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Comments
I really like the 335i but one thing I don't like is the throttle/turbo response. Maybe I'm just OCD about throttle response, but I really prefer a direct link between my right foot and the throttle bodies. While the 335i is better than most turbos I've driven, it's still got that rubber band feeling.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I think sales numbers and the car mags have made it clear the G is the true wInner.
BTW BMW of Bayside is having an excellent sale on their loaner 2011 BMW, my cousin just picked up a 2011 335iXdrive with M package, Premium Package, and Nav for $37K. It has hail damage and is not CPO car, but with only 11K miles on it it has the remaining factory warranty. It drives great, BTW, long island needs to fix their street though, the pot holes here are horrible and I thought Calif was bad...
- BMW 3 Series (Now also includes the 1 series)
- Mercedes C Class (C class still fits here)
- Volvo 200 series (S60 would be the modern version I guess)
Now, times and technology have changed, but the thing that these had in common were that they were smaller versions of the larger luxury sedans and still had a bit of sportiness in them. Over time, other manufacturers added competing products, but now it seems as if everything with some leather added is now part of this group.
The TL is basically a Honda Lucerne. It's a big and heavy boat with luxury touches added. See the Toyota Avalon for a similar vehicle. It simply doesn't belong in this class of vehicles. Go drive a Mercedes or BMW and see what I mean - there's a massive difference.
I've never been asked my age on here - I'm 35 Dk what that has to do with anything?
Will check out bayside BMW - M package xdrive 6speed 2010-11 on my wish list.
Long island a bit far from here but I would go to save a grand or 2
Compared to the G the BMW costs more, isn't nearly as fast(unless you get the 335 for another $10k), in the X models gets about the same mpg as a car with 100 more HP, has a shorter warranty, leather is in upgrade, dash looks like something from the 90s, comes with 16" wheels standard, trunk space of an econocar and the list goes on. Oh yeah, better not keep one more than a standard lease period if you buy cause the repairs will come and they will be expensive.
I actually agree to some of your points regarding levels of equipment or some design cues (I also think the dash is ridiculously low grade and leather or fold-down seats should be standard), but ... trunk size? Really? What else? Back seat too small for you? Suspension too stiff? What an outrage, I need a premium fuel? Warranty? Wow, Infiniti gives you 10k miles more on b-t-b and one year more on powertrain... big deal. BMW gives you maintenance. Let's call it a wash.
I really don't undestand the need of validating your own preferences and choices by berating others. :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"BMW claims to have calculated the average maintenance cost of owning other cars for the same amount of time, ranging from $385 for a Saab to $1,112 for a Jaguar. " heres is a link we all should look at if this is the dealmaker/breaker
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1088569
love the use of the words outrage, and berating others.. powerful
Oh, btw, the G powertrain warranty is two years longer and more miles as well. Just trying to get the facts straight.
I rechecked the warranty - yes, I got my math wrong. It is 6y/70K and 4y/60K b-t-b powertrain Infiniti vs 4y/50K b-t-b BMW. It is significant, so is the maintenance. To me it's about equal value, but one may prefer one vs. the other.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
the following was taken from BMW of Bayside website. (thanks flightnurse)
IntelliChoice Data
BMW has compiled data pertaining to the average cost* of maintaining other vehicles during the first four years of ownership. See how BMW's no-cost Ultimate Service plan compares:
Brand Maintenance Costs
Acura $970.75
Audi $967.17
BMW $0
Cadillac $744.26
Infiniti $649.40
Jaguar $1112.53
Land Rover $233.52
Lexus $974.22
Lincoln $922.14
Mercedes-Benz $1086.60
Porsche $1032.14
Saab $385.29
Volvo $918.93
i agree about equal value-- but numbers tell the story
I think Sweeny answered your question.
The G is sportier and most people think it's better looking. The TL is more refined and some people think it's better looking.
Infiniti is going to be faster, but some options can also add to the price. Acura can be had with manual and AWD combined, which is a big plus to me. To me a choice would be manual RWD Infiniti and AWD Acura, also with a stick. I hate that nose on Acura, but looks to me is something one can get used to. I'm more interested in interiors. Final decision would probably be based on availability, price of target configurations and actual test drive results.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
but lets not forget bmw also offers free wipers and oil changes on your new rig as well for the first 4 years.
The G37x is an absolute road rocket. It is very balanced & turns almost like there's an axis underneath the car. Dynamically, it's a RWD chassis so it's going to be the better performer.
The TL is going to be a better ride. Not Buick-like as some suggest, but very refined. From what I've read from magazines & other TH posters, the SH-AWD really transforms the handling characteristics of an otherwise FWD, nose heavy, luxury sedan. It's not as fast as the ag, but it's no slouch.
Good luck & keep us informed. Test drives, buying experience.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
With the Prelude, I just basically point the wheel where I want it to go & hit the gas. I usually don't have to brake.
With the TSX, I lift off the throttle, stab the brakes, turn the wheel, allow for weight transfer, then jump on the gas.
It's no secret that I think the brakes on my TSX are terrible. When the time comes that I need new pads, I'm going to put HAWKS on all 4 corners. I have them on my Prrlude and am happy with their performance. I'll Probably replace the front rotors with brembro oem cross drilled replacements.
Once the oem Michelin tires are shot they are going to get replaced with some high performance summer rubber.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I think the SH-AWD is great. Without switching anything off I was able to slightly over-steer coming out of a corner (if that's your thing). My current car has an esoteric sequence of commands to turn off the 'nannies'...only to be repeated next time it is started.
The TL had a great amount of passenger room, nice dash (I don't mind buttons), and was very compliant over bumps, seams, etc. As far as acceleration is concerned it is very similar to all the others; really not that different. Only the 335 felt more lively in day to day driving; felt like all the torque was available 'now'.
I like the 'old' beak style as well; didn't purchase one so I guess in a marketing sense it would count as a failure...
I ranked it higher than the G37 because it felt more refined and seemed more expensive. I had the first G...the G35 and had a great time with it.
I didn't go with a TL because I decided on a CPO IS350 which was more toss-able and had a lower price (than a new TL). It had similar refinement as the TL and is RWD; which isn't as great a benefit as some would argue...especially in the IS which tames much of the sportiness the RWD is supposed to bestow...
So, if it were up to me in a TL SH-AWD vs G37 I'd go with the TL.
I had my heart set on the A4 - I loved the gas mileage, the refined interior and I actually liked the pickup of the 4 cylinder turbo better than the TL. The only thing I hated was the a la carte option pricing (how the hell can you not offer a trip computer or dual zone climate control or bluetooth in a standard trim) and the arrogance of the sales people who wouldn't come down from MSRP.
Finally I decided to test drive the G37x and it was just the perfect balance with plenty of power - felt more powerful than the TL - and a refined interior with all the right options. I could care less about the Nav and the G37 lets you have that easy to use screen with all the functionality, less the $2k Nav. The TL without the Nav looked even more like a Honda and you'd have to rely solely on voice control, which was less than impressive during the test drive.
I ultimately decided to lease the G37x as there are some great deals right now with the pending redesign coming for 2013. I've had the car about 2 weeks and am really happy with everything except the MPG, which I knew I'd start to really dislike as soon as I started filling up the tank. I think the Acura TL would be best in the long term as the reliability and resale are unmatched, but my plan is to lease the G37x for 3 years and hope that Acura gets their act together so I can buy something long term when my lease is up.
Hope this helps.
Acura TL Advance SH AWD (auto, 6 speed)
Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + Sport package (auto, 8 speed)
Audi S4 Premium with a couple of options to increase content (auto 7 speed)
Audi A6 Premium + with additional options to content it like the TL (auto 8 speed)
BMW 335x with Premium, Sport, Nav, Bi-Xenons, +sound upgrade (auto 6 speed)
Cadillac CTS/4 3.6 Luxury Edition w/19" wheels and paddle shifter (auto 6 speed)
Infiniti G37X - with every option (auto 7 speed)
Infiniti M37X with Premium and Technology (auto 7 speed)
Mercedes C class with several of the packages to content it similarly as the A4 or TL (auto 7 speed)
Volvo S60 T6 AWD with several packages to get it about to the Audi Prestige or TL Advance level of content (auto 6 speed)
I had a lease price number in mind ($600 or less per mo), and I used a service (fee based) called Car Woo to see what the discount off MSRP could be; I also went, in person, to the dealers I test drove and asked for a lease quote at 36 or 39 months 15K miles per year.
I bought (leased) the car on September 10.
Prior to acquiring the TL, I had narrowed my choices to the cars that offered blind spot warning (BSW) either as part of a package or sold as a separate option.
The cars I liked a lot (regardless of BSW):
Acura TL (seemed close to an Audi S4 in terms of feel)
Audi -- all of them
Infiniti M (the G seemed cramped -- I felt like a bug behind the wheel, the thing is so narrow and the hood slopes out of sight, so you can't easily see the front end -- and couldn't be had with BSW)
Volvo S60 T6 AWD
Honorable mention: Cadillac CTS/4 -- no OMG handles?!? and no BSW, but very American classy and an OK performer -- but not a screamer like the Acura, the Audi S4 or the Volvo S60 T6.
Worth noting: the G37X with the sport package did seem a lot of fun -- tons of power, good HUGE paddle shifters and a willingness to go (oddly, rather small wheels and tires, though.)
So, if YOU like the power of the Infiniti G and do not feel crammed inside the smallest interior of the bunch (at least it felt that way compared to the Audi and the Acura which at ~72" wide felt roomy), you should go with the Infiniti -- you are right the Acura is one step away from being "ugly." I like the amount of tech in the Acura and the power is strong -- almost, but not quite S4 strong and the torque vectoring gets rid of the Acura TL understeer.
On the other hand the new G, next year (?) will probably alleviate some of the size and content issues I had with it.
Regarding the pricing -- the Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with backup sensors and splash guards was just south of $48K. I was offered 13% off MSRP. The best off MSRP I could get in person was 8%.
I made a financial, performance, luxury (content) decision. Volvo was the worst in terms of an MSRP discount. Infiniti was second best (all from Car Woo, btw.)
You can't go wrong with either of your two choices -- but the Acura is not really attractive (when you are on the outside, it is OK when you are on the inside) and the G will be refreshed in about a year (so they say).
Purely on performance -- the G. Purely (for me) on affordability and almost the same performance the TL.
I think of the S4 everytime I floor the TL or when I am carving into or out of a curve while applying the throttle.
Drive it like you live. :surprise:
I know this car was probably $50,000 new, but really, only $10,000 less than a new one? I bet if I asked about leasing a new $50,000 335i it would cost over $600/mo. That would mean a residual value of less than $30,000.
So they clean it up and add $2000 profit, and that means a car like this should cost $32,000.
And don't even get me started on Porsches. Dealers are asking mid-60's for 2008 C2's! Heh, I saw a 2008 Cayman S - beautiful with only $12,000 miles - and they wanted $50,000 for it. A new one is $60,000...
It was a frustrating weekend to say the least.
I really think I need to stick with E30s. They're cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, and they don't depreciate. I could buy a cherry 325i convertible for 7 or 8 thousand and be done with it.
Did you attempt to negotiate? When I was looking at a CPO 335 coupe they dropped 2k off the MSRP without any real haggling. I'm not certain if that was their absolute bottom (I assume it wasn't).
But of course this was a different dealer, time of year, salesman, state, etc, etc...
The BMW CPO (I believe) is transferable too, so that is an added benefit as well.
I only find "WOW" deals when I'm not looking to buy
I'm just surprised they price them so high. I know they will negotiate but I just wonder how many people they scare away.
Used cars are such a high profit item for dealers because they get the cars at wholesale and mark them up tremendously. Unlike with new cars, buyers are almost completely in the dark as to how much the dealer payed for the car - there's no foundation to stand on for buyers to negotiate.
Look forward to hearing the discussion!
Interestingly, given that scenario, my '11 335i was about $9K less (discounted) than it's '12 brother. For that large of a delta, the BMW would not have been on my shopping list last year.
Sween...you and I don't agree, often. But, I agree with you assessment regarding the value proposition of the recent 328i update. It's entering into territory that other cars really make more sense.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing that drives like a 3, especially with the turbo 3.0. As a side note, there is ZERO lag with mine. But, when the 328i 4 cyl starts creeping toward $50K (loaded) and the 335i creeps towards $60K (loaded), it's time to look at some other vehicles.
To me, this is where the G37 starts making more sense.....the price creep of the 3 series puts it there....Infiniti didn't have to do anything.
Those of you who've been around here for awhile know of my fondness for the TL. But, I think Acura is going to go in a different direction with the next iteration. I hope they bring out a TL-S before they move on (they usually do). But, I'm not certain they'll be as edgy with the new TL. To me, that would be a real shame.
Audis...at least around SW OH, have very little at the dealerships that you can find. I'm seeing more recently. But, stocking levels are still very thin. And, I don't think it's because they sell a ton of them, as they can't if they don't have new stock. Drove an S4. Nice car. Not worth a premium over my 335 nor over an even larger premium over a TL SH-AWD.
IMHO, Mercedes C or E class don't even come close to those mentioned above.
Gas prices are once again artificially inflated. So, perhaps BMW is putting themselves in a good position with the 4 cyl in the 3 and 5 series. American public is fickle. They'll spend an extra $10K premium to get better MPG that amounts to $3K over the course of a hybrid's life.
It's coming....gas prices are due for a monumental crash given that demand had been so tepid (regardless of what people are saying about China and India) and political posturing usually amounts to nothing but noise (how long do you really think Iran can keep from selling oil in Europe). MPG on all vehicles is advancing at a very rapid rate. So, all of this means that a collapse is coming. We'll see how many want a $50K 4 cyl luxury car then.
Sorry about that....looks like I started into a free-fall ramble with the above post. I don't get here that often these days.
The CPO 335i for 40K seems about right, a fully loaded 335i is almost 60K.
You should be able to find a CPO 2009 off lease with less then 40K, which would increase the warranty to 100K for mid to low 20's.
Regarding design, Infiniti has been on a evolution of their cars, so maybe a refresh would help sales.
Flight nurse - why did you need my age again ?
Based on the stickers I saw, I am very sure I cannot get a CPO 2009 335i for less than $30K.
Fortunately, I'm not interested in a 335i. After driving it, I didn't like the response of the throttle. It's not turbo lag, per se, but there is definitely a disconnected feeling that I don't like.
The only BMW I would consider right now is an E90 M3. I've given myself an upper limit of $60K (but I'd prefer to stay below $50K). I'm in no hurry so I can wait for the right car and deal.
I agree with the Nissan diesels in other countries, why they don't bring them over. I highly doubt they will, especially with the M hybrid, it seems that, at least Infiniti, is going to do a hybrid as their fuel efficient choice of technology.
I agree, Infiniti is much like BMW in doing an evolution of their vehicles rather than a revolution, so I expect only a moderate refresh will be done on the G lineup. If they go in the direction of the essence concept, then they should be in good shape design wise.
The 2007 G was a G35...it was G37 in 2009.
The IS is probably not Lexus' "bread/butter"...but whatever food group it belongs to, it's starting to smell a bit after so many years.
I have an IS and if I were shopping today it probably wouldn't be close to the top of my list.