Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

nyccarguy · June 2012

BRAVO! Very well said my friend!

m6user · June 2012

"I also use my eye on what's on the road (as flightnurse does)."

I think all of us that have a great deal of interest in automobiles do this. I have been known to "stalk" cars on expressways to get a good look at them from different angles. However, I've noticed over the years that unless I'm specifically looking for something, it could pass me by and and I wouldn't even notice it. That's why I won't offer an opinion on how well something is selling just because I haven't seen a bunch on the road, especially when it may not be a brand, style or model that I am particularly interested in.

To your other point, you are talking about a % sales increase over prior year and what you say is true. However, the fact that a vehicle recently sold more than just about any other competitor vehicle in it's class doesn't have anything to do with "last year". But I also agree with flightnurse in that the RDX is a brand new redesign which has been significantly changed and has a lot of advertising tied to it. Sales will die down and then one can see how well it does going forward. But I stand by my earlier statement that "dealers are selling the H out of them" but for how long is the question.

nyccarguy · June 2012

funny you say that about stalking cars. I'm always giving cool cars the thumbs up out of my sunroof when I'm driving the Prelude. Sometimes to other BMW drivers when I'm in my 328.

You are right that if they are outselling every key competitor in its class that it has nothing to do with last year's sales numbers. I must have gotten a post or 2 confused. I agree that sales will die down with regards to the new RDX.

ctl · June 2012

Considering the RDX competitors in the same category, most (X3/Q3/Q5/JX...) have pretty close sales numbers (plus a RX that sells 3 times more and being 3-4 years older), most being 5K+ more expensive...

I will say either this statement is highly exaggerated, or the sales expectation was pretty low to begin with... We might say for the new generation, sales has improved and is much better than before.

"dealers are selling the H out of them"

m6user · June 2012

Don't quite follow what you're getting at. The RDX, according to sales figures, have sold about 3 times more in May this year versus what the 2012 sold last year. Sales numbers are sales numbers and aren't exaggerated unless you have some inside information that the sales numbers are wrong. Remember last year you were dealing with a fairly unpopular(by the general public) RDX and sales could also have been curtailed by the sunami for a short time as the 2012 model, I believe, were all built in Japan.

When you go from almost dead last in a category to almost 1st whatever term you care to use for the increase is correct. Let's not play sematics.

sweendogy · June 2012

I think the term well said is over done on this board (look at last time) but- nope this was well said- look at the sale numbers - its all available for you on the www - same with resid value people- for those who "have been in dealerships" and talked to sales people as you test drive the new turbo d- it's all in sales numbers. Not What some Dealer is sayig about a brand he is selling- Amazing we have gotten to this- this was pointed out when people were talking about how great the new TL was- well it was almost 30% less great then the outgoing model- its all about sales.
Btw the Rdx is a little off topic

graphicguy · June 2012

fed, flight, nyc....you all replied more concisely than I was able to do. Thanks!

Finally got to drive a 2013 S4 that a friend is thinking of buying. Wasn't a long drive, but WOW!

fedlawman · June 2012

Oh, the S4 is a very nice car. I love what Audi is doing right now - best cars in the segment IMO.

Here's my biased opinion:

Audi > BMW = M-B > Acura = Infiniti > Lexus = Volvo > Cadillac

ivan_99 · June 2012

Audi > BMW = M-B > Volvo = Lexus > Cadillac = Infiniti > Acura

graphicguy · June 2012

fedlawman....I like your equation. The S4 seems more "cushy" than my 335i. But, it felt quite capable, too. My friend is looking for something to replace about a 6 year old Volvo. He wondered what I thought given I kind of live my automotive fate in this particular segment. Of course, I told him to jump on it.

He mentioned that he may not need that much power. I didn't even think that would ever be a thought that crossed my mind or be even remotely possible.

billyperksii · June 2012

How is the interior sapce on the S4?
I am actaully going over to the Audi Dealer in Greenwich today to take a look at the A6 Premium Plus with Sport and Cold package. I will probably give the S4 a look.

Sween- please note, I said look not buy because I know you are going to be all over me about getting rid of my beloved TL.

kdshapiro · June 2012

Old posts and just catching up.

The G is not only the value leader, but it is CRs top pick ELLPS.

I think Infiniti is finally get serious.

kdshapiro · June 2012

I'm seriously thinking about the M as my next car. Give the G to the wife.

kdshapiro · June 2012

Fed catching up, absolutely awesome.

kdshapiro · June 2012

If the g is bloated, then so is the TL, CTS, etc. With the exception of the 3 it seems all of the Ellps are "bloated".

kyfdx · June 2012

Sort of agree..

But, I put the TL and the CTS up one size class from the G, 3 and A4...

I got to drive my wife's G37XS for the last three days, while she was out of town... I remain unimpressed (except for when I'm flooring it.... WOW)..

markcincinnati · June 2012

Boy did you hit the nail on the head. Acura used to offer only SH-AWD (on the AWD cars) -- and as far as I know Acura's torque vectoring rear diff was on the market before my German fave, Audi, and their sport differential (which provides the same kind of advantage in handling as does SH-AWD, albeit in a RWD biased AWD auto.)

Acura used to lead, or at least it appeared that they used to attempt to lead.

What have they done, what have they done? Well, look on the lots of one of their dealers -- it is really difficult to find an SH-AWD vehicle (other than the MDX). They seem to not get that FWD doesn't cut it in the Premium class. They could've simply looked at Audi (in the US). I would assume most US customers don't even know that many of Audi's cars are sold as FWD models (elsewhere). In the US, however, virtually all Audis are AWD and they have made their name as pioneers of AWD. Now 40% of BMW sedans sold (in the US) are X-drive models; and even the mighty 7 series can be had with four driven wheels. Much the same can be said about Mercedes -- RWD heritage, AWD sales aplenty here in the US.

Acura is cross shopped with Toyota? Of course, because the base products Acura offers are contented more like Toyota or Honda rather than Audi or BMW and with the Germans widespread use of 7 and 8 speed transmissions and Honda, er Acura continuing to bring out NEW cars (e.g., the ILX) with a 5 speed shifter is a dead giveaway.

The ILX should have been SH-AWD (only!) and come with -- at bare minimum -- the very fine 6-speed as is found in the TL.

The line should adopt the "X" suffix and it should mean "we're all, AWD" models. The new RDX comes out and it goes with the cheaper FWD biased AWD and eschews SH-AWD (and the thing can be had as an FWD -- who's dumb idea was that?)

The new ILX comes out, FWD only, wimpy engine and when auto equipped has the long since forgotten (by the Germans and other Premium Japanese brands) 5-speed (what were they thinking?)

My 2012 TL Advance w/SH-AWD should be the only way this car should be sold (in SH-AWD form, that is), and there should be a bunch more options to choose from and an "S" version to keep things interesting.

I think, too, the new RLX will be stillborn -- who will pay for an RLX when they can have an Audi A6 3.0T Prestige for about the same price?

Acura is the new Genesis, they just don't know it yet. I never would have imagined that Genesis cars and Equus autos could be sold at a Hyundai dealership, but here in Cincinnati the inventory of Genesis and Equus cars seems quite deep and I see them on the road virtually every day -- even the Equus.

So, Acura should fold up its separate dealership network and move back in with mom and dad -- sell Acuras as higher priced Hondas, just like Hyundai sells Genesis cars as a separate line, but from the same dealership.

And the reason that Lexus can "get away" with using some Toyotas as donor cars, is that the finished product -- from Lexus -- shares little with Toyota in its looks and interior.

My TL has waaaaaaay too much Honda in it, is my point.

Audis USED to have a whole bunch of VW in them -- over time Audi became a little less VW as every model year passed. Now, there certainly is "something" that reminds me of Audi in a new CC -- but there is virtually nothing in an Audi that reminds me of VW. Acuras are very nice, very smooth, apparently very high resale value cars and very much like "Hondas who know somebody."

The Premium class will miss Acura when it finally fades away.

I say all of the above not as a disatisfied Acura owner -- quite the contrary, the 2012 TL is very nice -- I'd give it an A-. It may be, however, that Acura has given up. It no longer wants to be the Japanese Audi. It never did want to be the Japanese BMW. I don't know what it wants to be anymore -- but it had better figure it out soon.

For the record, I've never liked Lexus -- until this year, with their new more sporting, less sofa-like, cars (esp the GS). I am liking, more and more all the time, Infiniti, helped by the fact that my wife now has 30K miles on her 2011 FX35, and for a CUV, this thing is as impressive at 30,000 as it was at 1 (mile); and the M's are worth comparing to A6 and 5 series if you ask me.

The only company that seems to be sailing the seas rudderless is Acura.

More's the pity. :surprise:

kdshapiro · June 2012

Love the g. The size is perfect. And yes, it is fast and rides like it is on rails. I'm unimpressed with the a4 and TL.

Plus there are rumors of a 530 hp ipl. The next few years will be interesting.

sweendogy · June 2012

Nice - and I remain impressed with my old g35x with 31k miles drives nice for a 5 year old with bald tires- i dont let my wife drive it, my maintence costs over the 5 years were about the same as a civic+ the 10 plus I paid less then a 335xi - performance + power at a cheaper price I think this car has been a home run.

I like the Audi a4/s4 look- would love an s4, stick, quatro - they are a little front heavy and not cheap but it's a nice rig. The TL in current form and long name Should go away. Someone mentioned folding Acura into honda - makes since but I don't see it happening - and they just spent 1.5m on a Super Bowl commercial.

flightnurse · June 2012

The G37 makes more HP then a BMW 335, but the BMW is quicker 0-60 and in the quarter miles. It appears that BMW laps Willow Springs "Street" track as well as "race" track quicker then a G37. So I guess this does make it a better deal...

flightnurse · June 2012

I'm not too sure about the CTS being one size up on the 3 series, that CTS is very tight in the back seat as well as drivers seat....I rented one for a week and was no impressed with it at all..

kdshapiro · June 2012

I agree, and if you followed my posts over time you know my first love is BMW. However the g37 is a sweet package. According to goodcarbadcar.net, it's the second best japanese luxury seller after the rx.

Also rented a CTS and agree with your comments.

sweendogy · June 2012

BMW is the best for sure, but throwing dollars in the debate it's a lot closer.

dino001 · June 2012

I just checked Acura's website. So ILX w/6-speed manual (FWD) is 30 grand. This is demented - souped up Civic at price of fully loaded Accord (including Nav). Makes no sense whatsoever to me. TSX is basically superior car in every dimension, but I suspect it costs them too much. Too low sales to support bringing all-different chassis vs. having something run on volume seller. The only one that could make some sense is hybrid - at 34 grand it is positioned to compete with Lexus CT (which goes higher when you load it up). Definietely not ELLPS, but may find its niche.
Who is running their marketing? I want a name.

wireless · June 2012

Marketing? How about their design department? Can't figure out who would actually purchase that ugly thing.

ivan_99 · June 2012

No joke...back in the day...my "best man" and I were having a conversation about cars. He's not a car guy at-all. Last time we talked he was "sharing" a car in the city he was living (pay per use type thing).

Anyway...he mentioned how great the Pontiac Aztek was. How it was one of the vehicles he could own; it had and did everything.

They'll probably still sell a few ILXs :shades:

flightnurse · June 2012

ILX is suppose to bring the kids who grew with the luxury cars their parents owned. This is according to Car and Driver, however, if these kids are use to BMW, Audi and MB, why would they get a Japaneses car and not stick with a brand they are use to. As I stated before, why would anyone pay 33K for a ILX when they can get a CPO BMW 328i for the same price.. I think this is going to be a very hard sell for Acura...

flightnurse · June 2012

So is the new ILX considered an ELLP ? Has the TXS now moved up from the entry level model? Can a car brand have two ELLP cars?

sweendogy · June 2012

"can a car brand have 2 ."

According to edmunds - yes look to the right - they potentially can have 3 with this new rig.

graphicguy · June 2012

Sorry Billy...been traveling for work....sorry it took awhile to respond. Never looked too close to,the back seat of the S4. Big trunk. The whole x4 series is bigger than what I was used to. I was astounded at its smoothness....smoothness of engine, trans (S-Tronic...which is a real gem of a trans) and the total operation of everything. In addition to excellent handling, the ride is really good. Add to that, it's a fast, fast car.

I want someone in my family to buy one. Trying to talk my GF into buying one, as a matter of fact!

billyperksii · June 2012

Actually, I went to the Audi dealer last Friday just to look at the A6 Premium Plus with either the 18 or 19 inch Sport Package and Cold Weather Package. What a surprise- non in stock-not even a single color combination. Anyway, the sales guy or should I say runner brought around a Premium Plus Non Sport for the test drive. I have to say that this car is fast for the weight its pulling. I was totally impressed with the handling because the test route was real twisty and sales guy kept insisting to push the car to its limit. Bottom line I like the car especially in the Dynamic(aka Sport) settings, very very enjoyable and the grunt was there at the bottom and at the top of tach. Here is what I dont like-the PRICE.
There is absolutely no value in buying this car over TL-SHAWD. For what you get without starting to adding in the options is just outright absurd. In my opinion, this is a nice 45K car- Premiun Plus Trim, I would put the Prestige at 53K. Dont get me wrong now- I like the car but I think its overpriced.

PS- Nice Dealership experience, the S4 I sat in, not pratical for me, way too tight in rear.

graphicguy · June 2012

billy....that supercharged V6 in the Audi is really, really sweet. A6 is beautiful. I kind of compare those German marks like the A6, E350, BMW 535i to the TL SH AWD. That's what makes the Acura so appealing. It gives you 85% of those for about 20% less cost.

I'm still smitten with the S4....and that's coming from a 335i owner.

I think if you just add the driver selectable driving modes, with the torque vectoring to the options list, you come in just under $50K MSRP. Maybe buy it for $48K? That's for a Quattro, with 333HP, one of the sweetest sounding engines I've ever heard, running acceleration times near muscle car territory.

kdshapiro · June 2012

Those other luxo sedans, are in a whole other league than these Ellpses. The 535 for example has a level of refinement not available int the g or TL. With tech not available in either.

dino001 · June 2012

Sometimes people cross-shop categories as the prices overlap (optioned 335 is well into 528). Also, some pople may be able to afford a 60K+ luxo sedan, but they don't mind saving 10-20 grand, if the price is right and get lower level. Graphic was basically making a point he'd rather keep the money and get TL, as those additional refinements are not worth the money to him. However, I agree that for purpose of this discussion, it is not really as relevant if 535 or A7 are good, bad or OK for the money. Their buying audience, while having some overlap, is not really the same.

graphicguy · June 2012

dino....that's exactly my point. KD.....you get to a point of diminishing returns. Aside from the styling of the TL (which I happen to like), I think it would have been a category killer, if it had a prettier face.

I'd be the first to admit that Acura (and Honda overall) has had a bit of an identity crisis the past few years. But, I think you could have said that about all the Japanese marks...even Toyota with their aspirations to be the biggest car company in the world didn't turn out so well for them. The tsunami only added fuel to the fire.

Hondas and Acuras are really good cars. However, most are used to them being great cars. Frankly, if I were one to keep a car for 200K miles (which I'm definitely not), my first stop for shopping for one would be my local Honda or Acura store.

It really is impressive what less than $40K (real world price) buys if you take a test drive of an Acura TL SH AWD.

billyperksii · June 2012

Graph- My Acura dealer is houding me to take a test drive on the advance trim, not really intrested but if I find some time I probably will.
My car only has 16K miles, he mentioned a buyout but I know some of the cost would be transferred to me. I am happy with the 09 TL TECH AWD,the car looks, drives and smell new.

The S4 no longer sports the V8, its a v6 Turbo.

nyccarguy · June 2012

The S4 is actually supercharged even though the badge says: "3.0 T"

I happen to like the TL SH-AWD styling & price for that matter. Electric power steering is a deal breaker for me though.

Still loving my 328xi;)

dino001 · June 2012

TL may as well be their best offering in terms of the value. However, it looks that their immediate future offerings (ILX) are just taking turn for the worse. Seeing specs and pricing of ILX, it reminds me Saab 9-2X, which as we all know was dressed-up Subaru Impreza. The base version was identicanl to base Impreza and it had something like 5 grand premium, absolutely ridiculous. The Aero (dressed WRX) has a slightly smaller differential. They did offer some extras, like leather seat, better wheels, and (I think) sunroof, but at additional price. It was such a disaster that they ended up discounting the thing at levels BELOW Subaru street pricing.

I know, ILX is much more separated from Civic, but the price premium over Civic is absolutely shocking. It is basically improved top of the line Civic at price of fully loaded Accord :sick: . What adds insult to injury, is that Civic itself is also acknowledged as underwhelming and underdelivering. I add my own experience with a rental Accord (base version) - a car I would put at bottom of my shopping list if I were in midsize market (obese floating barge with subpar interior). I see a seriously struggling company that is trying to live of its former glory (GM everybody?).

If Acura keeps going that path, they will be thrown into oblivion, even if the cars themselves are actually good. They seem to be misreading the market (or in general), threir brand cache. It may be just me, but there is something in it, if the Civic will go for facelift just one year after introduction. It is not all lost - Subaru had terrible start with new WRX (this was a textbook example of losing your way), but they listened and fixed it right away. Hope Honda will, too. But Acura seems all but finished in sedan world, even with their good TL.

kdshapiro · June 2012

If I could afford an M5, I would be driving one. At twice the price of my G is it twice the car? I guess it depends on what you value about the M5 vs the G (or TL or whatever).

On another topic, the TL doesn't get any respect:
- sales are lagging
- doesn't seem to win many comparos
- CRs favorite ellps is the G
- etc

Don't know why that is.

flightnurse · June 2012

Graphic when it comes to buying the Mid Level Euro cars over the likes of the M37 or TL, it comes down to Emotion (how the car makes you feel) and how well the car responds. The TL (super duper AWD) is a nice car, it is comfortable and one can do a 800 mile day in it and not feel tired. But for me there is no emotion in the car, no soul. This is where the Germans excel there is a certain feel they have that no other car manufacture can reproduce. That is why people like myself, keep going back to a German car over anything else. Its like the saying the Harley guys have, "If I have to explain it, then you wouldn't get it." This is so true, and true about anything.. I love Ducati Motorcycles, I currently have 3 of them. I want another, but no room in the garage. I can buy a Honda CBR1000RR that is faster in a straight line then my Ducati 916, but the engine note, the way it builds power the handling and the looks all invoke a certain emotion that no other motorcycles has ever had.. I have ridden and raced MANY motorcycles but none have moved me like Ducati's do.

BTW, if you want an experience of a outstanding engine note, drive a S5 or S6 with a V10 !!!

m6user · June 2012

Electric Power Steering. One can tolerate in a CUV/SUV but for a sports sedan it has to be done really well. Acura's isn't done really well, just ok. When Mazda can do electric steering that is excellent there is no excuse for Acura not doing as well or better.

nyccarguy · June 2012

m6user - I had the opposite in my garage. The TSX ("sporty sedan") had electric power steering which I detested. My wife's Pilot (SUV) has hydraulic power steering which I most definitely prefer.

The EPS is one of the main reasons I dumped my TSX after only 2 1/2 years.

graphicguy · June 2012

kd....Gs are fine cars. Like KYFDX, I've tried to like them more, but just can't. And, I don't particularly know why.

I read an article the other day (can't remember the source, though) stipulating that Honda is becoming arrogant.....that they believe they know better than their customers. That's a slipper slope, if true. My experiences with both Hondas and Acuras has been sterling. All models offer good value, and performance/tech/reliability/build quality....again, especially for what they cost.

ILS....I haven't seen one yet. I doubt seriously I'll drive one in the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, while I doubt I can talk her into it, the GF has agreed to go test drive an S4 tonight. She's been driving my 2nd car (Ford Fiesta) and seems perfectly happy in doing so. That said, she's got an Avalanche and a Subaru gathering dust in my driveway. Hmmmmm....I wonder if an Audi dealer would be interested in those?

Never drove the V8 S4. From what I understand, the SC V6 is faster with better MPG, though. I do love the way it sounds, too.

billyperksii · June 2012

"Gs are fine cars. Like KYFDX, I've tried to like them more, but just can't. And, I don't particularly know why." -Ditto.

kdshapiro · June 2012

To me the G with the wood accents reminds me of a BMW drivers interior. The aluminum belongs in the convertible, not in the sedan.

The TL is too busy on the inside, too big on the inside, too ugly on the outside and has a bigger turning radius than the competition.

Having said that I consider the G and TL equals. Each one has something unique for the driver.

graphicguy · June 2012

kd.....one of the advantages of the TL was the room on the inside. It had some really good seats, and I loved the way the steering wheel felt, too. That's what I liked about it. Trunk space was a little disappointing given the car's size, though. I think we're going to have to get used to buttons upon buttons on all cars. The ones in the TL took no time at all to master. Plus, most everything in the car could be accomplished either from the steering wheel or via voice command.

Again, I like the G. Just not enough to spend my own money on one.

Well....GF and I did a nice long test drive in the S4 last night. She liked it. I loved it. I didn't get the sense she liked it enough to pull the trigger on it, though. If she would get rid of both her vehicles ('04 Subaru and '05 Avalanche), she'd actually save a bit of money on insurance, and have no repairs (which are becoming more and more common on both vehicles recently). After I made the financial case, she's thinking about it.

The one we drove, wicked looking black on black, had Nav, B&O stereo (very nice), 7-speed s-tronic (love that trans), and driver select driving customization with a torque vectoring rear.

As good as my BMW handles and goes, the S4 does both better.

MSRP was mid $50s. To add to the sticker shock, it was the first 2013 they had in stock, so no discounts. We can't have that.

We'll see where this goes.

nyccarguy · June 2012

Somebody hacked your email

rayainsw · June 2012

I did drive 3 S4s, before settling on the BMW.
There is much to appreciate...
- Ray
Still - happy with my choice...

nyccarguy · June 2012

kd - Id love to drive an M5 too. In all honesty, how fast can can you realistically drive it on public roads? I often find myself doing 80+ (so the speedo says), then stab the throttle to pass and triple digits come up real quick. That's with BMW's base 3.0L, 230 hp Inline 6.

graphicguy · June 2012

nyccarguy.....Yeah....I've been inundated with folks who thought I was selling miracle medicine while in Indonesia. If any of my friends here received that email from me, my apologies. I've notified my email provider. Again, sorry!

ray....I like my BMW, too. I want both the S4 and my 335i :P .

But, I don't want to own both. GF likes AWD/4WD vehicles. She's also said she doesn't need two vehicles. And, she's been complaining about spending what seems like $200-$300/mo in repairs on both cars (which is why she's currently driving my Fiesta).

So, trying to "nudge" her a little bit towards the S4.

Clearly, I like it a whole lot more than she does. But, she does like it!

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