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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    My understanding is only Euro deliveries don't count toward allotments. Regular orders do. When I was first ordering my wagon, the salesman mentioned something about allotment "trade" with another dealer. It later became moot, once we went with Euro delivery.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    No, it wasn't. In practicality, if there were some true life circumstances, they'd probably return it, but at their goodwill.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dino interesting, you say that you saved about a grand off MSRP, did you do the Euro Delivery? I do not remember. When I did the Euro Delivery on my 05 I saved roughly $2300. The savings really did pay for our trip, minus airfare (I used FF miles for that.) Of course when you look at 5 and 7 series the discount is greater, when we were looking at a 7 series the discount was $7700 for a euro delivery.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    I see I confused you, people. It was $1000 off the "Euro delivery" MSRP, not US delivery MSRP.

    BMW maintains separate pricing sheets for each type of delivery. They both have same invoice-MSRP structure. delivery Euro prices are negotiable same way as US delivery prices.

    Here is the deal, more less:
    Base MSRP for 328i wagon is $38,395, Euro MSRP = 0.93*38,395=$35,700
    Options: $8550 (same for each type of delivery)
    Totals: US del: 46945, Euro del: 44250. My price: 43250, incuding dealer's fee. Of course add taxes.
    So it is about $4000 less than US MSRP, but I have to pay the trip to Munich.

    When I say "discount", in context of Euro delivery, it has the same meaning as "discount" in context in US delivery, but from lowered base. It is because the base is lowered not by the dealer's good heart, but by BMW of US.

    This is main difference between BMW and Mercedes, Audi, or Volvo European deliveries. BMW has the prices negotiable, the other ones have the prices fixed, no negotiations.

    Is that more clear now? ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    A BMW wagon with a manual. That is one of my dream cars. Beautiful car that must be a blast to drive. Plus it's very functional.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Ben- I agree - to bad others don't -

    Sweet rig - love the color- roof and wheels- along with it being a manual wagon- great rig
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dino I know all too well how the Euro Del works, however, you numbers didn't work out, now that you explained it, no problem. BTW, gorgeous car!!! Did you get the 2 for 1 on airfare?
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    No, I went alone. Plus, those 2-in-1 aren't really great deals, anyway.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    Great car -wagon- great choice- sport pack-great choice-manual - are you kidding me - plus blue (anything non gray) - car is redik - manual cats should line up-anyone buying In this class- if available should be bought. All the people who say they are enthusiast - this is how its done.

    Save the manuals
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Not that I really need validation ;) , but it is nice to hear others like it, too. I appreciate it.

    It's just too bad that "general public" doesn't buy those here - BMW is pretty last one standing, especially throughout 3-series line (almost, anyway). Audi ditched their A4 manual on wagon a few years ago, Benz was first to bow out completely.

    There were noises of wagon (touring) being replaced by 3-series GT (like in 5-series) but it seems not just yet. It seems GT may come as an additional line. I woulnd't mind that at all, especially if it were sold as a complete line, i.e. both engines, both trannies - one can dream, right? Cause the only thing I miss from BMW is the 335i touring - they sell those in Europe (or at leat did for E91, can's say for F31). That thing must be insane :cry:

    If I had to buy again, I could buy either one, I even like those liftbacks (GT-style) a little bit more than wagons; they are quite popular in Europe for D-segment (as they call all cars in size of 3-series). The body has more sedanish look, but comes with a full rear hatch, so larger cargo can be placed just like in a regular wagon or hatchback. Good combination. Previous generation Mazda6 was like that - of course didn't sell very well here so they ditched it.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I have to agree, when they presented us with the paperwork and "great" deal on airfare, i saw that the fare bucket for the ticket was not one to be able to upgrade from, I knew it wasn't a good deal.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    It's a shame that your car is last in class- it seems the BMW botheren- while talking a great game, of being real drivers- has gone away from manuals- even thou they have the option ( other auto makers in he class don't) of man transmission - the sweet lease option of a 328 has gotten alot of so called enthuiaists into this car and class- gbozen and others who feel the auto is a better choice feast your eyes on a great BMW wagon - but congrats on the auto "winning."- your grandmas would be proud
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    Shocked - figured the 2 for one flight comment was to once again prove he got a better deal- following the leader ad comment, or the comment about the " experiential deal" deal he got, its always about the better deal you got vs others. Nice job flight way to go
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    Man, let that go, will you? Can we just get along?

    The thing with the "companion" fare was it requires you buy a booking code of full fare (Y or similar) for first ticket - but many tickets are available at deep (Q, T, Z or similar) that are about 50% of full fare, often even less.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I've always found that if you ignore a yappy dog they will quiet down eventually if you kinow what I mean.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Sorry was a little sideways when I posted that - was looking at my Facebook allocation - was wrong to attack- sorry
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    edited May 2012
    Sweeny no one stated that autos are better, we are saying that, the auto have gotten just as good as a stick. Performance speaking stick were much better in the 0-60 and mpg game (ten years ago), however, the autos of today are just as good. So a 1 MPH better and 0.01 seconds faster 0-60 and the 1/4 miles, doesn't really matter with the clogged highways/expressways these days.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dino, as you know the 2-1 is only good on the Euro Delivery not a inventory sale.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    My preference of stick shift has nothing to do with performance, track times, 0-60. I'm not that good of a driver to actually take advantage of the edge, even if it existed. I don't prefer it because of the fuel economy, as modern autos are either better or almost as good (depending on who makes them). My preference for stick shift is only about one thing - it is feel of a connection between the throttle pedal and wheels, feedback that can be provided only by a mechanincal grip (direct friction) between clutch plates. No matter what, fluid driven by fins (in a classic hydrokinetic transmission, aka torque converter) will give you different feel. I've never driven DSG/SMG/DCT, but I can only imagine those transmissions as being the only equivalent device to facilitate similar feel you get from manual transmission. I could let go the pedal, it's the connection I'd miss if switched to normal slushbox.

    To be completely fair, the slushbox on the 328i loaner, I had for couple of weeks came, close to what I'd consider acceptable replacement. It was really first premium segment car I had opportunity to drive for more extended time and I almost liked the transmission. I opted for the manual simply because it was possibly last chance I still had an option(same with the six-in-line engine, BTW).

    I'm resigned to strong possibility of getting a slushbox for my next car - hopefully long time from now. It's not going to be "terrible", or anything like that - just a little sad, that's all. End of an era. But since there was a stay of the execution, I used it.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Thanks for the apology - let's keep it civil and non-personal from here on out, please.

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  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Well said!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Dino well said, I know what you saying, I was the guy who always had a stick, I don't see myself ever selling my 05 (of course I didn't never) so I have my fun car as well as track car. But I do see a DSG/DCT type car in the future.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    As I watch the rangers and devils pick each other apart- hockey is alive and well up east- I would like to once again mix things up- we all know the tsx is going to die or is it the TL ? as Acura introduces a civic based sedan - 2 4cy options (real drivers will select the 2.4, manual- drive one and ask yourself) but in presnet size looks like a potential player- when will we retire the TL or Tsx in this chat- its about time- im asking for one gine, and if i remember correclty the hosts were asking these same members to rate or talk about the new Acura isx im talking to the hosts, as this is the most popular forum at edmunds (you are so very welcome). While we are at it - the caddy cts. A car I like has to go as well with the new caddy ats. No car co should have 2 in the entry level -it's entry For a reason.

    Save the manuals
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Sweendogy

    Excellent hockey game. I'm not happy with the outcome. As far as the ilx is concerned, it's nothing more than a glorified civic which in its current iteration hasn't exactly gotten glowing reviews. The 2.4 that will be available with a manual transmission (and electric power steering - YUCK) is a luxo version of the Civic Si.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    What gives you the idea that Honda would even consider retiring the TL?
    Can you substantiate any evidence or facts to even bring this absurd thought to the board?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Bill read the subject header and you will what is going on, and you fell right for it.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    i expected such a comment from you flight -- but billy come on man -
    i might be brash at times but I dont make things up - enjoy the day..

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/12/acura-rl-replacement-coming-in-april-tl-or-ts- x-to-be-killed/
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    quite possible they wil consolidate. In theory, a lot of overlap with the 3 models (heck, 4 if the Rl is still around!). so logically you cold replace the Ilx, TSX and TL with 2 models. Given that the I is just out, I assume the TSX would be the causualty?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    That's all speculations- I dont see them discontiuing the TL, the TSX, probably-with the addition of the ILX, the TSX is a redundant car now.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    one could say with the New RL comming soon - the TL is a redundant car. But again i dont know-- also have to look at whats selling and if recent history of the TL would suggest it could be on the chopping block, given its sales slide since the 07/08 redu
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    There is no way TL will go. TSX is definitely the one, if something goes. I think the US market is just too small and too tough to support car like that. It probably costs them too much vs. what they can charge in volumes those things are selling. I actually like it, but I know when I like something, it won't sell. ILX being based on economy car spreads the costs much better.

    The problem I cannot see how in the world they could make anything close to TSX experience with ILX. The thing is based on Civic platform :sick: whereas TSX was based on Euro/JDM Accord, which were positioned similarly to US ELLPS (and sold at appropriate prices). So you know the pedigree of TSX is much more noble than coming ILX. This is just another example of Acura and Honda losing their way. They are undoubtedly going through some kind of crisis.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,179
    They had good success with the Integra and RSX.. which were both Civic based.. Maybe they can do it again..

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  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    i 2 had the Integra GS-R - best civic ever made
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Speculating on whether the TSX or TL (or both) will go away is futile.

    I believe Acura will likely maintain a 3-car lineup. RLX at the top, ILX at the bottom, and something in between. Lets just call it the TLX for now...
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    Not the point- is it a 200 hp sudo lux accord - or is it a 36k entry 6 with sport (er) option
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    How about offering a FWD turbo 4 TLX for $35,000 and an AWD V6 TLX for $42,000? Fully loaded in the Japanese tradition, of course.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Do you guys read the READERS RIDES BLOG? If not, here's my write up on my 2001 Honda Prelude

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Nice write up!

    I've always liked the Prelude and yours looks just amazing. You've really taken good care of it.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited May 2012
    I don't see Acura stopping the slide out of the premium class if the emphasis (based on dealer inventory) continues on obviously tarted up Hondas (no matter how nice) with FWD and 5 or 6 speed autos.

    My opinion is that Acura needs to offer the entire lineup with SH-AWD and nothing less than a 6spd auto, moving toward 8spd autos (and if possible keeping stick shifts if for no other reason than marketing.)

    The direction Acura seems to be moving is to build nice cars -- that neither offend (once the beak styling is banished to at least the '12 TL level if not moreso) nor excite (visually at least.) The current and apparent upcoming future direction is to slowly continue to slide out of the Premium class. One $100,000+ NSX doesn't change anything.

    Driving my 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance is very much like driving the previous generation Audi A6 (known as the C6), perhaps a 2009 or 2010 model.

    That may be damning with faint praise or it may be simply mild, not wild praise that Acura in 2012 can build a decent 2009 Audi A6 clone (that isn't as good looking.)

    In two years I move to a new car -- at this point Acura will get a look-see, but I'm thinking so will Infiniti and Audi and Cadillac. The Acura will have to step up its game.

    Today, Acura reminds me, in the pecking order of the world, as the Japanese VW. :confuse:
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    ...that neither offend (once the beak styling is banished to at least the '12 TL level if not moreso)

    The ol' beak works for some of us. Reminds me of a time, many years ago before marriage, in Venice where I saw a stunning Italian lady. She had a beak...but somehow, it worked for me ;)
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    'Acura will get a look-see, but I'm thinking so will Infiniti and Audi and Cadillac'
    Why does BMW not make the cut?
    - Ray
    Just curious....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    I agree. In my opinion Acura's issues are reflection of its parent Honda problems. I'm not sure if it is simple funding, excessive aversion to risk, or what it is, but their recent offerings are really so unispiring that it seems like they're sliding into second tier (Honda) or even oblivion (Acura).

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Interesting that you bring up the Integra, it was based somewhat on the Civic, but the ILX is a civic in a pretty dress. So we shall see how it sells, if Honda can't sell the new Civic, then Acura will have a harder time selling the ILX.. The buyer they are shooting for is a very savoy buyer, doubt they will spend 31K for a ILX when they can buy a 2 yr old BMW for the same price... Honda has some problem, the Insight is not selling, the current Accord hasn't sold in the #'s that honda was looking for, the current Civic was cheapened and it shows. Lets hope that Honda gets it right soon, or they might be in a world of hurt.

    Acrua should have made the ILX into something that the Integra was, a sporty entry level upsacle car... Not a luxury car, but an upscale car.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Hey Fed, I have stated before that Acrua needs to drop the turbo 4 in the TSX, make it a low pressure turbo, 225hp with 240lbs of torque. this would give the TSX the need off the line power it has been lacking. Drop the V6, and if Acrua thinks a AWD version is needed, just increase the boost of the turbo to counter act the added weight. Have a Dual Clutch Auto with, have the 0-60 times in the high 5's... Keep the price right about 35K, Acrua would sell every since one of them...
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well, I would include, believe it or not, BMW and Volvo whilst I was shopping. I might even test drive a Mercedes just for the heck of it too.

    My wife's 3 Bimmers were pretty much joys to drive. The exclusion of any ELLPS or LPS car from future consideration was an oversight. Nothing more.

    :blush:
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Hey Mark, is appears BMW has brought back their Value Package, which gives you leather interior, iPad connection and BMW App for free on the E90 body style cars (Wagon and Coupe) this is about a $2500 saving. Not too sure what you are looking at, however, this is a nice savings.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited May 2012
    I agree turbo 4 seems the way to go but it looks like Acura Killed the turbo in the rdx and now has a standard 6. It has Nothing to do with the transmission, duel clutch might be nice but as you and another have mentioned its not the reason they are going the way of the Dodo bird.

    Sports update rangers lose, yanks up 3-0.

    The Acura brand as stated before is the Asian Buick of this segment. No coupe, no convert, one standout with the mdx. NSx will be cool to see at the dealerships- but going to take more then a commercial with Jerry and Leno to get people to buy.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Acrua (Honda) could not do anything wrong, which was nice, the original NSX was years ahead of the competition, it is not uncommon to find a early NSX with 150K miles on it that is squeak free and runs like it is new. The early MDX the same thing, built very well, styling was typical Japanese you either loved it or hate it. Acrua (Honda) of today has made some big mistakes, and it shows. Their sales have dropped, cars that were the benchmark are not today. Placing a V6 in the TSX was the biggest mistake for them. The price places the V6 TSX in BMW territory. Drop the V6, bring a nice turbo 4 in, 235hp and 255lbs of torque (at 1700) as the top engine, and the base engine be the engine they have today the 2.4l.

    Place a nice turbo 4 in the TL as the base engine, add a 7 or 8 spd Dual Clutch transmission, keep the base price under 35K, have leather standard, along with Nav. FOr the Type S, V6, dual clutch 7 or 8 spd, AWD, fully loaded price 44K. ACrua needs to go back to the pricing game and continue to give people more for their money.

    Drop the ILX, it is a POS, too expensive for what you are getting...
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    edited May 2012
    It is spelled ACURA, not Acrua. I write it only because the misspelling error seems to be repeated many times here (I mean on the forum, not just your post), for whatever reason. Wouldn't bother to correct anyone if it was sporadic, but reading back the pattern of posts indicates incorrect knowledge, not just typos.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Dino - just did a search of the last 20 acrua "typos", flight was responsible for 15- you might be on to something.
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