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Same with the IS. I remember looking at an IS350 6 years ago. Wanted to pull the trigger, but the local Lexus dealer acted insulted that I tried to negotiate on it. Now, I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger on one.
I can see how the current lux/sport landscape is settling in. On the very top end, you have the BMW 3. On the mid-range, you have the A4/5 and Mercedes C. On the entry range, there's the TL and the G....these are the biggest "bang for the buck" in this range.
I'm going to watch the next iterations of the TL and the G closely. I've always liked both.
- your playing with semantics, all that changed between 2008 and 2009 was the 3.7 liter V6 and 7spd transmission.
Fact: The G was down 9% for Jan 2012 in sales and just now broke even with YTD in 2011.
Fact: The introduction of the G25 did not increase the G's overall sales number in the quantity Infiniti originally hoped for.
Fact: The Altima is being redesigned for 2013
With this FACTUAL information, there is a need to introduce a redesign G that is more refined, has much better mpg, etc than the current 2nd Gen G series. Like someone else mentioned, Infiniti has milked its current iteration. They need something fresh to keep nipping on the heels of the 3-Series!
Hey, I'm not Infiniti hater, I had an Infiniti at one point, but they need to get their act together to stay competitive. I think this co-op with Mercedes will bring the refinement to the Infiniti line-up that everyone has wanted and complained about for years. I hope they apply this as well and bring a redesigned FX and EX b/c those two crossovers are not helping their sales numbers either.
To my eyes, it looks like a Bizzarro World version of the Genesis Coupe.
When did the Japanese start copying the Koreans?
To be entry level and performance, it has to have three things.
- Rear wheel drive. If it is AWD, it absolutely has to be rear-wheel biased. (performance part #1)
- Be midsize or compact (performance part #2)
- Not just a tin can with a bunch of leather added.
BTW - I never said Infiniti confirmed a redesign for 2013, as myself and others have pointed, we said they are in NEED of a redesign as the car is in its sixth model year. Big difference. Nor did I say the car is in its seventh model year. If you do some simple math 2012-2007, that is 6 yrs not 7 yrs.
Everything I stated is fact, as is the Altima sharing the same platform as the G Sedan so if the Altima is getting redesign, it makes logical sense that the G would be as well as that is a common occurrence when platforms are shared.
Not if moving forward with the same platform. The sheetmetal bolted to it isn't shared between the vehicles, so it doesn't matter if one gets redesigned UNLESS it is moving to a new platform.
HOWEVER, in this case, you are incorrect anyway, as the G is on the FM platform (RWD/AWD), while the Altima is on the D platform.
Speaking of which, the FM platform is already 11 years old. I wish Nissan would either replace it altogether or keep using it just for SUVs. The damned thing results in porky cars. They need something lighter yet more rigid for the Z/G, IMHO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Is it based on ranting or just pure ignorance?
I was going to look up the relationship
between those 2 - but had not, yet.
Did not seem logical, to me...
[ like the Infiniti Coupe and the Nissan 370Z - both RWD - does ]
- Ray
Currently a RWD coupe driver ......
(remember when you argued for the tL, then 6mrhs later you traded it in for the 3)- Fact is you state the obvious and add no real value. Mb and Infiniti getting together, 2011 production issues, global economic issues= no redo for 2013.
- stick with your Infiniti mpg while gas prices head to $5 bucks a gallon, :P
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
What is the title of this discussion? "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans". My issue is that many cars that are just thrown into the discussion based upon either price or the fact that they are the bottom-tier model of the make.
A "Performance Sedan" is another name for "Sports Sedan", right? Well, let's see that it says on wikipedia: (Note - when I typed in "Performance Sedan, it pulled up Sports Sedan instead)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_sedan
Quote:
The term "sport sedan" also came into being, when comparing luxury import sedans (i.e. BMW, Audi, and Mercedes-Benz), which were smaller cars popular with young buyers that focused on performance and handling, to domestic luxury marques such as Cadillac and Lincoln, for older customers and which emphasized size and comfort."
A big front wheel drive boat like the TL isn't part of this group, anymore than a Toyota Camry V6 is. And before you go off on me about the TL being on the list on that Wikipedia page, it's referring to the previous generation A-Spec model that was sold in Canada and Japan only. The current model is much larger and more like a fancy Camry than a sports sedan.
When I heard the original poster talking about choosing between the TL and a G37, I had to do a double-take. Did he actually drive both of them at anything faster than 30mph around the block?
Still on the fence about this one. Thinking of trading in my 2010 TSX Tech with 48,500 miles for a demo '11 328xiA w/ premium, value, xenon, navigation, metallic paint, heated wheel I saw listed on a dealer's website. The 0.9% financing + $2500 rebate + 2 months payments looks awfully tempting.
Each car obviously has it's advantages. I can make up a million excuses to why I shouldn't/can't buy the 3er, but that doesn't mean I don't want one:)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
my take on the demo miles? not enough, and way less than if you were looking to trade in something with the same miles!
I bet they start low, maybe $.10, possibly .$20? $1.00 is probably too aggressive, but looking at ~.$50 seems right, since much less and you might as well buy new.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And I don't want any lower profile tires or stiffer suspension, especially if stuck with run flats. not with the hideous roads around here.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
FWIW.
http://www.gwinnettbmw.com/bmw-reduced-price-click-here-for-our-demos--dealer-85- 95-sid-16797.html
- Ray
I agree with SergeyM regarding the Sport Pkg...
http://www.gwinnettbmw.com/detail-2011-bmw-3_series-4dr_sdn_335i_rwd-used-821798- 5.html
- Ray
THAT seems rather odd.
It's going to be a daily driver & not a track car. Even BMWs regular suspension is enough for my mere average driving abilities.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
If I had to choose, I think I would have to take premium over sport. I need the lumbar support. Of course, BOTH is the best.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I went to a BMW dealer on my way home from work today. 1st sat in a gorgeous Black Saphire/Red 135i M Sport/6 speed. After dreaming for a sec and then thinking what my wife would hurl at me for bringing that home, I sat in an E90 328xi. One thing I live about my Acura is the thickly bolstered seats. The seats in the non sport (E90) 3 are just very plain Jane. I most cars in the northeast are ordered w/o the sports pkg. I think I'll wait it out until I can afford what I want & not just take a car because it's a good deal.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The Infiniti G37 only offers a true sport package in its RWD models as well.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I know Infiniti awd is just big wheels, a nice grill, seats and paddle shifters- I think the biggest misstep is no manual shifter.
Further more the A-SPEC TL was the heavy FWD car that was pure cosmetic set-up-nothing to do with performance. I owned the 2003 TL Type S and deliberately stayed away from the 2004-2008 models, basically because of the FWD.
In my opinion a C300,A4, 328 are just basically overpriced luxury.
I think some companies, like Infiniti, walk a tight light between luxury and value.
My general feeling is that in a competitive market you can't get something for nothing. Infiniti may have a lower selling price (for a similarly equipped automobile) but IMO it has to come from somewhere...So you may lose in materials, engine refinement, etc.
Infiniti is still competitive and the 'mix' of luxury/value still seems to persuade some people to put their hard earned $'s down.
And it makes sense, why pay for something you don't want.
I see this on my IS350 as well...switches that are shared with 'regular' Toyota's, internal components, etc. I had a G35 and Q45 (at one point) and it was littered with Nissan labels. I'm not certain I would have paid more if these components were all unique to Infiniti. I know my IS is a Toyota...
There does seem to be a large overlap between luxury and non-luxury vehicles.
The resent surge of Hyundai and KIA initially would give the impression that you're getting something for nothing, but their prices have crept up as well. I think (this surge) it's good for the market to bring the other prices down...In the past few years I haven't seen the "value" in Honda's and Toyota's
A few years ago (for some reason) I went through the effort of comparing all the small details between the 3 series (think it was 328) and a fully loaded Camry (they were within a couple $ k's of each other). The Camry was lacking in many areas...don't recall the specifics...something like the ABS used, the chassis construction, suspension design, etc. The difference was substantial enough for me to conclude that the BMW was a "deal"
I guess what I'm trying to convey in my ramblings is I don't really see true "luxury" divisions any more, not for the general car market anyway. A Toyota could be equipped and constructed up to "Cadillac" levels. I think this thread is limited in scope to "try" to compare vehicles of a much broader group...but for me personally I'd add a VW CC V6 AWD (and others) to this group while loosing some existing participants.
No "shot-across-the-bow" here.
"and controls aimed at women"...them's fighting words!
I routinely get ridiculed at work for my IS 350's light blue "ol' Lady" color; heh, I like the color, shows the lines well
Difficult to retort against my 'girly' color when the barrage comes from jacked-up of F250 diesel guy's
How is your Nissan Juke holding up?
3948 Lbs for the AWD model without a driver or typical accessories and things (floor mats, tank of fuel, maps and stuff in the glove box, etc...) is just simply too heavy. A typical person will be rolling down the road in one at a whopping 4200lbs.
The previous generation S could manage to barely eek into this category with a ~3400lb weight. (though FWD did kind of keep it from being a true contender)
And, yes, I did drive one last year. Absolutely underwhelming in turns and the steering was so over-boosted that it felt, quite honestly, a lot like a Buick. And not in a good way, either. The TL is a very very nice car, but it's not a "sport sedan" any more than the Lexus ES is.
And FTR, I think all of these cars are oversized, overweight, borderline Buicks from a certain point of view.
If you drove the AWD version and made that statement this tells me you are absolutely clueless when it comes to analyzing a cars driving dynamics.
(This coming from a former TL SH-AWD owner and a current 335i xDrive coupe owner).
3948 lbs
38.4 ft turning radius
109.3 wheelbase
194" length
74" wide
Buick Lacrosse:
3835 lbs
38.8 ft turning radius
111.7 wheelbase
196.9" length
73.1" wide
Dangerously close to each other. Cars these days are absolutely massive compared to even a decade ago.
3822 lbs
36.1' turning radius
112.2" wheelbase
187.9" length
69.8" wide
Cadillac CTS Performance AWD:
4118 lbs
36.6' turning radius
113.4" wheelbase
191.3" length
72.5" wide
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.