Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

pg48477 · March 2004

S60R would probably outperform any car on the list, but it's a bit expensive. I would consider 330 but new model should come out soon. If only TL would come in AWD. I think TL with A-spec would handle as well as 330 performance package, but 5k+installation is to much.

cybersol · March 2004

I find it quite amusing that for 5 pages or so the discussion focused on what the discussion was about. Reminds me so much of meetings meant to talk about other meetings.

I think Pat's list is a good one. One addition in both my opinion and from magazines that compare vehicle in this class would be the Lincoln LS. First of all, Lincoln is obviously meant to be Ford's luxury brand. Secondly, the LS costs between 30-42k in most configurations. Third the car itself definitely has both luxury and performance intentions. By all owner accounts, it performs and handles well, even if I personally would not be interested in a Ford product at this time, so that I have not driven one.

Back to talking about cars... If I were shopping today, taking into account that my priorities are size, performance, price, reliability, and then luxury... these SEDANS would be on my shopping list in this order:

1) Infiniti G35
2) Acura TL
3) BMW 330i
4) everything else

Enjoy, cybersol

qbrozen · March 2004

I said it before, and I'll say it again, i really think this needs to be added.

according to C&D, 0-60 in 6.5 and:
In most track trials, the Lincoln set stellar marks. Although it was wearing all-weather tires, usually thought to be a disadvantage, it outran all but the Benz on the skidpad and topped all in the lane-change test. Very shrewd choices were made in the chassis tuning of this car.

And since the Sport V8 comes in at $40,500 with delivery, the only fault I see with it is the lack of a manual tranny. But I don't see that as a reason to exclude it because some folks prefer an auto and some even require it.

pg48477 · March 2004

LS is no near luxury, if anything it would compete with 5 series GS, RL and E class.

kdshapiro · March 2004

"LS is no near luxury, if anything it would compete with 5 series GS, RL and E class."

Not even close to these. IMO of course. Yes if you measure rear legroom, but all of the above vehicles are a cut above the LS in terms of amenities. The LS has no more luxury than a Mountaineer.

pg48477 · March 2004

You right, I was also referring to size. LS is a to big to be considered near luxury, and not enof luxury and quality to go up to E-class.

pat · March 2004

... nominations for "the list" are no longer being accepted ...

Anyone want to talk about the cars that are on the list?

Acura TSX and TL
Audi A4
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 and maybe I35
Jaguar X-Type
Lexus IS 300 and maybe ES 330
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Saab 9-3 and 9-5
Volvo S60/S60R and maybe S40

qbrozen · March 2004

ummm... yeah... ok... sure... the lincoln has a whopping 3.8 inches in length over the CTS and the CTS even has more rear legroom.

But, regardless, i've grown tired of getting disciplined by the principal. so have at it.

scott1 · March 2004

I went through all of the comparisons of the cars on this list in January while I was trying to decide which car to order. I ended up ordering a CTS with the luxury/sport package and the dvd navigation system. (blue chip exterior, light gray/ebony interior).

I drove the BMW 3 series and liked its driving characteristics, but didn't care for its styling or interior room. The same can be said for the Mercedes C class..I drove a V6 version and while it was a solid quiet riding car, it didn't have the interior space I was looking for.

I very seriously considered the Lexus ES 330, but ultimately decided that while it rode very smooth and quietly, the handling just wasn't there. The fact that it basically looked like a Camry didn't help either.

I had a bad prior ownership experience with a Honda, so did not consider the acura.

The CTS seemed to have exactly what I was looking for. A quiet comfortable ride combined with excellent handling, plenty of interior space in both the back and front seats, and a very refined smooth and powerful engine. The real bonus for me is the styling of the exterior though...the CTS is one fine looking car from any angle, and doesn't look like just another box on wheels.

I checked with my dealer today and he expects my car to be delivered within the next week or so. I'm looking forward to that.

jrock65 · March 2004

Well, here is something that autospies has to say about the next 3. Doesn't really say anything that people didn't know or were speculating already.

http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2742&ca- tegoryId=11

I don't think BMW is going to keep the price of the car same or lower with more standard features. They did really jack up the price of the new 5. We'll see.

fedlawman · March 2004

Took my TSX to a BMWCCA track event yesterday at Pacific Raceways. Perfect weather, beautiful cars, and a terrific experience.

My FWD 4-banger kept up just fine with all those E46 325's. I lapped more than a few inexperienced drivers piloting E46 330's, and even paced a well driven E36 M3 for one complete lap...what a blast! Then I got a 4 lap ride in a '96 Porsche 911 Turbo. Wow!

What else...two 350Z's were out on the track - they sound awesome (nice throaty exhaust) accelerating down the straight-away and through turn 1. Also, one guy had a late model Lotus Esprit, and there were two WRX STi's out there. One of the STi's was in my group and got behind me, seemingly out of nowhere. I waved him past me after exiting turn 9 and he passed me like I was standing still (I was doing about 60)!

Overall, a terrific club and an awesome day of fun at Pacific Raceways!

kahunah · March 2004

Last week on the highway, this guy in a WRX STi drove up behind me and was riding my bumper...for a short time. Fed up with his arrogant behavior, I dropped my '04 TL's stick from 5th to 3rd, hit the gas, and left him in the dust, and I didn't even have to floor it. He finally caught up to me, so I did it to him again (6th to 4th). He never did pass me and I'm sure I ruined his day. I won't say how fast I was going but the TL surprised even me.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

two options here:

1. The driver wasn't playing like you were.
2. The guy didn't know how to use turbos. Your V6 with 238lb-ft of torque on a 3400 lb car really isn't a match for a person who knows how to use the sweet spot of their turbos on a car that sports 300 lbs-ft at 4000 rpm and the car weighs 200 lbs less. In fact, it's a one sided affair.

fedlawman · March 2004

I finally had a chance to watch the race this afternoon (I taped it earlier this morning).

It was a very exciting race, and also great to see a brand new car with little development time (TSX) do so well against the established benchmark (325i).

It was also interesting to note how evenly matched all of the cars in this competition are, even though there is a combination of FWD and RWD, and "luxury" (BMW 325i) vs. "economy" (Nissan Sentra).

Which begs the question - if RWD vs. FWD doesn't matter at Sebring, why do so many "enthusiasts" think it makes a difference on I-90?

jmess · March 2004

3. Could be another iteration of the old rope a dope game. Let some dope charge ahead and get nailed by the cop before you get there. Pretty easy to play, just find somebody with a new car and act arrogant, then see if they reciprocate.

The best place to prove a point with your right foot is at a race track.

kahunah · March 2004

...what it's like to have some jackass ride your bumper.

kahunah · March 2004

Oh, he was playing all right. I expected him to outrun me. It just didn't happen. As for the one-sided thing, you severely underestimate the capability of the TL. In fact, a TL owner on another discussion board had his 6-speed Dynoed and it registered 282hp, not 270hp. Could it be that the WRX is overrated and the TL, underrated?

jmess · March 2004

It's like somebody is behind you, so what. You really have several choices: you can ignore them and listen to the nice sterio, you can slow down so they get tired and pass you, you can take the next exit/turn, or you can floor it in an attempt to teach the arrogant so and so a lesson with your car.

chrisboth · March 2004

"Oh, he was playing all right. I expected him to outrun me. It just didn't happen. As for the one-sided thing, you severely underestimate the capability of the TL. In fact, a TL owner on another discussion board had his 6-speed Dynoed and it registered 282hp, not 270hp. Could it be that the WRX is overrated and the TL, underrated? "

How does one measure the hp at the crank? IS there a special dyno for this is or did the TL owner do some funky math to get from the wheels to the crank? My guess is the math involved to make the 282 leap is rather fuzzy at best. The TL is one great value if you can stomach the wheel jerking from your hand once in a while but it is not STI beater.

If the STI was between 4500 and 7000 the whole time you would have seen nothing but fumes. The power band of the TL is quite evident in the 50-120 stats and 0-100.. I suggest you take a look at the STI stats for those metrics before you get too enthusiastic about the less than torque ridden 3.2.

"Which begs the question - if RWD vs. FWD doesn't matter at Sebring, why do so many "enthusiasts" think it makes a difference on I-90? "

This explains much - I suggest anyone questioning RWD in context of freeway driving actually drive a decent RWD car on some back roads. IF someone thinks they are going to enjoy - let alone accept the seemingly foreign concept of throttle induced overteer on the highway, I imagine they will be out of the genepool soon enough.

The oversteer I paid 35k for is never enjoyed on a highway - it's enjoyed on the hairpins of an open field with a two lane country road with 10 foot tall cows and fog smoked expanses and no one in sight....and carefully pressing the throttle just enough, with just enough feedback to push the weight back to the rear wheels just as that very power causes them, with buttery smooth finesse, to slide into the perfect exit angle AND keep traction where wide open throttle can push your back into the leather.

Unless you've actually experienced this you will keep wondering!

dhanley · March 2004

This was gone over several times--SCCA adds balast to cars to make them competitive, and each brand has a minimum weight. It's designed so as to make the drive the issue, not the vehicle.

That being said, i would look at a FWD car next ( i like the new 9-3 ), since i'm willing to sacrifice soem handling for other attributes, but i wouldn't feel the need to fool myself into thinking that wasn't doing so.

dave

chrisboth · March 2004

"That being said, i would look at a FWD car next ( i like the new 9-3 ), since i'm willing to sacrifice soem handling for other attributes, but i wouldn't feel the need to fool myself into thinking that wasn't doing so. "

There are some reasonable folks out there in this world! There is nothing wrong with FWD and for most it will serve it's purpose. At least you understand that works great and suitable dont mean better....many struggle here.

fedlawman · March 2004

Chris - I never denied that driving a RWD car wasn't satisfying (I own a Miata, after all), I just said that RWD has no significant performance advantage over a properly driven FWD car.

dhanley - All else being equal (tires, power:weight, etc.) a RWD car and FWD car, if properly driven, will yield similar lap times. The technique is a little different, but the end result is the same.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

BMW's so conerned with brand image, the 1 may not get released in the US without a 6:

http://thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6967

BMW 1-Series Stuck?

One thing's for sure: BMW is not planning on bringing its 1-Series to the U.S. anytime soon. Reports published in recent days by Detroit trade papers say that the company will either kill the U.S. 1-Series project or delay it significantly based on comments made by Tom Purves, CEO of BMW North America. Purves reportedly says that the case for bringing the smallest of BMW-badged vehicles to America is still being made and the company is deciding currently which iteration(s) - coupe, hatch, or convertible - it would bring here. He also reportedly says that the company's in-line four engines would not gel with the widely-held BMW performance image in the United States, so a 1-Series powered by an in-line six is likely, if the vehicle ever shows up here. -Jack Gilbert

chrisboth · March 2004

A weak 4 cylinder could kill an image. Didn't the 318 snub asss already kill them back in 90's?

blueguydotcom · March 2004

Sorry but there's no way you're gonna convince me in a TL sporting a low torque Honda engine (like my low torque BMW engine) stands a chance against a turbo 2.5 Scoobie engine. Lighter, more torque, broader range.

I stand by my first two options and concur the third option may have been he wanted you to be the point man. I do it all the time. Let someone lead the charge by a good 1/5-1/4 of a mile and I'll keep my eyes peeled for anyone blasting onto the freeway with lights blazing.

The TL's a fantastic car. I attended a preview showing the other day for an upcoming Audi and among the other vehicles were the S60, E class, TL and 530i. I'd pick the TL over all of them and twice on Sunday. In fact I did continue to choose the TL even once they'd raised the price to 40k. I really do respect the car inside and out but it's not a barn burner like a STi.

sweetc230 · March 2004

Could you put this discussion back on the C-Class discussion list? (Be that the C is definitely in this category)
THANKS!

kahunah · March 2004

blueguydotcom, I more or less agree with you. Like I said, I fully expected the STi to overtake me...he just couldn't. I'm chalking it up to his limited driving skills and having lost his nerve. Believe me when I say, he was trying to catch me.

sweetc230 · March 2004

pat · March 2004

blueguydotcom · March 2004

Nothing worse than seeing someone with a performance car and no idea how to extract that performance.

gpwatfrd · March 2004

Sometimes it is not that the person does not know how to use his/her vehicle to it's full potential but they may not be willing to risk their life like some crazy kid would.

When I was a teenager, I was willing to take more chances when driving my car than I do now...

Why? I usually did not considered the consequences and I had far less to lose.

buddhabman · March 2004

When we were looking at wagons last year we looked at one. Once we saw the price with options the looking stopped. Curious on people impression on the drive.

chrisboth · March 2004

Yes my soon to be mother in law has one. I'd rather have a v-6 passat 5sp. it's quiet and fairly nice interior but very low on the mercedes quality scale and not to big not to mention the fact it just looks like a baby S class. It's ok but - so is the 28k passat for that matter. The engine isn't bad but it doenn't beg to be pushed like a G that for shore.

dhanley · March 2004

I drove one at the GM autoshow-on-the-road. They had a loopy test track, and a lot of cars to take out on it.

The c320 really handled better than i expected and was very refined. It had a bit more non-melodious engine noise than i expected; i was surprised by that. It was nice, but it was also a 45K car.

The CTS was there too. It was nice, but a bit too isolated for me. I like quiet, but i want to feel the road and hear the engine rev. Somehow, the interior just seemed to whisper chevrolet. It seemed spacious inside, which probably appeals to other more than it does to me. But if you like the interior and isolation, this is probably a really good car.

Drove the 9-5 aero, that was probably my favorite, i really like the looks, interior, the actual out the door price ( they have $6000 in rebates on it now and sell at invoice(??) ) and i love the engine. But it didn't handle as well as the cts or the c320.

The 9-3 was there but it was the base 9-3 linear and didn't impress, mostly due to the interior. The engine needed more power, but the handling was really quite good. it tracked well and had good feedback. I recently sat in a 9-3 convertable at the autoshow later and thought that the interior in it was really nice, so maybe it's improved.

Also saw the s40 at the autoshow, and the interior really looked cheap to me, and there were several broken parts inside, which i guess could have been due to it's being a prototype and suffering autoshow abuse. But based on the numbers this is a really good car, so i would look at it again.

I drove an x-type 3.0. The car looks really good, i thought, and the interior is very attractive, but again there were 3 demos at the dealer and 2 had broken parts inside ( one had the cell phone cover broken by the dealership owner ). All the driving controls felt too light to me, and the engine despite its increased HP felt weak at low RPM's--i didn't feel that i could pass on the highway without dropping out of fifth, but i thought it sounded great when i revved it up. I didn't feel that i got a lot of steering feedback but it was also impressively quiet on the highway. The door sill was really high and the back doors only opened 45 degrees so it was hard for me to get in the back.

I drove a new 325i and it's good, but i couldn't help but feel that it's been somewhat lexiified. The shifter had vaguer detents and the engine noise and steering effort were dialed down. I might have liked it a lot more if it had the sport package. I don't like the newer bmw designs, and i look askance at the increasing complexity of these cars.

I drove a g35, too, it certainly had a lot of power, and had pretty good feedback. I was mostly turned off by the interior which i felt was pretty cheap and the amount of tire noise that got into the interior ( too much for my tastes ). Also, my friend who has one reports really poor MPG.

Oh, test drove the is300 as well. I thought it looked ( WARNING: personal taste issue ) tacky inside, and was too consistently noisy due to road noise. Also, the interior didn't fit my frame very well. I thought several cars felt better handling around town.

Drove a last-gen a4 1.8T. Overall thought it felt very composed and had a nice interior, but it definitely needed more engine. Also, a friend with a passat has had a dismal reliability experience. But if i was leasing it from a subservient dealer i would probably feel ok about it.

The sporty acuras i've been in (cl-s, integra,RSX) i've had a hard time getting comfortable in, so i haven't even bothered to test drive them. I haven't looked at the new tl-s.

There was nothing that made me feel that i need to go out and trade my 328i, but i want to test a 9-3 arc if i happen to be near a dealer with some free time. I almost hope i hate it so i don't feel the urge to waste money on a car swap.

dave

buddhabman · March 2004

Sounds like the C320 drives pretty nice, albeit $$$$$ That's great that you have had the chance for so many drives.

I have an Aero wagon, and as much as I like the car, it does need some stiffer springs and stiffer rear sway bar to help the handles. It tracks well but rough stuff in the canyons makes it hit the bump stops and there is more roll. Great brakes, and isn't it fast, 0-60 is alright but I tell you people 60-120 in an Aero is something else. I wish they would bump up the power in the 9-5 Aero. All the Saab tuners have EMP's to take it to 280-300HP.

I think the 9-3 Aero is a sweet looking car. If they bumped it to 250/250 it would be killer.

dhanley · March 2004

Agree. The c320 was nice but seemed expensive to me for what it was--solid, quiet, ok handling but not really extraordinary, while having no glaring flaws.

I guess i didn't realize the price of the CTS i drove. I want to the caddy website and i see that was probably a $43K car ( 3.6L, xenons, upgraded sterio, sunroof ). But i suppose there will be many thousands off at some point.

The 9-5 was as you describe--swayed more than i liked, and understeer was very easy to provoke; I didn't feel secure pushing it in turns. It's acceleration was so-so 0-30 then after that, really impressive. To be blunt, i thought it was a very well-thought out car suffering from an old chassis; it could have used more suspension travel and structural ridgidity.

I expect the 9-3 areo will be 250hp beofre long, the upcoming 9-3 hatch is supposed to get 250hp out of the same motor with direct injection. You can already get a chip for that HP level, but i shy away from mods and prefer to get the power stock.

kahunah · March 2004

Any thoughts on the new TL?

dhanley · March 2004

Seems like an awful lot of car for 33K. I'd be dumb if i didn't test one before purchasing. I can't imagine it not selling well with its power, features, and price. It even has good EPA numbers and impressive safety scores. But i never even sat inside one so i have no constructive comments. I'm trying to make it a new policy to consider if i really have something to say before saying something. ( red green show, anyone?

chrisboth · March 2004

I hear the kia spectra is on sale now..

fedlawman · March 2004

danny1878 · March 2004

So much for a RWD :-)

bxd20 · March 2004

Nice shot of the TSX being lapped by the 3's. For the second time. ;-)

Dhanley: Did the CTS have the sport package, or just luxury? Suspension differences plus 17" wheels make a big difference between the two. Although it is still somewhat isolated and "roomy" inside. At 6'2" I like that feeling personally, I'm more into the 5 series/A6/CTS/TL size than TSX/3/A4 even if the handling is number.

chrisboth · March 2004

Where are the G's for that pic...they must be signing autographs already! Oh wait maybe they dont let G's out there with 318's and 2.0 litre acuras.

dhanley · March 2004

I think it had 16 inch rims so it was just luxury. I certianly desire some degree of isolation. The CTS i drove just had too much for my tastes. They probably chose the softer car intentionally for the typical driver.

I'm only 5'11 but because of my build and how i sit a lot of cars don't have enough headroom for me. Even the cl-s puts me into a posture i don't care to maintain. My gripe with many modern seats is they seem either designed for the widening american population, or a person with narrow shoulders.

dave

buddhabman · March 2004

The Tri-Point Mazda team out of Canoga Park, CA is another FWD power. There 2.0L Mazda 323 Aka MP3 or now 3 is FWD and it won alot. I beleive it finished second in 2003 to the BMW 328 team. But not bad for a team with less than 3 years on the circuit and way less factory support.

RWD, AWD, FWD Whatever. At our level as enthusiasts it's all about the driver. As nice as the Infiniti and BMW's are to drive the Audi or TL can give a similar feel on a canyon road. Beleive me most of y'all won't be sliding your tail around on any canyon roads, you will be taking the same safe line of a FWD car. You can drift if you wish, and as cool as that feeling is, it also makes you pucker for a moment so most people don't do it.

blueguydotcom · March 2004

As someone who owns a Protege I gotta say the handling's pretty darn good. My car needs the strut tower and I'd prefer 17s over my skimpy 16 inch alloys but it's lightyears beyond the civic, jetta, etc.

The big problem with that car: no guts under the hood.

pg48477 · March 2004

Touring series proven again and again that RWD does not have an advantage even on the race track. FWD can't handle high HP and torque, but in entry level luxury it's not an issue.

chrisboth · March 2004

"FWD can't handle high HP and torque, but in entry level luxury it's not an issue. " \

? This level has 270 base HP for that car. It surpassed IMO the threshold at 220hp. In the next 2 years the entry lux cars will have 300hp to even compete - new 3 sure will and possibly the 05 G sedan..or has this been quashed yet?

chrisboth · March 2004

Also some race track certainly favor FWD cars and some FWD cars have no understeer since they are so finely and hard tuned and they can even get oversteer in some setups cant they?

What most suggest is that the balance from a RWD setup is superior for street cars and that the fun one has while playing with oversteer in the twisties is way more fun than getting torque feedback in your steering. I would prob take an RSX over the 3 in that race..great car.

fedlawman · March 2004

Understeer and oversteer are both a "loss of control."

On the track or on the street, neither one is a good thing. The ideal car is neutral handling all the way to the limit.

Yes, it may be fun to play with throttle induced oversteer, and perhaps drift your car through a corner, but if you're doing this on public roads, I hope you've driven the road 1000 times, walked it right before you drive to check for new hazards such as gravel, potholes, debris, etc. that weren't there before, and block off the road at both ends to prevent another car from coming around a corner from the other direction while your coming off an apex and tracking out.

Your fantasy is nice and I'm sure you enjoy occasionally inducing the back end of your G to "get a little loose" and rotate towards some imagined apex (who doesn't?), but that's hardly a defining RWD "sport sedan" moment. I can (and do) enjoy the same effect in my FWD Honda.

Don't misunderstand me, I understand where you're coming from. From your last post, I can see that you understand me too. My response is mostly directed towards those people that continually spout the superiority of RWD over FWD with drivel such as "The front wheels have to steer and drive...it's much for them to handle" or "true sports cars can only be RWD," without understanding the mechanics of car control or vehicle dynamics...it's pure nonsense.

Control your car, drive smoothly, follow the proper line, and you'll go fast and never upset the "balance" of the car, be it a BMW or Acura.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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