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Talking delusional And my house is worth half a milon. :P
After four years you'd be lucky to get $20K for a stripper 328. Unless you got something like 10 grand discount (which I doubt), it was probably base plus one package, no sunroof, no sports, no HID.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Porsche's options are insane. It is cool how customizable the cars are from the factory. My Mom drives a 2011 V6 Cayenne. I think there are only 3 options on it, but one is a $10,000 option package.
It is crazy if you ever look on a Porsche dealer's website to see inventory. Some of them have PDK equipped base boxsters with $70K + MSRPs.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Regarding my 328i, first you are making an assumption that my 328 is a strip down car, MSRP was almost 47K, the GM ordered this car as an experiment and it failed on him. Here in Phoenix, 99% of all 3 series cars (non M cars) are sold with automatics, the GM wanted to see if he ordered a 328i with M sport package, (leather was a free option on my 328) xenon head lights, keyless access, cold weather package, moon roof would sell, and it did't not sale, it sat on the lot for 5 months. I must have hit the showroom at the right time, that is why I got the smoking deal. So yes most base 328 with very little options are selling at mid to low 20s. BTW, the average buyer can not get cars at auction prices so that is a mood point. So currently at one of the local BMW dealers in Phoenix, has 2 BMW 328s with the M sport package with 40 and 49K miles are asking 28 and 30K for them. Mine will have less then 40K and keep in pristine condition with all the right option.
Now, on the resale: I'm no expert, I just sold a three year old car last week. First, the fact that dealers post $30K on something, doesn't mean you can sell same thing for that. Buyers don't care about auction prices, but dealers do when they take a trade. If you want to sell it individually, be prepared for weeks of no phone calls interrupted by text messages from people wanting to give you less that dealer would. I just went through that personally just in last month. Finally I sold it, but the reality was quite painful. You may have more patience and you obviously have more luck than me, so who knows.
Well, it is funny you said about the "experiment" car. That's very close to what I got (no M package, but regular sports package, convenience pkg and Nav). The car was about $46.5K MSRP. Nowhere near your discount, but it was ordered, so no reason to go below costs either.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Flightnurse - auction values are relevant because that's what you are offered (at least here in the north east) for your trade.
I'm trying to talk myself into buying used next time around, so I'm trying to look at the glass as half full. Most BMWs here in the north east are leased for 3 years. When the lease is up, the car has anywhere from 30K to 45K miles on it. The car is still under warranty, has had all maintenance done by the dealer (ok, so not by Mike Miller's old school maintenance schedule) and is still in relatively good condition. It might have a new set of tires, fresh oil, and at least front brake pads & rotors. BMWs are wonderfully built machines who's life is FAR from over when the 50K mile warranty expires.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Weird thing is, Edmunds TMV is far, far less than Kelley/NADA, not only on dealer retail, but also on trade. This is first time I saw such discrepancy - usually it is that Edmunds tells you trade is more than Kelley/NADA, but retail is less. Here, they all three values down by several thousands. I think it has something to do with low supply due the tsunami. Seeing my transaction, I'm inclined to thing Edmunds is wrong this time - it looks to me as a computer calculating price based on predicted value rather than actual asking/transaction prices, which seem to be in Kelley/NADA case.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
No, I'm not. Actually, I'm assuming it has the right options. In the used car world, most options are assumed to be there and you start deducting when they aren't. So when I said $20k, that assumed premium package and auto trans, at the least. I didn't realize you had a stick. So the $22k is probably generous.
You apparently don't understand depreciation as you said you did because you failed to realize my main point, which is that most options add zero-to-very-little value to a used car.
BTW, the average buyer can not get cars at auction prices so that is a mood [sic] point.
Thanks for that. Did you wonder why I posted selling prices as well as auction prices? :confuse:
So currently at one of the local BMW dealers in Phoenix, has 2 BMW 328s with the M sport package with 40 and 49K miles are asking 28 and 30K for them.
Good for them. But, as your own buying story indicates, asking price and selling price are vastly different things. I'd also bet those are CPO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I disagree a bit with you on options. There is some "basic level" assumed, which usually may be above stripper, but there are options adding value, at least in first couple of years. Manual transmission does not have to be a value subtracting proposition for BMW - the car is rare enought to attract a few sporty stick shift afficionados, especially with M-package. That's a good combo. May not attract a buyer first day, but chances are those who show up may be more motivated - of course there will also be jokers as well.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
well, yes, of course. Those that I detailed in one of my posts above. With BMWs, for example, premium is assumed. Sport adds value, as does Nav. They do, however, as I said, suffer worse depreciation than the rest of the car.
A stick does hurt it at trade time, but you are correct that it doesn't have to hurt it at selling time. Dealers do the same thing. That's a sort of joke I've told before, and complained to salespeople about, too... they'll tell me "nobody wants it" when trading it to them, but then its "rare/hard to come by!" when buying it from them. So poor stick drivers get the shaft coming and going.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Very well said Q! Right on the money!
dino - I know the ride, build quality (solidness), RWD handling balance are very different between your 328iT & your WRX STi, but how are you holding up with the severe power differences between the 2 cars.
Q - I totally agree with you regarding the auction values of cars, that's what you get from the dealer whether it is a 10/10 or a 7/10. They deduct more if the car is in rough shape and don't add so much if the car is truly exceptional.
Sometimes, if you have the perfect car for the perfect buyer, things can work out in both of your favors. Back in 1998, when we graduated college a friend of mine had to have a Mustang Convertible with a stick. He special ordered a V6 (VEE SIX) Mustang Convertible with a stick. We tell him he's NUTS because everyone who wants a Mustang with a Stick Shift is going to want a GT (V8) & he's going to have a lot of trouble selling the car when the time comes.
To say my friend is anal about how he keeps his cars is and understatement. He also made it look like a GT (Dual Exhaust, Rear Bumper to Integrate dual exhaust, fake hood scoop...).
Fast forward to 2003. He Special orders a MINI Cooper S. His MINI comes in and he starts looking into selling his Faux GT V6 5 SPeed Mustang Convertible. I do some research for him & tell him that given the way domestics depreciate & given his car is a complete odd ball to expect to get maybe $11K TOPS for the car.
He lists it himself anyway after getting trade in offer of like $10-$10,5 (Plus paying full sticker for the MINI). He gets a call from some 16 year old kid who wants a Mustang with a stick, but insurance (& his parents) prohibits him from buying a V8. He likes the stick, the convertible, (Mom Likes the V6), & most importantly the faux GT styling. I think my friend got $16K for his car.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2018 430i Gran Coupe
For now, new body/engine will only be on 328i and 335i sedans, which is announced, but I don't think it has come to lots yet.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That said, BMW dealers don't sell at a loss. They'll hold on to a 328i like you describe, use it as a loaner, or a demo. But, dealers sell just about all the ones they can get their hands on. IF you bought it at $7K-$8K off MSRP, the option list may not be what is reported, or it has a bunch of miles on it as a demo/loaner.
BTW.....took my 3er in to have the oil changed (6K miles, paid for it out of my own pocket....next one is on BMW), and they let me drive a '12 328i sedan. Interesting with a 4 cy...drive train's a lilttle rough.... uncharacteristic of a BMW. Significantly down on power compared to mine, too.
From the outside, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between an '11 and a '12. Interesting interior (don't know the name of it). Looks like the interior of a 5 series. IF you like the 5, you'll like the new 3.
But, as mentioned, the coupe/'vert for '12 is the same as my '11 coupe. So, not significant changes there for awhile.
Ride, handling, etc? About the same as an '11.
As I told my sales person (who is always nice to me when I stop by), "I'd take a steeply discounted '11 over this "updated" '12".
He agreed with me.
Should be interesting to see the sales numbers this year. They say MPG will go way up on the '12. But, I'm getting 23-24 MPG in mixed driving on mine, already. And, I've got a heavy right foot.
Sween I doubt BWM dealers in your neck of the woods wont a regular 328i they want it with iDrive, wont happen until fall. The there are a couple of big markets for 3 series, So Florida, So Cal and Nor Cal, so I'm guess those markets and markets close to them will have first choice of cars.
The STi has always been a screaming performer, but at the end of the day it is still an almost $40K car.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Anyway, I love it. It is all I wanted - no more, no less. I only have two complaints - dashboard looks like it is 15 years old, designwise, and the cupholders/armrest storage really suck. I think of BMW design process like this: they develop/refine engines and transmissions for 4 years, they obsess about new/improved suspension and steering for 2 years, exterior styling takes them about 10 months, then two weeks before the premier Hans just realized they forgot about the instrument cluster (again ) - so they pull one from the previous generation (which was used in one before that), slightly change fonts and send it to the marketing department... :surprise:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Yeah, but then you don't get a few things. My wagon was $46.5K MSRP. It took sports, premium, convenience and Nav. I guess you don't really need Nav and half of the convenience (HID is a must, but keyless start or rear sunshades are not). I would not get one without premium and sports, if not just for seats. If those seats were sold separately, I'd get them and could live with all-season rubber, on standard rims., normal suspension and speed limit at 130 (although I got it to 138 mph on German autobahn, but well )
What's funny is realization than when compared with sedan, the wagon is actually cheaper, even though it starts higher. Sedan doesn't have standard fold down seats ($500, which is absolutely ridiculous - what's worse I noticed dealers actually don't order them - can only imagine surprise on somebody's face first time they try to fold seats :sick: ), is also has no sunroof (which I understand tall people may actually prefer not to have). What's more, the wagon's sunroof is "panoramic" (about half longer, because it can fold under longer roof) - absolutely awesome, puts every time I reach for the button.
Wonder if the new 328i has still fold-down seats optional.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I still think it will be interesting to see what the market will do as the "new" 3 series (and 5 series) have a base 4 cyl (albeit, turbo). I know Audi has been pushing their A4 with 4 cyl motors, and that MB is doing it with their new C series.
But, $40K+ large for a 4 cyl car is a bit of a stretch IMHO. You lose the smoothness of their 6, which is world class. I know they said the '12 328i is as fast as the previous gen 6 cyl, but it may have been lost on me. I've driven the previous 6 cyl 328. The '12 certainly doesn't feel nearly as quick.
Should be interesting!
BTW, EVERYBODY who actually sees it is person says it looks better than sedan, more sporty, better lines. Perhaps there is some flattery there, but I think the same. You get sedan's handling (car is identical up to center pillar), extra boot, and better styling? Yet, you know, it is America. They don't buy anything with word "wagon" in it...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Agree with you wholeheartedly that an NA 4-cyl wouild be even more efficient WHILE expanding their customer base. Even better than that, however, I would like to see them bring a smaller, lighter, 4-cyl base option here. Would increase efficiency considerably more. How about the 3-door and 5-door 120i? Wouldn't that be a helluva lot easier than constantly developing new engines? The 3-series is SUCH a porker now, which is the only reason I picked the 1 instead.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BMWNA has made it abundantly clear that they aren't interested in expanding their customer base that way -- mere plebians could then afford to drive a new BMW, and that'd never do. They prefer to sell (or, more often, lease) to those who aspire to the biggest baddest most expensive possible lifestyle, and it appears to work very well for them.
However, the majority of the customer base that reads and responds to Roundel articles predominantly drive the older cars because they think like you (and I) do. BMWNA could give a rip less about the enthusiast market; they're here to get cars on the road, and the people who care about such things are a mere sliver of the market -- the sliver that got the brand going, but that was then and this is now.
Oh boy. :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Most 335s out there have an MSRP in the $50K range.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I'm a BMWCCA member & enjoy reading ROUNDEL every month. We enthusiasts make up such a small percentage of the market, that we barely even register on BMWs radar screen.
BMW is in the business of selling cars and making a profit doing so. Some of the ROUNDEL letters I read every month drive me crazy. "I can't believe BMW won't import the F10 5 series wagon...". Well, BMW sold LESS than 900 (nine hundred) of these during the last year of E60 production.
Dino100 - I think your RWD, stick, sport pkg wagon is way cool.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
It may be nothing, spark plugs are cheap, but I see it as a possible sign of things to come. Nothing is free. If you get 250 horses out of 2 litters, claim 20% lower fuel cost, somethings's got to give. We shall see in five years.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
As (cheap) enthusiasts, we can only hope that in an attempt to sell a whole lotta cars that BMW leases out as many cars as possible so 3 years from now the used car market is flooded with well maintained, great driving BMWs.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Interesting comments about the coarseness of the 4cyl turbo engine. Even though my Acura's I4 isn't the balanced wondeer that the BMW I6 is, it is a pretty damn smooth engine.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Here is a spy shot of the F10 sportback and wagon during field testing in rural Georgia...
My % number was a blind number- and my comments started off by saying sorry to the rest of e country. Attack mode - Dino you lose a bone?
I stand by what I said, BMW did a bad job with this release.
The F in F-10 meant front wheel drive...
(that's a Datsun, for the kids out there..)
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