Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

billyperksii · July 2012

Mark 20K in 11 months, that's a whole lot of driving.
I have 18K and I am going on 3yrs (8/17 exactly).
I guess I will have enough equity in my car when the 2014 hits the showrooms.

graphicguy · July 2012

Mark...appreciate your thoughts. I loved my TL SH AWD. As you say, it's an "S4 lite".

Be anxious to see what the TL will become, if they release an "S" version, will there be a future TL model, at all?

markcincinnati · July 2012

Supposedly -- the next TL will be called, in keeping with the new nomenclature, TLX. Of course this is confusing or could be to anyone who knows the way the car biz names things -- X's typically mean cars that are ALL WHEELS DRIVEN (328ix, M37X, X6, FX56 and so forth.)

Also, for those shopping this apparent class of car, the transmission choices should never include fewer than 6 speeds and often what is needed to be compared with the best is 7 or 8 speeds (and, if possible a 6 speed stick.)

If one of your key features and differentiators has been SH-AWD, Torque Vectoring, or whatever that special secret sauce is, dumbing down the line also is a way to telegraph you're place on the Premium Class pecking order is falling not rising.

I suspect Acura does OK financially due to the popularity of the MDX. The dealer I use in Columbus had dozens and dozens of MDX's and not much of anything/everything else. I swear I saw no RL's of any MY, no ZDX's (but I really think that the ZDX is dead and no one has been informed, yet), a few ILX's and a few RDX's.

I have no issue with Acura making a decision to slide gracefully out of, off of the Premium Class list -- and maybe that is what is being done. Somehow it seems, however, that they're oblivious to what is going on around them.

I used to think of Acura as the Japanese Audi -- no more. In fact I can't seem to find any descriptive term that fits the line. Their cars, and I now have the proof, are all over the map.

I used to think of Acuras as "members of the club" -- now I'm pretty certain they're no longer members and that maybe they don't know it or don't care.

:surprise:

m6user · July 2012

It seems to me that Acura has decided to compete more directly with Lexus as evidenced by the new RDX which is clearly aimed at the RX. The RX is certainly a premium or luxury vehicle but also not a great driver or handler.

As to is whether it is premium or not? What is the definition of premium? Is it track performance or luxury appointments or does it have to be both? Does it include dealer experience or is just how a car accelerates and handles.

Now, the title of this particular discussion happens to be Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans. There are going to the vehicles that are clearly no brainers and there are going to vehicles that are at the very bottom of the list and up for some discussion as to whether they belong or not. The base TL is very similar to ES but the TL SH-AWD is closer to the GS. The TSX V6 is close to the IS350.

Have to agree that Acura seems to have drifted away from the performance aspect that many liked about it in years past. I think they still have a good premium/luxury product that is comparable in quality to all the rest but may be towards the bottom of the ranking and not towards the top. Somebody always has to represent the bottom of a catergory and it appears Acura is that somebody.

As long as they keep selling a ton of MDX and now the new RDX and a good number of TL and TSX they are probably happy. Even though a bunch of enthusiusts would like every car they build be track worthy. They might not be as lost as some would think but have found a way to compete better against Lexus and Infiniti which I think, in their eyes, are their biggest competitors.

I think sometimes we forget that Honda is a much smaller company than Toyota, Nissan, VAG, Mercedes, BMW, GM etc and cannot and will not try to compete on all levels as they do. Little more niche IMO.

sweendogy · July 2012

I'm amazed that this is now a topic- Acura died with the deaths of the NSx and the integra - would also throw the no coupe, no convertible, no sports car, terrible flagship, no v8, dropping the turbo 4, the second tsx, the beak of the line, the Zdx, the delay in a 6speed auto, fwd... I need to take a breath - I'm missing a fewthings - this was a thougth 4 years ago Now it's obvious- just like its obvious that the tsx (gen 2) should never have been included in Ellps- I agree standard TL should go as well.

Curse of the beak.

plekto · July 2012

The Acura TSX is actually a re-badged Accord. In Japan, it sells as the "Accord". So it's not viable for this category at all - not even close. No matter what lipstick and dress they put on the thing, it's still not a luxury car.

How does this tie into the TL?

The TL is sold as an extra-large Accord over there. Essentially exactly what Toyota did with the Camry and Avalon. Same basic idea, just larger. Honda is pimping it out as a luxury car, but it's really a large family sedan. Essentially a Japanese Buick Lucerne.

It's simply not part of this category, at least not in Japan it wouldn't be. Perhaps because we have such a miserable selection of good cars in the U.S. compared to most of the rest of the world we might consider it to be a performance sedan, but it's really not.

I'd buy a CTS over a TL in a millisecond.

m6user · July 2012

Is a CTS-V quite a bit different car than the base CTS? Is the Shelby Mustang quite a different car than a base V6 Mustang? I don't believe just because a car is sold somwhere else that outfitting the car completely different doesn't change the character of the car. The same can be said of the Honda CR-X and the Acura RDX. They share some(very little) attributes but one only has to feel and drive them to understand they are not the same vehicle whatsoever. The people that say the new RDX is just a CR-X with some lipstick are clearly ill informed and probably have not been in both but just repeating others. I'm sure there are many more examples of plainjane autos that with the right equipment become completely different experiences.

I really don't know much about the Euro Accord except that the TSX is based on it. I guess I'm not that hung up on the fact that a premium car here is not considered a premium car elsewhere and I don't worry about what is offered in other countries that we don't get here either. If it bothered me that much I guess I'd have to move there or quit bitchin about it.

plekto · July 2012

But... quite literally, the TSX *is* the Accord in Japan. No change. They just swap the console over to the left side, change the lights and so on to U.S. DOT approved ones, change the nav system (if equipped) to a U.S. one, slap an Accura badge on it, and it's done.

The TSX *is* a great car, mind you, but as the real Accord, you'd expect it to be. What we get as the "Accord" over here is actually an in-between car, much like how the Corolla is in between the Camry and the Yaris. In Japan, to compete with Toyota, they actually sell four main levels. Toyota would be Yaris/Corolla/Camry/Avalon. Honda is City/Civic/Inspire(U.S. Accord)/Accord(U.S. TSX) all "Honda" on the badge.

All not premium cars in Japan or Europe, either. It's such a scummy tactic to offer us fewer dumbed-down cars and then charge us a significant up-charge for an Acura badge.

It's big, soft, and front wheel drive. The 4 cylinder engine is noisy and rough, the steering is vague, and while it's lovely to look at, and has a great interior, it's simply not even close to cars like the C class, the CTS, and the G37. Let alone a 3 series.

graphicguy · July 2012

Mark....interesting take. There's a certain contingency that remember the Legend as the car that built Acura. That's overall true.

However, that recipe (powerful motor, technologically top of class, premium ride/handling, premium build/materials, for less money than the Germans) doesn't seem to be on Acura is following any more.

I don't know if they can't build that anymore, or they choose not to. But, regardless of the classification, they still build good cars.

Frankly, I've seen all the Japanese marks falter a bit since the tsunami and resultant nuke meltdown occurred. Who knows? It could take another decade for the likes of Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus to recover.

I would say that maybe Acura hasn't kept pace with the other Lux/performance cars we've talked about here. But, I contend they're still good cars (i.e. your TL SH AWD).

I know they would have kept me in the fold if the current TL would have kept pace with the Germans. So far, not even the newly released Lexi, Acura, and Infinitis have been able to do that.

You want to see, feel, hear where the money goes in the premium you pay for BMWs and Audis, listen to the drivetrain, test the suspension, notice the ride/handling balance, look at the premium materials they use, and the solidity of their build. That's where you can tell the biggest differences.

Obviously, you already know this since you've owned the German brands.

fedlawman · July 2012

What about all the BMW 3 series 1.8 and 2.0L sedans in Europe? Cloth seats, steel wheels, etc. - they aren't considered "premium cars" over there.

markcincinnati · July 2012

I test drove a CTS/4 Premium Luxury with the 19" wheel option and the FE2 suspension.

This was the day I test drove an Audi S4 and the TL SH-AWD Advance.

The Cadillac was the least desirable of the three -- IF one had any lust for even a hint of performance. The 3.6 engine seemed enthusastic in its sounds and refinement but was unable to press you back in the seat at full throttle. The feeling in the CTS was "same day service."

The CTS lacked the driver and passenger above-door handles that even the least expensive VW's offer -- and it's not like passengers would have no use for them. This symbolically told me where Cadillac's head was, and that is Cadillac's head is up its nose!

Now, for the money (not MSRP, lease money per month, that is) the pecking order (from low payment to high) was Acura TL SH-AWD Advance, Cadillac CTS/4 Premium Luxury and the S4 (Prestige). At these respective levels of trim each of the three offered about the same content (although the Cadillac didn't have blind spot monitoring which seems like a glaring oversight.)

If Acura is trying to compete with Infiniti, I know of none of their cars that offers the performance level, interior poshness or HP for the buck offered by Infiniti.

I do like my Acura (which is $547/mo for 36 months) -- I am not crazy about the styling (exterior) and there is very little "premium" anything in the interior except the heated and ventilated seats -- the 2012 Acura does a decent impression of my 2005 Audi A6 (which had the +sized wheels and tires, but no sport suspension, but w/sport seats) -- and the SH-AWD allows the TL to perform "similarly" to an Audi S4 (S4-Lite, i.e.)

Rumors are rumors and who knows what is real -- so I am planning on keeping my mind open about a 2014 TLX, Cadillac ATS/4, Audi A? and both the G and M Infiniti's.

I am looking for my next car to have what appears to be the reliability and durability of my '12 Acura and my wife's '11 Infiniti (and the performance of at least an Audi A4 in terms of handling.) The Audi may have to be removed from my list, in fact, due to my suspicions that virtually any German car on the market (and I have had 29 of them) shows and feels its age more quickly than the Japanese (and maybe even than the Cadillac, I have no experience with that.)

I priced out an ATS/4 with the turbo four and premium pack -- it turned out to be just south of $50K -- with a 6 speed auto. Word is there will be an 8-speed auto "soon." Might be worth a look-see.

If the greatest gripe I have is that the lesser TL's have no place on either the ELLPS or LPS boards, but that the top o' the line SH-AWD version is decent -- well, I think we all are in pretty good shape with any of these vehicles if configured to match one's proclivities.

Still, 2014 can't come soon enough! :surprise:

flightnurse · July 2012

It seems to me that Acura has decided to compete more directly with Lexus as evidenced by the new RDX which is clearly aimed at the RX. The RX is certainly a premium or luxury vehicle but also not a great driver or handler.

I disagree, the MDX is the direct competitor of the RX, in both price and size. Lexus does not have a RDX/X3/EX competitor as of yet and I don't believe Lexus has to have another SUV in it's lineup.

markcincinnati · July 2012

The comparison that makes the most sense, size-wise and price-wise is to compare the MDX to the RX. I don't believe there is a car in the Lexus lineup that in similar in size/class, etc to the RDX.

I have NOT driven the RDX. I have read reports and sat in one.

The RDX is a nice step up from the old RDX -- in terms of "styling." In every other way that I can think of, the new RDX is clearly a nice, a fancier a "better" CR-V in about every way that I can think of.

At the current moment, I would look closely at a new BMW X1 (w the turbo i4) over the RDX. I'd probably look at a Q5 over the RDX, too.

Now then, offer up the SH-AWD on the RDX and it becomes the pick of the litter since it would be a bargain, or at least one would think it ought to be.

For the record, as if there is a record, I do not track my cars -- I look at SH-AWD as both a performance improvement on regular roads and a safety feature considering the understeering habits of virtually all FWD and non-SH-AWD, AWD versions.

Drive it like YOU live!

flightnurse · July 2012

Graphic while the Legend was a good car, I believe what set Acura apart from everybody else was it's dealership and how they treated the customer. Loaner cars, greeting the customer with a smile, going to the customers place of work and exchanging cars. Going beyond the typical dealership experience that was being offered in 1986, even by the Germans.

robr2 · July 2012

The TL is sold as an extra-large Accord over there.

Actually you're wrong on this count.

The North America Accord is sold over in Japan as the Inspire. The TL isn't offered there at all as it was replaced by our Accord.

Yes the TSX is the JDM/Euro Accord. It is a bit of a pedestrian car in those markets and with good reason - that's what sells. Bringing it here as the TSX was a way to get people in the door of Acura dealers as the TL was getting bigger and more expensive.

Is it an ELLP? That's up to the buyer to decide. By offering it with a V6 in North America (it's not offered that way in the other markets) was a way to bring it up to ELLP standards although the 4 offers sufficient engine and chassis performance.

graphicguy · July 2012

Mark...I enjoy reading your impressions. Although, my GF's S4 is the first Audi I've experienced, it is a step above (actually, a couple of steps above) my former TL SH AWD....regardless of the parameters I use to measure both of them. The S4 performs better, has better materials, etc.

I've had 3 BMWs. And, all of them have been as stout as anything I've ever owned. So, we'll have to disagree about how they age.

I've mentioned before, I've tried to like Infinitis. I've test driven (several times) the new M37 and the G37. While the have the "window dressing" down pretty well. The refinement and suspension work is where they fall down....at least compared to what I drive.

I thought the M37 was very nice on the inside, however.

I've never been able to warm to the exterior styling of either the G or the M. M was cheaper than the GF's S4. We still didn't like it.

FN.....I think everyone in the Acura community is awaiting the worthy successor to the Legend, for all the reasons you state. It hasn't happened yet.

flightnurse · July 2012

Is a CTS-V quite a bit different car than the base CTS? Is the Shelby Mustang quite a different car than a base V6 Mustang? I don't believe just because a car is sold somwhere else that outfitting the car completely different doesn't change the character of the car.

I would say yes, just as there is quite a difference between a 528i and a M5, basic body shell, but after that completely different car.

flightnurse · July 2012

Is it an ELLP? That's up to the buyer to decide.

Not on this board some people have decided for the whole group that the TSX does not belong here. However, I agree, the buyer is the one who decides their money.

flightnurse · July 2012

I've had 3 BMWs. And, all of them have been as stout as anything I've ever owned. So, we'll have to disagree about how they age.

Graphic I agree here too, my 05 has no rattles, and the body alignment is perfect not bad for a car that has been tracked. Mark has made comment the age thing a couple of times, I wish he would give examples.

m6user · July 2012

Actually we're both right. The RX competes against both. If you look at size the RX is smack dab in between the RDX and MDX but is actually closer in size to the RDX. It's a five passenger like the RDX, rides and handles similar to the RDX and has almost the same powertrain as the RDX. The MDX is bigger, holds 7 pax, has the sportier engine and also SH-AWD. The main thing the RX and MDX have in common is the price.

I think with the redesign of the RAV-4(after a long in the tooth run) you may see a Lexus CUV based on that and a stretched RX go to 7 pax seating to compete more directly with the MDX and JX. I think if anything goes in the Lexus lineup it may be one or more of the more traditional based SUVs. There is already rumors of a Lexus version of the Prius V.

m6user · July 2012

That was my point exactly. Just because a car is based on something equestrian doesn't mean with the right drivetrain/suspension/luxury fittings the car isn't a different beast.

markcincinnati · July 2012

I agree completely with your comments re:Audi S4. I likened the TL SH-AWD Advance 6 speed auto to an S4, but it is S4-lite or S4-like -- I use those words, phrases in an attempt to offer up my impressions as a long-time Audi owner (who has also had 3 BMW's). I don't think most folks would ever cross shop these two cars.

I was looking for another A4 Prestige with sport package, etc, but I was also looking to keep the payments UNDER $600 per month. Couldn't do it with the content I wanted in the car. The A4 Prestige content and the TL SH-AWD Advance have similar content. The TL and A4 have similar wheel bases and both are "nice" cars -- with the nod going to the A4 on all counts.

If I were forced to keep the TL for 5 more years, I think I could live with that, since the TL refuses to betray its mileage. By this time on my A4 (20K miles) there were "feelable" signs of wear (not tear, just wear) -- which also goes for the 3 BMW's we had. The BMW dealer said to us that BMW's are higher performance machines and they are built to outperform their competition at the cost of needing to be fiddled with, adjusted and tweaked more than the other cars that have lower tolerances and so forth.

This proved true with Audis too -- even as they got better and better in terms of reliability. My experience is just another data point: German Cars, Japanese Cars and I assume [hope] American Cars are all reliable (getting stranded in the wrong part of town just doesn't happen in a modern car like we're talking about.) What little disagreement we have or may have is that the German Cars seem to require "lots of little adjustments" to keep them feeling young -- the Japanese Cars, on the other hand, "feel" (at 30,000 miles in the case of my wife's Infiniti and at 20,000 miles in the case of my Acura) unfazed by the passage of so many miles.

I'd take an S4 over virtually any of the cars in this class -- if money wasn't an object. Of course an S6 would be, for me, even better. I had an A8 upgraded at the dealer to an S8 suspension that I had them order from Germany -- now that was very nice. Today, however, I'd still prefer the S6 over the S8 even if I were spending "other people's money." The S4 and especially the S6 seem to be great "middle sized" vehicles -- and both are fun to drive. I may have shared this before, but my 1995 S6 remains my favorite car of all times -- not the BEST car I ever had, just the one that recalls the fondest of fond memories.

sweendogy · July 2012

Rob2, just because Acura dropped a v6 into the tsx doesn't make it Ellps- first of all they sell less then 10% of all v6 tsxs. Second doesn't the accord offer a v6?

m6user · July 2012

"Second doesn't the accord offer a v6?"

So does the Altima....what difference does that make?

sweendogy · July 2012

"By offering it with a V6 in North America (it's not offered that way in the other markets) was a way to bring it up to ELLP standards although the 4 offers sufficient engine and chassis performance."

There you go

graphicguy · August 2012

Mark.....you and I pretty much are violently agreeing.

Audi, Acura, Mercedes (every once in awhile) and now BMW...all offer 4 cyl motors in their ELLPS.

I test drove an A5. Frankly, that's a mighty nice car. Matter of fact, even though it's down on HP vs BMW's new N20 motor, I'd still prefer it over a new 328i.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around being able to hit the $50K mark with the 328i and a 4 cyl (optioned up). Personally, there are still plenty of new '11 328i cars on the market (BMW cranked production on the '11s knowing the '12s would be initially only a trickle coming out of the factory). I'd jump on one of those with the 6 cyl....save me some money and get something I consider to be superior to the newer model.

I know it's next to impossible to get a '12 335i (although you can find old body style coupes on lots, still). And, I don't think they only started producing the '13 335i.

GF's S4 is a Premium Plus. Seems loaded up to me. What does the Prestige net you?

I don't think an A4 can be optioned up to $50K like the 328i, can it?

As you're aware, all loaded up, I think the TL SH AWD Tech is low-mid $40s. I thought you could get a loaded A4 quatro for about the same price?

Either way, you have a very nice car which would be a pleasure to drive for the next 10 years, if you so choose.

markcincinnati · August 2012

An Audi A4 2.0T Prestige can be cranked up MSRP-wise to more than $50K.

An Acura TL SH-AWD Advance (not Tech) plus a la carte options like splash guards and back-up sensors is north of $47K MSRP.

The Prestige vs the Advance offers similar content if not similar engine transmission set ups.

The way the '12 Acura TL is configured however -- it feels more like the Audi A6 version C6 (the last model before the current body style of the A6.)

The BMW 328/AWD ('13) is easy to zoom past $50K, too.

The SH-AWD (aka torque vectoring) masks the porkiness of the TL, and the 19" wheels and "sport tuned" suspension yield a TL that is more like an A4-SLine or S4 "lite" -- the A4 currently only offers the "sport differential" on the highest buck flavors which makes the TL the bargain of the bunch (and still an ugly duckling.)

I priced out a new X1 and even got that to go north of $50K (and that was with the 4cyclinder).

There's a phrase I have grown up with: "you can pay too little, but you really won't pay too much -- if you get what you want, rather than settling."

Oddly, with the TL at $547 per month, I feel a bit like Goldilocks, "It's just right." I can say this with a straight face since the '09 A4 2.0T Prestige w/sport and ADS was about $120 more per month than the TL.

Don't confuse my rationalization as anything but "driving it the way I lived -- at the time I entered into the transaction." I was looking for something that I could live with, feel safe and comfortable with and that had decent performance -- AND was a prudent choice during a crappy economy.

Still, however, I think 2014 can't come soon enough (for Acrua at least.) The company seems adrift -- even after the Avenger's movie was supposed to show us that Tony Stark used to drive Audis and now he drives Acura's.

Pull the other one.

billyperksii · August 2012

Mark-What are the signs of a warped rotor?
Is it the vibration on hard stops?
I think mines are warped but I just wanted to make sure.
The dealer wants $220 (this is an online discount), the normal is $320.
Does that sound correct?

robr2 · August 2012

Rob2, just because Acura dropped a v6 into the tsx doesn't make it Ellps- first of all they sell less then 10% of all v6 tsxs. Second doesn't the accord offer a v6?

My point is that the consumers in this market slice have typically sneered at anything that didn't offer a 6.

Now that the great propellered one has deemed 4's worthy in the American market, perhaps that requirement will disappear.

graphicguy · August 2012

billy...not Mark. But, what you describe sounds like warped rotors to me. They can usually turn the rotors once. So, ask them to do that, first.

graphicguy · August 2012

Mark....I'm not a lessee/payment buyer. So, the monthly payments have no relevance on my end. But, from what I understand, BMW subsidizes their leases pretty heavily. So, that's one way of allaying their cost.

I also didn't know you could get an A4 into the $50K range. New lesson learned. Personally, if I were going to option out an A4 into that price range, I'd go ahead and move right on into an S4.

Speaking of 4 cyl lux/performance cars, I just read a C&D article stating that Audi is upgrading their current 2.0 engine. Expect it to come in at around that 240 HP mark (not sure about ft/lb ratings) in the A4.

sweendogy · August 2012

But even thou the tsx offers a 4 and a 6 does that make it Ellps? Fwd, slow, no awd option

flightnurse · August 2012

Graphic VW/Audi has had a few cars with a higher HP 2 L turbo (VW GTI-R) 256HP, Audi's TTS 265HP. Aftermarket companies have had a "chip" for the ECU for a while, 250hp from either the 200 or 211hp 2l turbo. Audi/VW really needs to up their HP and torque if they want to stay competitive, like you, I like the A5, but a 2L turbo making 211hp in a 50K car how can Audi justify that.

flightnurse · August 2012

My point is that the consumers in this market slice have typically sneered at anything that didn't offer a 6

Could this just be the big marketing machine making people think that if it doesn't offer a bigger engine then it not a luxury car? It appears that both BMW and MB are slowly ditching their V12 engine in favor of a twin turbo V8.

Ford took a big risk in their F150 by offering their EcoBoost 3.5L twin turbo engine, however, it has been a sales success for them. With CAFE # climbing quickly manufactures are being forced to offer engines they wouldn't have 5 yrs ago. MB offers more cars with Diesels then VW and they sell every one of them. BMW will be bring over a new 3 series oil burner for 2013 and I believe Audi will be doing the same.

The Germans imported the higher end cars because they knew they could sell the and make higher profits. I wish I could buy a 328i with cloth seats, 6 spd manual like the Germans can, I have friends who don't want power windows, and sunroof (this is not an option on the 328i.) but BMW doesn't offer that here...

graphicguy · August 2012

FN...didn't know that about the higher HP/torque of the Audi 2.0. Sounds like they're getting ready to drop one of those in the A4 from what I'm reading.

flightnurse · August 2012

I hope so, like you I like the A5, now with 265hp, and about 280lbs of torque that could be a fun car.

sweendogy · August 2012

Ecoboost f150- good post, ford reported that 42% came in Eco form- should continue to gain traction as people realize they can still haul the boat with a 6

rayainsw · August 2012

'I wish I could buy a 328i with cloth seats, 6 spd manual like the Germans can, I have friends who don't want power windows, and sunroof (this is not an option on the 328i.) but BMW doesn't offer that here...

I just built one on bmwusa.com with an M6 and no sunroof -
cloth, I admit, not available here....
- Ray
Happy with leather, DCT and a hole in the roof...

Build Your Own 2013 328i Sedan
PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
STEPTRONIC automatic transmission $0
Manual Transmission $0
Sport automatic transmission with shift paddles $500
CONVENIENCE OPTIONS
Heated front seats $500
Moonroof $1,050

markcincinnati · August 2012

Warped rotors make a sound and usually a feel. The term that describes the feel is shudder or shuddering. The sound that is made will remind you of the sound you hear when your ABS brakes are activated. The ABS could be said to pulse rapidly -- typically the warp sensation although similar to the pulsing sensation of ABS is somewhat more violent.

The higher the speed the more the shuddering is noticeable and the louder it is too. As the warp becomes more and more severe, the onset of the shuddering is at lower and lower speeds. Mine was seemingly cured by the rotors being resurfaced or turned as it is called.

Some rotors cannot be turned without serious longentivity issues. Acura claims their rotors are thick enough to withstand up to three turns.

The price of the rotors at an Acura dealer (front pair) installed is about $350 for new Acura replacements.

Acura's brakes are fine for most normal driving, but they seem a bit delicate and are not fans of heat (not that any rotors are, it's just that Acura's seem particularly prone to disliking heat.) I can't imagine having this car in the mountains or living with mountains with brakes as intolerant of heat as these.

I have no idea why (other than $) a more durable or heat tolerant rotor is not used, especially when we're probably talking about a relatively small $ number to set the car up with bullet proof brakes.

My wife's BMWs and my most recent Audis had excellent brakes -- I know they're out there.

fedlawman · August 2012

I'm sure most of you have seen this, but I'll post it for posterity.

Warped rotors usually aren't...

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-d- isc-and-other-myths

"every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."

robr2 · August 2012

But even thou the tsx offers a 4 and a 6 does that make it Ellps? Fwd, slow, no awd option

In the proper hands, FWD can perform very well.

Driving a slow car fast is much more fun than driving a fast car fast.

When did AWD become a requirement for a vehicle to be a performance sedan?

robr2 · August 2012

Could this just be the big marketing machine making people think that if it doesn't offer a bigger engine then it not a luxury car?

The marketing machine has said a 6 is mandatory in this category and have not offered a 4 cylinder option for years. They are only doing so now because CAFE is forcing them to and IMHO, the vast majority of the customers won't even care as they don't buy C's, 3's and A4's for performance. They buy them to show their neighbors the label on the trunk without having to disclose the low lease payment.

Further IMHO a $50K 3 series is not longer an ELLPS. At $50K it better be much more than entry level.

fedlawman · August 2012

Agreed.

Personally, I wouldn't spend $50k on any car in this segment. I suspect that the only people who do are lease customers.

flightnurse · August 2012

Further IMHO a $50K 3 series is not longer an ELLPS. At $50K it better be much more than entry level.

I have to agree, when a car reach's 50K that is not entry level, another thing what makes a car an ELLPS?

dino001 · August 2012

True, but all prices crept up. Top line of Ford Focus (compact "economy") is over $28K (MSRP), V6 version of "midsize family" Accord/Camry/Altima goes deep into thirties - so why so suprised that the most expensive brand of ELLPS (or at least one of top 3) goes over $50K?

This category used to "start below" 30K, but it was long time ago. We can fool ourselves into "Oh - I can negotiate a good discount and with a nice trade I don't even have to look at real price", but the truth is today it is hard to find something decent below forty grand... Well, maybe not so hard, but it is not that easy and a lot of compromise is needed (wrong engine, wrong drive, no leather, basic wheels, the list will go on). Look also at those higher (larger/more luxurious) categories. Yes, there will be something there at $50 grand, but it's probably not what anyone shopping there would want. $60K is probably minimum for things to be "nice" and after putting "everything" you'll easily cross seventy ... and back off.

EVERYTHING IS UP - deal with that!

billyperksii · August 2012

I figured more than less-my wife Accord also has similar symtoms.
I am taking her's in tomorrow and probably do the TL next week.
Again- thanks.

markcincinnati · August 2012

Well said!

Everything is up.

Also as technology marches forward isn't it true that these cars depreciate more rapidly than ever? Or isn't it true that those who "need" current technology, efficiency and performance will want to refresh their cars more often?

Doesn't the above (if accurate) suggest that we consumers might want to take the approach that many companies take, which is to elect to have permanent payments on IT infrastructure (both real and virtual) in order to always stay current?

Car companies rely on a consumer that will refresh his car every 36 months to 39 months -- and the most practical way to justify this is to "rent" cars much in the same way technology is rented (or subscribed to?)

In my office building is my tech firm and a CPA firm, the CPA managing partner says you must either lease a new car and resign yourself to permanent monthly payments or buy a car and keep it a minimum of 10-years (and the 10 year number is the break-even number.)

My consultant friend had a 550 (BMW) and when the lease was up on it, he looked at another Bimmer and -- sit down -- a top o' the line Genesis. At that moment in history, the Genesis lease was $299 per month. His decision Genesis and his thoughts are "if possible" to pay $299 per month "forever" and always have a new or nearly new car.

Sure you can (I did) argue that there is no comparison between a 550 and the Genesis. Well, this guy, far as I can tell, could afford virtually anything without a second thought probably into the low 6-figures. But the depreciation was taking the fun out of owning, so he switched to leasing, then even that wasn't much fun anymore, especially when he swears he has given up "oh so little" to have that new Genesis; well, he has given up the high cost.

I dunno, maybe its the hangover from the Great Recession, maybe its the phase of the moon -- or climate change.

The prices keep going up, that much is certain.

What also is happening is that few companies own airplanes either -- they rent them (and there is at least some argument that would justify buying a jet -- since they are practically rebuilt annually.)

The glut of cars, the economy and people feeling they don't want to drive yesterday's news seems to be pressing "us" to drive younger and younger cars, despite their breath-taking drop in value.

I'll tell you how crazy this is, if you don't think cross shopping a 550 with a Genesis is crazy enough, my commercial banker neighbor went from a V12 Mercedes full sized coupe to a Sonata (again, not for any lack of ability on his part to front the money.)

Maybe he just didn't want to be considered part of the 1%.

Hell it's hot. :confuse:

robr2 · August 2012

the CPA managing partner says you must either lease a new car and resign yourself to permanent monthly payments or buy a car and keep it a minimum of 10-years (and the 10 year number is the break-even number.)

Really? Not a very smart CPA IMHO unless he is looking at leasing from only a business perspective. I don't think very many private owners who cannot take advantage of business tax laws would agree with that.

I always buy - always have. I've never been offered a lease deal that could be better for me than an outright purchase. Now I used to have a co-worker who would always lease because he never wanted to be out of warranty. But he was a high mileage driver and insisted on zero down, 20K miles per year and an extended warranty to 60K. At one time he leased a Jetta for almost $500 a month. And he was fine with that. Heck, he could've financed the whole thing for maybe $40 a month more and owned it outright.

robr2 · August 2012

True, but all prices crept up. Top line of Ford Focus (compact "economy") is over $28K (MSRP), V6 version of "midsize family" Accord/Camry/Altima goes deep into thirties - so why so suprised that the most expensive brand of ELLPS (or at least one of top 3) goes over $50K?

I guess what I feel is that $50K for a 3 series isn't a great value. But value is a subjective measure where price is an objective measure.

Now I can't see why BMW doesn't produce the 3 series in Spartanburg for North American consumption. If people are willing to fork over $50K for a 3, why not build it here and cut out the Euro penalty? BMW could probably increase gross profit by 20%.

fedlawman · August 2012

10 years ago when this thread was started, the entry-level segment was defined by the E46 3-series, Acura TL, Audi A4, Lexus IS300, and the G35. All of them started at or just below $30,000.

Of course, back then cars still had cassette players and 0-60 in 7 secs was considered quick. This segment has probably seen the biggest gains in performance and technology over the last decade than any other segment.

I suppose that a $10,000 average price hike over a ten year period is reasonable when considered logically, but emotionally it just seems like an invisible line was crossed. $40,000+ just seems like a lot of money to me for a group of relatively ubiquitous cars.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles