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the most expensive brand of ELLPS (or at least one of top 3) goes over $50K?
But why, why not import a lower cost model, instead BMW, MB, Audi will introduce SMALLER cars to bring the price point down. I don't want a 4dr 1 series, I don't want a B Class or A3 sedan...
but the truth is today it is hard to find something decent below forty grand
New or used? If new, and I know some people would disagree, but one can build a nice Chrysler 300C for under 40K. As well as Lexus IS...
Yes, prices do go up, but there has to be a point when "entry" is no longer entry. Is a Nissan Max an ELLPS? Now I think Infiniti got it right, but for some reason it never took off, offer he current G in a price point. The G25 looks JUST like a G37, the leather might not be as nice, but the instrument panel, seats, body all look like the big brother, but the price is not. Not too sure why it never caught on, a nice way to get into the ELLPS...
I do.
The current 3-series and A4 are as big as the 5-series and A6 of a decade ago. A 4-door 128i or A3 for $32,000 is exactly where this segment should be.
This week I had the pleasure of purchasing football equipment (for 2 boys)...my younger boy found gloves he liked; "but it's only $50 dollars".
And then I proceeded..."In my day, $50 dollars could buy you..." :shades:
$50,000? $60,000 even $70,000? It seems to me that even at the higher price points there are several offerings that, for many, only differ in styling -- and sometimes even then the styling isn't all that much of a differentiator.
Here's the thing that I noticed the last time I was visiting our BMW dealer -- there are BMW 7 series cars that shoot way the hell past $100K, yet they are only slightly differentiated from the "cheap ones."
There was a high zoot A8 at the Audi dealer, and there was also an S8 -- now, I would've taken the S8 (if I were just thinking about the car itself); but the A8L W12 with a bunch of "I can't believe the thing has a walk in cooler in the back seat" type options, was way more expensive. Then of course there was the cheapie plain ol' A8 SWB version. They were all very, er, ubiquitous."
Now I used to think I was pretty astute at discerning what I was looking at -- but today I saw a new Passat SEL that must've had some optional glitzy wheels and a beige leather interior (I assume it was real cow, that is). I thought, for a full second, "Nice Audi."
I doubt the Passat was more than $35K -- but it LOOKED expensive (assuming you think Audi's look expensive.)
Nothing about a TSX looks expensive to me -- but what the hell do I know, I bought a 2012 Acura TL (not to imply I think the TL looks expensive, but from the outside it looks less like a Honda than the TSX.)
What do I know?
Drive it like you live. :surprise:
6 years in a row, price hasn't move much - best car for thr money, and prob the new class of the class- $$ has to be a factor here
The leather in the G25 is the same leather as in the G37. The only difference between the two is the smaller engine and the unavailability of several options in the G25 like no NAV, etc. The reason it didn't sell IMO is the same reasons I was disappointed in it.
1. Couldn't get NAV or a few other bells and whistles as options even.
2. For 100 less horses, I believe people thought you should get a lot better mpg on regular gas too.
3. It was only priced about $3000 less than the G37 and they are always discounting the G37 pretty heavy and wouldn't go down that far on the G25. Net effect....they were too close in price for such a drastic difference in performance.
I agree with you guys that Acura has completely LOST ITS WAY. The TL SH-AWD is the exception here. The Acura brakes stink. Our government should mandate that BMW supply brakes to every car on the road.
Prices on these cars have crept up over the years. As you all know, my 2011 328xi is leased (I know its more expensive to lease, but its going to be a damn fun 30 months). $50K for a 4 cyl 3 series is a big pill to swallow. Like many of you have said, $50K is NOT entry level. In my book anyway. I'm quite certain that if I do want to continue to drive sedans in this category when the lease is up on my 3er in 2 years, I'm going to have to go the CPO route. Otherwise I'll have to look at a car that isn't so performance oriented to suite my commuting needs.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
There's a reason the Lexus ES is called a "Japanese Buick". Acura rightly figured that since it couldn't make a better car than the 3 series, they should just go where the money is - in big comfy cars. Fair enough. The TL is a very nice car inside and is great to just drive around town and get stuck in traffic in
But Toyota and Honda are a lot like GM in that there's a hard division between sports and luxury, with only one or two vehicles that bridge that gap. (possibly the Lexus IS and the CTS, Honda has nothing any more since they dropped the RSX)
However, those cars also offer more, MUCH more for that money. More metal (not always a good thing, but at least in absolute terms - it is more), more features, better safety, better fuel economy WITH more power, etc. Some was mandated (tire pressure monitors, traction control systems, gas mileage improvements), some was market-driven (consumer electronics, size). I know some people would actually prefer 2003 325i over 2012 328i, but in all objective metrics, 2012 model is simply a better machine. Same goes for the named Toyotas, Audis and all the rest. If we factor those improvements, the prices are probably not as outrageously higher. The models tend to drift up in size and content over the years and create room for new line (3-series vs. 1-series), so after about three generations it is fair to start making those comparisons (both in term of price and content) with models from other shelf. I think in 10 years, ELLPS will include all those models dismissed today as "not L enough" or "not P enough" and current 3-series/C-class will be favorite "family upscale sedans". :surprise:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I know someone who in the course of 5 cars and 15 years who has gone from a 300M to Lancer with a gradual step down over the years in order to keep the payment in his comfort zone.
I'm thinking this is the real issue, I went over to the G37 leasing questions forum, and was shocked at how much Infiniti is discounting the cars. Also the odd length of the leases, 18 months? Many people are getting leases on a G37S 6 spd MT for just fee's and $299/m Other have been able to get a G37 Journey + Premium package, drive off are fee's and $405/m (this is with tax) for 36 months. Infiniti is giving some incredible buy rates to get these prices..
One can see why the G25 did not sell. But I did read that it will be coming back with a turbo 4, and more equipment for the same price. Should be interesting.
1. BMW - 33%
2. Audi - 21%
3. MB - 14%
Quite a spread and don't know how it is explained by commodity prices and Euro exchange rate as the latter would affect all the German makers somewhat equally.
Now, content could explain away some of the large difference in price creep but I believe all the makers have increased size and content to similar degrees. Comparatively, and with the recent improvements in the C Class it seems like that may be a value. If you like MB.
If you use the Acura TL SH AWD as the baseline at $40K, is it as good or better than a 335i xDrive? An Audi A/S4? Probably not. I would say it trumps a Mercedes C Class 4 matic, though. It has better tech and suspension than a G.
The 3 Series is the measuring stick. If you get all the tech, with leather, nav, power, xDrive, etc. you're going to pay $50K. As hard as it is for me to say, the S4 trumps the 335i xDrive, too. So, to get that extra nth degree more of everything, you pay more.
Having driven the TL SH AWD, the G and comparing them to the 335i and the S4, you can immediately see where the extra money went.
It's up to the individual with the check book to decide if it's worth it.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
$10,000 is a lot to spend on stuff that adds little to the driving/ownership experience and will probably break in 5 or 6 years.
BMW may also pursue somewhat different strategy in option vs base pricing. I noticed that the start from high forte, ridiculous prices at the beginning of the model life, but over time they tend to add things as no-cost or deeply discounted packages. For example, my 2012 wagon, last year of its line, had leather free already since 2011, there was additional discount on navigation with premium package ($500) and some of those phone integration electronics (bluetooth) were rolled in as no cost, as well. On the other hand, MB pretty much held its C-class options just the same for all that time. A friend of mine notices (he likes them much more than I) that MB-tex (vinyl surface) is actually dominant in stock, whereas almost no BMWs have leatherette on dealer's lots. I suspect MB did some creative content shuffling to hold the line on base.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Funny, I exactly got the latter (a little less than $48K MSRP, but not far) and would never consider the former. Absolutely not point for me to get car like BMW with leatherette.
When I look at cars, I ignore strippers and their prices. If I can't afford good stuff, I can't afford the car. Would rather buy loaded model of lower prominence than bottom of line something "aspirational".
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Our 2007 X3 had leatherette. I had no problems with it.
The auto mfrs. definitely toy around with standard features. Sunroofs were standard starting in '04 3 series. All of the sudden in (I think) in 2010 sunroof is a $1000 option or part of the premium package. Back in '07, the panorama sunroof was standard on my wife's X3, but an option on my Dad's X5.
My 2011 has the no cost Value Package that gave me standard heated seats, leather, 17" wheels, & an iPod/USB ASAP. My slushbox was a no cost option too.
Fedlawman - I agree with both your line of thinking as well as dino001's. My wife's former 2007 X3 had 4 options, Steptronic (nc), Montego blue metallic paint, heated front seats, Bluetooth, & rear privacy glass & we loved it.
My 2011 328xi has leather, navigation,metallic paint, premium package, Xenon lights...
I'd have to price a stripper out, but I still think it will be too rich for my blood.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
IMHO, this comes from the falling cost of electronics as a whole.
It's $37,395 for a base 328i with leatherette and absolutely nothing else. 2.0, RWD, choice of manual or auto.
I think the sales person at the dealership would scratch his head if you came in looking for that.
One could:
get the TSX with leather standard and the $1K manual option and save $5K
or
get the A4 with leather and Quattro and save $4K
or
get the C250 with auto and save $500
or
get the G25 with auto and leather and save $3K
or
get the IS250 with auto and leather and save $1500.
Some folks might be happy with the base BMW setup as what I consider a driver's car and others may want a couple of other features and a few extra bucks in their pocket knowing they weren't going to be driving 9/10ths anyway.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I think a comparable 2012 model would be under $46K (of course, you get a turbo-4, instead of a 6-cylinder)..
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My 328i and all of the 328i for 2010 and 2011 came with the value package at no cost, leather (any color), Ipod connector. This made the Premium package costing $1750. I know for 2012 the Wagon and Coupe's had no charge leather too. With the price of these cars going up, some options should be standard. With the Wagon, sunroof is standard. Not too sure for 2013.
The car I got was a Melbourne Red 335i Sport Line four-door with the 8-speed autobox and a black leather interior. The car didn’t have a Monroney sticker and I didn’t ask the price but
I figure it should sticker around $50K.
Except for the color, I thought it was a really good-looking BMW. Although the hood has an odd shape in some photograph it looks fine in the metal. The current BMW reds lack the vibrancy of the old Imola Red and the black made the inside a bit dour IMO. I thought the othe cars on hand in gray or blue were more attractive. The interior was quite roomy for a 3er, pretty close to the size of my E39 Five Series.
I thought the interior styling was too cluttered and I was a bit taken aback by the many options you had to sort thru for suspension, transmission and other settings. It would take at least a couple of weeks to learn all the settings and controls on this car.
The prescribed test route was a short 8 mile circuit on some of the best maintained tertiary two-lanes in the NH Seacoast which is to say it wasn’t much of a test of ride qualities but from what I could tell the car rode very smoothly, giving no hint of being on all-season run-flat tires of very low profiles.
There’s been a lot of concern about the lack of feel from the steering in the new (F10) Fivers. I’m happy to report that the steering on the 335i is just as communicative as you would expect on a Bimmer. The transmission can be manually shifted readily and is well suited to a fast drive on back roads. Brakes and handling were excellent and the stop-start system was almost invisible. You can fell the restart but there’s no unpleasant bump or shudder.
Overall I think the F30 is an excellent all-round car that should be a very hard target for Cadillac, Audi or anyone else to surpass. I certainly would shop it but I do have some reservations. I’ve never driven any car rated at 300HP but I assumed if I did it would be scary-fast. Don’t get me wrong, the turbo-Bimmer is a fast car and will cover ground in a huge hurry but my old 5 liter Mustang (200HP) felt faster when you dropped the hammer to take off from a standstill but then the ‘Stang was very light and had no traction control.
I also thought the ’013 335i lacks the “whee” factor of my E46 Cabrio, it handles very well but just feels heavier and less tossable and less grippy than the old E46.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I had a TSX, liked it, ditched it after 2 1/2 years for my 2011 328xi. Acura's version of electric power steering wasn't for me.
The A4 is a really nice vehicle, but Audi/VW long term durability scares me.
The C250 seems like a nice car too. I haven't driven one, but right now MB only sells 4Matic C300's with a lackluster V6 instead of the cool, new Turbo 4.
If I were to go with a G, it'd be "go big or go home" G37X. Xenon lights aren't available on the G25X either. I haven't read positive things about Nissan's small V6 as far as performance goes.
I drove an IS250 AWD when it 1st came out in 2006. It had absolutely ZERO pickup. The 4cyl in my former TSX felt better by the seat of my pants.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Now everything you listed as cons on all the vehicles are totally subjective things.
IMHO, the $36K for the 325i without the things you mentioned in my eyes just isn't a value. I mean $36K for leatherette, no fancy electronics, not heated seat, no premium pack just doesn't work for ME.
If anything, I'd probably go for the A4 with leather and Quattro and put some of the saved $4K into better tires and suspension. I'm not afraid of Audi reliability as I've had a great experience with my VW.
Besides you would probably lease - long term reliability shouldn't be a concern.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I know all about BMW vs. Acura relative to driving dynamics and feel. (As evidence, we are paying $16k more for an X5D than the MDX would have cost). HOWEVER, if budget was an issue and I was lamenting ELLPS creeping towards and above the $50k price point, the current deals on the Acura TL's would be compelling to me.
The dealer (Pohanka in VA) is currently offering $9,000 off on a TL-AWD Tech for a net price of $34,900. Was the TL as satisfying to drive as the RWD 335is Coupe that I drove when we were X5D shopping?? No, but I suspect it would be just as satisfying, if not more so than a 2013 328ix. And the price is compelling - a mere $25k less than 335is sticker
As a side note, I referred a buddy to a BMW dealer in Baltimore that had a brand new 2011 535i 6-speed manual on their lot for 12 months. Sport package and lots of other options put the sticker at $59,000+. I told him to hand he dealer a check for $45,000 and dare him to rip it up. He got it for $45,500.
1985 Mercedes 190E - $23,730
1995 Mercedes C220 - $32,000
Increase = 34.9%
1985 BMW 325e - $21,700.
1995 BMW 325i - $34,120.
Increase = 57.2%
1985 Nissan Maxima SE - $13,699
1995 Nissan Maxima SE - $22,989
Increase = 67.8%
1985 Honda Accord LX - $10,824
1995 Honda Accord LX - $18,880
Increase = 74.4%
1985 Porsche 911 Coupe - $31,950
1995 Porsche 911 Coupe - $63,055
Increase 97.4%
A few takeaways from this analysis:
(1) It's pretty amazing how modestly prices have gone up in the 17 years since 1995. If they had continued to climb at the 1985-1995 pace, a BMW 328i would now have a base price of $73,600 and a 911 Coupe would be a mere $200,400.
(2) Back in the "old days", even a bottom of the line BMW or Mercedes was a relatively rare symbol of status, costing over twice as much as a Honda Accord or 70% more than a ELLPS Maxima. When I bought a 1995 Maxima SE, the 325i was over 50% more. Today, the base price of a 328i is only $5,000 more than the base price of a 325i 17 years ago. And only a similar amount more than a Maxima.
Draw your own conclusions as to what this means relative to ELLPS today. Frankly, I think a lot of people today are stretching to get themselves into a BMW, Audi or Mercedes when, back in 1985, or even 1995, they would have not even considered it and had to "settle" for a Honda Accord or maybe Nissan Maxima. I'm not so sure that was a bad thing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I've never driven a TL SH-AWD, but know its got some chops from what I've read. What'd you think of the brakes compared to the BMW? I don't track or race my car, just looking for a little fun on my 6 day/week commute like I did with my 2001 Prelude Type SH for the 1st 9 years of its life. I wasn't "getting it" from the 2010 TSX I inherited from my wife (lifeless electric power steering, crummy brakes). I love my 2011 328xi. I just don't know if the new F30 328xi will be worth it so sparsely equipped as I "built" last night. Especially when a TL SH-AWD Tech comes loaded for a similar sticker. I've still got 2 years of research to decide about my next purchase.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
But I still think the biggest difference over the past 2-3 decades in what we now label the ELPPS segment is that BMW and Mercedes are now considered "affordable" by a much larger percentage of the population because of their conscious decision to employ a product mix and pricing strategy that competes for this market. Perhaps partly in response or retaliation for Lexus, Infiniti and Acura moving into their previously unchallenged luxury territory.
Anecdotal example: Back in about 1969, I had a friend whose aunt drove a new Mercedes. She would pick us up from grade school 2-3 days a week. People used to stop and stare at the car - and be even more shocked when they saw a woman driving it. At one point, she was interviewed by the local newspaper and asked how it felt to be the only verified single female that owned a Mercedes in a city of 100,000. She worked for Navy Intelligence, spent a lot of time in Europe and got the Mercedes through a diplomatic/military purchase program at a huge discount, or so she said.
Today, I'd make a bet that if I drove 15 miles to the nearest Wal Mart, I'd find at least a dozen Mercedes and BMW's in the lot. Hell, I think you can buy a Mercedes at Costco.
Regarding the TL vs. BMW, my own 2004 TL 6-speed has Brembo brakes standard. I believe the 2012 TL SH-AWD 6-speed manual does as well. In my car, they are great, and way, way better than the crappy brakes on our MDX or the automatic TL's I was given as service loaners. My 2004 is FWD, so it has all of those performance pitfalls, but is still a reasonably fun car.
I would never seriously consider or recommend an automatic or FWD TL over a BMW. The 6-speed manual TL-SHAWD might be worth a test drive for you to make the call yourself. Interestingly, I was NOT very favorably impressed with 2011/2012 535i 6-speed manuals. I wasn't seriously in the market, but when we were shopping for the X5, was being tempted by some great deals. But after a few test drives, I concluded that the new 5 series felt heavy and a bit dull compared to the older models or the (outgoing) 3 series.
Mortgage rates were in the 9-10% range back in the late eighties. I remember refinancing in 1992 to 7.5%, down from 9.5%. If you consider the "hyper" inflation of the late 70s and early 80s(I can actually remember getting pay raises of over 10% several of those years) car prices may have been catching up somewhat. I believe they lag inflation by a couple of years as manufactures try to hold the line on prices until profit pressures become too great to resist.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Inflation is the killer...
$38,500 in 2003 is $48,000 now
If you use any online inflation calculators you can see similar results:
http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm/
You can't print over a trillion dollars without getting hit with inflation...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I remember in 1993 looking at the E320 Convertible and thinking 80K is a lot of money.... Today you can get a E350 convertible for the came amount of money.
Today an entry level C250 sedan is 35K (base) and will balloon to 43K with a couple of options. My 1987 E190 2.3-16 sportline was $36K new.
Just interesting to see how some cars have faired priced wise over the years.
The new car itch is setting in and its going after the 550 XI but I think I will stick with the TL a couple more years.
Great to hear from you and I bet you are still as feisty as ever! Weren't we going to meet up on some deserted road and have a showdown between your TL-S and my old Maxima SE 5-speed??
So is your TL SH-AWD a stick or an automatic? if it's the latter we can start a new round of digital drag racing with my 2004 TL 6-speed manual. With only 62k miles in 8 years, I'm probably going to keep it for awhile longer and see if I can't sneak another Porsche into my garage next spring.
Welcome back- keep the oldschool cooler body tl- wait until Acura cleans it up.
Any chance the hosts can clean up the messages titles here- no need for 20 names on a header