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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    The dealer is Milsch (www.milschdodge.com) just 3 miles north of DCX's tech center in Auburn Hills.

    Found no such dealer but there is a Milosch.
    link title

    Sadly they have no internet specials I'll call them tomorrow and get my 10K off. Oh wait I remember sell the appointment not the price!

    They show 2 at the price you said not 20. I bet they aren't even there!
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    than people who live and drive in Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah? :blush:
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222
    Hi, Hans,

    This topic's for the Ody vs. DC minivans. Before this offshoot goes any further, you can continue this discussion in the Odyssey vs. Sienna discussion already in progress.

    MODERATOR

    Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review

  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Cars direct has it at 26,250! I've never seen anything like that. Last guy on here had to go all over the place to get a stripped GC SXT for 22K! Now I wonder if you try and open a checking account they will try and give me a Dodge GC SXT SE?? I'll start looking for something in the paper LOL! So much for Stow and Go helping resale, if you have to sell a car at 10K off in the beginning of the year your in DEEP CRAP!!! Good thing it's probably not real!! Or you guys who bought a new DCX van are gonna have to keep it 15 years!!

    Thank God everybody buys their cars from carsdirect.com!!! How many millions of times have I seen postings from Honda buyers traveling all over the country to buy one? or sending out 100s of emails looking for a deal?? I lost count!!!

    I'm really confused here now....I thought nobody would see more than a few thousand dollars difference between and Ody and GC?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Yes, but in a couple of years the LX strippo will still be worth over $20K. What will the Grand Caravan be worth? And if DC can sell it for $21.5K, why do they list it for $10K more? Seems to me like they are trying to rip people off.

    But in a couple years, what will be the value of the money I saved, adding interest to possible $10k? plus the extra cost to Ody owners of having to finance that much more $$$$? Tack that onto my resale value.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    It is Milosch...... www.miloschdodge.com. I called before I posted and was told they had 20 available, I assumed in stock?

    FYI - could have sworn I've seen $1000 dealer incentives on Odys, I think in the back of Automotive News recently.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    In VERY FINE PRINT, at bottom of Milosch Ad....

    Employee Discount Applies.... you must be DCX employee or have family member who works for DCX, or have an employee extend discount to you (like my buddy did for me last year).

    Sorry for getting everyone worked up.
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    A recent listing of the ten best vehicles by category from a major online pricing service shows only one US nameplate: Corvette. The Odyssey was listed as tops for resale in the minivan category.

    It stands to reason that a new American brand minivan with MSRP of $33,000, selling for $24,000 is not going to fetch much in a couple of years. An Odyssey with MSRP of $31,345, selling for $28,750 will be worth about $20,000 in two years. As long as GM, Ford and DCX keep dumping 10,000s of their vans into rental fleets the resale will never go up.

    I have owned minivans from VW, Pontiac, Nissan, Dodge, Ford, Oldsmobile and now an '06 Odyssey. Usually I trade every 3 -4 years so resale is important although, as you can see, I have bought models with very poor resale. There is no comparison between the American brands and the Honda. The Odyssey just feels and sounds solid. It matters not to me whether or not there might be rust on the engine block or how big is the engine. What counts is comfort, safety, quiet and the ability to get out of its own way. The 2003 Olds I owned was very reliable but it was a terrible example of fit and finish. The Olds actually had an MSRP $2,000 higher than my Odyssey yet it rattled and squeaked like a piece of junk.

    Last year I was selected to take part in a paid opinion survey where I got to climb in and around a number of brand new 2005 minivans. I then got to test drive four vans, all with under 500 miles on the odometer: Relay, Freestar, Town and Country and Odyssey. The Ford clunked and rattled like a piece of junk. The T & C was ok but its ride was not on a par with the Relay and the Odyssey. The Odyssey should not have even been in that mix because it was just head and shoulders above all the way round. Keep in mind I owned an Olds at the time and it would be another year before I bought the Honda.

    Someone mentioned they thought Honda was offering a $1,000 incentive on the Odyssey. So? That Honda, reduced by a $1,000 will still be worth $1,000s more than its American counterparts at trade-in time.

    One other point: The Odyssey is manufactured in Lincoln, AL, deep in the South. The only major component made in Japan is the transmission.

    Let the arrows fly.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    n VERY FINE PRINT, at bottom of Milosch Ad....

    Employee Discount Applies.... you must be DCX employee or have family member who works for DCX, or have an employee extend discount to you (like my buddy did for me last year).

    Sorry for getting everyone worked up.


    Well that makes sense. Didn't get me worked up, I knew it wasn't real right from the get-go. But I thought the salesman said it was a "cash only" deal?? Liars, period!!

    I recently found a connection to buy at employee pricing (yes, it's much better than the employee pricing deal they were advertising for half the summer). I'll probably buy another Ram this spring under the program. It's good for about $8,000 off sticker with current incentives. I still wouldn't buy the T&C just because it doesn't meet my needs/wants. Maybe the next gen if they spiffy it up.
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    By your numbers, the Ody will cost $8750k for the first 2 years. Would a $33k DCX van selling at 24k be worth $15,250 (<50%) after 2 years for the same cost of ownership?

    Since you buy/trade every couple years, you need to look at both sides, up front costs and what it is worth when you are done with the vehicle. Implying the Ody will cost less because of its tremendous? residual is only doing half the research. Everyone should run their own numbers for the prices they can pay/get for their vehicles.
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    $8k off MSRP for RAM's is okay for now, but waiting until spring will save even more, assuming they continue the employee choice program past December 31st, 2005. I'd target $11k off minimum. This past September I saw $14k off 2005 models.

    BTW, I prefer cash deals. I get great rates from my credit union (currently 4.49% up to 5yr). I've always been ahead by taking cash rebates instead of MFR's "low interest rates," even zero percent financing. Cash deal does not mean one needs to have cash in the bank.
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    I'm really confused here now....I thought nobody would see more than a few thousand dollars difference between and Ody and GC?

    It is unless your friend/wife brother works for DCX.

    How many millions of times have I seen postings from Honda buyers traveling all over the country to buy one? or sending out 100s of emails looking for a deal?? I lost count!!!

    How few people post anything about there DCX van purchase? Seems that ethier they are ashamed of there deals or they just don't post. dennisctc posted almost half of the last 10 posts there! And how long ago did you buy your car??
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Purchasers of DC minivans usually do not pay MSRP or above and are very satisfied with their purchase. They do not search the internet to see if they can get a nice discount. Many DC minivan owners are repeat buyers and are completely satisfied with their purchase.
    I posted the price I paid for my used 2002 Chrysler T&C LX after I purchased it almost 18 months ago. ;)
    My friend did NOT purchase an Odyssey 2 months ago after considering the Odd EX, GC SXT, and Sienna LE. He purchased a new 2006 Sienna LE because the dealer had the exact vehicle in stock and gave a nice discount. He did not like Odd dealer's policy of placing a $ 500 NON-Refundable deposit to get on the waiting list for a 2006 Odd EX with a paltry $ 789 discount.
    If I were purchasing at this time, I would get a 2006 GC SXT and the Odd EX would be 3rd choice after Sienna LE.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    It is unless your friend/wife brother works for DCX.

    Even if you factor out EP pricing, this dealer is still about $6k-$7k less than an Ody.
  • fljoslinfljoslin Member Posts: 237
    Reply to:
    Even if you factor out EP pricing, this dealer is still about $6k-$7k less than an Ody.

    And that is probably about what it is worth. You are getting a cheaper van for less money. That is what should happen. But according to DC, GM and Ford, you are really saving a whole bunch of money. Who knows how many million dollars off the MSRP. According to the big three MSRPs their vans are worth as much or more than Honda and Toyota. Who are they trying to fool?
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    about $6k-$7k less than an OdyEven if you factor out EP pricing, this dealer is still .

    Thats if you don't try and equip it with the same kind of stuff! Even hans says 3800.00 and he's no pro honda guy! You have no idea beacause you got a INSIDERS deal and there is no traffic on the DCX prices paid board Expect for you. So you should try the TMV or some other buying page. ENJOY!!!!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    You have no idea beacause you got a INSIDERS deal and there is no traffic on the DCX prices paid board

    How many people actually buy via a car buying website...not too many. Especially when most are so outdated i.e...changing rebates, dealer incentives etc... Most just make buyers who don't negotiate feel good getting their vehicle at TMV etc...

    Didn't you once say EP was only $3k? Yet this dealer is offering $10k off. My EP discount was $3900. So it's logical to assume someone else should be able to get $6k - $7k off from a dealer.

    You may want to check out the DCX prices paid board - there have been a few others getting great deals, who didn't get "insider" deal.

    Lets all kneel to HANS, keeper of all auto pricing knowledge! Or maybe Carsdirect.com, or TMV pricing....any board or site that makes Honda not seem so over priced.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    GC SXT MSRP $ 27,830
    Odd EX MSRP $ 28,945
    Each has power sliding doors both sides, each has 8 way power driver's seat, each has 60/40 split fold-into-the-floor 3rd row seating, each has cast wheels, each has PS, PB, 4 wheel disc ABS, Power heated windows, Power Door locks, 3 zone temperature control, rear A/C and rear heater,....and the list goes on.

    The Odd EX has a few extra items while the GC SXT has other extra items. When the real world "Actual Price" in my area is $28,205 for the Odd EX and $24,400 for the GC SXT, my choice is the GC SXT. If I could save an additional $ 3,4, 5, or 6K more as dennis has done, the GC SXT becomes an even better choice. ;)

    If I let CR do my thinking, I would buy the Odd EX and make my savings account $ 4,056 lighter ($ 3,805 difference in actual price + the additional 6.6 % sales tax on $ 3,805). :shades:
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    Didn't you once say EP was only $3k? Yet this dealer is offering $10k off. My EP discount was $3900. So it's logical to assume someone else should be able to get $6k - $7k off from a dealer.

    3K off For the setup you bought said so on the Dodge website(maybe they don't know what they're doing?). All cars with different options have different EP pricing makes sense RIGHT?? Not logicial at all it's a a AD to get people in the door(why do you think the DCX employee thing was so SMALL!!). Once your there they try to get you to pay as close to sticker as they can. While I was doing my deal at Cerritos Dodge one of the saleman came in and said what can we sell a Intrepid with these options for?? The sales manager said I'll come over to you next! The saleman said oh it's a call in. So the manager said don't talk price sell the appointment and not the price. I was floored but saleman are saleman!

    You may want to check out the DCX prices paid board - there have been a few others getting great deals, who didn't get "insider" deal.

    Just looked nothing in months unless your post from yesterday counts. Oh that only for DCX employees and probably 1 at this price! ;)

    Lets all kneel to HANS, keeper of all auto pricing knowledge! Or maybe Carsdirect.com, or TMV pricing....any board or site that makes Honda not seem so over priced.

    Honda's not overpriced for me, maybe you!! As for Hans way better than your one year old inside deal as the golden standard!!
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    the Honda's would not be overpriced. :shades:
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    3K off For the setup you bought said so on the Dodge website(maybe they don't know what they're doing?). All cars with different options have different EP pricing makes sense RIGHT?? Not logicial at all it's a a AD to get people in the door(why do you think the DCX employee thing was so SMALL!!). Once your there they try to get you to pay as close to sticker as they can. While I was doing my deal at Cerritos Dodge one of the saleman came in and said what can we sell a Intrepid with these options for?? The sales manager said I'll come over to you next! The saleman said oh it's a call in. So the manager said don't talk price sell the appointment and not the price. I was floored but saleman are saleman!

    I won't quibble with what the EP is now vs. when I got it a year ago. Let's just use your $3000. So this one dealer, at least is willing to knock off almost $7000. Doesn't appear my one year old deal is much of a golden standard, since others can get close to it.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I think some of the confusion on EP is from what was published during the "everyone gets EP price days" which wasn't really as great of a deal as normal EP pricing. The rebates were different, and the EP pricing was not at the full EP level. There are different levels of EP pricing based on who the employee works for (supplier, DC, DC subsidiary, etc.). This is the real website for DC employee pricing https://www.fleet.chrysler.com/employeeadvantage/login.jsp

    During the "sale" you could get pricing off the DC websites when you built a car, but the discount was not nearly at normal employee level. That being said, it still appears the numbers posted above are very very low, and there are probably some additional catches or rebates that aren't available to the general public. From what I can tell there's about $4,000-$5,000 difference between equal DC and Honda minivans. Which is more than when I was shopping. Equally equipped, I could only come up with about a $3500 difference back in April '05.

    VSC alone could account for a decent chunk of that difference. Automotive news reported awhile back that stability control adds about $400 to the manufacturers cost, so figure $600-$800 to the consumer. The Honda also has a far more advanced navigation system. I imagine if the DC mininvans had the higher-end features, the price difference wouldn't be as great.
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    The Odd EX has a few extra items while the GC SXT has other extra items.

    I don't think stability control and head curtain airbags qualify as a "few extra items". Most safety experts will tell you that electronic stability control is as essential as airbags. What about three row head curtain airbags? The Odyssey is the only minivan to have them with a rollover sensor as standard. They are an option on DCX vans.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    "I don't think stability control and head curtain airbags qualify as a "few extra items".

    Sure they do. One(stability control)....two(side curtain airbags). Two items...thats a "few".
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    quite costly extra items though.

    And who is not paying close to invoice on an ody ex? Go to the ody price paid discussion, people are paying $26k plus or minus a couple hundred for ex. And what is the SXT price IF it is equipped close to the ody ex?
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    During the Employee pricing for all promotion, the EP price was indeed the exact same price employees used to and still get. DCX just lowered the rebates during that promotion on every vehicle such that real employees were paying more ($1000-3000). Everyone else was was getting a similar price to invoice - old rebates with no haggling.

    EP discount is close to $3k on a $28k DCX minivan. Every option has a different EP price, so $3500, $3900 is possible. That's still before any rebates/dealer discounts.

    The 2006 DGC Special Edition (no options) has a $3569 EP discount, minus rebates.
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    DGC SXT w/ the 6-disc CD changer and side curtain airbags has an MSRP of $28,635 compared to the Odyssey's $28,945 MSRP. That's as close as you can get the two configured as far as equipment goes. There are still some exclusive features to each one.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Standard on GC SXT...NOT available even as an option on Odd EX. ;)
    Many people like Stow 'N Go which is standard on GC SXT and NOT available on Odd EX.
    I remember all the bragging about the "Magic Seat" when it was an Odd exclusive. Fold into the floor 2nd row seating is just as significant for many people as is 60/40 split 3rd row introduced by the Sienna.
    Power Liftgate is optional on the GC SXT for $ 400 but NOT available on the Odd EX.

    If I wanted to drive most aggressively, the Odd VSC, Most powerful engine and side curtain airbags would be important even though these items are not important to me and most people who are defensive drivers. :blush:
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Offer a GC LE positioned between the GC SE and GC SXT. Include the nicer SXT interior but delete the 2 power sliding doors, cast wheels, power driver's seat, 2nd row fold-into-the-floor seat, lighted visor vanity mirrors, and use the 3.3L V6. Price it $2,000 to $3,000 less than the GC SXT. ;)
    The GC SE now looks too cheap inside for me to seriously consider. As it now is, the GC SE costs MORE than the GC SXT if many of the extras on the GC SXT are added to the GC SXT...and the 3.8L V6, cast wheels, power rear vent windows, etc. are not included and are not even optional. :confuse:
  • fljoslinfljoslin Member Posts: 237
    Re:
    Offer a GC LE positioned between the GC SE and GC SXT. Include the nicer SXT interior but delete the 2 power sliding doors, cast wheels, power driver's seat, 2nd row fold-into-the-floor seat, lighted visor vanity mirrors, and use the 3.3L V6. Price it $2,000 to $3,000 less than the GC SXT.
    The GC SE now looks too cheap inside for me to seriously consider. As it now is, the GC SE costs MORE than the GC SXT if many of the extras on the GC SXT are added to the GC SXT...and the 3.8L V6, cast wheels, power rear vent windows, etc. are not included and are not even optional.


    I have no idea what you just said in this post. I feel that the list of options and getting what you want is too confusing and not worth the aggravation. I cannot easily figure out what I want, let alone get different prices from different dealers for that vehicle or other similar ones. This is part of the reason that I chose to buy a 2006 Odyssey EX-L. I knew that I wanted an EX or above and was not going to pay for a Touring. I really wanted the leather seating and the VCM; the sun roof is a nice option. Once I had made that decision, all that I had to do was find an EX-L period. I did not even care about the color. The long options list available on DC and Toyota would be nice if you could order exactly what you wanted and there was no price compromise. I do not believe that is reasonably possible. You must choose from option packages that the dealers WANT to sell and then try to figure out what each different one is worth to you.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    While it may be difficult to decide which individual options of Caravan, Grand Caravan, or Town & Country they would prefer. :confuse:
    Many DC dealers will let a customer order a minivan with the exact options they want. Many DC dealers also maintain a nice inventory while a few have the Honda policy of equipping each model exactly the same. :blush:
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    Standard on GC SXT...NOT available even as an option on Odd EX.

    To me a trip computer is another annoying boble. I do like the maintenance minder and the infloor lockable storage!

    Many people like Stow 'N Go which is standard on GC SXT and NOT available on Odd EX.

    The third row on the Ody goes down(and from what I hear it's way easier) not many family guys are gonna need all the seats down. If I do I can take them out in 2 minutes!!BTW I've only had the rear seat down twice just to show how easy it is to do!! I have way more storage area back there compared to the DCX vans!

    If I wanted to drive most aggressively, the Odd VSC, Most powerful engine and side curtain airbags would be important even though these items are not important to me and most people who are defensive drivers.

    You maybe a defensive driver but you can't get out of all situations! Allot of the people I know who get into bad accidents are always saying what GOOD drivers they are I think they get careless! So if your driving down a two lane road at 50 and all the sudden a guy cuts right into your lane and there's a high sholder. If you go over you flip and if you stay on you hit offset. Boy I think you'd like side airbags with roolover protection!! Of course defensive driving skills would make the car stop immediately!

    Power Liftgate is optional on the GC SXT for $ 400 but NOT available on the Odd EX.

    Another one of those GEE Whiz thinks that will just break, I'm happy someone didn't push that on me!!
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    "Another one of those GEE Whiz thinks that will just break, I'm happy someone didn't push that on me!!"

    People used to say that about power seats, locks, moonroofs, etc. Now? They are conveniences, just like the power rear gate. One really doesn't understand until he lives with such conveniences. It's a low cost option for DCX vans with manual override *if* it breaks. Many people find it valuable. For every one of you, there are 2 other minivan buyers who wants a power liftgate. If those people were pleased with an Ody EX equipment, but really wanted the power liftgate, they'd have to pay $8k more for a Touring model and may not care about the other equipment in that package.
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    Honda: Simple packages for simple minds. Give the buyer what we want J/K

    Ala cart options vs. packages/trim levels
    DCX vs. Honda

    There are pros and cons for each from both the producer and consumer viewpoint. As a buyer who would have to deal with a DCX dealer who orders what packages/equipment they want to sell, he has the same problem w/ Honda. It's just the manufacturer who decides that instead of the dealer. I don't see the difference, except DCX allows to you order more specifically what you want.

    If EX equipment + leather is all you cared about, GC SXT or T&C touring + leather group (give or take any other options) would have been just as easy to find. Maybe more difficult to negotiate with varying equipment, but just as easy to find.
  • kfdmedkfdmed Member Posts: 130
    The dual power doors and power liftgate are of great value and convenience to many including myself. I would never consider a van without. The power side doors are great when picking the kids up from preschool. The kids are escorted out to the van and I push the power doors to let them in and then close them without leaving my seat. Have you ever dropped your wife off at the store and then pick her up when she has a handful of stuff? I push the power liftgate and she loads up the back. I dont have to get out and she doesn't have to put the stuff down to open the liftgate.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Odd power sliding doors are a good example while DC power sliding doors have a better design so they work easily if they should ever break.
    If power liftgate is not a good idea, why did Honda put it on the MOST expensive Odd Touring? :blush: Why does the Odd Touring have items that are NOT on the LX or EX but can be had on a much less expensive GC SE? (miles to empty and compass)? :confuse:
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    VSC alone could account for a decent chunk of that difference. Automotive news reported awhile back that stability control adds about $400 to the manufacturers cost, so figure $600-$800 to the consumer. The Honda also has a far more advanced navigation system.

    You need to take into consideration the DCX side also. It's not just VSC that costs extra. What about the cost of retooling an entire chasis at about $300 million for Stow N Go, additional cost for special seats, added assembly cost, the cost of having to build millions of variations vs. Honda five basic offerings etc..... Honda's Nav System is definitely more advanced but it probably saves them money, seeing that it's being used in every Acura/Honda platform with little modification, other than having a voice module on some. Where as DCX's is an after thought really, with much lower volume and limited platform use (i.e..The 300c/Magnum/Jeep navs are totally different units from different supplier).
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I don't believe there'll ever be a feature on a DCX product you'll admit to needing or enjoying!

    The third row on the Ody goes down(and from what I hear it's way easier) not many family guys are gonna need all the seats down. If I do I can take them out in 2 minutes!!BTW I've only had the rear seat down twice just to show how easy it is to do!! I have way more storage area back there compared to the DCX vans!

    Before I purchased my DCX, I tried the seats in the Honda and Toyota, the 3rd row seats all work basically the same, all just as easy. I'd love to time you taking out your seats and figuring out where to put them!!! I bet it's more like 20 minutes out, then another 20 minutes to get em back in!!!

    The sliding doors in the DCX van open manually a lot easier than Toyota or Honda.

    I'll take my 8-10 cubic feet of covered "Stow N Go" storage over a spare tire hole left over from previous generation Ody....Opps I meant Lazy Suzy storage!

    Another one of those GEE Whiz thinks that will just break, I'm happy someone didn't push that on me!!

    The only way someone could have push a power hatch on you would have been by pushing a $38,0000 Touring model on you since you can't get it any other way. Based on Honda's record with their power doors, it's probably a good thing anyways!

    VSC/VCM - more of those GEE Whiz things that will just break!!! I'll wait till the fat lady sings that it's ok before needing em!
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    "I'll wait till the fat lady sins that it's ok before needing em!"

    According to all the mag rags, VSC is the greatest thing since the wheel. Since it is a fairly new technology there really isn't much info on the effect it has had. I question how effective it really is. Though if it works as advertised I would want it on my vehicle.You probably have better odds of being struck my lightening than needing VSC...if one is a sensible driver that is. But,ya know about the forest ranger that was struck by lightening ...something like fourteen times. :sick:

    I've only read about one incident here at Edmunds where someones VSC kicked in and helped them out of a slide(it sounded as if he were going to fast for the road conditions). VSC will probably progress much in the way airbags have. Starting out as optional equipment...then becoming standard equipment on pretty much all vehicles.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Actually, there is some significant data out there on stability systems. They've been around for quite a few years now on many models. IIHS has some reports comparing death/injury rates of newer models with stability control, vs older models without. Their conclusion was stability control reduces single-vehicle rollovers by over 50%. Single vehicle rollovers accunt for almost half of all vehicle deaths. SUVs/Trucks have the highest % of rollover deaths, however any vehicle can greatly benefit from stability control.

    Even those of us that drive defensively (i used to race, and tend to be quite aware of my surroundins) can still find themselves in situations they can't control. Anytime you leave the road in a high center of gravity vehicle like a minivan, you have significant risk of rolling over. The stability program corrects for things that is not humanly possible for a driver to correct. I'd be a fool to say "VSC is useless because I'm a defensive driver". Might as well throw the seatbelts, airbags, and ABS out the window as well?

    You really don't have to look any further than the test mags. When they get a car with stability control on the slalom, it's nearly impossible for them to get the vehicle loose.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    You need to take into consideration the DCX side also. It's not just VSC that costs extra. What about the cost of retooling an entire chasis at about $300 million for Stow N Go, additional cost for special seats, added assembly cost, the cost of having to build millions of variations vs. Honda five basic offerings etc.....

    I don't think we really need to get into advanced R&D theory here. The point was the Honda has a directly more expensive standard feature than the DC. The fact that Honda is making money hand over fist with similar R&D cost, moving significantly less vehicles, and offer zero manufacturer discounts certainly says something.

    I'm sure the limited models save Honda quite a bit on manufacturing. Some folks really like it from a shopper standpoint. I don't, but I've yet to ever buy a new vehicle that had everything exactly the way I want it. They all come with some sort of package baggage or they'll never build you one even if it's possible on paper (i.e. Toyota/Lexus :mad: ) I was miffed that the T&C can't have a moonroof with side airbags?? That's just silly!
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    I don't believe there'll ever be a feature on a DCX product you'll admit to needing or enjoying!

    I do like the price! And stow and go is cool just not needed by me!! I like to play the other side of Hans sarcastic propaganda!

    The only way someone could have push a power hatch on you would have been by pushing a $38,0000 Touring model on you since you can't get it any other way. Based on Honda's record with their power doors, it's probably a good thing anyways!

    Like I need a power hatch and really expensive tires that noone can change! I think in a few years I may go with runflat tires because they are great for safty but if it's so hard to replace them then that about throws the atvantages out the door!

    VSC/VCM - more of those GEE Whiz things that will just break!!! I'll wait till the fat lady sings that it's ok before needing em!

    You know I'm just toying with ya! ;) I know how much you like to bust on new technology!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Almost reminds me of ZICAM - the flu medicine you take when you feel a cold coming on and it supposedly shortens the length of the cold? How do you know how long and bad the cold would have been in the first place? :)

    In 5 years of having DSC (Dynamic Stability Control)on my BMW, I believe it kicked in once on an exit ramp with snow/ice.....my back end (RWD with no snow tires) started to slip out, and it felt like nails popped out of my tires and dug into pavement.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    "IIHS has some reports comparing death/injury rates of news models with stability control..."

    If people with stability control are being injured and killed...then how could VSC be doing it's job? I believe you misread the study. The study was based on projections and computer simulations of accidents with and without VSC.

    "I'd be a fool....."

    I agree. Drive nonfoolishly and the odds of ever needing them will be miniscule. Though if you asked people what they preferred (either,or) ...I would think the vast majority would choose seatbelts and airbags over VSC.

    "You really don't have to look any further than the test mags."

    Now you're talking. I subscribe to several mag rags and have never seen any field test studies. I would be interested to see some mag names and publication dates...or links...if it is not to inconvenient. ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    If people with stability control are being injured and killed...then how could VSC be doing it's job? I believe you misread the study. The study was based on projections and computer simulations of accidents with and without VSC.

    Nope, the study compares death/injure rates on models with ESC vs models without. Here's the linky: http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4001.pdf

    I subscribe to Car and Driver and if you read many of their articles, they comment that a certain vehicle was slower through the slalom because it was equpiped with ESC and wouldn't allow them to aggresively toss the vehicle. Sometimes they go into more details, sometimes they don't. Here's a good article though by one of the editors: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9036 pay attention to the first paragraph on page two. Slippery conditions (which even the best defensive drive can stumble upon) was where ESC made a huge difference.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Thanks for the links. Though I certainly hope VSC works as advertised, I still think we need about 4 or 5 years to know for sure to what extent. The NHTSA study did show 42% fewer single vehicle accidents with those equipped with VSC. But, as of 2003 only 7.4% of vehicles were equipped with VSC. I believe most people who have VSC are saftey minded to begin with(as currently VSC is only a option on most models and not standard)So, the NHSTA study may be flawed in that it may be measuring crash statistics from the average driver(non VSC) to those who are more careful and saftey conscious(those who spend more for all the saftey features & VSC).

    Given the choice I would certainly take VSC...it's good insurance. But, ya know...it just sounds toooo good to be true. ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    If you read the fine print, the study was supposed to only compare EXACT models where the only difference was ESC vs non-VSC. So for example they could compared the 1999-2001 model Chevy Tahoes to the 2002 and up models that had ESC. I'm sure there are some variables that make it less than an optimal study, however the results are rather substantial. Having significant cockpit time, I can see in theory how it could substantially help. If you leave the track at high speeds it's quite amazing the amount of control you lose even in a high performance vehicle. I can only imagine how bad it would be in a normal car, minivan, SUV.
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    hanks for the links. Though I certainly hope VSC works as advertised, I still think we need about 4 or 5 years to know for sure to what extent. The NHTSA study did show 42% fewer single vehicle accidents with those equipped with VSC. But, as of 2003 only 7.4% of vehicles were equipped with VSC. I believe most people who have VSC are saftey minded to begin with(as currently VSC is only a option on most models and not standard)So, the NHSTA study may be flawed in that it may be measuring crash statistics from the average driver(non VSC) to those who are more careful and saftey conscious(those who spend more for all the saftey features & VSC).

    Actually there's been about 5 studies of real cars, one done by DCX looking at 1999 non ESC to 2000 models ESC Mercedes. They all come to about the same conclution more than 30% less fatalities and less severe injuries. BTW DCX is going to have all there SUV's with ESC by next year. I think they know it has a big advantage!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    The long options list available on DC and Toyota would be nice if you could order exactly what you wanted and there was no price compromise. I do not believe that is reasonably possible. You must choose from option packages that the dealers WANT to sell and then try to figure out what each different one is worth to you.

    Almost 100% of the new cars I've purchased were ordered exactly as I wanted, without hassles or confusion, and with out price compromise. The only time this doesn't work is when you need a car TODAY! but even then many dealers can locate what you want within a few days. For my DCX Minivan, I needed the factory tow package. The dealer I purchased from happened to have basically what I needed (plus $400 power hatch that I LOVE, and Sunroof which is ok). Other dealers could have had something with Tow package the next day by trading with another dealer.

    So not only is it possible to get exactly what you want, but is done everyday all over this country.

    You must choose from option packages that the dealers WANT to sell and then try to figure out what each different one is worth to you.

    This is not the case at all with DCX....you have for DGC - SE, SXT and SXT Special Edition. They come with many of the basics you need i.e...A/C, windows etc.. Then, if it's not too challenging, you can add individual options like upgraded stereo, power hatch, DVD etc... The DCX vans are very much like Honda's in terms of trim level, but unlike Honda you can customize the DCX van easily. For example...You can only get a power hatch or adjustable peddals on Honda Ody Touring - it's a take all or nothing deal. Some people like the simplicity of just having to choose a color and a package. Dealers will sell anything, anytime!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I don't think we really need to get into advanced R&D theory here. The point was the Honda has a directly more expensive standard feature than the DC.

    That's my point exactly...there's a cost to everything. I work in automotive electronics, with a supplier who supplyes Honda with Voice Nav modules, clusters etc...."advance technology". Just because some of these techologies are electronics doesn't make them expensive...just look at a McDonald's happy meal sometime. You get electronic games for FREE!!! (made in China of course). Honda's VSC, which is used on Pilot, Ridgeline, MDX and Ody is all one of the same! It's a module box ($2), PCB $2, a connector ($0.50 - my piece of the pie), add some electronics...say another $75 - $100 max? Mark it up for OEM, say $125. The toughtest part is integrating in into your automotive archietecture (ABS, Engine control, tranny etc..), and even this is simple. You do it first for MDX, and the others are icing on the cake. Then look at DCX...you can get VSC on trucks, or large cars....all very different vehicles.

    My point was DCX has a directly more expensive standard feature i.e...Stow N Go, then Honda also. I'd bet VSC and Stow N Go would cost about the same. Part of Honda's price advantage can be contributed to lack of union wages and long term cost that DCX is burdened with. Don't get me wrong, Honda pays fair wages. I've been to many DCX/Ford plants - UAW wages are out of line with reality, half the workers are worth half of what they're making - especially when you consider overall quality. I know guys making $60/hour with no education, thinking they deserve it, entitlted to it!!! I think the current Delphi issues will actually help long term....getting wages inline with reality (global economy etc..).
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