Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse · December 2011

Are you saying that BMW is being a 2 liter diesel? 320d???

flightnurse · December 2011

Interesting to hear that, however if you lived here why would you drive 80 miles RT? would you live in Casa Grande?

shipo · December 2011

"Are you saying that BMW is being a 2 liter diesel? 320d???"

Yes, that is my understanding; there are supposedly two different 2.0 liter diesel 320d versions being released to the market, one a higher mileage version and one a higher power version. That said, it remains to be seen if both will make it here to the States.

sweendogy · December 2011

Good question would love to see a manual awd version - one can dream.

Internal thought "Infiniti can you build a manual g37xs before manuals go the way of the north American redtailed puffin"

flightnurse · December 2011

Shipo that is good news, with the way today's diesels run this should be a great combo, just hopefully BMW wont price it too high.

nyccarguy · December 2011

That was my main problem with the E90 335d. They tried to go upmarket with it thinking maybe people would buy a 335d over a 335i. Hopefully a small diesel will be offered price comparable to the 328i. Oh, & please offer diesel with a stick & Xdrive.

nyccarguy · December 2011

Uh-oh, that's 2 things we agree on in the same post.

I'd like Infiniti to also offer a G37X w/ a 6 speed stick

kdshapiro · December 2011

I have a little piece of the rock outside of Phoenix.

sweendogy · December 2011

http://m.caranddriver.com/article.rbml?id=http://blog.caranddriver.com/?p-71672

Goodnight TL or TSx. Acura finally getting it - After all those rants over the years . The bad sales numbers, the styling, the performance. Return of the legend......And a new Nsx.

tlong · December 2011

Wow, hopefully Acura is going to improve a bit. They've really descended since the redesigns of the TL and TSX.

flightnurse · December 2011

I have been a very big fan of the NSX since day one. I just haven't been able to walk up to the table and throwdown 30K for the one I wont (post 2002) mostly because of lack of garage space, however with the purchase of my new home (4 car garage) a NSX is in order. Now if I can only find post 2002, yellow with black interior with a stick....

nyccarguy · December 2011

Looks like its getting WORSE! This ISX is a guided up Civic. The next RDX is just a V6 powered CRV, no SH-AWD, no 4 cyl turbo?

sweendogy · December 2011

Rut row.

Guess they are not reading this blog - we should remove the tsx as penalty- lets add a Buick - hosts ...hello

markcincinnati · December 2011

New Acura line up: 3 cars, 2 CUV's 1 Super car.

SMALL - ISX - a deluxe Civic (no SH-AWD apparently).
MEDIUM - TL - (maybe, MAYBE renamed) can't tell if it will remain this size or shrink or grow
LARGE - RL or maybe LEGEND (as large, interior that is, as a BMW 7 series)

RDX - based on CR-V, (no SH-AWD apparently).
MDX - redesigned and will hit the market in calendar 2013 (as a '14?)

NSX - one V6 (direct injection) 2 electric motors (for the rear)

The cars will not stress performance and apprently Acura owners #5 most desired content is the sound system (does that mean the ELS system will go away?)

Hard to tell exactly what NOT stressing performance means -- keep the current 305HP offering and make it get better MPG's? Tune the suspensions for comfort rather than handling prowess?

The Acura statement says something about getting away from Honda -- yet two of the 5 cars will be tarted up Hondas (which may be a good thing since the price will, apparently, be low -- but no SH-AWD?) Bummer.

Well, I think the performance of the '12 TL 3.7 SH-AWD Advance is very Audi-like -- will Acura hold the line and NOT improve this, or will the new TL (whatever it may be called) be tuned for a more Buick like ride and not be granted direct injection or a turbo or super-charger (option).

Stating that you WANT to be the best second tier car you can be seems akin to (almost) throwing in the towel.

My wife, lusting for an MDX to replace her FX35 (for the SH-AWD) is rethinking this now.

I am wondering if my '12 is my first and last Acura?

32 months to go.

sweendogy · December 2011

32 months to go - well atleast it's no a pre-2012 with the ugly beak.

markcincinnati · December 2011

It's only a little bit beaky looking -- but I got it because it performed very well, was comfortable, had a great sound system and seemed like the most bang for the buck amongst my choices.

I do enjoy driving it, which was one of the "must have's" for me, too.

Reputation for reliability and durability didn't hurt any either.

nyccarguy · December 2011

I am wondering if my '12 is my first and last Acura?

Mark - I wonder the same thing about my 2010 TSX. I just refinanced it again as I plan to pay it off & keep it for a while. Somebody else is going to have to make one HELLUVA car to make me not buy a BMW next.

Original Loan from dealer was 5.65% for 60 months.
Refinanced after 1 yr @ 3.44% FOR 48 months.
Refinanced again after 2 yrs @ 2.41% for 36 months.

sweendogy · December 2011

Look if your happy with the car and it's not a burden in costs then run it. Those cars a bullets compared to others in the group. It's a euro accord - Honda standard of good reliability. The brand is failing to excite but it's still a Honda and if your refinancing continues you will be at zero % in 2 more rounds.

nyccarguy · December 2011

That's probably the last of refinancing the TSX. Hopefully I'll be able to pay it off in 2 more years, then start doubling up on my Pilot payments to get that Paid off sooner than its original 5 year loan.

Kirstie_H · December 2011

Oh, this discussion gets read every day by at least one host. It's just that I'm not going to waste time re-addressing a topic I've already addressed.

sweendogy · December 2011

My comments were made towards acuras management - But sice you brought it up I Would like to know what it takes to remove a car- I mean we have seen te S60 pop in here after a few of us made comments. -

Kirstie_H · December 2011

There are factors outside of this particular forum that influence vehicles included. One of those factors is the popularity of the vehicles - if we get a lot of searches on a particular make/model, that one is more likely to be included because they're the folks who are looking for information more often.

As for Acura people reading this discussion... who knows? I'm sure they have staff looking at comments on forums all over the 'net, but they don't usually tell us they're around and which discussions they're reading.

sweendogy · December 2011

why would searches on the internet place a car in a specific category here? I would bet the Civic has more searches then say the TSX but that does not mean it should be included. right- and it isnt. We added the S60 only after it was chatted here for almost a full model year, but was clearly gunning for the group from day one- given the reviews and its marketing. Has a car ever been removed?

And ACURA people should be watching and listening to what the buyers want-- internet is a world wide web of knowledge.

Kirstie_H · December 2011

I'm really not going to keep debating and explaining the point. Let it go - it really is NOT that important in the grand scheme of things... in these forums or in real life. We're talking about searches on Edmunds.com.
Vehicles have been shifted from time to time.

sweendogy · December 2011

ok thanks for clearing that up. your right in the grand scheme its not important but why have topics then.

kleiner · December 2011

HA! Thats kinda annoying that you're so impatiant! hehe

markcincinnati · December 2011

We can talk about ALMOST anything we want on this particular forum -- and unless we wander too far off subject or get rude and crude or start making ad hominem statements to others, well, it seems to be tolerated.

At the moment, my interests are somewhat of a strategic or future nature; I am wondering what in the wide wide world of sports Acura means by its statement that it will "de-emphacize"performance (at least that is how it read to me.) Sure, we're talking about ELLPS cars here, but I don't think that suggests that we're not interested in performance.

I am interested in these cars, at this point in time, due to the fact that they give their owners most of the ""L" of the LPS cars and almost all of the "P" (or at least they seem to have up until now.)

If Acura wants to no longer persue "P" does that mean they will focus more on "L"? I mean how can you remain in the Premium class if you are not either heavy on the "L" (Lexus and often Mercedes comes to mind) or heavy on the "P" (and Audi and BMW -- and sometimes even Cadillac -- spring to mind).

It seems Acura is attempting to prep me (if I can be prepped, that is) to accept "good cars," since we're no longer going to even try to make great cars (insofar as lux and/or performance is concerned.)

The 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance seems to embody a lot of performance and a lot of luxury (in the ELLPS world, I mean) at a good price. My TL's content for the dollar seems high -- considering, too, that Acura seems more willing to deal on the selling price than, say, Volvo or Audi.

As I read the variety of "press release" type of communications coming out of Acura these past couple of days, they seem to be saying -- we're going to have 5 really good cars and 1 super car to choose from. We are going to build, mostly, "really good cars" -- we're going to focus on value, green-ness and that Acura DNA (whatever that is).

They continue by saying, "Our customers tell us they don't buy our cars first and foremost for performance -- and even a great sound system is #5 on our surveyed customer's list."

I am interested in hearing from you on this topic and others and about other manufacturers. Hell, I'd bet I've had more Audis that the vast majority of folks and I would be glad, damn glad, to chat and opine and bloviate on that subject too.

Let's get back to talking about the cars. OK?

:confuse:

tlong · December 2011

Let it go - it really is NOT that important in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed. It's tiring to have some of those posts clogging up this forum.

sweendogy · December 2011

Thanks for posting Part of the post.

sweendogy · December 2011

Took me a while to he threw that- I will as soon as you do one of 2 things- keep a post to less the 1k words or come up with a topic. The choice is yours.

flightnurse · December 2011

I see the Acrua CSX here in PHX this time of year with the snow birds in town. I found it interesting that Canadians will pay extra for a fancy Civic.... Then we have people complain that the TSX is a fancy Accord. I'd take the TSX over the CSX anyday.

markcincinnati · December 2011

My last post was well under 1K words, it was 450.

rayainsw · December 2011

'...it was 450.'
Even if over 1,000 words, of all those who post here,
his make the most sense.
To me.
FWIW.
- Ray
Sometimes guilty of long posts -
that no one is ever obliged to read....

billyperksii · December 2011

I agree-the guy is an excellent writer, not that I agree with his take on Acura but I do like reading his opinions and insights.

PS- Mark, I am not kissing up, just been honest.

kdshapiro · December 2011

The "bromance" is somewhat, uh...nauseating....lol.

billyperksii · December 2011

Almost repulsive uh KD-:)

sweendogy · December 2011

http://www.wheels.ca/Consumer%20News/article/785640

Above why.......Canadians are paying more for cars and Acura responded by offering a car that is a civic but with more features- they did this to sell cars. you can also use google to find lease prices of one manufacture vs another - watch out for "leader" ads, thou.

Tsx is a euro accord- fact. See below.
http://euro.honda.com.au/

Internet might be around for a while - use it wisely.

markcincinnati · December 2011

I am guilty of being:

Often wrong. . .but. . .

Never uncertain.

My "take" on Acura is based soley on what I read (in the present tense) and what I have read (previously.)

I read, with a dubious eye, the Automobile magazine article wherein an Audi S4 was "tested against" an Acura TL SH-AWD. No way you say?

I recall my initial reaction as, "yea, sure the two cars finished neck-and-neck, pull the other one." Read the article for yourself -- just google it.

Sitting there on my couch reading the Automobile article as a person who was at the time driving his 29th Audi (that either my wife, my company or I had either leased or purchased) since 1977 and also knowing that I was soon due to turn in my 2009 Audi A4 2.0T quattro sport, I thought, "I'll test drive all the ELLPS cars that I can, and that includes the TL."

It didn't hurt any that Motor Week also had a favorable take on the 2012 TL 3.7 AWD as did most of the automobile magazines I subscribe to (Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track) and read (add to the list European Car and Popular Mechanics.)

My wife after 3 BMW's (and many Audi's) had leased an Infiniti FX35 AWD Premium last December; and, since we had spent some time at the Infiniti dealer here in Cincinnati, I had taken several G's and M's out for at least four test drives to see if they really were the "Japanese BMW's." For the most part, they are, I discovered.

So you see, I had read all the magazines, participated in the Audiworld and Edmunds forums for years and had started test driving cars in the ELLPS and LPS class. I was um, an "amateur expert" on the subject matter.

The confluence and influence of all the above events got me to test drive an Acura MDX, RDX, ZDX and TL SH-AWD [Advance], an Audi A4 2.0T [Prestige], S4 ('11) [Premium Plus], A5, A6 ('11 and '12) and A7, a BMW 3X, 5X, X3, X5 and X6, a Cadillac CTS/4 3.6 Performance Luxury, a Honda Crosstour, an Infiniti G37X and M37X, a Volvo S60 T6 and a VW Passat CC with the VR6 engine/AWD and a VW Toureg. I probably test drove some other cars like a Taurus SHO, a Genesis and a Jeep Grand w/a Hemi, but they were never really something I took seriously.

What got me off the "I GOTTA have another Audi" mind-set was the back to back to back to back test drives of a pair of Infinitis (the G and M), an '11 Audi S4, the Cadillac CTS and the '12 Acura TL.

As I recall the order of the tests, the only fact of significance was the fact that I reluctantly, more or less, tested the TL after I had tested the S4 and the CTS.

Other than the lack of interior grab handles for the front seat passengers (which I consider a very important feature for Cadillac to have overlooked), the Cadillac was, er, sublime -- an American Luxury Performance Sedan; the S4 was also very impressive and typifies the German Performance Luxury Sedan -- and the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance (which had the "benefit" of my low expectations) which, from the driver's seat, actually seemed "about as quiet as the Cadillac" and "about as HOT as the Audi S4." What?!? Blasphemy!

If you've taken back to back to back test drives --over the IDENTICAL route, playing the IDENTICAL CD on the sound system and pushing the cars into corners at IDENTICAL speeds -- you will understand how it is possible to see cars you might only have test driven for a lark in a whole new light.

Standouts in the entire bunch (w/o regard to price): the TL, S4, A7, BMW 335 w/x-drive, the M37X w/Technology Package, and the S60 T6. The CTS and the CC get a "quite nice" rating.

If money were no object, I'd probably go for the A7 Prestige or S4 w/sport differential (think of that as the German SH-AWD -- aka torque vectoring.) If money were REALLY no object, I'd probably wait for the upcoming Audi S8 and learn to smoke cigars and swill cognac or grappa.

Money being an object, I narrowed my choices down a bit, but was able to strongly consider an M37X (due to fantastic lease deals) and a '12 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige w/sport pkg. I also considered the Volvo but found them totally unwilling to budge off of sticker (or $1,000 off.) Just because the '12 TL SH-AWD Advance was the sleeper of the bunch (in terms of performance), priced right (at $47,000 as I wanted it) and had enjoyed the Automobile S4 vs TL comparison article, I kept it on my list.

Well cut off my legs and call me shorty -- the TL came in at 87% of MSRP, a low money factor and no-wait for it to be shipped from Europe (it is made here in Ohio) -- no other car even came close to the "value" the TL presented.

I, at the time, ONE time (so far), turned my back on Audi and took the plunge into a non-German car.

The Acura TL does NOT blow me away like the S4 or A7, for instance. Yet, like some wines, the TL does seem to be impressing me more as it "ages" (miles). I do not consider it to be an Audi S4 clone, even though the Automobile article is very complimentary of the TL's performance vs the Audi's. The TL is, as I have written elsewhere, "close to fine" (as if "fine" is a destination.)

I now am at a place where I will probably consider Acura again based on my current experience. Yet the recent press releases about the upcoming Acura line-up is a cause for concern. They seem to be saying, "we're giving up on being a tier-1 Premium Car Company." Time will tell.

If you have not test driven (i.e., a good long test drive) the TL Advance SH-AWD (and ONLY the Advance SH-AWD, not the lesser configurations, and certainly not the FWD version, period) and you are looking to purchase a new car from the ELLPS line-up, I do encourage you to take the long test drive -- even if the somewhat beaky styling puts you off -- of the TL Advance SH-AWD, back to back to back with the cars you are more seriously considering. What can it hurt?

The TL's styling may be too much for you to overcome and perhaps the price I got was a fluke or a once in a lifetime deal -- hence the TL will remain unattractive to YOU no matter how impressively it may perform. Perhaps too, you are a cash buyer and then the Volvo may merit more consideration (I was interested in the lowest lease price I could get and the Acura's discount and money factor were compelling.)

In any case, as I have said, what could it hurt to spend a day test-flogging, or, test-driving three or four very nice cars, including, just for the fun of it, the Acura TL Advance SH-AWD.

Drive it like you live.

Often wrong, but never uncertain,

Mark

:shades:

sweendogy · December 2011

http://drivetofive.wordpress.com/

im guilty of being honest and speaking the truth.

Above is an article about a man and his car- we all talk about current cars
belonging in the group, some very clear, others not so much- but its pretty
clear to me reading this blog and knowing the car he rides and talks of - this was one of the pioneers for this group- and to see what the brand has become over those 500k miles disheartens me. I remember once I got a license 16 years ago the car I wanted was a legend coupe 6 speed, with the souped up Type2? Engine.
I settled for a 89 maxima which in itself was a great car but not the
looker the Acura. My first new car was a 2000 Acura integra gs-r coupe-
redline was almost 9k Rpms and I took it to that level every day- loved the car and the service. After the 3 year lease it was time to get a 4 door, the
original TSX was on the short list and after long debate I bought a jetta gli-
200hp and at the time (2003) it had the vr6 and a 6 speed- it was a close call but price won out. After that day I have never stepped into another Acura dealership- the passion is lost- along with sales numbers. I'm still on acura's mailing list -the email lists exciting developments for the 2012 auto show- lets hope they finally deliver. sorry for long post.

http://links.mkt015.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MzgyMjY3OAS2&r=MjU1MzkxNzYzNjMS1&j=M- - TE4MjM3NDcyS0&mt=1&rt=0

Always right, always certain, always do homework

sween

cdnpinhead · December 2011

on several of these boards, particularly those associated with . . . wait for it, Audis.

He took a pretty significant sabbatical, but now appears to be back to his old ways. Why use 30 words when 300 will do? That said, the 300 will be carefully chosen and very well put together.

Welcome back, Mark.

Of course I'm pleased that he chose to bless the brand of car I picked last time with his attention. However, I'm at the bottom of the Acura food chain while he spends time much higher on the hog (if you'll pardon the very mixed metaphor). Many posts have been written to the effect that the TSX is something of Yugo in terms of its deserving to be discussed here. Oh well. . .

Funnily enough, I used to give him a lot of jazz about the substandard (at least perceived) reliability of Audis vs., well, just about anything else, but particularly Asian vehicles. That he and I share a brand at this point is well beyond surprising.

Times change.

kdshapiro · December 2011

Just goes to show you the ever changing fast world of ELLPS.

A few years ago I would never have dreamed about owning an Infiniti. After renting one for a week, I decided to buy one and forgo the 335.

SO I guess the more things change the more they stay the same!

flightnurse · December 2011

When Acrua came out they were the sport version of Honda, no doubt. Today that isn't true, even though they try and market the car that way.

I had (sheee no tell anyone) a Vigor GS when they came out, I only had it for 2 years. I had 1 Infiniti Q45 (second year of Infiniti) love it, too bad it too Infiniti so long to get back to their roots.

After my Vigor, I went to BMW, and haven't looked back.

fedlawman · December 2011

I wanted a Legend so badly when it first came out. And the 2nd gen Legend Coupe - still gorgeous even today.

When I was in college my girlfriend's dad had a Vigor. I thought it was very nice at the time too.

The TSX is very much like a modern day Vigor - only it performs better in every way.

It's not that Acura has lost it's way. The TSX, TL, RL were a very logical lineup for a near-luxury brand. Time has simply marched on and Acura hasn't kept up. They cannot use the Accord as a platform for their entire lineup any longer, and they cannot market any Civic-based car as an Acura.

A three-car lineup moved upmarket is what Acura needs to compete. Make the TL the entry-level sedan with a choice of engines (base car would be FWD 240 hp I-4 turbo from the RDX, top would be AWD with the 3.5L V-6). Next the RL should be a RWD and AWD 5/7 Series competitor (base engine the 3.5L V-6 and top engine a V-8). Finally, introduce a small RWD luxury-sports coupe/convertible (think M-B SLK or Lexus SC). Same engines as the Legend, but smaller and lighter.

wireless · December 2011

They need to work on their styling first. That's half the battle. I saw a new Acura TL coming and going with the beak/grimace fore and aft. It's ust cringeworthy. No one in that entire company had the nerve to tell them that it looks awful before it was released. Poor Honda.

dino001 · December 2011

If Audi can its sell Golf-based A3, so could Acura sell Civic-based RSX, RIP. The problem is packaging and pricing. There has to be enough separation between the vehicles.

I think TL is a nice vehicle. Don't really care for its nose styling, but that can be fixed. Same with TSX. The problem is at the top - RL is on verge of being irrelevant. I have not seen one in months.

However, their main problem is the line - it's just too short. Their "all inclusive" approach is great for people looking for a good trade-up deal, but does not impress people with money looking to be awed. No coupe, no convertible, no buzz-creating (albeit not necessarily profitable) supercar, no exciting supersedan - that's a big problem for an aspiring luxury manufacturer. Too little choice - premium market likes choice. People with money like to be different from others. Even Lexus has long lines on different packages on their cars.

I think biggest problem for Acura is Honda'a accountants - they probably don't give them enough to develop a real luxury lineup. To understand why one has to look at Honda as a company, where automobiles are just a part of a much bigger structure, within which Acura is just a small line in corporate balance sheet.

rayainsw · December 2011

Briefly:
Noticed when filling the tank this AM,
I passed 3,000 miles over the weekend.
Summary:
Enjoying every [s]mile.
Providing enjoyment [ at least ] commensurate with price paid.
- Ray
Very happy customer.....

fedlawman · December 2011

"If Audi can its sell Golf-based A3, so could Acura sell Civic-based RSX, RIP."

I was actually thinking of the A3 as the perfect entry-level type car for Acura. However, the Civic is an economy car platform and will never have the refinement of the A3 - which, I believe, is really just a smaller previous-gen A4.

Acura's entry-level car needs to be built on the Accord platform - the Civic just cannot be a near-luxury car.

dino001 · December 2011

A3 is based on same platform as previous Jetta and Golf, not A4. If you have ever seen Euro-versions of Golf or Jetta (not the versions they sell here, the ones sold in Europe, i.e. 1.2-1.4 engines, crank windows, econo suspensions, etc.), you'll see it is possible to transform Civic to a point it would not be recognized. It's all about the price, content and having actual development budget.

shipo · December 2011

"I was actually thinking of the A3 as the perfect entry-level type car for Acura. However, the Civic is an economy car platform and will never have the refinement of the A3 - which, I believe, is really just a smaller previous-gen A4."

The A3 is effectively a GTI in Audi clothing; given that the GTI is a hotted up Golf, the original comment regarding the A3 being based upon the lowly Golf is correct. Said another way, there is virtually zero relationship between the A3 and any previous generation A4; that said, the Audi TT and the A3 share a lot of DNA.

ivan_99 · December 2011

If Audi can its sell Golf-based A3, so could Acura sell Civic-based RSX, RIP. The problem is packaging and pricing.

I don't think Audi can sell A3's...and I think packaging and pricing IS their problem as well...in North America anyway. I routinely find 1-2 year old ones on dealer lots for huge discounts.

Last time we (a few of us guys) were out for lunch I pointed out a real nice looking A3 (3.2, real nice rims)...they all commented that it looked like a cheap courier car (a pizza delivery car).

It may be a 'hatch' thing...since these were 'truck' guys. But I think to sell a hatch here you need something that looks different. Similar to the way that SUV's are really mini-vans without sliding doors...it's really the same underneath---but it's an SUV!

But...the A3 sedan (Concept)...which reminds me of the 97 A4...looks compelling

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