Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

darrinzramz · June 2012

your soooo right about the G35 I love mine!!!,and it is quicker than the BMW similar model,and it's a whole lot less!!!, I have 52,000 miles on my G35 and I LOVE IT!!,will not buy a BMW,or any other car!!

graphicguy · June 2012

Getting a little scary, GF was looking on line last night and found an S4 she liked, although it's about a 5 hour drive away in Chicago. She's getting a quote from the dealership, supposedly. This could be getting serious.

sweendogy · June 2012

Good for you- yeah the pre 2012, 328 is priced inline with the g37 - has less standard features- fake leather- and a old technology ( pre 2012)- and is as fast to 60 as a jeep wrangler. One thing you can't knock is yhe looks- BMW ages well

graphicguy · June 2012

Decided to take a weekend trip to Chicago. First stop is the Audi place after breakfast. Lunch at Debevics, Adler planetarium, a show, and dinner. We'll see what we drive home.

fedlawman · June 2012

nyccarguy · June 2012

Nice! Can't wait to find out! I saw a gorgeous S4 (w/ the SC V6) last night. Black with some beautiful gunmetal wheels (they were stock). I dig it!

fedlawman · June 2012

Nice! Audi has the styling of this gen nailed. Upscale, aggressive yet tasteful. Like rolling art - inside and out.

flightnurse · June 2012

I drove a RS4 last night, all I have to say is WOW. Anyone interested in a 2005 330ic with the ZPH package fully loaded, and a 2011 328i with M sportpackage! Never drove a car that would make me sell the 330.. However, I never drove a RS4...

dino001 · June 2012

How did you get RS4? Did you go to Germany to drive it? I'm asking because as for now, there is no RS4 for sale. There is S4. RS4 is one step above, they sold it in the US a few years ago, but not very recently. Last time it was 2007 and 2008.

kyfdx · June 2012

He didn't say it was new.. ?

dino001 · June 2012

I don't know, that's why I was asking. Either he drove an older one, or he drove one in Europe, or he simply drove S4, calling it RS4...

sweendogy · June 2012

I once drove a s4 v8 - was pretty sweet - huge grunt, not the best in the corners as its front heavy, I'm sure the new 6 is better. Rs4 I've seem a few but brand new premium was large vs the s4, is it worth it ? Glad we are back talking 4 door salons again.

Btw saw an e53 ? Wagon today - pretty cool- or is it the e55

graphicguy · June 2012

OK.....without further adieu, pics of the S4. I know you'd rather see these first before posting the story of how it ended up in our possession. It's a 2013, with S-Tronic, MMI NAV, Bang and Olefson media player, drive select (maps performance parameters), torque vectoring, Quattro, some other stuff that's on the sticker that I can't remember....

dino001 · June 2012

Beuautiful. Out of my range, for sure. Audis is definitely best styling from Germany, if not from all brand, bort exteriors and interiors, and its tech is also not to shaby, not at all. Hope you'll be happy together

Congrats.

nyccarguy · June 2012

Mazel-tov! It's GORGEOUS! We MUST hear how it drives!

graphicguy · June 2012

Not sure what happend there with the pictures, but it looks like they were cut off. Probably a story more suited to the Sales Front Lines Forum, but that one's drifted a bit.

So, how'd this come about?

Well, GF had been driving my Fiesta. She has a couple of vehicles of her own....an Avalanche and a Subaru....both in good shape.

When I had test driven the S4, I admit I loved the way it drove. It's as fast as my 335i (maybe a tenth or two quicker with the S4, 0-60, if that's important to know). But, as good as the ride/handling balance is on my 335i, it's better with the S4. Plus, I'd never sat in sport seats as good, or as comfortable as the ones in the S4. S-Tronic dual clutch transmission is a gem.

Trunk is bigger, more room, etc in the S4 (vs my 335i coupe).

So, GF had been talking about how she was planning to sell the Subaru as she wasn't using it much (because she was using my 2nd car, the Fiesta, most of the time). In addition, my son, who's been driving a car I game him, an '06 Honda Accord, with about 100K miles, was talking about buying something else.

So, as we started plotting what, if anything we were going to do, I found a reason to test drive S4s at local dealers. We have two. One, about 30 minutes from me, the other about 45 mins-1 hour away. The closest one had one S4. Nice car....they acted like it was made of solid platinum. The other one further away, had one '12 and one '13. They were willing to deal, but really low balled the trade.

Speaking of the trade, I decided to take my son's Accord back (actually, the title was still in my name), in trade for the Fiesta (less than a year old with about 5K miles on it). And, he gave me $5K, on a loan I made to him a year or so ago.

With Father's Day upon us, we decided to spend the weekend, all together (GF, son, son's GF) in Chicago (about a 4.5-5 hour drive). Based on that, and the desire for the GF, and son's GF to go clothes shopping, and the men going car shopping. We drove the Accord, with the understanding as described above.

Called a couple of dealerships around the Chicago area to see if they had any S4s. Not a lot of these cars out there. One dealership had 4 of them, but all the rest had 1-2. Again, these are scarce cars.

Did a little homework before heading out to the big city. The Accord was worth between low $9s to high $9s on a trade. I came down right in the middle since the miles were a shade high.....$9,500 was the trade number. I had also done some contract work for VW of USA a few years back. My contact had told me at the time to let him know if I was ever in the market for a VW product, and he'd get my a supplier number for the discount they offer (6% off MSRP). I had that in my pocket.

To be continued.....

kdshapiro · June 2012

Lol, as nyccarguy said...Mazel tov. Lots of luck.

rayainsw · June 2012

Very nice.
Is that interior black with Alcantara inserts?
- Ray
Ready for The Rest of The Story...

graphicguy · June 2012

Thanks all. Appreciate the good wishes.

How does it drive? I'll compare it to the 335i. Well, that really isn't fair, given you can change the driving characteristics with "Driver Select" on the S4. But, I left it in "Dynamic" mode on the drive back from Chicago, which is the most agressive tuning.

Steering is lighter than the BMW at low speeds, but tightens up nicely and linearly as the speeds increase. A smidgeon less feel of the road at low speeds (like when parking), spot on feel at speed. Given the rear wheel drive bias, and the torque vectoring, there wasn't a speed I was afraid to attack a corner. I'm sure there were limits, but only because of the tires (which have high limits to begin with).

The sales person (who was a huge enthusiast) suggested I test the "launch mode"....essentially, turning off trac control, rev the engine while foot is firmly on the brake, then release the brake. All 4 wheels hook up and WOW, I was literally launched, like a sling shot. Again, didn't have a stop watch. But, I would imagine if you're into stop light wars, unless you're staring at a 'vette, or a high buck exotic along side of you, you won't lose many of those.

Flinging into a corner, the S-tronic shifts down with a blip to rev match and then powers out the other end as you exit. Impressive.

As mentioned, it's more comfortable than my 335i, and has more room. Interior is gorgeous. Materials and build are all very high quality (even compared to my 335i, which isn't a slouch in that dept, at all).

On a side note about tires, while we didn't buy the car we test drove, there was a difference between it, and the one we bought.......the tires. The test car had all season sports tires (Y rated). The one we eventually bought, had summer only tires. The GF, after driving both cars, decided she wanted the all seasons.

The dealer agreed on the swap at no charge. Apparently, the all-seasons were a special order on a car in which the sale fell through. So, they were using it as a demo. But, it only had about 100 miles on it. I'm sure if you would track the car, you could tell the difference between the summer tires and the all-seasons. But, I couldn't.

I mentioned previously, I got between 28-29 MPG on my 335i on all highway driving. There wasn't much in the way of break-in recommendations for the S4 in the manual (don't redline it or slam on the brakes in the first 500 miles). We cruised home to SW OH on a tankful, getting 26 MPG in the S4, on a green motor, driving anywhere from 70-80 MPH the entire way. That included some in-town, stop and go in the city, too. I'm thinking the S4 should match the 335i once the engine loosens up a bit.

To be continued......

graphicguy · June 2012

ray...it is black leather with alcantara (whatever that is) inserts. Really nice seats.

driver100 · June 2012

VW product, and he'd get my a supplier number for the discount they offer (6% off MSRP). I had that in my pocket.

To be continued.....

Great story GG. I can't wait to hear the rest. By the way, that is a beautiful car. I hope you print your story on sales frontlines too.

Briefly, we were going to trade in my wife's 2008 335Xi BMW for a 2013 328 or 335ix. We went on Saturday to test them. I checked the value of our trade in before I left and I got a range of $20,100 for dented one, and $24800 for top condition. Appraiser gave a value of $20000, said that is what they pay for them at the "BMW auctions".

btw, the car is in mint condition, new tires, alignment, and 38k miles!

We left, I told the salesman his price was good, he would take 5.5% off the new one. The difference was $42k for the 335 and $36k for a 328.
My wife really wants a garage door opener on the mirror, and to get that on a 335 you need to take the navi-camera option which costs $4500. On a 328 you need 2 options, $1500+$4500. She doesn't need those.
Before we left I said I would pay $40k difference, for the 335. He said it won't work.

We left, I told the salesman, who is excellent, his price on the new one is good, but I am not too pleased with the allowance on the trade in, and I hinted the BMW auction sounds like an excuse to give you a low price.

We checked out an Audi dealer on the way home, mainly because I was curious to see how much they would give me for our trade in. The salesman had a standard 2011 A4 coupe to try (or was it an A5?), and we loved it. Then we tried a 4 door 2013 Premium Plus automatic sedan, just to make sure the car felt right.

Too be continued.............

driver100 · June 2012

There were lots of things we liked about the A4, more than the 335. For one, the clutch in the BMW doesn't engage until it is at the top 25% of the way. The Audi was smooth anywhere. Both front seats go amazingly high, for good vision. On top of that the dash and the hood are very low, giving excellent vision. The navi/radio/camera screen in the bmw just stands up on the dash, but the Audis is built in. We felt the Audi was basically more comfortable, not as jazzy, more European in it's style.

So, we asked the salesman about pricing. Without wincing he said he would give us $24000 for the 335 trade in. He said, it is in mint condition, he will have no trouble selling it, he will get a minimum of $25000 for it, make a quick profit, and he will get us into Audis. The price difference was $27000 at that point This was sounding too good to be true because the BMWs were $36k and $42k. We asked if he discounted and he said he would take 3% off. I said take 4% off and it's a done deal. He agreed and we got the car for $25k difference! Truthfully, we both would have taken the Audi if the 328 and the Audi were on a lot and we wanted to choose one. I feel like I saved $11000 and actually came out with a car we both like more.

It's also nice because the navi/camera/radio are all included, and THE CAR COMES WITH A GARAGE DOOR OPENER ON THE MIRROR as standard equipment.

My wife says she is more excited with the Audi because the salesman said, Audi's main customer base is Europe and China. BMW is concentrating on North America so their cars are becoming more American. I think there is some truth in that, BMW is getting jazzier. You have to pay $1500 to get a Sportline and that is what every one wants. The Audi is all equipped ready to go.

When we got home there was a message on the answering machine. The BMW salesman called to say he worked out a better price on the trade with the appraiser. I said, sorry, it's too late. I feel bad, he worked with us for a few months, and it was just a fluke that we decided to drop into the Audi dealer.

graphicguy · June 2012

driver.....We're fortunate to be able to get cars that are so capable as either the BMW or the Audi. These are cars that are really at the very pinnacle of the lux/sports car round up. From this point, cars get bigger, heavier, thirstier, etc.

Driving a 5 series, or even an E350, you can feel the performance penalties from their smaller siblings. Now, if that's what you like and want, perfect. I think most on this board would rather have a faster, more nimble car than what those represent, however.

Saw an A7 on the showroom. Slick looking car. Even the A6 is a pretty car...inside and out. Maybe an S6 is something I'd be interested in at some point. Not right now though.

OK.....where were we.

Before the GF, my son and I headed out to Chicago, my son and I shopped his (my) Accord at a couple of dealers, including one of the local Audi dealers. We've all heard the dealers, and their rationale for low balling a trade (wrong color, wrong equipment, soft market for the car, need to wholesale it, etc). Bottom line, the Accord couldn't be more smack dab in the heart of the plate when it comes to used car desirability. They're reliable, good on gas (4 cyl, like mine), handle well, built well, will last 200K+ miles if reasonable care is taken. So, none of those "reasons" for low-balling really resonated with me. And, this particular one had never seen a paint booth or a body shop. Yes, there are some chips and a couple of dings here and there, but you would have to look hard to find them. It had good rubber, clean interior, everything worked the way it should, documented oil changes every 5K miles. All routine maintenance up to date.

Locally, I was offered $7.5-$8K....or, about $2,000-$2,500 from what I had researched as the car's trade value was. My opinion, this would retail for $13K-$15K all day long. Let's say some lot was in a hurry to sell it....$12K would get it gone in a few days, not weeks. $9,500 was the right number on a trade.

GF and I spent a good amount of time talking about the Audi. S4s aren't cheap. She thought about leasing. But, anyone who knows me on these boards, knows I don't like leasing. So, I talked her out of it.

Without some hefty money up front, it wasn't going to be doable for her. We figured the payment she would be comfortable with. We figured what it would take. That's how we launched the plan we made.

It took some car finagling on my part. And, my name is on the note, since I'm the one who put the downpayment up. She still has to sell an 8 year old Subaru and give me the proceeds. And, if anything were to happen between she and I (we've been together for many years, so no need to go there....just covering all bases), the car reverts to me since I put most of the upfront money on it. But, she's making payments.

As mentioned, the closest Audi dealer wanted MSRP on the only S4 they had in stock. They would not honor the Supplier Discount certificate. That dealer also offered the lowest trade value. Not doing business there (KYFDX....this is the dealership in Montgomery). The other dealership, further away, honored the supplier discount, but still came in $2,000 shy of my number on the trade.

GF contacted my son, knowing I love Chicago in the Summer, and planned to take me there for my birthday (which was last week). That's how the plan sprang to life to research Chicago dealers for the S4.

She found a dealer who had the most stock and told them what we were looking to do....with the trade and the supplier certificate. As a back-up, there were two other dealers who had at least 1 S4 in stock. In short, she contacted all of them. Told them what we were trying to do, with the qualifier that we were driving 5 hours, were going to have to spend the night, and had to pay for gas/meals and lodging. If we couldn't make a deal, they would have to pay $250 for our gas and lodging. Smart girl....that's one of the (many) reasons I love her.

Only one dealership agreed to the terms in writing (which she insisted on) via an email....the one with 4 S4s in stock. They wanted the VIN for the Accord, and an agreement from us that if the Honda were substantially different than what we described, the deal was off.

She told me of her agreement. We decided that if anything about the deal changed, we'd be prepared to walk away, and drive home in the Accord. My son didn't have much choice. He had to agree to whatever we agreed to if things didn't work out.

You already know how this turned out since I've posted pics of the car. But, there's a little more to the story.

To be continued......

flightnurse · June 2012

Down Dino, it was a 2008 RS4 with a 6 spd Manuel, the owner has a R8 GT, this is reason why he is selling the RS4. I'm seriously thinking of selling both of my BMW's, if I had the RS I wont need neither BMW's...

flightnurse · June 2012

Graphic congrats !!! Great car The S-Tronic is a great tranny have fun !

graphicguy · June 2012

flight....thanks. I'd be on that RS4 like sugar on cane.

The S-tronic, in manual mode, snaps off shifts quicker than any other transmission, manual or automatic, I've ever experienced. It's a jewel.

BTW....the S4 is a rolling "hot spot". You can use your Kindle Fire, iPad, iPhone via wifi. It's free for 6 months. Then, they charge $30/mo for the right to do so.

stickguy · June 2012

Man, that is a convoluted plan for buying a car!

driver100 · June 2012

These are cars that are really at the very pinnacle of the lux/sports car round up.

We are very fortunate to be able to drive these incredible machines. My one friend has a more incredible car though, he has a Maserati. Unfortunately he was backing out of the driveway trying to avoid his wife's car and he scraped the bottom of the rear bumper against a car that was parked on the street. He said he wants to sell the Maserati (about 5 months old) because of a huge blind spot on the quarte panels. He asked me how much damage I estimated it would cost to fix. I thought, 2 scrapes a bit of bulge, hmmmm $600!

He said, no, $4000!

That was quite a story about how you got the new Audi...it is one beautiful car.

graphicguy · June 2012

Thanks guys....

Stickguy....you're right. It's a not a direct line to get to where we ended up.

So, we left on Friday after work....GF, son and me, on our way to Chicago. Grabbed dinner once we arrived (Weber Grill.....highly recommended). Early Saturday, GF heads for the Miracle Mile. My son and I head to the Audi dealership.

We get there as soon as they open, 9:00 a.m. Two S4s are sitting in front, one black, and one white, all cleaned up. The GF didn't care which one, but liked the black one, and the white one, based on pics the sales person sent her.

Salesperson knew from our OH tags who we were, and immediately approached, offered coffee and doughnuts. "Yes" to the coffee. "No" to the doughnuts (son helped himself though). I immediately liked the black over the white one. Salesman gets the key, gives it to us for a test drive, as well as us giving the Accord keys to him for inspection.

We take a 30 minute test drive. Pull back to the dealership. Salesman asks us to meet the General Manager. We shake hands. He's a nice guy. Explains that he hates giving trade quotes without seeing the trade. He points out a couple of small parking dings and paint chips on the Honda.

Knowing where this is going, I ask...."so, you think the $9,500 offer you made is one you can't support?". A little hesitation, but in essence, that's what he was saying.

He wanted to counter. I really didn't care and got up. Asked him if he was going to keep his agreement to at least cover our gas and lodging. He seemed surprised at the suddeness that this deal came to such an abrupt halt.

He said...."I don't want this to be adversarial. Didn't you come to buy a car?"

"I did........drove 5 hours to buy one, as a matter of fact. Not willing to waste any more time".

The GM asked the sales person to get us some sodas.

"Can I see your Supplier Certificate?"

"Sure, but I'm stuck on the $9,500 for the trade".

He gave a cursory glance at the Supplier Certificate.

"We want you as a customer, no matter how far away you live. We're not going to dicker with you over a few hundred dollars. We appreciate you coming all this way to do business with us. Congratulations on your new car."

30 minutes later, finished with F&I, I was in the delivery area with the sales person going over the features. As we finished, the GM came out, gave me a $100 gift certificate to Rosebuds Restaurant in downtown Chicago.

Good deal. Good dealership. Good experience. Great car!

kyfdx · June 2012

gave me a $100 gift certificate to Rosebuds Restaurant in downtown Chicago.

Nice... I like the one on Rush Street... better ambiance..

flightnurse · June 2012

Graphic there are some people who would call you a wimp as well as saying that your car does not belong in the performance category just because it does not have a manual. However, since you and I and some others know better than this.. Enjoy..

regarding the RS4, the owner hasn't placed it officially on sale, he was my seatmate on my flight home on friday.

driver100 · June 2012

Good deal. Good dealership. Good experience. Great car!

Exactly! The whole car is as good as it gets but I love that flat bottom steering wheel!

graphicguy · June 2012

kyfdx.....our waitress said there are 3 restaurants owned by the same people who own Rosebuds. Really good food. BTW, after dinner, we all went window shopping at a dealership about a block away from the restaurant that had Bentley, Lambos, Ferraris, Rolls in the showroom.

Flightnurse....I have no issues with driving an auto....especially some of the dual clutch autos out there. No way I can shift as quickly as the better autos out there. Plus, they have become so good, they don't linger in any given gear just because the manufacturer wants to maximize MPG.

kyfdx · June 2012

Yeah... Rosebud was about a block from our hotel... We ate at Rosebud on Rush..

A friend of mine recommended the place... I thought it was great Italian food!

flightnurse · June 2012

Graphic I hear what you are saying, I could not agree more.. I'm hoping that BMW get's there DCT working like others...

nyccarguy · June 2012

We've picked up 2 Audi Fans/Drivers here on the board. Impressive for a weekend!

driver100 · June 2012

We've picked up 2 Audi Fans/Drivers here on the board. Impressive for a weekend!

That reminds me. My wife loves European cars much more than any others...I prefer them, but I could get used to a Cadillac or a Mustang.

The Audi salesman said something that my wife was very impressed with. He said BMW and Mercedes have their biggest markets in the U.S. so their cars are being made to appeal to that market the most. Audi's biggest market is Europe and then China. He said Audi for him, is holding onto it's European roots.

I really think what he said is true. When we tested the new 335 it is getting more American in ride quality and in the jazzy interior layout. The Audi has more of a basic Euro driving feel, and the interior is tastefully less jazzed up.

In our case, we like the Audi better, and it was $11000 less than a 328, and $15000 less than a 335 (if you consider $4000 more for the trade in)which we would have to have bought because her current car is a 335 and it would be difficult to go for the smaller engine after having a 335.

fedlawman · June 2012

Great story Graphic. Way to stick to your guns and get what you want. Kudos to the dealer too for being on the up and up and treating you with respect.

Congrats!

nyccarguy · June 2012

That was definitely a dealer who wanted to do business & make a sale rather than dicker around. He knew you were a serious buyer and were willing to turn around if he offered you one red cent below what he'd agreed to on your trade. Bravo! Well done as always!

sweendogy · June 2012

I am one who thinks if you are buying a true drivers car you should turn your own gears if given the opportunity - I will not knock a guy who's getting a great car for his "GF" and has a interesting story behind it- which includes a nice dinner story- also interested in your rs4 story as well - but the automatic ruins the fact you are considering a world class car and would even consider an auto -

And I stand by the fact that it you are Into Ellps (this is on topic) and roll a 328 it should be manual, if you infact are looking for the ps in such car. - because it may turn tight and have a great feel- it still rolls to 60 as fast as a wrangler - :surprise:

flightnurse · June 2012

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit now is it?

The RS4 I looked at, is not an auto, in fact all RS4 came with a 6 spd manual, this was stated in my posting. Now too sure who you are talking about in regards to a 328, all my BMW's are manuals.

Now talking about ELLPS, I have decided to place my 328 up for sale, so far 5 calls on it. I'll be happy if I sell it this weekend.

FN

rayainsw · June 2012

'I have decided to place my 328 up for sale'
Decided on the replacement?
- Ray
Just curious...

sweendogy · June 2012

Personal attacks not needed- good luck on the sale of your car - please keep us updated

graphicguy · June 2012

FN...you're getting serious about that RS4 aren't you? I can tell it. That would be nice....very nice.

flightnurse · June 2012

Ray, I travel for work, I'm on the road between 2 to 14 days at at time, having two cars one doesn't get driven very much, the 2011 only has 4500 miles and I purchased it in Oct 2011. Besides I haven't warmed up to it like I have my 330i, my partner doesn't want it, the back seat is on the small size for clients.

I test drove a 2008 Audi RS4 w/6 Spd manual the past weekend. Have to say, WOW, handled like it was on rails, the power was incredible, everything worked in harmony the clutch feel, shifting, steering wheel, seats, I was very impressed. So once I sell my 328, I'll decided on what I want to do, I truly love my 330i, but that RS4 is something else, I can sell both my BMW's, pay cash for the RS4 and have money left over.

nyccarguy · June 2012

Goood luck with the sale of your E90 328i. Please keep us up on all of the gory details when it comes to the selling process (tire kickers, strokes, low ballers & then of course the actual sales story). 4500 miles since October 2011? I took delivery at the end of March 2012 and have over 4600 miles!

We also want details on the RS4 if that's what you go with!

nyccarguy · June 2012

This looks like the beginning of the end of our beloved manual transmission.

sweendogy · June 2012

congrats fellas you did it.

graphicguy · June 2012

FN...I 2nd NYC's desire to hear the gory details on the RS4. Of course, pics are required, too.

NYC....I saw some review a couple of evenings ago on youtube touting BMW's new and improved DSG. The reviewer said it was a huge step up for them. Wish I could remember who did the review. It was a professional review, however.

It's clear where all the money is going for transmission development...auto-manuals, dual clutch, more gears (Audi's manual is a 6 speed, S-Tronic is a 7 speed). As we've experienced, these transmissions are quite good. They're even becoming more fuel efficient than manuals, too.

With steering wheel paddle shifting, I can't even see a reason to have a manual on a track car.

sweendogy · June 2012

"With steering wheel paddle shifting, I can't even see a reason to have a manual on a track car."

what ever happened to testing a drivers skill, concentration and endurance?

next is a car that drives itself around the track- guy with the most expensive car wins.. great plan..

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