audi TT RS anyone?), I go in the garage and appreciate what I already have.

    We are a brainwashed, instant gratification, consumer society.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    We used to do the new car thing every three years as well. It's hard to point a finger at exactly what changed, but we ended up driving our two previous cars to nearly 200,000 miles each. Funny thing, we now have two relatively new cars (one bought in November of 2008 and one bought last month), and the interest rate on them is so low (2.9% and 1.9% respectively) we would have been foolish to do anything beyond putting the trade-in value of the old car "down" on the two new ones.
  • wirelesswireless Member Posts: 47
    Are you saying you've gotten better than 1.9/2.9% on your money (that you didn't use to buy the cars) since buying the cars? Where have you got it then?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,184
    Kept a car for 6-7 years, well after it's paid off.... and leased every three years, with zero down....

    Can't say that I felt superior to anyone else, either way... ;)

    If you have good credit and are responsible, then the difference is not that important. It's not a character flaw to buy what you can afford. Plus, if you don't put any value on driving a newer car, then why buy new in the first place?

    Some people play golf, some buy cars...

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Are you saying you've gotten better than 1.9/2.9% on your money (that you didn't use to buy the cars) since buying the cars?"

    Decidedly so.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I completely hear ya on that front my friend. I wrote a check for my 2001 Prelude back in April '02, I financed my '10 TSX (5.65%) when I bought it back in August '09 & refinanced it @ 3.44% a year later. When we bought our '11 Pilot back in May (in anticipation of our baby girl, Whitney who was born on Tuesday), I financed it for 60 months @ 2.9%.

    I've only got 3 years left on the TSX. As much as I would love to trade it in or sell it one day for a CPO 335xi, I know the smart thing to do is to try & keep it for 10 years (5 w/o payments).

    Once I pay off the TSX, I'll be able to double up on my Pilot payments & pay that off early.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Tuesday, as in 4 days ago? Congratulations!
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Congrats on the kid. Exciting times enjoy. Tsx 2010 wooh - well atleast you have the kid.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Thanks for the kind words guys. Yes, this past Tuesday my wife gave birth to our little princess who happens to be the 1st girl & 3rd child in our family.

    Sween - buy me a G37X & I'll gladly dump my TSX. If the G37 X would have gotten 1 more stinkin MPG (combined), I would've bought one back in '09. I bought my TSX using a $3500 cash for clunkers credit.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited December 2011
    I would not call the tsx a clunker but again congrats on the baby girl. They are the best.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    The clunker was a 1990 E30 BMW 325iA coupe. It only had 82,000 miles on it, but was neglected. I had a new radiator put in, a new set of tires, & an alignment. The car drove great as a BMW should, but it had trouble passing New York State inspection. After it passed, the mechanic said to me that I should either find a donor engine or start paying him to rip out things & replace them with new parts. I knew it was time to "throw the towel in.". Cash 4 Clunkers came out & I had a 2007 X3 with 38,000 miles (with a year to go & 45K miles allowed for the lease).

    I loved the 3 series, but it was out of my price range & too small.

    I drove a Mini Cooper S w/ a 6 speed & didn't like it at all.

    The G37X which I really dig didn't meet the gas mileage requirements for me to get the $3500 credit.

    I drove by the Acura dealer & drove the TSX. I thought it drove like a big, 4 door version of my beloved 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH. I didn't like the electric power steering, but the car was to be my wife's daily driver. It has a huge trunk, room in the back for child safety seats, had thickly bolstered seats, a great engine & transmission combination, transmitted some road feel, I was impressed with the suspension dampening. I bought the car and am extremely happy with it.

    Is a 328i a better driver's car? Absolutely. Is the G37 a balanced handling road rocket? You bet.

    Is my TSX 75-80% of those cars on public roads? I certainly think so.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    When I bought my BMW I was talking to the sales guy he told me that BMW will finance without stellar credit of a score of 640, but you pay, he quoted me about 8%. However used cars are higher.

    People will buy just to keep up with others. Now an on interesting note, the same sale guy told me that when it comes to the 6 and 7 series cars, he will have more people pay cash for those car then fiance them or lease them.

    5 series its a 50/50 split buy vs lease.
    3 series is 70/30 lease vs buy.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Makes sense - would guess 7 series closer to 70 owned vs lease.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    People will buy to keep up with others? How about "I specifically know of a case where my (friends, neighbors, cousins, uncle etc) bought x car because they were jealous that y person bought z car". Smh.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited December 2011
    Possible interpretation is 3-series is "entry" level, which attracts more people who don't really have the money, so they buy it on payment and 5-series is already out of reach for them.

    It would be interesting to know what is percentage of those 3-series leases with terms like 10K/yr with 4K down - that would be a giveaway of "bologna sandwich budget with caviar taste, I have no money, no clue, but I really want that stuff" people.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    People would not admit that openly. All you can do is read the signs, such as how much they make and how much they buy. I know personally several people who would buy stuff they shouldn't - all on debt. Zero savings, zero hedges, just good stuff in the house and house well beyond what they can afford, too. All they talk about is next boat, next sound system. Then occasionally they mention paying off the debt, but it lasts for about two minutes.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Good point- one of the reasons American economy is failing.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited December 2011
    . . ."bologna sandwich budget with caviar taste, I have no money, no clue, but I really want that stuff" people.

    Their number is legion.

    A number of years ago we lived next door to a couple who "liked nice things." They, in fact, had many more nice things than we did (or do to this day for that matter), but the next few years demonstrated that having them paid for, such that they could be kept, was a whole 'nother thing.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Leasing a car is like renting an apartment. Neither is bad and both have their place. Buying on credit is a personal decision.

    But one has to be responsible whether it is a house, car, work of art, etc. And I don't think people spend money irresponsibly to keep up with the jones'. People just spend money irresponsibly. Just look at the foreclosures.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited December 2011
    You're right, there can be many motivations. "Keeping up" is just one of possibilities. A lot of it may not be linked to particular Jones's, but rather to media image of a successful person. When you looked at lifestyles of characters from many shows and compare with real-life earnings power of their jobs, there is often a large disconnect. However, many people would take that as a validation for their acquisitions. And of course commercials.

    Finishing on lease - it's not the lease itself that is a giveaway, it's the terms. If somebody leases at 0 down for mileage they are actually driving then that's a choice, when they put 4 grand down, 10K miles/year and their commute is 15 miles each way, you know that having car on the driveway was more important that actually driving it. Don't get me wrong - it's their money (or in some cases - it's their not having the money) and their choice to make. But if they wanted to borrow 10 bucks from me, I would automatically assume the likely actual choice here is losing 10 bucks or losing their graces.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited December 2011
    with the new 328 coming out soon - and sporting a 4cyl engine, that outperforms the current 6, does this change the way we look at this ELLPS foruM?

    I know audi droped the 6 for the A4 last year, another name which is debateable in this forum has a v6 but 95% of its cars leave with 4cyl- could be interesting to see if nissan goes with a 4 at some point, same with toyota..
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited December 2011
    "with the new 328 coming out soon - and sporting a 4cyl engine, that outperforms the current v6, does this change the way we look at this ELLPS foruM?"

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 3-Series has never been endowed with a V6; yes, no?

    The above said, as I understand it, the new F30 M3 will feature a blown V6 for motivation.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    BMW doesn't use V6, it uses I6 (six in line).

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Thankfully we're not here to discuss people's motivations, just to discuss the cars. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "BMW doesn't use V6, it uses I6 (six in line)."

    My point exactly. Unfortunately it seems this is about to change as BMW will start using blown V6 engines for the next generation of M3s.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited December 2011
    A friend of mine frequently uses the phrase: "There's no replacement for displacement." He is appalled at the number of cars that may offer more than 6 cylinders but rarely sell (or stock) anything other than "blown" I4's, I6's or V6's (both naturally aspirated and forced induction.)

    I tell him that there IS a replacement for displacement and that it is "volumetric efficiency."

    The 211HP 258 pound feet I4 in my 2009 A4 was both quick and fast -- with a 6spd automatic; in the new A4's the engine's rating remains but the car is even quicker, faster and more efficient due to an 8spd automatic.

    In favor of the V8 S4, Audi switched to a super-charged V6; in the S8 Audi has elected to drop 2 cylinders (from 10 to 8) and produce an engine that is both more efficient and more powerful -- considering its size the S8 is a sipper, not a guzzler.

    Only one Acura engine is boosted (the I4 in the RDX), and as far as I know there are no Infiniti engines that are either super or turbo charged.

    The V6 in my 2012 Acura is, frankly, pretty much a basic (but buttery smooth) fuel injected V6 of the modern era. I was wondering what would happen if Acura (Honda) would change to FSI (fuel stratified injection) and super or turbo charge it? Seems to me that with very little effort the engine used today if brought to the current state of the blown art, would put out at least 20% more HP and 10% more torque all the while showing perhaps another +2 MPG's. Then, if they would upgrade the fine 6 speed auto to a current gen 8 speed, any Acura so blessed would go from its current potency (which is very good and is, at this time, Acura's most powerful engine [the 3.7, i.e.]) to high output potency -- in the engine department -- coupled with always being near or at the operating sweet spot due to the increase in the number of gears.

    Think if Infiniti, currently without any forced induction engine offerings, were to begin offering their engines with a super or turbo charger (and also keeping their 7 speed autos) -- makes my head spin.

    The Germans (and even the CTS-V) would have something more to worry about, with all these G's, M's, TL's and RL's armed for bear.

    Will Acura or Infiniti ever up their engine game to this level, or will they take down-tuned engines and alter their breathing and computer maps to get them slightly better than they are now with a touch more grunt in the 0-60 dept? BTW, Infiniti already has a V8, so its creds don't need much engineering brain-power to at least be able to claim "we have V8's" even as they are bested by their very own 6's and 4's.

    I used to assume the car mfgrs read the engthusiasts magazines and the postings here on Edmunds and elsewhere. But, apparentely they don't. If they did and if they were swayed by what is said in both places, well you think they would pay attention and respond (even if only a little bit) to some of the legitmate critiques made by the authors.

    Audi and BMW are unlikely to loose credibility from a "sporting intentioned" family perspective. If someone want's to be certain their car hails from a lineage that includes "winners" and a widely accepted high performance heritage, look no further.

    Acura, perhaps standing all alone, may be shooed from the ELLPS (a.k.a. Premium) board and "chat room" based on its historic but currently all but gone lack of focus. Yet the perception that Acura is a bit fuzzy in the perception of premium department remains for them. The ZDX certainly didn't help and allowing the RL to, more or less, atrophy away hasn't helped either. Of all of these car brands, Acura is in the most peril of losing its way.

    Infiniti and Lexus are mostly safe bets to perservere as players in the ELLPS and LPS field, from what I can tell (although Lexus seems much more the luxury choice than the performance choice, but they are doing a yeoman's job to make this perception go away somewhat.)

    Mercedes, too, a safe bet if what you really want is a bonafide member of the LPS club.

    Volvo is, for the most part, doing what I think Acrua should do -- and that is building a performance image to go hand-in-hand with their safety image. They are about in the same position as Acura, the primary difference is Volvo seems to be really trying to put on a performance face these days.

    Finally the iconic American brand, Cadillac, has demonstrated, these past 3 - 5 years, a penchant for creating an image that may not quite be able to stand toe-to-toe with BMW or Mercedes, for example, but they do keep sneaking up on it with ever more interesting designs and power plants -- including volumetrically enhanced (super-charged) models like the CTS-V.

    We are in a time of inflection -- 2013 model cars are right around the corner and they continue to excite and delight (with the possible exception of Acura).

    So here I sit a guy with a history of 29 Audi's, 3 BMW's, 3 VW's and 1 Acura -- wondering why in the hell I got the Acura. But, truth be told, the Acura is not a boring drive, quite the contrary in fact; however, it is somewhat boring to look at and, that more than anything, may be the crux of the matter.

    :confuse:
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited December 2011
    New fuel efficiency standards pushed German manufacturers into new areas of smaller blown engines. It's probably both US and Euro driven. I don't think BMW is going I4 turbo because they want to. They do it because they have to.

    It makes me wonder if lack of such moves on part of Lexus, Infiniti and Acura is because they are considered parts of their parent companies' fleets. If this is the case, it would give them distinct advantage, as lux customer doesn't care about fuel efficiency to same extent as non-luxury. It's not completely non-issue, but it is not a big one.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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