Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1282283285287288435

Comments

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I wonder if it's just that much more noticeable on the N20 powered 328s.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Which model S60 did you go with? T5, T6 -- I'm sorry, the turbo comment may have been an indicator, but I can't recall if both the T5 and T6 are now (2013) turbos.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Shut down the stability control to save the brakes? How would shutting down this feature save either rotors or pads? OK, now I kind of get how if you push the car so that it "needs" to apply the left rear brake or right front brake or some combination in order to stabilize the car, you might save a bit of wear -- at the cost of reduced stability.

    But, if you are not in any situation that might require such an electronic intervention, why would turning the ESP off be helpful? ABS only comes into play when braking so hard that sliding tires are a possibility, but ABS typically cannot be defeated (it is just always at attention, awaiting to be called upon). I would think ESP causes no brake wear period if it is never engaged.

    Seems like turning it off increases the danger of understeer, oversteer and out of control situations (on dry, wet or snow/ice surfaces alike -- albeit at lower speeds the slicker the surface becomes).

    :confuse:
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    nyc, ivan, andy, kyfdx, et al......I don't think fuel savings with auto on/off via the 3 series were anywhere near 10%. I remember reading somewhere that it amounted to 1% or so. Again, that figure would vary depending on the amount of stop and go driving.

    I don't think anyone would object to the feature. However, it was implemented poorly, causing the entire car to shudder very noticeably on restart. Not very becoming of a $40K-$50K car.

    Both of the ones I drove were 4 cyl cars.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    It's a T5 turbo. I think that's what the T stands for.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    yes, both turbos.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Is the Jaguar XF
    [ now with available 4-cyl - or V6 and AWD for 2013 ]
    seen as part of this group?
    - Ray
    MSRP now as low as $47,805....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    " OK, now I kind of get how if you push the car so that it "needs" to apply the left rear brake or right front brake or some combination in order to stabilize the car, you might save a bit of wear -- at the cost of reduced stability. "

    yeah thats what was told to me about possible reduced wear, on the stability - again i use it in rain and snow- but for everyday driving I like to feel in control my self- this stability control is a great safety feature for sure but growing up we did not have such a feature, so does it increase the danger factor, yes- but I like to live dangerously--
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    "but I like to live dangerously-- "
    Stay in New York or wherever you are from with that mindset.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Sweendogy's a Jersey guy. I think he's quoting Austin Powers.

    "I also like to live dangerously"

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Yeah man- I just do it bc someone who I worked with said the dealer told him to do it to save his pads- again I went thru pads at 20k so did it help, I don't know.
    On the stability side I leave it on in the rain and snow - when it's clear I actually like having the back slide out a bit every now and them- like to be engaged with the car - and not a computer .
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Actually bronx, now new England
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    ESP is one of the (Car and Driver says its the #1) best applications of technology for safety and performance. The possible increase in wear is almost certainly minimal.

    Your ability to turn it on when you think you'll need it is an interesting approach -- to me it seems like saying "I'll only fasten my seat belt when I think I will wreck."

    The value of ESP is probably its most profound in those situations where you can't see or know for certain there is a coefficient of friction issue. Or even when it is not raining or snowing, it is possible to get yourself into an understeering situation or even oversteer before you know it and at that exact moment in time I would doubt someone could react and push the ESP "on" button.

    I'm not too sure you really WANT to live THAT dangerously?!?

    Do you turn off your ABS too? (assuming you had one of the very few cars that allow that anymore as Audis used to allow.)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited August 2012
    Mark thanks for your concern but no need for lectures- I've read the same articles you quote- and like I said before stability control is a great feature but again what did we do without it- my answer is cope with the situation at hand - if my car is a little loose in a turn I have 3 options - break, off gas, on gas - ive been to a number of schools and seem enuf situations to know what to do at a certain time - I also don't drive like an a-hole so I should be able to adapt in most situations. If I loose it it's on me- I know most here love the espn and cvts but for me I like the feeling of driving. ( again in rain and snow, and on roads i dont know I keep it on)- i also buckle up - every time, never know when a guy with an a4 or Tl awd type s sh-awd will t-bone me at a light while he's texting .

    Enjoy the cvt and espn and the computers- But I dont

    Can't turn off the abs - but yes, answer your question yes I like to live "that" dangerously -like my old man with his 79 nova, I drive without espn. 2007 g35, 31k miles and not a curb mark.

    Don't be a dink
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited August 2012
    "and like I said before stability control is a great feature but again what did we do without it- "

    A lot more of us were killed....that's what we did. Stability control is probably the most helpful in an extreme emergency manuever. Just like ABS it helps keep the car under control. If you think you know for sure exactly when the next yahoo is going to run you off the road or pull out in front of you and you need to control your car than you should be a fortune teller.

    Traction control is pretty useful too. What did I do before traction control? I spun my rear wheels all over the place in the snow even with good snow tires.

    It's obvious you think you're Mario Andretti and could also care less if losing control of your car causes someone elses injury or death. And you are telling other's not to be a dink? Look in the mirror my friend.

    BTW, I haven't heard that term used in about thirty years. Maybe it's a regional thing. Kind of thought that went the way of "fairy hooks" if anybody remembers that one.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Back in 2002 I had a 2003 G35 when they were first released.

    I too had the traction/stability turned off in dry weather.

    The car was very well balanced and I would give it a little power to bring the rear end 6-12 inches out. It would always tuck back in and straighten out. You'd really...really have to try hard in order to spin out of control (I never had); it was very predictable and consistent.

    This wasn't a big NHRA burnout...but a small chirp of the tires with the engine revving and I didn't do it at every corner (that was when I was 16...) or near the daycare; just the odd time to remember my youth.

    Probably not the utmost ideal level of safety, but neither was the time I took a call on my mobile phone, reached across to the passenger foot-well to pick something up, fiddled with the radio selection, reached behind me to put a pacifier in the baby's mouth...and took it way past the posted limit on the highway (no baby in the car then). BTW, this didn't occur all in one day but the span of a couple years.

    Sometimes I eat too much red meat...but I wouldn't consider myself reckless :shades:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Shut down the stability control to save the brakes?

    If you don't wear your seat belts it saves the springs in the retractors, too. :blush:
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    R&T did a tech article on start\stop technology in their June issue. [ For some reason, still not posted on their web site. ] they rated 10 systems [ a couple with both automatic and manual transmissions ] and the BMW 328 was the ONLY system that was graded as low as C or D in rating ‘smoothness, predictability, confidence’. And both automatic and manual 328i versions were rated their lowest grades - C = ‘noticeable but acceptable’ or D = ‘distracting’.

    Others rated were Buick, Honda, Infiniti, Kia, M-B, Porsche and Toyota.
    Odd.
    - Ray
    Note – BMW’s system ‘throbs’ . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    m6 - thanks for the post, it reads the same as marks but when you put the word "killed" in it - wow powerful stuff.... so this stability control is very useful-- i got it now-- thanks man--

    Mario Andretti comment-- again - powerful =
    I will never touch that button again...

    dink comment- again you are right.. im going to look in the visor mirrior
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    ray....BMW's stop/start tech seems to follow a trend with them. Like their iDrive, it took 2-3 generations for them to get it right. Same is probably true for their start/stop tech. It will take them 2-3 releases (maybe even model years) to get it right.

    Surprising, given BMW's engineering prowess, and their early adoption of technology in cars.

    No matter, since the feature can be totally defeated, that fixes what was an unnecessary and ill-implemented attempt to increase MPG.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Is start/stop on all 3series cars or just North American cars?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    My bad sweendogy. That's just like me. I live in CT (New England) & work in The Bronx.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Fed...not sure if start/stop is on any other BMW models other than the 3 Series!
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    At least in the Jaguar pantheon, it is "entry level." With the death of the dearly beloved X-type ;) the XF became the poor man's special... But, in size and price, it's really a LPS. IMHO, of course.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Drove my complete commute today - 7 miles with ESP on- think I toped out at 30mph- saw alot of bikers on the local roads- 85 degrees - no rain . The car with ESP drives very similar when it's off - one other thing to note - used my Bluetooth on the ride home, first time since April, asked the wife if she wanted me to pick up dinner, she said no - already made something - with the ESP on I felt safer in making such a call.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...yesterday I took a left turn in front of a black Cadillac CTV coupe. Very mean looking.

    As I passed the driver, I was stunned to see this lady driving it:

    image

    So much for stereotypes...

    :D
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I read someplace that the Auto Stop/Start can be turn off completely by having the BMW dealer updating the the software. Basically the update allows the computer to "remember" the last function of this feature. So if you turned it off when you got into the car and turned the car off, then the computer remember this and the system is turned off when the car is restarted. On a side note my neighbor has 2007 BMW 335i, been having some issues with the A/C, he bought it as a CPO, the car is back in the shop, he has a 2012 328i, the dealer forgot to tell him about the auto stop/start, when he left the dealership with the loaner, he came up a light, waited, the car stopped. At first he wasn't too sure the issue, went back to the dealership with the car where they explained this feature. He doesn't like it... He liked the car overall, but not that feature, I explained about the computer update the dealership can do with it.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Fed, I believe it is on all Euro 3 series, from the 316 to 335d. I believe for 2013 all BMW;s will get it in Europe. Will be interesting to see how this feature will increase MPG on the big 760i's
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Rob the last big CTS commercial I saw had a 30 something female driving the CTS. There is a black CTS-V down the street from me with custom graphic on saying "Barrett-Jackson" on the side. The diver is a middle-age lady, I also found out that she is the wife of the VP of Barrett Jackson the car also have manufacture plates on it. Nice perk... He drives a black on black on black Hummer H2 with manufacture plates.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited August 2012
    Here is one article on the BMW 3 reprogramming for the start/stop from about 5 days ago. It was also on several other car related sites.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/13/bmw-allowing-dealers-to-re-program-start-stop- /
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    You do live dangerously if you apply the "breaks" if your car gets "a little loose in a turn." that is one good way of ending up in the ditch. Just saying...
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN.....of all the positive attributes my BMW possesses, the A/C isn't one of them. It works....but not nearly as well as my former TL or the GF's S4.

    Agree with you....braking hard, in a corner, stability control off? Somebody is swapping ends. Wonder which driving school teaches that technique? :P
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Who said "hard breaking"? - enjoy the computers and auto transmissions you auto enthusiast.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Sween, dont you drive a 5 speed auto tranny G35?
    So what is all the rant about auto tranny?

    Honestly, I wanted the manual TL but I know my wife drives my car ever so often. My plan (if I ever get around to it) is to purchase RSX type S with the stick as a beater car. Hopefully in the 3k to 4k range, then I can probably join your club and rant all day about manuals :)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    My "rant" is with car guys who say the auto is better car- not the guys who get the auto because the wife is driving, I understand some factors restrict certain transactions. I have a g35x - (traded a jetta Gli) and would have gotten stick if it was offered, but Infiniti on awd cars does not, I live in new England, it's a shame which I've mentioned here in forums and have written to Infiniti as well. Could I have bought a 335, a4, Tl or others but for the money it was a no brainer. Closest thing was the TL- and have you seen the face of those ?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It seems that if someone really, really wants a stick shift they wouldn't let a little snow stop them. I've heard so many times that proper snows and traction control let RWD cars compete heads up with an AWD car with all seasons. Now add to that scenario someone that likes to live a little dangerously in the first place and it seems like a pretty lame excuse blaming the car company.

    I grew up in Michigan on stick shifts with RWD with no ESP, traction control or ABS brakes on bias ply tires. Still alive somehow.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny what is interesting is how you turn peoples words around. The "people" you say "car guys who say the auto is better car" no one has stated that, what has been said is, that the newer generation auto have become just as good as cars with manual transmission. Now a true auto enthusiast understand this. There will always be people who will have to have a manual car, and there will always be people who will want an auto. Neither is right or wrong, but for some reason you have made it a point to say, that people who choose an auto is a lessor person for that choice. So why doesn't Infiniti build a G37X with a manual? Is is a lessor car then say a Audi A4 or BMW 328iX ?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Hey M6, my partner is from Flint and he says the same thing, and car's today with traction control and RWD can get around in snow very well, since most of the Car mag's are based in Ann Arbor Michigan, and not all of the long term cars have AWD, they do not seem to have a problem driving in the snow. They just change the tires to some good snow tires and drive....
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Graphic what is interesting is how poor the Germans A/C's are, way back in 1986 I bought a 190E 2.3-16 (wish I had that car today) the A/C was OK living in San Diego. In 1988 I bought a MB 300SDL (for work) and again in San Diego the A/C was ok, but get that car in the Desert (Las Vegas, Phoenix, and or Yuma) and the A/C was not OK... Over the years the Germans have done better, my 330 I don't have the problem as I did with the 300SDL, the 330 can keep me cold all day.. However, the Japanese have always had a good A/C unit in their cars.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Hey Sweeny doesn't your G35 have Traction control (computer), and an Auto ? So how are you enjoying your sports sedan, you auto enthusiast?
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    No excuse. I found the value of the Infiniti a no brainer when compared to anything in its class- I have nav awd and 300hp for 36500- that's what I paid - no other car came close. Who's blaming a car company,? if they has the demand and the "car enthusiasts" asked for it they would build it. Like I said, I have written them to express my thoughts. Michigan, I would def have to ESP on of traveling - I also think modern cars that have snow tires are better then standard slicks, but add snows to awd in Vermont and its a mt lion. Again I don't live dangerously in snow and rain conditions. I know your comment was ment as a diss, but I don't play with my life.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Clown question, bro
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    "I know your comment was ment as a diss, but I don't play with my life. "

    Aren't you the one that said you liked to live a little dangerously? Maybe I read wrong. If so, sorry.

    Doesn't the RWD G37 have over 300hp and nav for even less than $36,500??? Seems like that would have been the real value. Could even have spent the extra money on some great snow tires. ;)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I did say that, but prob should re-read the response in context.

    I think the rwd starts at 42. Tad higher
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Are you kidding? The AWD is $1600 more than the RWD. Pretty much like any other car manufacturer in the world the AWD is more than a RWD or FWD. Why twist things? You're the one that is always touting that you do your research and deal in facts.

    2012 G37 Journey = $37,795
    2012 G37X Base = $39,395
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Title of your post is - stick shift - correct ?
    We were talking about stick vs auto correct-

    the g with the stick is 41500. I do research, you cant get a journey with stick, i also respond to what we we were talking about - talk about doing the twist.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited August 2012
    Sorry, I stand corrected. Didn't know you couldn't get the Journey with a stick shift. Wasn't trying to twist...just a mistake. But you didn't include destination chg($895) so the price is really even more which is $42395.

    However, the Sport model is loaded with equipment that is not found on the G37x so after adding similar equipment like the prem. pkg and nav the MSRP on the G37x is actually $43,745 which is more than the G37 Sport. You may have paid $36,500 but you would have gotten a similar deal on the Sport model.

    Just saying that if you wanted the stick it would have been very close in price and equipment just minus the AWD.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    edited August 2012
    NP that's why I do research- Another thing to add at the time when I bought my g- they cars where structured a bit differently - the stick shifts were very rare and the ones on dealer lots were demos- infact they all got One Sport when the new body came out in 2007. So to say i would of gotten a similar deal is wishful thinking, I needed a car- did the research and was able to hammer out a deal; 31k miles later no probs - I would trade in a second for a 42k g37x stick, or a 2012 335x equiped the same at 42k (not going to happen) I think it's a fantastic value in sedan form

    The destination charge same on all g37s
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    FN...it could be that we've had one of the hottest summers I can remember here in SW OH. But, my 3's A/C struggled with 90+ degree heat. Under that temp, it was fine. GF's S4 A/C, set on 74 deg would freeze you out., even when it hit 100+ deg.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Graphic, I wasn't traveling the week we hit 118, and my 3 had no problems in stop and go traffic, you might want to have your checked. I would assume if my 3 can handle 118 then your's should too... So hows the S4 ?
Sign In or Register to comment.