Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

markcincinnati · May 2012

I have now reached 15,000 miles on my 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD. I have had two oil changes and at the second change the SH-AWD "fluid" was changed (very expensive.) The tires have been rotated twice.

I keep the tires cold inflated to: front 37, rear 35. I decided to stick with the somewhat crappy OEM tires that came with the car, since they are all-season UHP's and I wanted to go through winter (very light even for Cincinnati) with the OEM's kind of to allow me to "testify" about the OEM selection.

I added 4 splash guards and the backup sensors -- otherwise the thing is bone stock.

I bring my own oil -- Mobil 1 -- for the changes, and all service has been performed by the dealer, Lindsay Acura, Columbus, OH.

This is one boring car from a service perspective. It did, however, seem peppier after the second oil and "fluid" change -- in that respect it reminded me somewhat of my experience with Audi's -- they feel more powerful at 5,000 and again at 10,000 miles.

I am not used to paying for service (Audi and BMW spoiled me in that regard) -- so $230 oil changes including tire rotations are painful. But in fairness, the reason for the expense on the last one was the SH-AWD fluid, which won't be changed again for a long time.

This car seems almost freakishly unfazed by miles and time. There are NO rattles, no wear and tear (inside or out) tells that could give away the car's age (in miles.) Most of my German cars -- my 2005 Audi A6 3.2 quattro being the ONLY exception -- have always started to either feel or (upon examination) show their age by this point.

The last two BMW's developed rattles in a similar time / miles situation. The Audi seemed to be a dirt magnet -- and I wash my cars twice weekly (including vacuuming the interiors), so it is not due to some change in my auto-hygene regimen that I tell you the Acura at 15,000 miles feels totally new, looks new, drives new, etc etc. The only difference is it gets somewhat better mileage now and it has a bit more pep in its step.

Yet the TL remains a compromise car -- it is "in the ballpark" with the Germans I have been used to (and by in the ballpark, I mean broadly: features, content, power, price, etc.) but it is about 9/10ths. Now considering it's VALUE quotient, perhaps it is more than 9/10ths; but, when I push it hard through a curvy back road it makes me think, "this is soooo close, but just not quite there." Of course my lease payments are $100 per month less than the outgoing 2009 A4 2.0T quattro sport and the Acura still feels the same as it did (as noted above) the day I got it. The Audi, on the other hand, at 15,000 miles had already gone through a set of tires (and very expensive ones at that) and just seemed a bit more worn.

I have come to a conclusion, perhaps incorrectly so, that like the hyper expensive tires that came with the A4 and pooped out young (they turned to powder in an effort to make the car feel as if it were on rails), perhaps the German cars perform better for a shorter period of time. The Japanese -- perhaps -- don't perform as well from the get go, but they "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'" with minimal fuss and care.

The sales manager of the Acura store came from an Audi store and he remarked that the Germans make the best performing cars, period, but that they require the owner to take much more of an active role in maintaining that ultra high performance standard.

I have a Sheltie -- very low strung, very low maintenance (groomed about every 8 weeks and that's it) -- perhaps the Sheltie analogous to a Japanese ELLPS or LPS car. Now, then, there are some other breeds which seem to be high maintenance, but win a lot more "best in show" awards -- perhaps the German cars are like a high strung high maintenance dog breed.

Beats me -- the Acura certainly has been superior at one thing, though: not aging. :surprise:

kyfdx · May 2012

Why does markcincinnati get his car serviced in Columbus?

carnaught · May 2012

Mark: Thanks for the report. Happy to hear your Acura is not showing the interior wear and rattle problems I had with my previous generation TL and my two other Acuras.

nyccarguy · May 2012

15,000 miles is LITERALLY nothing for a Honda Product (nor should it be for ANY CAR at this price point). My 10 year old (146,200 mile) Prelude is extremely well screwed together. I'm still on the original shocks.

Thanks for the 15K report. I'm glad you are enjoying the car (the 9/10ths of it anyway;) & the $100 per month in your pocket.

You are bringing your own oil & still getting a $231 bill for an oil change? Your dealer seems to charge an awful lot of money.

sweendogy · May 2012

I've had a car for 30k and I dont think I've spent 231 bux total on oil changes and I use oil the dealer puts in.

markcincinnati · May 2012

I bought the car using carwoo.com -- the Columbus dealer gave me a 13% off sticker price.

I drive to Columbus twice weekly, and I am always in Columbus on either Saturday or Sunday. The time between cities is 100 minutes.

When the change oil reminder comes on, I call the dealer that I bought the car from and make a Saturday appt. I ask for the car I want as a loaner, an MDX or ZDX, etc and I get to test drive that car for the day whilst the car is being serviced.

The $230 oil change was due almost entirely to the fact that at the second oil change the SH-AWD fluid has to be changed -- and it is very pricey.

While 15,000 may be "nuthin" for a Honda (which is another reason the Acura is only 9/10ths), an Audi with 15,000 miles on it is middle aged. I have kept ONE German car more than 50,000 miles. The German cars drive great, perform great, look great and their features and functions are the standard by which the other guys measure themselves (or so I assume.)

Yet ONLY this car feels new at 15k miles -- the German cars seem to begin the aging process by 15K miles.

Now give me the choice of the Acura or the Audi and get rid of the price issues, well, at this point I would still go with the German despite my belief that it will age faster than the Japanese car. In fact I am starting to believe that an American car will also age more slowly due to the fact that we Americans think nothing of making two round trips to Columbus Ohio from Cincinnati per week, whereas a German would take a train for such a distance if at all possible (which it almost always is, in Germany and most of Europe.)

Another example, I do business in Chicago -- 275 miles from Cincinnati. I used to fly. Now the 5 hour drive to Chicago is about identical to the time it takes to make the trip on Delta (all things considered.)

And I can drive there in an Enterprise rental for a fraction of the cost of a plane ticket. These days I am probably putting 18-20K per year on my car because it is more prudent and pragmatic than the currently available alternatives.

In any case all of these things seem to support driving cars that think 15K miles ain't no thang.

billyperksii · May 2012

Mark- just say "rear differential fluid" not SH-AWD.

markcincinnati · May 2012

Will do -- I was just quoting the dealer's lingo.

jeffm5 · May 2012

Markcincinnati, I find your posts very well written and informative. I just bought a Volvo S60. It will be a 2013. I will not take delivery until July. My recent cars have been Avalons and Subarus. At 15,000 miles those cars still felt like new. In you opinion, will the S60 be showing signs of aging at 15,000 miles like the German cars? Thanks.

flightnurse · May 2012

Both of my 3 series are Manuals.

nyccarguy · May 2012

Flightnurse - That's awesome!

graphicguy · May 2012

mark.....you'll find that your TL won't require much in the way of maintenance at all. I still have a soft spot for the one I had. They really are very good cars. What people lament is that they aren't the "outstanding" cars that their Legend predecessor was. That doesn't change the fact that TL's can stand in their own spotlight.

Keep us posted on your ongoing experiences.

flightnurse....the diesels I've driven have varied from very nice (the Jag), to painful (an old Benz). Still, I'd have a hard time making a case for one in this country....unless, as is true in the U.K., diesel prices = gasoline prices.

It seems the U.S. is going with plug-in hybrids or VOLT type vehicles rather than diesels. I haven't heard any hydrogen updates in quite some time. I don't even know if any of the major manufacturers are still developing them.

flightnurse · May 2012

Mark I fully understand why you go back to the same dealer for service, this is what I have done with my 05 330 and the 328i. Building the relationship with a dealer makes the whole dealership experience worth while, like you when I take my cars in for service, I normally get the loaner I want.

Want to talk expensive for service, Nissan CVT transmission fluid change, my partner has a Nissan Rouge and at 45K miles service the CVT fliud needs to be changed, $450..... That is just for the fluid, and not the other service items. His 45K mile service was over $500... Like you, I am spoiled on BMW''s free service.

andys120 · May 2012

You're entitled to your opinion but Audis and BMWs I've owned have barely been "broken in" at 60K miles and I've never bought a brand-new one.

A well-cared for example can easily break six digits with no major problems.

flightnurse · May 2012

Graphic when you talk "old" diesel my father bought a 79 Peugeot wagon new and let me tell you, my grandmother could walk faster then that car could go. I had a 86 MB 300SDL (ok I lied I had 5 Vehicles that had autos) and was impressed with the power of that car, it was quieter then the Peugeot but not as quiet as the VW.

Now I can only speak for what I have seen, in Phoenix the price of Diesel is less then Premium that we German car owners but in our cars. Here on Island Island the price of Diesel is roughly 30 cent more then diesel. So getting a diesel wouldn't make sense.

nyccarguy · May 2012

The Shell station I fill up at mostly right off I95 in Stamford, CT had 93 octane & Diesel at the exact same price.

flightnurse · May 2012

NYC is that is the case then a diesel would be a better choice...

flightnurse · May 2012

Check this article out, this couple drove 1600 miles on a single tank..

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/05/84-mpg-couple-drive- s-vw-passat-diesel-record-chevrolet-cruze-/1#.T6vlO-tDN2B

markcincinnati · May 2012

I couldn't even begin to answer your question. Historically, Volvo's live very long lives -- and are expensive to maintain and repair like their German cousin's.

Today, I would EXPECT, any car (virtually any) to make it to 150,000 miles with normal maintenance and a few repairs.

Now then, the issue is what is the definition of normal maintenance?

My wife's last BMW (a 2008) could only have an oil change (that was free) when the car said it needed it -- once this was at 19,000 miles. Since the car was leased, we changed the oil and did the other things when the book called for it. To me BMW's service recommendations aren't "normal," since the miles between service intervals seems impossibly long.

Audis want oil changes every 10K miles -- and there is no computer inside that is determining when the maintenance should really be performed. I would think that would make a used, late model, Audi perhaps less prone to the wear that a BMW might have with its very very long service intervals.

I repeat, I have no clue how soon it will be -- in miles -- before you will notice your Volvo isn't "new" anymore.

I turned in my 2009 A4 2.0 with just under 55,000 miles on it -- it needed new tires (what would have been its third set) and the sport suspension seemed to be a bit "worn" feeling. Also it used a quart of oil every 2,000 miles, which seemed excessive, although the dealer told me there was a TSB on it that essentially cured that issue.

Of our 29 German cars, only my 60,000 miles young 2005 A6 3.2 still felt "young-ish" after 30,000 miles.

The difference in the German cars is they drive like no other -- so what you get are cars that "die young and leave a good looking [driving] corpse."

One more time, for the same money, I'd still take the German car even though I believe it will be breathtakingly expensive to keep young.

:surprise:

flightnurse · May 2012

Mark I like reading your post, however, I'm not getting this "young feeling" you talk about. My 05 330ci feels better today with 47K miles on it then it did when I picked it up in Germany in 05. When I slide into the 330 the feeling I is like visiting an old friend, everything feels right. I haven't gotten that with my 11 yet, since I have less then 4K miles on it. I do know that the German cars get better with age and miles. Now my 330 I have gone through 5 set of tires, and yes, I have taken it on a couple of track days, but it is the price of driving my BMW to 8/10 when I can.

The biggest difference between the Japaneses and German cars is personality the Japaneses cars lack personality. They are great appliances..

billyperksii · May 2012

The guy owned 29, I think its fair enough to value his opiion.

flightnurse · May 2012

NO one is arguing that, but for he most part, the German cars age better then others, that is all I'm saying. I tend to keep my cars longer then Mark, and drive them harder, my 05 BMW has no rattles at all, and having about 4K hard track miles on them I'm impressed with that.

andys120 · May 2012

The difference in the German cars is they drive like no other -- so what you get are cars that "die young and leave a good looking [driving] corpse."

Tell that to me 12 y/o 528iA with 140K, or my 11 y/o 330CIwith 80K, both cars get compliments all the time and drive like new.

jwilliams2 · May 2012

The difference in the German cars is they drive like no other -- so what you get are cars that "die young and leave a good looking [driving] corpse."

My experience is different....I've always gotten great service and longevity from German cars. Starting with a '55 VW that I bought some 50 years ago. I've also had an Audi, some BMWs, and several Mercedes.

I always keep my cars a long time, generally 10-15 years and always go over 100k. My '86 MB 300E went 245k, and I sold it maybe 10 years ago to someone who still drives it. My current MB is 15 years old, and has 136k on it. It is absolutely the best car I've owned, and looks as good and is as tight today as it was when new. None of my cars had major problems or cost more than what I consider reasonable to maintain.

Just something about driving these cars that makes them stand out. I can't imagine driving an "appliance" car, as I would probably be bored to death.

carnaught · May 2012

I turned in my 2009 A4 2.0 with just under 55,000 miles on it --................... Also it used a quart of oil every 2,000 miles, which seemed excessive, although the dealer told me there was a TSB on it that essentially cured that issue.

Nupe....my 2011 A4 goes through a quart of oil 1500-2000 mi. apart, changed at Audi's expense (one of the times I'm happy it's leased).

sweendogy · May 2012

Japanese cars lake personality- Someone in an civic blow you away at some stop light at some point?

Another small dink at the Japanese - I'm sure your BMW with 47k miles is great and rock solid-But please spare us with the German cars age better - ask a mechanic what ages better.

I am Glad you drive a manual - even thou your comments at times make zero sense ( see November comments on leader ads , and comments saying Infiniti g37 will be new for 2013) save the manuals.

flightnurse · May 2012

I have read many peoples post regarding the oil usage of the 2.0 turbo 4, I also read there is a TSB on it also.

dino001 · May 2012

Well, blowing somebody at lights is not my concern, but if wanted to my previous Subarus would do just fine. I also would rather take a car without personality than with a bad one.

The aging argument on German cars depends on what we are talking about. The chassis, main mechanicals, as long as maintained and not abused are probably fine for long. However, I would not be so sure about electrical system, motors, switches, etc. I think at some point Germans could not resist replacing $20/50000 hrs with one for $5/8000 hrs (just example, not real numbers) on false calculation of short-term ownership by first owner and they are slowly working back that lapse of judgement.

There is also their high maintenance-high complexity culture that has been present for decades (their war machines were like that, too, e.g. Panther tank required fully equipped shop to replace transmission and it had to be taken apart - allied/Russian tanks could have field tranny replacements; even its staggered wheel pattern made it more difficult to field replace the tracks on the field).

Every design has it objectives and constraints. At some point, getting closer to objectives (more performance in a car, better performing armored battle vehicle) comes at price of maintenance, complexity, which in turn can adversely affect the primary objectives in long term. In simple words, while working the machine has no equal, but to make it work can be cost prohibitive and even small setback has a potential becoming a major problem.

dino001 · May 2012

As I mentioned, in engineering there is a point of diminishing returns, where gains in primary objectives are being offset by increasing costs, both direct and indirect and unintended effects.

I would say the main difference between Japanese and German cars is Germans are willing to test that limit going beyond it and are able then sell the product to willing people, like me. Japanese are asking different question, basically at what point it is good enough and not affecting other paralled objectives. That may be defined as lacking soul, but I don't think that is fair. It is matter of different objectives.

nyccarguy · May 2012

Mileage update: Last Fill up = 19.8 mpg
Dino - you are right, there are quite a few evenings that I sit in heavy traffic

Saw a BP station here in The Bronx where Super was 4.25/gal & Diesel was $4.49/gal

graphicguy · May 2012

Flight....in Europe, I can see the appeal of diesel cars. Here, where the vast majority of the time, diesel fuel is normally sold at a significant premium over gasoline, I can't see it catching on with passenger cars.

That said, I keep meticulous records on my 3. I have every fill-up recorded. I'm averaging about 22 MPG, overall. Lowest I got was 19 MPG. Highest was 29 MPG. Lowest price for gas I paid over the last year was $3.19/gal, highest was $4.01/gal. That's almost a 30% swing....with no supply disruption, with worldwide demand either flat, or declining. Tell me that traders aren't manipulating prices.

Japan vs German.....well, I think my former TL was built as well as anything I ever owned from Germany (essentially, 3 BMWs). That said, the CTS coupe I test drove was as solid as anything I've ever driven.

I had heard that the Audis were oil hogs, from more than one person. But, sounds like they may have a "fix" in the works for that.

My 2nd choice over my 335i coupe was either an S4 or an A5. At least locally, none of the ones they had in stock appealed to me. The two local dealers had all of 2 S4s in stock, and acted like they were made of platinum, or convertible A5s (again, I wanted a coupe).

So, neither got into my check book.

flightnurse · May 2012

Sweeny I'm not the one looking for a BMW 335iX w/ Sport package and Manual that would be you, if the mighty G is all that and more why would you give up a wonderful car with only 30K miles on it?

BTW, I do not race on the street, I leave that to the track. My opinion is that Japaneses 4 dr cars have no personality when driven hard. This includes the might Infiniti G and M, Lexus IS, and the new GS. For me they feel like an appliance. I'm not saying I am correct, but this is my opinion.

flightnurse · May 2012

Graphic for about 4 yrs I kept track of my mileage and how many gallons I used, but that stopped. I do however, have all my receipts for everything ever done to the car, tires, brakes, Suspension upgrades, Exhaust, black box re-flash, etc... I even have the original German plate's from when I pick it up.

The Audi A5, excellent car, if I was going to get a Audi it would be A5 or the A7.

sweendogy · May 2012

Now your talking- thanks just wanted a little clarity on your statement- we now understand why they have no personality - fair comment.

For me I have a couple of reasons why I would love a 335 x drive or an Audi s4. 1) they would have a warrantee- my car is no longer under the Infiniti umbrella. Sure it's only been driven by me, is in great shape but those tiny little gremlins in the dash could strike any day.
2) stick shift, save the manuals - I for one think the modern manuals are better then automatics,why? Well they make you become more engaged with the car and more aware of the other drivers- you are constantly monitoring speed- making sure you are in the right gear to pass- or to slow. I think it's a better way to drive period. I know 95% drive autos- but to me they are not driving - they are being driven. You can talk about dct, automanual, cvts- sorry they don't do it for me.

Passat Tdi article that flight mentioned about a couple that got 80mpg is a good read- best part about it? It was done with a manual transmission

markcincinnati · May 2012

There are plenty of resources -- both subjective and objective -- that discuss the German cars personalities or that decry the Japanese for making appliances.

All the "did too" "did not" that we may throw out here can also be additional data points -- there are so many of us we're not just relying on anecdotes, that is.

Virtually all cars have improved in reliability and durability -- but for whatever reason the Japanese cars (regardless of where they really come from) certainly seem to win the durability sweepstakes while the German cars typically win the fun to drive contest but pretty regularly are written about as being less durable.

My rattle free TL or my wife's rattle prone BMW certainly can't be assumed to represent all Acuras or BMWs and certainly shouldn't be assumed to represent ANYTHING other than themselves.

The surveys that are availble, however, regularly and frequently conclude that a Japanese car family (fill in the blank) will often far outlive a "similar" German car family (also fill in the blank) insofar as durability is concerned. And of course there is the matter of the expense of keeping any car beyond a certain point.

One of the folks I work with has a 13 year old Lexus and a 10 year old BMW -- both with well over 100K miles on the odometer. Both cars are paid for -- yet the BMW is often being driven in so that it could get the latest $1,100 repair or replacement part -- NEVER has the Lexus required such an outlay, according to my buddy.

On the other hand, another co-worker's BMW required new rotors and pads at 50,100 miles and his service cost almost the day out of warranty was over $1,800.

Now I wouldn't say the BMW was non durable due to the service costs the day the warranty died -- it just seems odd that would happen so young. The Japanese cars, have earned a reputation for long long lives -- we, here, are not the cause of such reputations, but perhaps there is something to it.

The European cars -- Germans in particular -- do not enjoy such reputations, no matter what we argue here. :surprise:

billyperksii · May 2012

Proof is in the Pudding- look around next time on the Highway and take a survey. Last time I did, Japan was winning by a mile.

ivan_99 · May 2012

Around here, central TX - suburbs, I notice a huge amount of trucks and large SUV's; with American vehicles representing the majority.

I always take notice of what types of vehicles are around me and usually I'm surrounded by behemoths.

sweendogy · May 2012

Billy looks like that's changing-

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-05-02/finance/31529988_1_crossovers-car-sal- es-car-segment

nyccarguy · May 2012

Guys are BMWCCA members, but if you are not & like BMWs, it's a great way to save some money. BMWFS made 2 ($500) of my 1st 2 $572 lease payments. Because I'm a BMWCCA member, I filled out a form & got an additional $500 rebate from BMW of North America. When we leased my wife's X3 back in 2007, I also got a $500 rebate. Well worth the $48/ year the membership costs. You also get a fantastic magazine, ROUNDEL every month.

nyccarguy · May 2012

My wife got a flat on Thursday in her Pilot. I dropped the Pilot off at the tire shop Thursday night, which means she gets my 328xi for the day on Friday, & I've got to drive the Prelude to work (cue the violins, we should all have such problems).

Jumping back into the BMW this AM, I immediately noticed how much it weighs compared to my (3042 lb) Prelude.

Dynamically, like I've said my 3 blows my former TSX out of the water. My TSX's stereo gets major points as compared to the base stereo in my 328xi.

flightnurse · May 2012

NYC I belong to RoadRunner chapter, and have many friends in the San Diego Chapter. I also belong to BMWMOA (motorcycle club.) The BMWCCA is a great club to join, lots of info and great discounts.

fedlawman · May 2012

sweendogy · May 2012

Interesting read-

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/americans-driving-stick-shift-article-1.1072784- -

In other news sad to see Shelby died today

nyccarguy · May 2012

Good read sween. Thanks for posting the link. Shelby's death is indeed sad news, for auto enthusiasts everywhere.

On another note: Let's Go Rangers!

billyperksii · May 2012

Who is this post geared at?

Kirstie_H · May 2012

Hm... first post, post makes no sense, has an insult directed at an unidentified member... yeah, I don't think we need that one in here.

flightnurse · May 2012

When I read the post I figured it was a typical post to stir up the pot, it wasn't worth it.

sweendogy · May 2012

I like when people stir the pot- why do you think this is edmunds most popular forum ?

graphicguy · May 2012

So, I know this has turned into something of a BMW love fest. But, I have to admit that the paint on mine is outstanding. I detailed it Saturday (once/Spring, once/Fall). Not one chip....even after a year of driving it. Still looks great, too (black metallic). Impressive!

andys120 · May 2012

Still looks great, too (black metallic). Impressive!

Take care of it and that paint will look great for years to come. My 2001 330Ci is black (sapphire) metallic and still gets compliments after 11 years and 80,000 miles.

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