Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy · March 2012

The sales comment and redesign is tht your opinion or fact? If fact from where? Like I said mb and Nissan getting together on a 6 that will be the standard engine for a boatload of cars - I have no read anything on the redesign, which is funny because it's match and Infiniti usually releases new models in oct-

graphicguy · March 2012

Didn't realize the G's current iteration was that "mature". But, you're right, it's time for a major upgrade. They've got about as much mileage out of that platform (both the Altima and the G) as they can wring out of it.

Same with the IS. I remember looking at an IS350 6 years ago. Wanted to pull the trigger, but the local Lexus dealer acted insulted that I tried to negotiate on it. Now, I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger on one.

I can see how the current lux/sport landscape is settling in. On the very top end, you have the BMW 3. On the mid-range, you have the A4/5 and Mercedes C. On the entry range, there's the TL and the G....these are the biggest "bang for the buck" in this range.

I'm going to watch the next iterations of the TL and the G closely. I've always liked both.

smarty666 · March 2012

Fact: The G is in its sixth model year 2007-2012
- your playing with semantics, all that changed between 2008 and 2009 was the 3.7 liter V6 and 7spd transmission.

Fact: The G was down 9% for Jan 2012 in sales and just now broke even with YTD in 2011.

Fact: The introduction of the G25 did not increase the G's overall sales number in the quantity Infiniti originally hoped for.

Fact: The Altima is being redesigned for 2013

With this FACTUAL information, there is a need to introduce a redesign G that is more refined, has much better mpg, etc than the current 2nd Gen G series. Like someone else mentioned, Infiniti has milked its current iteration. They need something fresh to keep nipping on the heels of the 3-Series!

Hey, I'm not Infiniti hater, I had an Infiniti at one point, but they need to get their act together to stay competitive. I think this co-op with Mercedes will bring the refinement to the Infiniti line-up that everyone has wanted and complained about for years. I hope they apply this as well and bring a redesigned FX and EX b/c those two crossovers are not helping their sales numbers either.

smarty666 · March 2012

I'm not sure how the G is on the lower end of that range considering it is constantly compared against the 3-Series. If anything the 3-Series and G are at the top of the range, with the A4/C-Class in the middle and ES/TL on the lower end of the range.

fedlawman · March 2012

Have you seen pictures (concepts) of the new G? It is fugly!

To my eyes, it looks like a Bizzarro World version of the Genesis Coupe.

When did the Japanese start copying the Koreans?

plekto · March 2012

The TL isn't in this class at all, though, as it's a large luxury sedan that's similar to a Cadillac or Lexus. It's also front wheel drive, which further complicates the problem.

To be entry level and performance, it has to have three things.
- Rear wheel drive. If it is AWD, it absolutely has to be rear-wheel biased. (performance part #1)
- Be midsize or compact (performance part #2)
- Not just a tin can with a bunch of leather added.

sweendogy · March 2012

Fact is you have yet to post any actual information from any source about the redo. You quote sales numbers. The sales figure you quoted, fact says they sold the same Amt of cars ytd as they did in 2011- so they are flat by your estimates. You stated the obvious that they are in the 7th year with the current car, and while I agree they need a refresh I have not seen any word on this coming, but you stated Fact that they are a go for 2013, maybe a spy shot or 2 of Infinitis main seller. I would like to see the press release or a car mag that inFact states this is true- not some comment about the Altima, a car that's for sure the same body style bit 90% of its sales are 4cyl, is fwd, and uses a cvt- 3 major differences when doing a redu. Its great to have an opionion but it's not Fact no matter how many times you write it.

smarty666 · March 2012

Everything I stated was fact. Perhaps if you spent less time arguing with people on here about how great Infiniti is, and actually do some research online, you wouldn't have to be so argumentative.

BTW - I never said Infiniti confirmed a redesign for 2013, as myself and others have pointed, we said they are in NEED of a redesign as the car is in its sixth model year. Big difference. Nor did I say the car is in its seventh model year. If you do some simple math 2012-2007, that is 6 yrs not 7 yrs.

Everything I stated is fact, as is the Altima sharing the same platform as the G Sedan so if the Altima is getting redesign, it makes logical sense that the G would be as well as that is a common occurrence when platforms are shared.

qbrozen · March 2012

so if the Altima is getting redesign, it makes logical sense that the G would be as well as that is a common occurrence when platforms are shared.

Not if moving forward with the same platform. The sheetmetal bolted to it isn't shared between the vehicles, so it doesn't matter if one gets redesigned UNLESS it is moving to a new platform.

HOWEVER, in this case, you are incorrect anyway, as the G is on the FM platform (RWD/AWD), while the Altima is on the D platform.

Speaking of which, the FM platform is already 11 years old. I wish Nissan would either replace it altogether or keep using it just for SUVs. The damned thing results in porky cars. They need something lighter yet more rigid for the Z/G, IMHO.

billyperksii · March 2012

What's the purpose of this post?
Is it based on ranting or just pure ignorance?

rayainsw · March 2012

Thanks for posting that.
I was going to look up the relationship
between those 2 - but had not, yet.
Did not seem logical, to me...
[ like the Infiniti Coupe and the Nissan 370Z - both RWD - does ]
- Ray
Currently a RWD coupe driver ......

sweendogy · March 2012

Backtract once again- smarty you are so back to your TL driving ways....
(remember when you argued for the tL, then 6mrhs later you traded it in for the 3)- Fact is you state the obvious and add no real value. Mb and Infiniti getting together, 2011 production issues, global economic issues= no redo for 2013.

flightnurse · March 2012

The 3rd Gen Altima used the FF-L Platform, the 4th Gen (current car) uses the the D platform, the Current Infiniti G uses the FM platform, so how are they same platfom?

smarty666 · March 2012

Backtract once again sweentoad, never traded the TL in for a 3-Series; fact is, your argumentative attitude here makes anything you have to say hold no real value to anyone

- stick with your Infiniti mpg while gas prices head to $5 bucks a gallon, :P

smarty666 · March 2012

You are correct flight, I mixed up my platforms. 3rd Gen Altima had FF-L, 4th Gen D, and the G-Sedan Has the FM platform shared with the FX and 370z

nyccarguy · March 2012

How much would you say to subtract from DEMO miles? $1 per mile? $.50 per mile? $.25 per mile?

sweendogy · March 2012

Wrong again, shocker - cant wait for the 13 g you talk of. Fact

qbrozen · March 2012

Depends on the car. If we're talking a bimmer, the deduct on Galves for miles beyond average is $150/100 miles. So that's how I would calculate it.

plekto · March 2012

What's the purpose of this post?

What is the title of this discussion? "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans". My issue is that many cars that are just thrown into the discussion based upon either price or the fact that they are the bottom-tier model of the make.

A "Performance Sedan" is another name for "Sports Sedan", right? Well, let's see that it says on wikipedia: (Note - when I typed in "Performance Sedan, it pulled up Sports Sedan instead)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_sedan

Quote:
The term "sport sedan" also came into being, when comparing luxury import sedans (i.e. BMW, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz), which were smaller cars popular with young buyers that focused on performance and handling, to domestic luxury marques such as Cadillac and Lincoln, for older customers and which emphasized size and comfort."

A big front wheel drive boat like the TL isn't part of this group, anymore than a Toyota Camry V6 is. And before you go off on me about the TL being on the list on that Wikipedia page, it's referring to the previous generation A-Spec model that was sold in Canada and Japan only. The current model is much larger and more like a fancy Camry than a sports sedan.

When I heard the original poster talking about choosing between the TL and a G37, I had to do a double-take. Did he actually drive both of them at anything faster than 30mph around the block?

nyccarguy · March 2012

The miles are low. Less than 3500. I think it still qualifies for their .9% financing if it hasn't been titled, right?

Still on the fence about this one. Thinking of trading in my 2010 TSX Tech with 48,500 miles for a demo '11 328xiA w/ premium, value, xenon, navigation, metallic paint, heated wheel I saw listed on a dealer's website. The 0.9% financing + $2500 rebate + 2 months payments looks awfully tempting.

Each car obviously has it's advantages. I can make up a million excuses to why I shouldn't/can't buy the 3er, but that doesn't mean I don't want one:)

sergeym · March 2012

I would not consider a BMW without a sport package. I'd rather get one with less equipment but with sport seats, suspension and steering wheel.

stickguy · March 2012

nice car. Do it. You won't regret it!

my take on the demo miles? not enough, and way less than if you were looking to trade in something with the same miles!

I bet they start low, maybe $.10, possibly .$20? $1.00 is probably too aggressive, but looking at ~.$50 seems right, since much less and you might as well buy new.

stickguy · March 2012

they all seem to have the nicer (3 spoke) steering wheel now. not like the E46 days where it was a big difference. The seats though, they are nice.

And I don't want any lower profile tires or stiffer suspension, especially if stuck with run flats. not with the hideous roads around here.

rayainsw · March 2012

Here is a listing from the closest BMW dealer to me.
FWIW.

http://www.gwinnettbmw.com/bmw-reduced-price-click-here-for-our-demos--dealer-85- 95-sid-16797.html

- Ray
I agree with SergeyM regarding the Sport Pkg...

rayainsw · March 2012

Interesting - a six-speed manual trans. 335i demo...?
http://www.gwinnettbmw.com/detail-2011-bmw-3_series-4dr_sdn_335i_rwd-used-821798- 5.html
- Ray
THAT seems rather odd.

nyccarguy · March 2012

I agree that sports seats are awesome. Pretty much every BMW here in the northeast is AWD, so the sport pkg doesn't have sport suspension.

It's going to be a daily driver & not a track car. Even BMWs regular suspension is enough for my mere average driving abilities.

qbrozen · March 2012

Whoops. Make that $150/1000

If I had to choose, I think I would have to take premium over sport. I need the lumbar support. Of course, BOTH is the best.

flightnurse · March 2012

I could not agree more, however not too sure where in NY NYCcarguy lives, my cousin lives on Long Island the roads are horrible at best, the sport package would be the death of people.... Now living in PHX, sport package (really the M package) is the only way to go.

nyccarguy · March 2012

Flightnurse - I actually don't live in NYC anymore (I did when I 1st signed onto edmunds back in the late 1990's). I live in Connecticut now. But yes, the roads here in the northeast are terrible at best.

I went to a BMW dealer on my way home from work today. 1st sat in a gorgeous Black Saphire/Red 135i M Sport/6 speed. After dreaming for a sec and then thinking what my wife would hurl at me for bringing that home, I sat in an E90 328xi. One thing I live about my Acura is the thickly bolstered seats. The seats in the non sport (E90) 3 are just very plain Jane. I most cars in the northeast are ordered w/o the sports pkg. I think I'll wait it out until I can afford what I want & not just take a car because it's a good deal.

sweendogy · March 2012

So you can't get the true sports suspension on a 3 series if it's equipped with xdrive and get the optional sports pack or M sport option?

nyccarguy · March 2012

Not with the E90. I'm sure this has changed with the F30 as I believe you can get a true sport pkg on the F10 5er.

The Infiniti G37 only offers a true sport package in its RWD models as well.

sweendogy · March 2012

Sorry I don't speak BMW- the pre 2012 models didn't offer a true sports pack on awd ? The 2012s do?

I know Infiniti awd is just big wheels, a nice grill, seats and paddle shifters- I think the biggest misstep is no manual shifter.

billyperksii · March 2012

I am not going to get into the defending car mode. All I can say is I own a the AWD drive TL and for what its worth, it does a pretty good job in the handling department-have you driven the car?
Further more the A-SPEC TL was the heavy FWD car that was pure cosmetic set-up-nothing to do with performance. I owned the 2003 TL Type S and deliberately stayed away from the 2004-2008 models, basically because of the FWD.
In my opinion a C300,A4, 328 are just basically overpriced luxury.

ivan_99 · March 2012

I agree with you regarding the TL AWD, it handles very well. Unless somebody is a hardcore RWD fanatic I think it belongs in the battle-royal.

I think some companies, like Infiniti, walk a tight light between luxury and value.

My general feeling is that in a competitive market you can't get something for nothing. Infiniti may have a lower selling price (for a similarly equipped automobile) but IMO it has to come from somewhere...So you may lose in materials, engine refinement, etc.

Infiniti is still competitive and the 'mix' of luxury/value still seems to persuade some people to put their hard earned $'s down.

And it makes sense, why pay for something you don't want.

I see this on my IS350 as well...switches that are shared with 'regular' Toyota's, internal components, etc. I had a G35 and Q45 (at one point) and it was littered with Nissan labels. I'm not certain I would have paid more if these components were all unique to Infiniti. I know my IS is a Toyota...

There does seem to be a large overlap between luxury and non-luxury vehicles.

The resent surge of Hyundai and KIA initially would give the impression that you're getting something for nothing, but their prices have crept up as well. I think (this surge) it's good for the market to bring the other prices down...In the past few years I haven't seen the "value" in Honda's and Toyota's

A few years ago (for some reason) I went through the effort of comparing all the small details between the 3 series (think it was 328) and a fully loaded Camry (they were within a couple $ k's of each other). The Camry was lacking in many areas...don't recall the specifics...something like the ABS used, the chassis construction, suspension design, etc. The difference was substantial enough for me to conclude that the BMW was a "deal"

I guess what I'm trying to convey in my ramblings is I don't really see true "luxury" divisions any more, not for the general car market anyway. A Toyota could be equipped and constructed up to "Cadillac" levels. I think this thread is limited in scope to "try" to compare vehicles of a much broader group...but for me personally I'd add a VW CC V6 AWD (and others) to this group while loosing some existing participants.

graphicguy · March 2012

nyc...as always, it depends on the deal you can get on the 328. You should be able to do very well, given the new '12s are out. In addition, I'd much prefer the 6 cyl in the '11 over the 4 cyl in the '12.

wireless · March 2012

Oh goodness, Acura are overpriced Honda's that look equally as bad. Those little light-touch doors and controls aimed at women, the busy interior, the buzzy engine, incoherent interior and exterior design, over-boosted power steering, how they sell a one I haven't a clue, well at least they're reliable... I think.

ivan_99 · March 2012

heh...Love it

No "shot-across-the-bow" here.

"and controls aimed at women"...them's fighting words!

I routinely get ridiculed at work for my IS 350's light blue "ol' Lady" color; heh, I like the color, shows the lines well

Difficult to retort against my 'girly' color when the barrage comes from jacked-up of F250 diesel guy's

billyperksii · March 2012

Why the insults at the car manufacturer? -pointless post.
How is your Nissan Juke holding up?

plekto · March 2012

The main issue that I have with the current generation TL, is while the AWD model does fit the handling and usability model, it utterly fails because it's clearly an entire size/class too large.

3948 Lbs for the AWD model without a driver or typical accessories and things (floor mats, tank of fuel, maps and stuff in the glove box, etc...) is just simply too heavy. A typical person will be rolling down the road in one at a whopping 4200lbs.

The previous generation S could manage to barely eek into this category with a ~3400lb weight. (though FWD did kind of keep it from being a true contender)

And, yes, I did drive one last year. Absolutely underwhelming in turns and the steering was so over-boosted that it felt, quite honestly, a lot like a Buick. And not in a good way, either. The TL is a very very nice car, but it's not a "sport sedan" any more than the Lexus ES is.

fedlawman · March 2012

I don't think an ES can pull .93g on a skidpad...

And FTR, I think all of these cars are oversized, overweight, borderline Buicks from a certain point of view.

sweendogy · March 2012

While I agree with Pleko that the (awd) TL is not a great sports sedan and more of a sports cruiser - as 95% of them leave the lot as automatic, and it's weight which I agree with you that the group is getting more bloated. it's no ES which is Buick Camry, the standard TL is also a Buick Es. Speaking of buicks I just watched a women win 70k worth of cash and prizes on wheel of fortune- amazing never saw anyone win that much.

billyperksii · March 2012

"And, yes, I did drive one last year. Absolutely underwhelming in turns and the steering was so over-boosted that it felt, quite honestly, a lot like a Buick. And not in a good way, either. The TL is a very very nice car, but it's not a "sport sedan" any more than the Lexus ES is."

If you drove the AWD version and made that statement this tells me you are absolutely clueless when it comes to analyzing a cars driving dynamics.

graphicguy · March 2012

Still stand by my belief that the TL SH-AWD is the best "bang for the buck" lux/sports sedan on the market. You'll pay more for something else (i.e. a 3 series). But, the performance gains go up in much, much smaller increments for a lot more money to get there over a TL.

(This coming from a former TL SH-AWD owner and a current 335i xDrive coupe owner).

flightnurse · March 2012

Each person has their likes and dislike in driving dynamics. I do not like AWD, give me a good RWD with a balance chassis, with a engine that loves to rev and I'[m happy. This is why I have BMW's. Of course people [non-permissible content removed] about price, but when it comes down to what I LIKE, I don't care what others have to say. So Bill not too sure your comment has merit "If you drove the AWD version and made that statement this tells me you are absolutely clueless when it comes to analyzing a cars driving dynamics."

plekto · March 2012

Acura TL AWD:
3948 lbs
38.4 ft turning radius
109.3 wheelbase
194" length
74" wide

Buick Lacrosse:
3835 lbs
38.8 ft turning radius
111.7 wheelbase
196.9" length
73.1" wide

Dangerously close to each other. Cars these days are absolutely massive compared to even a decade ago.

fedlawman · March 2012

Infiniti G37x:
3822 lbs
36.1' turning radius
112.2" wheelbase
187.9" length
69.8" wide

Cadillac CTS Performance AWD:
4118 lbs
36.6' turning radius
113.4" wheelbase
191.3" length
72.5" wide

stickguy · March 2012

cars really have gotten overweight recently. Amazing how heavy even some relatively small sedans are. heck, I think a Golf weighs over 3K now.

nyccarguy · March 2012

4000 is the new 3000

nyccarguy · March 2012

My 2001 Prelude Type SH which was basically the same from 1997 - 2001. It weighs 3042 lbs. Weight was always one of the Prelude's "faults" during the era of 2600 lb Integra GSRs & 2700 lb AWD Turbo Eclipse GSXs.

stickguy · March 2012

heck, my 1991 mazda 626 5 door (a perfectly fine family sedan and plenty roomy and nice to drive on the highway) only weighed about 2,650#s. making it reasonably peppy with a whopping 110HP.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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