Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

habitat1 · August 2012

Yup, that's usually how it is...

But....I don't think you need to (or should) go as far as to "settle" for your third (or worse) choice of color and options if you plan ahead and are willing to do the other three things.

Acura makes it easy. Limited "trim" choices and color choices with almost no options to begin with. Find a dealer with a big inventory that has great deals. Other brands, with long option lists, are a little tougher. But, my recent experience with BMW proved to me that custom ordering from a dealer - which I always assumed meant paying a higher price than taking a car off the lot - may in fact produce the best results, long term. We had to shop around to a dozen or more dealers to find one that still had allocation spots for a 2012 X5d, but in the end, found one willing to negotiate a price that was within a few hundred (compared to invoice) of the best deal we could have gotten for a "leftover" vehicle on the lot. But, by ordering to our exact specs, we also didn't get stuck with a few options we didn't want, which ended up putting us ahead in the end.

If and when I get another "fun" car, I will in all likelihood order a Porsche rather than take one of the lot. Trying to find my color and option preferences, given the ridiculous list of choices from Porsche, is a near fruitless exercise. And I'd rather shop around for a dealer willing to give me a 6-7% discount on a custom order than compromise my preferences to take a car off the lot (like I did in 2005) at a 11% discount, but one that had a lot of options that I didn't want and didn't have a couple that I now know I would like.

A friend of mine who used to work for Audi (corporate, not dealer) indicated that, even though Audi is achieving record sales and many dealerships are low on inventory, you can still order one at or below invoice due to incentives and their desire to continue to increase sales vs. BMW and Mercedes.

There is a saying in my business (real estate development) that a great deal on a fair property is not as good as a fair deal on a great property. For my friend that got lucky with a 535i manual transmission, he got the best of both worlds. But for most of us, I think I'd rather shop really hard for the car I wanted, and not be stuck with my third or fourth choice color and the wrong options for the next 6-7-8+ years.

graphicguy · August 2012

hclll....most of the regulars here already know what I own. But, I drive an '11 335ix coupe, while the girlfriend drives an Audi S4 (majorly juiced A4). I'm 5'10" and 190 lbs. The girlfriend is 5'3" and about 125 lbs. I actually find her Audi to be more comfortable and easier to see out of than my 335i. She drives my car as much as she drives her car (and vice versa). I've never heard her complain either way....although, I'm glad both cars have memory seats.

flightnurse · August 2012

The V8 in the Vette I own as well as current Vettes are what makes the car. NOt too sure what you mean by, Play games with the gear ratios? Drop it down to 3rd, and watch most car disappear in the rear view mirror. Remember, according to some, only real car enthusiasts gets manuals! I really liked my Vette, however, mine must have been a Monday car, as it wasn't screwed together very well...

billyperksii · August 2012

I am coverting my fog lights to HID and I wanted to know if I need"RELAY HARNESS" to do this?
I ordered the kit yesterday so I am still in the dark about these RELAYS.
Remember, this is for a 2009 TL AWD.

stickguy · August 2012

being able to wait should eliminate the settling issue.

The internet makes it real easy to shop around. In a fe minutes, I found the dealer that seems to be hoarding all the ones we want (first choice color and interior). They have 3, no one else seems to have any! But, they are about 2 hours away.

so my choice now is, take a ride, or just wait for a local dealer to get one.

of course, the far away guy is also way lower on price.

habitat1 · August 2012

What I meant was that, in order to achieve respectable EPA highway ratings for the Corvette, GM made the final (two, I believe) gear ratios so tall that they are effectively idling at 65 mph and don't play any part in the use of the car as a sports car - i.e. what you basically have is a 4-speed manual with 2 overdrive gears. And that, for a variety of reasons, just doesn't appeal to me as something I would ever claim was great engineering. At least when Porsche decides to add a tall highway ratio like they did this year, they put it in as a 7th speed and leave the first 6 as before and perfectly matched to the engine output.

I don't want to turn this into a GM bashing string, but here's what I see when I look at "precision engineering":

Z06 Corvette vs. 911S
7.0 liters vs. 3.8 liters
505 hp vs. 400 hp
470 ft.lbs vs. 325 ft.lbs
15/24 EPA vs. 18/27 EPA
Slower vs. faster acceleration (to 60-100)
Slower vs. faster around "The Ring"
Higher vs. lower top speed (in 4th vs. 6th)
$76,000 vs. $96,000

You can essentially do the same comparison for the ZR1 vs. 911 Turbo.

I don't dispute that the Corvette is a lot of raw performance for the money. I just think that it appeals to those that prefer "raw" to refined. Everything is done by increasing the quantity - engine size, tire size, etc. And they still fall short of the 911 on everything that matters to me for a nimble handling high performance sports car. The fact that a 911S or Turbo costs $20-30k more than the comparable Corvette model may make them "expensive" to some, but I'd rather have the "cheap" 911S than the $15k more expensive ZR1 any day. I'm not going to be too disappointed that I am a few tenths slower in the quarter mile or a few MPH short in top speed. At least I will have a car engineered to get the absolute most out of less, and is "screwed together" very well. (Something that I am also going to consider when I cast my presidential vote this fall).

sweendogy · August 2012

"No thanks, and no offense, but the Corvette is, in many ways for me, the epitome of GM's screwed up engineering. "

sounds like a ringing endorcement for the brand to me..

while I agree the higher ("expensive") priced 911 is a better all around car-- its still considerably more "expensive"-

couple of questions- i see you used a select use of comparion data- why the select group, ie no 0-60?.. other question is the "" around expensive- whats that supposed to mean?? a 25% premium (w/o options) from one car to the other, when comparing such cars seems regular, no "" expensive to me

habitat1 · August 2012

I was making reference to 0-60 in my "faster acceleration to 60 and on up to 100+/-" I know you are a stickler for hard data, but to be honest, I'm going off of memory of comparison tests by R&T, C&D, etc, whereby the Corvette had considerably difficulty starting from a standstill without spinning its wheels. I do know the new 911S has been independently tested at 3.7 seconds to 60, but would have to do some research to get a reference. Same is true for the turbo, which at 2.8+/- was the second fastest (0.1 behind the Veyron) ever tested. Not that any of this matters to me personally. Anything under about 4.5 is more than I need or care to pay for.

Which brings me to the "expensive" quotes. I respect that for some people, $75k is expensive and for others $135k isn't so much so, compared to the $2 million plane they are eyeballing. I am a heck of a lot closer to the former than the latter. But for me, a $96k 911S (the cheaper Porsche) would be far more rewarding to drive and own than the $110k ZR1 (most expensive Corvette). Hell, knock the "S" off the 911 and save another $12k and it wouldn't change my mind.

I just don't find the GM engineering of the Corvette is particularly inspiring or compelling. Not that I'm a German snob and don't think the U.S. is capable of it - in fact, I have a deposit on a Tesla Model S and may very well be driving my first American car in 25+ years by next February.

sweendogy · August 2012

"I have a deposit on a Tesla Model S and may very well be driving my first American car in 25+ years by next February. "

that being said, what are you doing in the ELLPS chat talking mpgs in the MDX?

please limit the use of quotes in your response

flightnurse · September 2012

The interesting thing about the Vette v 911 is the person who is shopping a Vette isn't shopping for a 911, they are completely different cars. The Vette rings America, Big V8, baritone exhaust tone, flat torque curve. Now while the Vette is "idling" at 65 the car does pick up speed nicely while in 6th gear.

Your argument is interesting, however, one needs to remember, when cruising along the highway, why does the car need to be revving at 3K. The owner just has to go down to 3rd gear and be gone.. Not a hard thing to do.

Price a base model vette can be had for 45K, while the base price 911 is 86K. Not too sure if the extra money is worth the extra performance.

flightnurse · September 2012

After months of looking and driving and fretting over a car, my partner FINALLY decided on one. Now, it's not a BMW, or Audi, or MB nor is it a Infiniti. However, the Infiniti M was scratched off his list very early. After an interesting week in Charlotte on my way home (have to love WiFi while flying) my partner tells me he finally chosen a car and will tell me about it after he picks me up at the airport. So for the next 3 hours I was trying to figure out what it was, so upon arriving in phoenix I narrowed it down to 3, Hyundai Genesis 3.8, Ford Taurus (eco boost 2.0L, 2013) and lastly VW Passt SE TDI. Not too sure why I thought the Hyundai but I did.. After getting my check bagged, I meet him at the usual spot on on the north side arrival by entrance 8. He is hungry, I'm not, had a good dinner on the flight but went out anyhow. So after a few conversation about things that happened with both us, I told which car he decided on... I get this look and reaction, "how in the hell did you know..." I laughed, but wasn't too sure which one, but had to guess again, so I went with the Hyundai, Genesis, turned out not to be the V6, but the V8 4.6. So at dinner he explained why he went with it and it all makes sense.... He loves cars, but not in the same sense as I do, he doesn't drive his cars hard at all...

MSRP, $45,798, sale price $37,990, it is a 2012, White with Cashmere leather interior, and for 2012 all 4.6L Genesis came fully loaded. Granted it doesn't handle like a BMW, or have the "bling" of the MB or the style of Audi, but what it does have is VALUE... We picked the car up on Sat, and drove up to Prescott, AZ. Have to save, was impressed with the dealership and how smoothly the transaction was and how the salesman went over every item on the car with Rick. I was impressed with how it drove, seats are very comfortable, and handled the mountain roads with no issue. My partner likes BMW's and Audi's, but he couldn't justify the price of a 528 or A6 and he doesn't tackle the round abouts (or jug handles as they are called in Jersey) like I do, but he wanted all the luxury and room in the back seats for his clients. So the out the door price was just little over $40K, not too sure how anyone could pass up this deal (Yes I know some of you would without thinking twice.) The same dealer has a couple of Equus they had one on the showroom, MSRP $61,000, sale price $50K...

sweendogy · September 2012

Good stuff- who would of thought a Korean auto maker could be cross shopped against the Germans and gain a sale- huge strides for the company as a whole - enjoy the rig

habitat1 · September 2012

Interesting, my marketing director is seriously considering the Equus as a replacement for her E-class. Her priority is luxury and space, as she often is driving clients around and, according to her, the Equus has a back seat that is closer to an S class than an E class in size and comfort. Her husband, a retired Navy pilot and much more of a driving enthusiast, couldn't be pried out of his older generation M5 with a crowbar. When he drove the Equus, he picked it apart relative handling, braking and precision relative to the German alternatives. But she's looking at the comfort, space and VALUE - and willing to give Hyundai a chance. Plus the dealer is willing to give her the car for an entire week to test drive.

My guess is that the Equus will get a few more Infiniti and Lexus buyers to consider it than Audi or BMW buyers, but either way, Hyundai has come a long way since those shaky early years.

flightnurse · September 2012

As I posted My partner looks at value first and foremost., this is his car, now if I had a say, the car of choice would have been a 550i, and I would have made up the difference for him. One thing people need to remember is, when Infiniti and Lexus hit our shores, the mindset was the same, who would shop a Japanese car and MB...

nyccarguy · September 2012

Congrats on the new ride! Best of luck to you with it! A V8, RWD, sedan for $40K is a good deal! Keep us informed of how you like it!

flightnurse · September 2012

While at the dealership picking up the car, I sat in the Equus and the first thing that came to my mind was, space, front seat and backseat has lots of it. After speaking to a salesmen for the Equus (not all Hyundai salesmen can sell the Equus) Hyundai brought that car over here to show that it is serious about luxury cars. In Korea people who have them have a driver, the owner doesn't drive them. It is an interesting car..

For the money, the Genesis have plenty of room in the back (more then an E Class) and has all the bell's and whistles then a base E class has.

So far reliability hasn't been a problem for either car which is something that MB and at times BMW can not say. So it should be interesting to see how well this car holds up.

wireless · September 2012

The edgy-cool styling of the Hyundai's is starting to look a little dated. It is not classic styling that lasts but for a few years - often the problem with Asian designs, more derivative than creative. Good deals for the people who are into the moment and in that price range though.

billyperksii · September 2012

Not Acuras- they stand the test of time.

flightnurse · September 2012

Interesting, since the Genesis sedans aren't edgy in design but very much conservative.

flightnurse · September 2012

They gave him more on his trade in then I figured they would, so over all it was a great deal...

robr2 · September 2012

Interesting, since the Genesis sedans aren't edgy in design but very much conservative.

I would presume wireless is referring to the Sonata. I have to agree. IIRC, I posted elsewhere that the styling would be dated rather quickly.

The issue with the edgy styling is that it needs refreshing more often. For instance the Sonata design language was updated for the Azera and IMHO, the Azera is a very handsome vehicle.

flightnurse · September 2012

I knew what wireless was talking about however, he didn't mention that in his post.

I agree I was taken how nice the Azera was in person, I believe the Azera wont get old looking too quickly and easy to update...

habitat1 · September 2012

Billy, you are way too young to be an authority on "the test of time".

I saw something that looked like my old 1987 Acura Integra on the road the other day and almost threw up. But our neighbor has a 1985 MB 300D that, in addition to refusing to die in spite of billowing black smoke at 400k miles, still doesn't look all that bad at only a few years younger than you.

sweendogy · September 2012

Not that my opinion means much- but I think the styling of the genesis will hold up well after the years pass. It's got styling from both Lexus and MB. It's understated yet elegant - love the looks of the exterior - the interior specifically the shifter and nav look a little dated already but from the outside this car is a nice looker- flight you should of talked your partner into getting a "r" type.

All in all a great value

sweendogy · September 2012

On the company website it looks like they streamlined the line a bit - 2012 had 5 options, 2013 only 2 with the 3.8 and the grand daddy 5.0 r type. Wonder if the other options will be added late- or gone forever

flightnurse · September 2012

The dealer didn't have any Spec R's and I doubt he would have gone for it if they did.

I drove the car to Tuscon to see a client, cruise was set at 75, i averaged 25.6 mpg, on a very green engine. EPA rates the car at 26 on the highway.

habitat1 · September 2012

Say it ain't so.....cruise control on a green engine????

Not sure what Hyundai told you, but on all of my past four new cars (Acura, Acura, Porsche and BMW) that was the one consistent thing that everybody said (and was in the owners manual): Do not use cruise control in the first 1,000 miles and if you have a long highway drive, vary the speed and engine rpms. My friend with the 535i manual is also a mechanical/nuclear engineer and gave me his interpretation as to why it is critically important that engine parts run at different speeds so as not to have single points of contact during early break in. My non-stop 510 mile trip back from Spartanburg in our new X5d was a test of discipline not to use cruise, but I varied the speeds between 60 and 80 and still averaged 29.4 mpg.

You may want to check the owners manual on the Genesis, but I'd be surprised if what's being recommended for everything else wouldn't also apply to it.

robr2 · September 2012

...Cadillac ATS at the dealer. 3.6L Performance AWD with every box ticked for options. It stickered at over $54K. A fellow sports dad is the sales manager at the dealer and he showed it to me. He hadn't driven it yet but his sales people had and it was a rocket.

He said they ordered this first one with everything to show folks what is offered. He expected some entry priced units shortly. I asked him to order a turbo standard with the 6 speed so I could try it but he smiled and asked for a deposit. He knows the 7 of us who want a stick will probably order one!!

billyperksii · September 2012

Not too young- look around next time, even the Vigors look sturdy as well as the 1st generation TL- I guess it depends on the owner, my TL turned 3 years this past August (and strangers tell me they think its a new car)and I see the exact TL's at the dealer getting oil changes looking pretty beat up.

nyccarguy · September 2012

While I'm sure that ATS looked nice, at $54K? No thank-you. It might find a buyer with $12K off sticker + 0% for 60 months + scheduled maintenance included during a GM "red tag sale event."

billyperksii · September 2012

Or shell out 2K grand more and get an A6 Prestige (with some haggling involved).
ATS for 54K- thats some serious price overlap.

fedlawman · September 2012

I just built an ATS (2.0L Turbo) with 6-speed MT, moonroof, and heated seats for an MSRP of $36,000. That's $2500 less than a similarly equipped 328i.

270 hp, 33xx lb curb weight, and dimensions almost exactly the same as the 3 series. Impressive - I'm looking forward to seeing and driving one.

sweendogy · September 2012

Lawman I haven't priced it out but if that's the case 2500 bux is a huge nut- wait 6 months and with discounts your prob over 5k in savings.. I haven't read enuf about the car to truly spike my interest, but the commercials are cool - plus only one caddy dealer I know up here I think still has a few new Cinerons on the lot as 1988 leftovers

habitat1 · September 2012

I am unfamiliar with the ATS, but....you might want to consider resale value before you reach any conclusion as to whether it is a good deal compared to a 328i.

In my area at least, a 3-4-5 year old used Cadillac has almost no market appeal compared to a well maintained BMW. So, unless you are planning to keep one for 8+ years such that resale value isn't a significant factor, I think the $2,500 savings up front would translate into a huge negative difference in resale in 3-4 years. Perhaps it's different in other parts of the country, but that's the way it is in the DC area.

nyccarguy · September 2012

Habitat - while that is true & I have the utmost respect for your knowledge & opinions, I buy cars for ME & not the next guy. There's always some excuse that the dealer comes up with at trade in time anyway. When I traded my Black/Black 2010 TSX Tech (49,000 miles) back in March, I got $19,000 for it. Now Acuras are supposed to have high resale value, my car was a desirable color combo, had the tech pkg (NAV, backup camera, upgraded stereo...), was a 4 cyl (good on gas), automatic, 8/10 exterior, 9/10 interior... I had a dealer offer me $16K (that's 50% depreciation in 2 years). He told me there was an 80 day supply of TSXs. When I told him that only 4 had crossed the auction block with Tech Pkg, he fired back that the NAV wasn't that desirable.

graphicguy · September 2012

FN....congratz to your partner, i've driven the Genesis a couple of times. The V8 was very impressive given the price. Nice deal, too!

flightnurse · September 2012

I had to watch my speed, I caught myself doing 95, the DPS (highway Patrol) really patrol I-10 between Casa Grande and Tuscon. The car isn't breaking a sweet at 95... I'm sure the owners manual doesn't recommends using the cruise either,

flightnurse · September 2012

Hey Graphic thanks, he is very proud of it, he had his first clients in the car, the couple have a new 2013 E350. At first the husband wasn't too sure what car Rick had, at the end of the tour, the husband asked Rick, the husband was impressed, as the husband told Rick he has owned a MB for the last 25 years.

I think he made the right choice...

flightnurse · September 2012

The Vigors was a lesson learned by Acrua... Stupid name, and it looked too much like an Accord on the inside, and the interior screamed HONDA....

habitat1 · September 2012

NYC,

Haven't checked KBB or other sources, but $19k for a 2010 TSX with 49,000 miles doesn't seem terrible, given that Acura is discounting the heck out of their new cars now. I just got another e-mail from Pohanka Acura indicating they would give me $9,300 of a brand new 2012 TL SH-AWD (manual or auto), which works out to around $36k. I have to believe that Acura's aggressive pricing on new cars would affect resale values of 2-3 year old, higher mileage ones. A used TSX Tech for $20k such as yours looks pretty good when a new TL AWD TEch is listed at $44k. Not so much when the TL can actually be bought for $36-37k. Not sure what the situation was in March.

But I still think Acuras and BMWs hold their value much better than Cadillacs in our area. I fully concur with you that you should buy a car for YOURSELF and not the next guy, but for others that were comparing vehicles and looking at a $2-4k difference in price up front (only 5-10%), considering resale may help justify (or not) the initial price difference.

And or those that don't care about resale because they might keep the car for 6-8 years, I think its also worth checking out older versions of what they are considering and see how they hold up. Just yesterday, a friend of mine picked me up in his 2002 Mercedes C320 with 190,000 miles. It looks and drives like its just nicely broken in. He mentioned that his wife's Escalade, after 4 years and 50,000 miles shows much more age with rattles, uneven leather wear, chrome pitting on the grill, etc. They bought the Escalade in 2008 as a result of getting what looked like a great deal compared to a Mercedes. Now, they are likely to give all of the savings back on a miserable trade in for a new GL.

robr2 · September 2012

While I'm sure that ATS looked nice, at $54K? No thank-you.

I agree that $54K is a bit of a stretch for the ATS but you can option out a 3 series to almost $60K. I'm going to say that the ATS will do very well in the $35-40K price range

The enthusiast mags are already saying the 3 has some serious competition in terms of driving dynamics. But the badge snobs will still flock to the 3 because of the roundel. Personally I'm not interested in driving what my neighbor's 25 yo live at home kid is leasing. I like to be noticed in something different.

flightnurse · September 2012

Rob, the magazine's always say something like that when they aren't doing a comparison, on their own each might be a great car, but once you get the competition together the faults of each car are easy to see. I hope the ATS does well, competition only makes for a fun time and better products.

flightnurse · September 2012

Habitat- the Escalate is just a suburban with bling, nothing extra was done to it and of course weren't built very well, can't use that as a comparison to a German built car.

The reason why we got the Genesis at the price is the 2013 are rolling in, end of year, all manufactures are doing this, even BMW (with the 5 series). Currently here in Phoenix, BMW is offering $4500 off options (not too sure which option package they are referring to) plus $3K.

nyccarguy · September 2012

And I agree with you that a mid to high $50 something thousand dollar 3 series is absurd as well. Much of the 3's "advantages" may be gone as well due to electric power steering & suspension softening.

While it is true that 328xis are EVERYWHERE, especially silver ones like mine, the E90 is still an absolute blast to drive. I welcome the competition as well. The ATS looks nice, the next IS should be more competitive, the next G will probably make all of us BMW nuts think twice before a return trip to our local dealer.

When my lease is up in 2 years, I don't think I'll be shopping in this ELLPS category anyway.

robr2 · September 2012

Rob, the magazine's always say something like that when they aren't doing a comparison, on their own each might be a great car, but once you get the competition together the faults of each car are easy to see. I hope the ATS does well, competition only makes for a fun time and better products.

You're right - until the 2 are compared side by side, it's all speculation. But if the worshipers of the temple of BMW say it has a chance...

I too look forward to some competition for the 3 series. It's a great car but IMHO getting a little soft.

habitat1 · September 2012

I too look forward to some competition for the 3 series. It's a great car but IMHO getting a little soft.

Or....is it just that the 3 series has gotten too big? The current 3 series nearly as big (and heavy) as the 5 series from a few generations ago. And the current 5 is nearly as big as the 7 series was a few generations ago. Want small and nimble, a little one series, that seems tiny by today's standards, is not much smaller than a 1990 vintage 3 series.

The 3 series can still be made to be tight, as was proven to me as I rode in the backseat of a 4-door M3 being driven by a BMW instructor at their track last week. But look at the relatively low percentage of 335i's that are equipped with manual transmissions today, let alone sport packages and suspensions. I don't think BMW has gotten soft by their own preference - rather it's more the result of their objective to increase sales and, as such, having to cater to a lower common denominator when it comes to American buyers. Frankly, I wish they'd just tell the softee buyers to pound salt and buy a Lexus. But then again, I'm not a BMW shareholder.

flightnurse · September 2012

I do hope the ATS is as good as what Cadillac has been saying in their commercials, however, history has proven that they have been short every time... I'm looking forward in driving a ATS and XTS, once national rental car gets them in, next week I'm back in Detroit so I'm hoping they have gotten the XTS.

robr2 · September 2012

I do hope the ATS is as good as what Cadillac has been saying in their commercials, however, history has proven that they have been short every time...

I'm more interested in what the reviewers say as they get the most seat time in every car.

As for what Cadillac says in the ads....I've never seen any advertiser say "Hey our product is mediocre."

billyperksii · September 2012

yeah right

ivan_99 · September 2012

Unless you're the Mitsubishi Australian CEO

I don't know why people buy a Mitsubishi...What is the benefit?

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