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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Bill did u own a Vigor when it was new?
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Rob, I'm talking about history, and even on Cadillac web page they say it is better then a 3 series... I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Why is this directed at me IVAN?
    FWIW, I agree with the Australian CEO.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    I think I was still in high school but my older brother best friend had one and it was one sweet ride back then. Additionally, those name (VIGOR AND LEDGEND) catapulted the Acura brand. My sister's husband bought the Ledgend and that car was the talk of the town, I was aspiring to buy one.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Just because you agreed to the statement

    "As for what Cadillac says in the ads....I've never seen any advertiser say "Hey our product is mediocre."

    So I thought I'd point out where an employee (the top) made a public statement (which is sort of like an advertisement) saying their product was mediocre.

    btw...me too (agreeing with the CEO) :)
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Legend, integra and vigor - I agree totally made the brand "pop" certainly where I grew up in the urban jungle. (maxima another car, )

    Now they have the Acura tl-shawd advance package and a blump grill -
  • wirelesswireless Member Posts: 47
    And they did away with names as numbers sound more prestigious... like the German makes.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    We leased a Vigor in 1994... the last year... A loaded GS model.. It was my wife's car and we really liked it.. stickered for right around $29K

    5-cylinder, 172 HP... weak R134 A/C.. Killer lease deal (my first lease)..

    My aunt bought a new Legend in 1992... which is now sitting in my driveway.. 43K miles!! Original MSRP was $32,500..

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  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    A buddy of mine bought a Legend GS 6-speed manual sometime around 1994. Pretty interesting that BMW and Porsche (I believe) were still using 5-speed manuals at the time. Granted, it was still FWD, but for Acura, that may have been the pinnacle of their attempt to challenge the 5-series as the sport sedan leader.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    I think in 1994, Acura was probably kicking BMW's butt... at least in sales...

    E34s weren't the most loved model that BMW ever came out with... and, then.. they had the Nikasil issues with the V-8 engines..

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  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited September 2012
    So are you saying you have a 1992 Legend with 43,000 original miles. Wow.

    I really liked that generation of Legend. Very nice looking car, and clearly very well engineered. I still think it was a mistake to drop the Legend name, but obviously that's water that's been under the bridge for something like 15 years...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    What built Acura was the Legend and Integra and the total dealer experience, not the Vigor (the car was around for 2 or 3 yrs), again the name was stupid. I had a roommate at the time have one (bought new), and every time he drove me to the airport I swear I was in an Accord.... Now my roommates brother in law at a Legend LS which I thought was a nice car.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    If I'm not mistaken, even the original Legend was built upon an Accord platform - or some variation of it. The Integra was definitely based upon the Civic.

    Part of the problem/dilemma with Acura over the years is that they have not put enough distance between themselves and Honda in the engineering and product positioning of their vehicles. Both Lexus and Infiniti put a much bigger gap between themselves and their respective roots. Acura stuck with Honda based FWD and V6's, even in their top of the line cars; and as a result has had to fight the perception that the Integra, Legend, TL and even RL were simply gussied up Honda's. It wasn't until the 2007 MDX that it wasn't simply a well equipped, face-lifted Pilot. Lexus had that problem with the ES - a gussied up Camry - but the GS and LS had no Toyota counterpart and were made in Japan. The early G20 was a Sentra based car, but at least eventually evolved into its own identity with RWD. The M and Q were non-Nissans.

    The good news for Acura is that Honda is a better starting point than Nissan and Toyota, in my opinion. But they seemed to have bi-polar disorder in trying to establish a true luxury division and then chickening out when it came to competing with BMW and Mercedes. They could have, IMO.

    Off subject, the best engineered car, dollar for dollar, I have ever owned was my 2002 Honda S2000. RWD, 120hp/liter without turbos, as tight of a suspension as a Porsche. I just wish they had more balls to put some of their engineering prowess into something that competed with a 550i 6-speed manual. Or, just introduce a Honda S3000 so I have something to consider before I buy another Porsche. The upcoming NSX is over the top in stylistic craziness and will, I predict, be a non-event. The S2000 was revolutionary and forced Porsche to improve their Boxster. But I digress...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    The Legend was a result of a joint venture with Britain's Austin Rover Group called Project XX that started in November 1981 with the Austin Rover-Honda XX letter of intent signed by the two companies to replace the Rover SD1 and to provide a luxury vehicle for Honda. ("Acura Legend", 15 August 2012 at 23:46.). So according to this, the legend was not an accord in any way which is what I thought.

    Yes, the Integra was based on the Civic.

    Acura Legend. (15 August 2012 at 23:46.). Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_Legend
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Once again the Vigor was an Accord...

    The Honda Vigor is a compact sedan sold in Japan from 1981 to 1995. It was sold in North America from 1992 to 1994 as the Acura Vigor, a mid-size luxury car. The Vigor started out in Japan only in the early 1980s as a luxury level Accord, and as such was Honda's flagship sedan until the arrival of the Honda Legend. Acura Vigor. ( 23 August 2012 at 18:43.)

    Acura Vigor. ( 23 August 2012 at 18:43.). Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_Vigor
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    That's true.. the Vigor was a Japanese market Accord.

    But, all Acuras are Hondas.. The Acura nameplate is purely a marketing exercise for North America... They don't exist in the home market (but, the vehicles do..)

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  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Very true...which is why in Europe they sold the Honda NSX :shades:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Ooh, did you say "Sterling?" :P
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Yup, I remember the Sterlings 825 better styling then the Legend, but for some reason wasn't as reliable as the Acura. I really like the 5 Door that was produced. My room mate who had the Vigor, his brother in law bought a 5 door Sterling, then later on bought a Legend.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    This is true, but the dealer experience is what set them apart from the Honda dealers too. Even today there is a big difference between the Acura Dealer and the Honda Dealer, in regards to attitude..
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    The Rover 820 and 825 were very popular over here in UK but the 820 was considered the better, (2.0ltr i4), as the 825 engine only came into it's own at higher revs, which most owners didn't use. The later 827 improved the situation but not enough.

    We still get Honda Legend over here too. Last one I saw was last year, (maybe longer), on a dealer's forecourt. 10 miles on the clock and a price reduced by just 50%, yes 50% ! Salesman said he was prepared to haggle and would let it go if he could show a £100 profit. Not terribly popular, (3,5 ltr V6), but a wonderful piece of engineering. Last one I saw on the road was a friend's in Austria, three years ago. Superb ride but thirsty.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Here in the states we got the 825 and 827SL.
  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    "Now they have the Acura tl-shawd advance package and a blump grill -"
    Waaay better car than a G35- IMHO.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    "Now they have the Acura tl-shawd advance package and a blump grill -"
    Waaay better car than a G35- IMHO.


    I hope so since Infiniti has updated the G35 with the G37... How much better is the TL- SH AWD w/ advance package over say a fully loaded G37?
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    edited September 2012
    This topic is getting boring. All we ever seem to talk about is Acuras, what's up with that? The real ELLPCs don't get much discussion. I posted my impressions of the F30 BMW and nobody had much to say or ask.

    My brother told me he thought he might look at an Acura to replace his Accord. I told him to check out Infinitis. ;)

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • billyperksiibillyperksii Member Posts: 198
    Same old noisy V6 with 2 extra gears. :)
    Sweeny dont start, you know my partiality towards the TL.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    One mans noise is another mans symphony
    The Nissan work horse v6 - knock it for being brash but it brings the goods when needed- I took a 400mile rd trip all highway over the weekend 23.5 mpg nothing to write home about - but at 32500 miles the 5 year old was smooth and soft when needed.
    . I like everything thing the tl awd brings to the table - overall a great package - and awd with stick is cool, plus he 9k off people have been talking about this car is a stud given discounted price.- but take all the cars in this class - put them side by side and on looks alone it would lose vs ever car in this class- the dealers were painting the factory grill - there are websites where you can get a replacement grill- and Honda had to reduce the nose in short order to get cars to move off the lots.
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    I agree, the ATS might be a great car but Cadillac has a long way to go before they can command that kind of price.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Not too sure about that, the VQ V6 has to be one of the nicest V6 made, and it has won many awards.

    But the best 6 cyl is the one BMW makes, well balanced, built to last and sings to red line.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I took a 400mile rd trip all highway over the weekend 23.5 mpg nothing to write home about

    This is whats going to kill Infiniti, they have to get that engine to stop drinking fuel.... Hell a BMW 740i is rated at 28 on the highway, and the car is MUCH heavier then your G35....
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    This topic is getting boring. All we ever seem to talk about is Acuras, what's up with that? The real ELLPCs don't get much discussion.

    This board was deader than Elvis for months, if not years, until a couple of people made it their own personal playground. A few worthy posts slip in from time to time (like yours), so I continue to follow it. I found the F30 review interesting, but since I don't own one or have any plans to buy or drive one, didn't respond.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Forums have a way of changing over time, and with the crop of new cars coming into the ELLPS maybe the that are talked about here should be expanded. This board has a wide range of likes and dislikes and a very wide idea on what a ELLPS is, what I don't like are the personal attacks and how people continue to beat a dead horse and can't move forward. But humans do come in all shapes, sizes and personalities.

    When it comes to driving the new F30 cars, the 328i w/ the 8 spd auto is a good combo. Was at the BMW dealer on Friday, my niece wanted to buy a used 328i, and a local dealer had a cream puff, 2009 329i, Jet Black, Oyster Leather (great combo, no wear marks on the seats) Premium, Sport and Cold Weather package, Xenon head lights, power rear shade, Sat radio, Comfort Access, iPod/USB port. 46K miles, CPO and the dealer was asking $25,777. We couldn't get the numbers to work, and left, but I figured the dealer would call her, and they did, so on Sat we went back, she was about to get the car for $24,100 + tax and fee's.

    I drove a 2012 X3, i28, have to say was impressed, much larger then the last X3 I drove (2009) and the turbo 4 and 8 spd auto is a good combo, the transmission always seemed to be in the right gear when driving around town and one would be hard pressed to know it was a turbo...

    The X1 is a joke, about the same size as a CRV and Rogue for 39K, I assumed the X1 has the same 8 spd auto as the X3 and 328's have but they do not, they have a 6 spd... wonder why, cost ??

    While the finance department was getting my nieces paperwork together, I was talking with the sales manager and asked him how many BMW's does the dealership order with the M sport package? (this was a different dealer than where I bought my 328 from) and the number was surprising.... He told me 1 in 800. The people who are buying BMW today aren't really the sport people and they are looking for the luxury of the car not the sportiness of the car. I was basically told, if I wanted a 3 or 5 series with the M sport package, I would have to order the car, since he wouldn't order one for the dealership. In fact over the last 5 years the amount of BMW with the sport package has decreased, people don't like the sport seats.... Basically BMW is going soft because the market demands it.... Pretty sad....

    So my niece is very happy with her new BMW, she got a great car and it still has some of the factory 4yr/50K Maintenance warranty left and she got the 6yr 100K mile warranty... Knowing my niece she will drive it pretty close to the 100K mark in that amount of time.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    There seems to be a theme here that more gears is better. I disagree. Ranking the transmission options in a 335i, I'd put it at:

    #1: 6-speed manual
    #2: 7-speed dual clutch automatic ("auto-manual")
    #3: 8-speed Steptronic (torque converter "slush box")

    Even the suggestion that an 8-speed Steptronic is better than a 6-speed is a little questionable. I recall when BMW responded to Lexus introduction of 8-speed autos with the counter that BMW engine torque bands were wide enough that they didn't want to add more gears to have the car fishing for the right one at a particular speed. Is the current 8-speed Steptronic a response to the EPA in trying to eek an extra mpg out of the engine? Just like the not so popular start stop feature. The 6-speed auto in our X5d has no trouble producing 30 mpg on the highway and accelerating like a (big) V8 from 50 to 80. I can see where the lower torque 3.5i might benefit with 2 extra gears, but the X5d doesn't need them.

    What's next, a 10-speed auto that has to shift 9 times to get you to a highway cruise? Or worse, a CVT transmission with an "infinite" number of equivalent gear ratios? At least when Porsche made their EPA concession, it was by adding a 7th gear to their manual that was a pure overdrive. They left the first 6 ratios untouched. The engine redlines in 6th gear at 188 mph (top speed) and the ratios are perfectly matched to get every ounce of performance out of the engine. That's what's important. And should be to BMW. Not playing a who's got more game with Lexus.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    Agree- could a cvt head into the g and M? Or will he engine change to MB in the next refresh- something has to break
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The X1 gets an 8 speed auto on the turbo four and a 6 speed auto on the i35 6 cyl model.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited September 2012
    Be happy to talk about BMW 335i and Audi S4 if you want..... :shades:
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    The ‘Best Choice’ for me [ YMMV ] is #2 - the 7-speed DCT in the BMW 335iS I currently drive.

    I have driven several BMW 6-speed Steptronics and one new 8-speed Step [ in a 2012 535i ] and except in very slow & stop traffic [ 0 – 20 mph ] this transmission is a paragon of quick & precise gearchanges [ up & down ] with very well managed driveline shock.

    - Ray
    No manual trans. for me anymore . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    this transmission is a paragon of quick & precise gearchanges [ up & down ] with very well managed driveline shock.

    Fortunately, I can still say the same thing about my right hand and left foot. But that's a debate for another forum. ;)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I'm sure it has to do with the EPA more than anything else, but the benefits of the 8 spd steptronic are three fold. One it helps with the EPA figure and two it keeps the engine in the torque band and three more people buy BMW with Auto's then manuals. With that being said, the 8 spd works will with the turbo 4, I haven't driven the turbo 6 with the 8 spd, but I would assume it would be a nice fit too.

    In regards to the 7 spd manual in the 911, I'm sure BMW will be moving to this soon to get their manual cars into line with the EPA too.

    I like the newer DCT a lot, very quick shifting up and down, and no lag when shifted
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Sweeny the issue Infiniti has, it is trying to one up BMW, and to do that it is doing it with more HP, and this comes at a cost. Infiniti for some reason just can not get the FM platform to handle as well as the 3 series, it has all the right box's checked to be a better car... Infiniti will have to do something to get in line with the EPA...

    I have a question some of you experts, does Infiniti fall under Nissan when it comes to the EPA? I would suspect if it does, then Infiniti will not worry about the MPG of the G or M for a while.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Interesting I swear the window sticker said the 4 cyl had the 6 spd. Either way just too small, and I was told that the X1 might take over for the 3 series wagon, I hope not...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I highly doubt you can shift your 911 faster then a DCT.

    In regards to your X5d, the torque band if so flat that having a 8 spd auto would be very beneficial in aiding more MPG without sacrificing performance.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Should have clarified that in my "rankings":

    #1 6-speed manual
    #2 7-speed DCT (M series, $2,900 option)
    #3 7-speed DCT (non-M, $450 option)
    #4 8-speed automatic

    Let's not confuse high end DCTs in the M3 or Porsche's PDK in the 911 with the DCT used by BMW in the standard 3/5 series. Very different in terms of design, performance - and cost. $2,900 for the BMW, $4,000 for the PDK, $10,000 for Ferrari. You aren't going to get that level of engineering or construction by checking a $450 box with BMW or VW.

    As for my manual shifting speed vs. a DCT. That's not the issue. I'll give up a tenth or two in the 0-60 (one shift) drag race in order to get the direct control and the engagement factor of driving the car. I understand that's a personal choice. I'm no Bubba Watson, but I still play golf from the tips of a 7,100 yard course because I want the full effect. I know I could score a few strokes better from the white tee box, but it wouldn't be as satisfying. It makes me laugh that some of my playing partners will spend $500 on a driver and then moan like babies when I suggest we play the black tees rather than the blues or whites.

    Regarding the X5d, the flat torque curve is precisely why you don't need as many gears. Every gear change results in energy loss. Small, but a loss nonetheless. By the time you get to highway speeds, the final gear ratio is all that matters, not how many shifts it took to get there. Around town, an extra gear or two might help, but a 5,300 pound curb weight is still the overriding factor.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    OK - my choice is now #3.
    All other comments still apply.
    - Ray
    Happy with the performance - and the cost....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I hear what you are saying as before I was the one who would never get a car that didn't have an auto, but not too sure if it age and or wisdom or both, but give me a good DCT over a manual...

    So in theory a CVT would be the best transmission since it does not have to shift so no energy is lost. Even though we know that Nissan is working overtime to perfect it, they have come a long way with the new Generation Altima and Infiniti JX, but to see a CVT in a true performance car, Nissan has it's work cut out for themselves.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I agree Infiniti is doing it with HP- but it's also doing it with price- real dollars that can pay for a boatload of gas and oil changes.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    Value only goes so far, lets take my partners Genesis, for 2012, the V8 came fully loaded, no options, and it listed at $46K, priced paid was $39K (plus tax and fee's). It is bigger than a E Class and 5 Series, but smaller than 7 series and S Class. Now how many people who bought a E class or 5 series crossed shopped the Genesis, maybe not many, but they should have, but because people wanted a E class or 5 series that is what they bought regardless of price, even though the Genesis was a better value..

    There is a point in which value can only take you so far, and I think Infiniti is getting to that point with the G and M...
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    Infiniti will be cross shopped by some BMW and Mercedes shoppers because although it may have some shortcomings, it is still generally considered a luxury brand. Infiniti may need to be value priced because of the shortcomings, but not necessarily because of a downscale image.

    Hyundai is not considered a luxury brand and must be very aggressive in its pricing to convince even a few E class buyers that a Genesis, coming from the makers of an Elantra, is worth a look. Add to that, quite a few of the current E class/5 series demographic are old enough to remember early Excels that were complete pieces of crap. A friend who bought one in the 1990's literally had the paint start peeling off the car inside of 3 years.

    Hyundai has improved considerably from those early days, but it is still very challenging to have your bread and butter cars selling for $15,000 to $19,000 and expect to get a lot of BMW/Mercedes/Audi cross shoppers into a showroom with a $40,000 Genesis or even more of a stretch $60,000 Equus. Even the Mercedes dealer down the road has a separate area of the showroom for AMG cars so that someone shopping for a $100,000 CLS63 doesn't have to rub elbows with someone shopping for a nice little $35,000 C250.

    Besides image, there is another value factor that is a little hard to quantify at this point. The price of a BMW/Mercedes can partly be rationalized by the belief from many decades of history that in 8-10 years it will still be a good, solid luxury car. Maybe not with the latest gadgets and do-dads, but certainly not ready for the junkyard. Hyundai has a few decades to go before they will have any kind of similar legacy. In fact, most 8-10 year old Hyundias are a direct contradiction to what they are now trying to position themselves at.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I agree with everything you stated, I don't think my post said other wise, however, infiniti can only be based as a value buy for a short time. I'm sure the next Gen G, will help improve the short comings that the car has, but at a price, and we will see the price of the car go up.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    I don't see why Infiniti can only be a value buy for a short time. I would think that they could and will continue to produce cars that are close to a BMW and at a decent discount.

    I think this is Cadillac's problem that they aren't willing to accept the fact they are a "value" luxury car. I personally think a Cadillac is on the same level as Infiniti and less than Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus, and above Acura. Lincoln is a lost cause as far as I am concerned.

    Another point, why does Infiniti and Cadillac put logos on some of their seats?
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