Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

tlong · March 2012

Tsx now Porsche in this chat - wow - when does the civic and hummer join?

Well, the Hummer is practically a tall sedan, and the Porsche now seats four, so a sedan can't be far behind...

fedlawman · March 2012

"no question about that."

Well, that settles it then. Lock the thread, there's nothing else to discuss here.

sweendogy · March 2012

hold on..maybe we should use that same arb guy you are planning to use against your brother to settle the crash value of the M3-- sure that cat would make the right decision--

i hope you get the 24bux for the replacement wiper blades-- and 63 bux for the new floor mats you just installed on the m3.

what other car is on your list-- 998 or maybe the new abarth-- lets discuss

fedlawman · March 2012

Maybe I'll just hit rock bottom and settle for a G37. I'll have to move though because I couldn't let anyone I know see me driving it..

sweendogy · March 2012

Rock bottom - you mean when you have to squeeze extra money and threaten arbitration on a relative. I think the g is an uptick from that- you lose. Let's get off the Porsche talk as its not on topic.

nyccarguy · March 2012

Swapping out my current ELLPS (2010 Acura TSX) for another ELLPS (2011 BMW 328xi). I'm trying to get the most I can for my trade.

Dealer #1 (Pace BMW - Mamaroneck, NY) offered me $16,700 for my TSX.

I called another dealer (Wide World BMW - Spring Valley, NY) where my family has bought & serviced 5 BMWs (Dad '04 & '07 X5, Mom '05 530i & '08 328 xi, Wife '07 X3). Spoke to a gentleman who it turns out has been there since 2005. He's got what I'm looking for at the port. Asks me what I was offered for my TSX from Pace. I tell him they offered me something a little lower than I thought it was worth, $19,200. He told me his UCM pegged it between $18,500 & $19,100.

I'm going up there Tuesday to have them look at my trade & hopefully put a deposit down on my new 328xi.

fedlawman · March 2012

Really Sweeny?

Is that an attempt at humor that got lost in translation (I hope it was) or are you really that ignorant and callous?

For the record, my brother took full responsibility for the accident like an adult. He knows my M is irreplaceable and offered to do whatever it took to make things right.

I let him choose the course of action every step of the way. I spent valuable time and money copying every document related to the restoration and maintenance of my car and FedEx'ing it to USAA to try and increase the settlement. I told my brother we could hire and appraiser and take USAA to arbitration and likely increase the settlement. I told him i would pursue every avenue for as long as it took and let him decide every step of the way. I took all of these actions In a good faith effort to lesson my brother's financial burden.

He's a grown man and knows I went to bat for him as best I could - and in the end, all I'll have is a few bucks (not enough to replace my M) and an empty garage.

And now, if you don't mind, I'm going to stop chatting with you and go sit at the grown up table again.

sweendogy · March 2012

Listen to yourself - it's irreplaceable - dude it's a car, get a grip - and it's an m3 not a Lamborghini or worse his or your life - paper work, FedEx, claims. Who cares. If that's the grown up table - i have no interesting in eating what your cooking-

fedlawman · March 2012

You're right, it is just a car. I come here to talk about cars. This is a car forum.

Members here are adults and know the difference between playful banter and personal insults. Why then would you childishly try to insult me with a personal attack?

"squeeze extra money and threaten arbitration on a relative"

If that's what you think, that's fine. But keep you personal insults to yourself please. They are baseless have have no place here.

graphicguy · March 2012

nyc....you're a BMW owner. I can tell it before you even take delivery..... :P

Wanna hear the outcome!

Fed.....happy for you that all this worked out in an agreeable fashion.

fedlawman · March 2012

Thanks graphicguy!

nyccarguy · March 2012

Why not go "all in" and see if there is some 335xi demo that qualifies for the cheap financing and the rebates?

I got a speeding ticket for going 81 in a 55 on my way to work this AM (in my 201 hp, 4cy TSX). I would have easily been going close to triple digits in an N55 powered 335xi. $299 fine - ouch.

nyccarguy · March 2012

Thanks GG. Nothing is definite until I sign the papers. Keeping my fingers crossed.

sweendogy · March 2012

I was responding to your rock bottom comment and having to move of you were a g owner. If you are that sensitive i might think twice before throwing jabs- especially when you tell the tale of the irreplaceable m3.

Again on a value alone basis the G is the better value, that has been my agrument all along- now this is tough for BMW and AcuHra owners to understand - I have never said the g was the better car- but better value when compared to BMW.

flightnurse · March 2012

Sweeny why are you so augmentative and at times downright rude to people. Just because people don't follow what you think is right, doesn't mean it is wrong. The discussion in this group has an ebb and flow, right now a member of the group lost a car they enjoyed and loved, he was able to vent it frustration get some great advice, and will move on. I think if he went to the Porsche forum he would have gotten bombarded with a group of people like yourself. One side saying, Stay away from the 993, the 997 is a much better car because....... The other side would say, oh forget them, the 993 is far better then 997because.....

Why can't you accept that not everybody likes the G. It is not the end of the world.

flightnurse · March 2012

Hey NYC I believe all 2011 3 series will qualify for special financing even demo's... At the BMW dealer where I got my 2011 they have $4500 rebate money on all 2011 in stock even loaners.

flightnurse · March 2012

Sweeny again if people went with better value we all would be driving hyundai's, not BMW or Infiniti's.

sweendogy · March 2012

Correct about the value comment but those cars you mentioned are again not listed on the right side of the page. So my comment stands as written. Flight love your passion but you've one again landed on the wrong runway.

I hope NYC (who is on topic) gets a special "experimental" deal on his new 328, I enjoy reading about his experiance because it's relavant and has some value to this board. Plus the guy is trading in a TSx as well- could not have a better example - he's moving from one of the lowest rated cars her to the highest one. It's not M3 to should I get a Porsche-

nyccarguy · March 2012

$4500? I wonder if that if for RWD models only??? I know of the $2500 rebate.

sweendogy · March 2012

nyc this might be a leader ad or experimental sale situation- edmunds reporting 2500 per 2011 3 on the incentives page.- worth checking into for sure who knows- its march im sure most dealers are craving to loosen up

tlong · March 2012

Correct about the value comment but those cars you mentioned are again not listed on the right side of the page.

So that means no more arguments about the TSX? :surprise:

sweendogy · March 2012

I like your approach but I can argue why it's here in the first place- 2 acuras every other make has one- If I said to you tsx 6cyl vs g37 no question the g wins in both value and performance - ask the 11 owners of the v6 tsx. Now if you said the tsx 4 vs the g25 - well I would have to defer to someone who drOve the 25- or why the brain at Nissan why it was made. I think it should not be here in 25 form like the is250. The regal GS has its eyes on the tsx, more power manual and better looking - but that is a different fight. Why not addthe turbo sonata - its got more power leather and a nav just like the tsx?
I think the tsx gets a pass here bc 10 years ago it was added and over those 10 years the group has changed but it remains.

flightnurse · March 2012

When I have time, I'll post the dealer I saw that at.. I want to saw it was in NY on Long Island but not too sure.

sweendogy · March 2012

cant wait to see the post- i live close may jump on that as well- looking for 335 x with 6 speed-- hope its not a leader ad thou

tlong · March 2012

I like your approach but I can argue why it's here in the first place- 2 acuras every other make has one- If I said to you tsx 6cyl vs g37 no question the g wins in both value and performance - ask the 11 owners of the v6 tsx. Now if you said the tsx 4 vs the g25 - well I would have to defer to someone who drOve the 25- or why the brain at Nissan why it was made. I think it should not be here in 25 form like the is250. The regal GS has its eyes on the tsx, more power manual and better looking - but that is a different fight. Why not addthe turbo sonata - its got more power leather and a nav just like the tsx?
I think the tsx gets a pass here bc 10 years ago it was added and over those 10 years the group has changed but it remains.

But you yourself agreed that it's the cars listed on the right that are relevant. Unless you want to change that. I guess I was looking for a little consistency.

nyccarguy · March 2012

I really do feel for you. When you asked the question about insurance here, my stomach actually got a knot. I remember when you sold your TSX for that M3. Obviously we all know the most important thing is that you and your brother did not get hurt. You did drive that car as it was meant to be driven. I know you enjoyed it every time you turned the key. I'm proud of you & you truly deserve a round of applause.

I have a friend who works in the insurance biz & he just offered me this suggestion:

Tell them he's going to contact the Department of Insurance to report them for "Bad Faith" and retain an attorney to sue them for the same. He could wind up getting what he reasonably needs/wants plus attorney fees and maybe even more $$$. Insurance Companies dont want to be found practicing "bad faith". That's very illegal and carries a lot of unwanted attention and penalties.

sweendogy · March 2012

Correct but I ask again what's the criteria for making the short list _ it's never been explained / I think the tsx is a great value for this group- but why is it here to begin with? with bigger faster more advanced cars. I've been very consistent with this stance.

flightnurse · March 2012

NYC, when using the term "bad faith" use to scare insurance companies years ago, however if Fed's insurance company has enough data to prove their case, they wont be scared. But of course it is worth trying.

flightnurse · March 2012

Why isn't the VW CC not included in this group? Just had one as a rental in San Diego, have to say, was very impressed. It meets all the criteria of a ELLPS ? How about Chrysler 300C? I had a 300C in San Jose, it was 2012 MY and it had 177 miles on it. Very impressed with the fit and finish of the car from the previous generation.

flightnurse · March 2012

NYC I can't find the $4500 rebate, however I found this.

0.9% Annual Percentage Rate Offer. $2,500 Allowance available. First Two Payments, up to $500 per payment, paid by BMW Financial Services.
Qualified customers only. Available at participating BMW centers through BMW Financial Services NA, LLC. Applies only to specific models and only for specific model years. 0.9% APR for 36 months available through April 02, 2012. $28.16 per $1,000. Also available, 0.9% APR for 37-60 months.

Rates shown are based on the Super Elite/Elite/Standard credit tier level. Program available to qualified customers only. Not everyone will qualify. Subject to credit approval. See participating dealer for details. See participating BMW center for details and vehicle availability.

The link is http://www.azbmw.com/bmwfs.asp I found it interesting that the 335i has $2500 + $1850 in option credit which is close to $4500.. Is your dealer giving you the same interest rate as what I posted?

flightnurse · March 2012

Sweeny why would buy a car that is inferior to your G35? Why lower yourself to drive a BMW? Remember for you it is all about Value, and in your words, BMW is not a value car.

sweendogy · March 2012

you are trying to tweak me-which I actually enjoy. value wise Infiniti g beats BMW-but as I said in the past it's not a better car then 335 form. 328 nice rig but it's 40k gives you a softer 6 - and most peeps get them in auto form which for me handicaps performance. I have mentioned I'm looking for a 2010-2011 335 x drive with stick because i miss rowing my own boat - and Infiniti will no bring a stick in awd form or I would already have it because yes I like 10k (or more) in saving and 90% (?) of the performance and lux. Can't wait to see the 4500 (leader?) of the 2011s you speak bc that actually kills my value agrument which is ok if I'm getting a deal. Why again did you new my age? (3rd time I ask)

nyccarguy · March 2012

Thanks for the info. Yes I am getting the 0.9% apr for 60 months (they're also offering 1.9% for 72 months). The 328xi currently has the .9%, $2500, & 2 payment waiver. The 335xi offers the $1850 option credit which basically gives you AWD for free.

While my son is taking a nap after a very eventful 3yr old birthday party, I'm going to go out & clean the TSX.

m6user · March 2012

Why isn't the VW CC not included in this group? Just had one as a rental in San Diego, have to say, was very impressed. It meets all the criteria of a ELLPS ?

And when did VW become a luxury brand? Chrysler is like Buick....premium but not luxury brand. How many luxury brands sell minivans???

ivan_99 · March 2012

I agree with the VW CC being added (not like it's a vote...). I would rank it higher than many in this group; and if price is included it would be near the top.

How about the departed VW Phaeton? That has 'some' luxury elements to it

How about the Hyundai Genesis 5.0 R-Spec...seems luxurious and sporty (for under 50k).

I think the exclusivity of a name (take your pick, MB, Lexus, etc) is fading now that you can option-up solid, well-build 'regular' vehicles. IMO there are some 'lesser' vehicles such as a Focus Titanium (and soon ST) that are more rewarding and more luxurious than a TSX (no offense to TSX owners...I actually like the old and new ones).

Of course the luxury dealer network also comes into play. My Lexus dealer is far above any another other I've visited (Audi, Infiniti)

I'm not certain the omission of a mini-van is a qualifier for luxury status; MB R-Class (no sliding doors...but we all know it's a mini-van). As well as many other "suv's" that are mini-van's with the convenient sliding doors removed.

Could be I just don't see the value of the "name" club anymore...

m6user · March 2012

Could be I just don't see the value of the "name" club anymore...

I agree to a degree but just because someone doesn't see the value doesn't mean they don't exist. There are still clearly luxury brands versus main brands or whatever one wants to call them and luxury brands are what is in the title of this forum. I don't think anyone would pay the money for some of these brands if the warranty and dealer experience were like going to your Ford dealer. It's a package deal.

cdnpinhead · March 2012

in a colleague's Kia rental last week, it's becoming apparent, at least to me, that all cars are really good these days

I rented a Dodge Charger at MSP because National didn't have any GM cars available--this time of the year they want to rent trucks, but I want a car. I don't especially like GM stuff, but I do know where to find all the controls (it's called standard work). Either way, the Charger was a fine ride, and I figured out most of its controls fairly quickly (except for the fuel door release, which took awhile).

The charger and the Kia were both worlds better than most cars available 10 years ago.

Given the pissing match that this board has become, mostly due to him who shall remain nameless, it's still worth pointing out that ALL these cars are good. Everyone is railing about marginal stuff.

Not a bad place to be.

sweendogy · March 2012

Good points - I would also add people are keeping there cars longer then try did 10 years ago- quality, Kia Hyundai has brought a new dynamic to the overall car market that cheap cars that run as good as any. Cars today need gas and oil (every 5-10k) an not much else over the first 30k miles, so maintence cosra are low as well. Consumer reports had Subaru as it's top overall manufacture- a niche company at best 10 years ago here in the states.
I agree the pissing by "him" stinks even thou hes opinions differ from ours- as long as he backs his comments with fact- or reviews he should continue.

mkahn21 · March 2012

I haven't researched this class since 2006, when I bought a TL. Still love that car: >95K miles and going strong.

We're replacing our other car (a crossover), and I want another entry lux sport sedan. Price limit: low $40s. Must have AWD, and at least a tendency toward the aggressive/handling rather than the comfort/luxury end of the spectrum. Finally, the nav and controls must be highly intuitive.

I test drove 3 cars this weekend: G37x, S60 T6, and A4 quattro. All had similar "premium" packages and navigation. I ruled out the new TL, my dad has one and I don't like the interface and am "meh" on the styling. Plus it feels too big. Heck, I think I even like my previous generation TL better.

Impressions:

G37x: Awesome drive, great interior. I left the lot trying to think of something I didn't like about the car. Trunk space isn't huge ... that's about it. I couldn't find a compromise anywhere. Really a standard bearer, even 4 model years into its generational life.

S60 T6: I didn't expect to love this car, but I did. I thought its handling and power were up there with the Infiniti. Plus the seats are amazingly comfortable, and the exterior styling really appeals to me. The only drawback is the nav system/computer - I thought the buttons were too small and the whole interactive experience was less easy than it could be. Still, a great car and a welcome surprise.

A4 quattro: Outside and in, this car is gorgeous, beautiful, luxurious, well-appointed, pick the adjective. It's just a pleasure to look at, sit in, and touch. Even the nav/multiscreen monitor was pleasant to look at. The handling is superb and it's probably the most athletic of the 3 around corners. The word "taut" readily comes to mind. I just wish it were quicker off the line. The A4 didn't leave me breathless the way the other 2 did.

For value (which I define as how much power and goodies you get for your money), I think the G37x is a star: $2K-$3K less than the others comparably equipped, and $7K less than the BMW 335i xDrive, which I'd buy if money were no object.

This class really is impressive with a lot of smart, good choices. I'll be buying my G37x shortly and will hopefully get many years of pleasure from it ...

... Unless anyone suggests I check out another option I've missed?

cdnpinhead · March 2012

. . .agree the pissing by "him" stinks . . .

Now, that's funny.

sweendogy · March 2012

Good luck man- Don't know if you are up east but alot of competition with dealers you should get a good deal.

flightnurse · March 2012

If you haven't driven a CC give one a try, the feel, the touch of the interior is very much luxury, the fit and finish is that of Audi and BMW. Just because it says VW and not Audi doesn't mean it shouldn't be listed. Again, the new 300 is a far cry from the previous Gen... Just wish the engineers didn't program the tranny to upshift so fast and allow the engine to go into ECO mode so quick. Other then that, the fit and finish is first rate, the power is better then most car listed as ELLPS.

flightnurse · March 2012

Again why would you lower yourself in buying a BMW, with the amount of time you wasted telling myself and others that BMW are not good values, it comes out that you have secretly been lusting for one, jealously isn't a good thing Sweeny. So with all of your rants and jabs you really wanted a BMW...

sweendogy · March 2012

Do you read posts ?

nyccarguy · March 2012

2012 BMW 328i vs. 2012 Mercedes-Benz C250 vs. 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro

stickguy · March 2012

why aren't you out shopping?

robbieg · March 2012

Have you sat in a Toureg? Those things are awesome. Just because a car company makes a car that sells for 16000 doesn't mean it can't make a luxury car. A loaded up CC is as nice inside as a Toureg.

Does Lexus even sell any IS 350s? The TSX is for buyers that can't or won't pay 40,000 for a sports sedan. Isn't a manual transmission G a sportier car than a BMW 328 with a slushbox?

nyccarguy · March 2012

I'm working. Going tomorrow to have the TSX appraised by Wide World BMW. Trying not to put too many miles on it.

Since it is gorgeous out today, I took the Prelude to work. Kept it at 65 mph on the way in.

dbledmndk2 · March 2012

Thanks for sharing your impressions and I recently just had to make a similar decision, although I didn't even test drive the Volvo. Like you I ruled out the TL right away as the interface was really clunky and while I liked the reliability and the Honda lineage I wanted something a little different.

I ended up going with the G37x because the lease deal was way better than the A4 and I've been really happy for my first 3 weeks with the car. Filling up the first time is a little eye opening and seeing the MPG never climb above 20 is also a little concerning, but the thing is like a rocket (and almost as loud) and it's a lot of fun to drive.

Good luck with the purchase!

m6user · March 2012

What's your point. A G is an Infiniti which is the luxury division of Nissan. Isn't Audi the luxury division of VW? I could name half a dozen cars that have power and feel luxurious but that doesn't make them luxury cars. Like I said before, a luxury car comes as a package with the dealer experience part of that package. From what I've heard and read, going to a VW dealership for service is not usually a pleasant experience.

What does how many IS 350s are sold have to do with anything? I would assume a G stick is a little sportier than a BMW 328 with auto. Does that mean the 328 shouldn't be discussed here? You make no sense.

I don't disagree that a CC or Toureg or Tiguan may feel nice and drive nice. But that doesn't make them ELLPS especially the the SUVs because they aren't even sedans. And again, VW is not and certainly doesn't market itself as a luxury brand.

Yes, btw, I have sat in both and the Tiguan and the Jetta GLI just a few weeks ago at the auto show. They are nice but not luxury vehicles.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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