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Why? No, car will ever be exactly the same as a BMW, or any other brand for that matter, as they all have their little differences. Infiniti has chosen a path to be similar to a BMW but also different( and in some categories better) and for a little less money. Seems to work for them so why do you say they can only do it for a short time? I don't try to come off as a marketing genius like some people but that's like saying BMW can only price a 3 series up to mid $50s for a short time because it costs too much. Silly.
Just because something is priced a few thousand less does not make it any less of luxury car. If the car itself deserves to be in luxury class because of it's trimmings, equipment, quality and dealer experience...then it is.
FN....I see what you're saying. But, I think it stems from the fact that both Infiniti and Acura were, at least at their inception, marketed as BMW/Mercedes/Audi competitors. Whether it was ever true, I really don't know. I know the Legend was, at one time, King of the sport/lux hill. Lexus always chose the roll of a "better" Buick/Cadillac. The Infiniti M has tried, mostly in vain, to compete with the E Series, 5 series, A6. It never really crossed that barrier. The G got close to the BMW3, but never quite got there. Now, Infiniti seems to have fallen even farther behind.
But, I can't tell if this is a temporary thing for Infiniti (or for Acura, for that matter). We'll see. As both the RL/TL(X) and the G are due for major redos. Hard to tell where they'll fall with those vehicles.
Try again
Why would anyone buy a second place car? Well it's a better value and has proven itself over the past 10 years-
I would agree that if you compare certain driving dynamics of the G37 vs. the 335i you will conclude that BMW has the edge. But do the same thing for a FWD or even AWD automatic TL, and you come to the same conclusion just as quickly. Price point, features, maintenance costs, etc. all come into play and - hopefully - one has the good sense to buy what they believe is the right combination for them.
The problem would be if Infiniti priced the G37 exactly the same as a 335i, offered exactly the same features and options, marketed the car as a direct competitor to the 335i, but fell short on driving dynamics. I don't think that's the case here.
Personally, I think the 335i would fall into second place if I was buying a sedan today. At a price that is at or above $55k for a well optioned, performance model, it is way too close to the $65k+/- that I could buy an naturally aspirated 8,400 rpm M3 at. No comparison on driving dynamics, period. But that's my value judgement and someone else's is likely to be different.
Even when I bought my 2004 TL 6-speed, I was willing to compromise on driving dynamics to save $10k, get more space, a little better foul weather traction, and the Acura reliability/lower cost maintenance peace of mind. I would not make that same choice today. Different time, different circumstances, different priorities. That's not to say I didn't make my "first choice" in 2004 correctly, just that I would make a different one today.
I didn't read into his statement that driving dynamics was the only consideration. This topic, ELLPS, is not just for people looking to drive like Mario Andretti the 1% of the time they get the chance. People look at these vehicles for many different reasons so just because a car is #1 in driving dynamics does not make it the best car in this class. To some it may, but others may put long term relaiblility and less frequent and expensive repairs at the top of their priority list. Lots of different folks in this category and not just those that want to drive a car to it's absolute limits. If one never drives a car to it's absolute limits than that factor becomes much less of a consideration.
I think your line of thinking is completely different than many people who buy in this category. There are a lot of people out there who lease. I also believe there are A LOT of people out there who lease and do not understand leasing. You say that $55K + is too much for a 335i & you'd rather have an M3 for not too much more. I think there are a lot of "aspiring" aspiring ELLPS buyers/lessors who put money down on leases and say "you know, for another $X down and just $Y per month more, I could be driving a 335i instead of a 328i."
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
BMW subsidizes their leases with high residual values. According to BMWFS, after 30 months my 2011 328xi will be worth $26,406 with 50K on the odometer. My car is going straight to auction and they will loose their shirt. The car will be 3 model years old (with the 2015s coming out not too long after that, so almost 4) and the old body style.
Infiniti uses low money factors.
Mercedes-Benz uses conquest cash.
Acura uses loyalty cash & low APR. If you follow the "prices paid" or "lease questions" of any particular make/model it is apparent.
I'll be the 1st one to admit that my 2011 E90 328xi lease is a splurge for me. If it wasn't for the generous incentives ($2500 cash, sixty something percent residual value after 30 months, BMWFS makes 1st 2 payments up to $500 each) offered by BMWFS in March 2012 on leftover 2011 models, I'd still be driving my 2010 Acura TSX.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Lease equations can lead to different results. When we just bought our X5d, I couldn't see paying $1,500 for the premium sound package given what I thought was nominal benefit. But if it had worked out to only $10 extra per month for 36 months due to the way BMW makes the numbers work, maybe I would figured what the hell and checked the box.
There are people out there who have the mindset that a car payment is like another monthly bill. They like the smell of a new car every 2-3 years. If they are going to pay $500 a month (on a 60 month loan) for a loaded CamCord, then they might as well pay $600 a month (I'm just throwing this number out there) for a $45 - $50K BMW on a lease.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
BTW, BMW does not have a special for 18 months like the Infiniti, and no one can not lease a $45K BMW for $280/m with only $2200 out of pocket.
It bugs me a bit when I see car magazines do a comparison of cars and mix subjective value factors into determining a "winner". Just give me the objective facts about the cars. I'll figure out whether performance vs. luxury options vs. warranty vs. aesthetics determines the winner for me. And respect the fact that that might be different for the next guy. That doesn't mean one of us bought a "loser" .
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-23/cadillac-driving-to-disrupt-bmw-merc- - edes-u-dot-s-dot-luxury-grip
The Infiniti deal you are quoting is a little misleading , the 36k msrp g25- not 37 and the payment on the 25 is 289 with 2500 down-For 24mths not 18 that's the Infiniti offer.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I notice EVERYTHING about cars & saw as I was pumping 93 into my tank that he had selected 89 (mid grade). His car had the base (horrible looking IMO) 16" wheels that were on the '09s, he was fumbling with the windshield mounted GPS & it looked as if it hadn't been cleaned in 6 months.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
And your point is???
Good point and is exactly what I was saying previously. The BMW may be #1 in a couple of categories which is MOST important to SOME ELLPS buyers. To many other ELLPS buyers the value equation may be more important. Long term reliability and repair frequency and cost are very important to me as I buy cars for cash and keep them for at least 6 years, some longer. I want a peppy, luxurious, smaller car that I don't have to have repaired frequently once the warranty is gone(or before for that matter) and I like a nice handling car but I don't need one that I can zip around the cloverleafs at 70mph....50 is fine thank you.
So BMW can be #1 for some people but for many it is much farther down the list for a number of valid reasons. Nobody is arguing that it is not #1 in cutting corners. So to say a certain car is "loser" or always #2 is ridiculous as it is #1 to the thousands that buy it. And to also say that those same people cannot afford another few thousand dollars more is elitist to say the least and condescending at best.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The Japanese design their cars by numbers, start with a spec sheet and what comes out comes out and then looks great on paper.
Anyone who drives one as well as a German or American car can tell you, there's loads of difference in how they drive and feel - even when the numbers aren't that different.
Should have clarified that what I don't care for is the "price/value" element of the rankings. I'm OK with subjective rankings that would say steering feel is a 10 on a 911 and a 3 on a Buick. I just don't want to see the Buick ranked 1st after "price consideration".
Some of th magazines separate this adjustment out, so you can disregard it. Other's build it into their selection of a "winner" that I think is highly subjective and inaccurate at best, unethical at worst if they are vying for advertising dollars.
In any given price range, some put price above all other parameters. I'm not one of those. I want the best I can afford.
That said, I've discounted buying some cars which others consider to be "tops" in their class. Mercedes immediately to mind. They cost roughly the same amount as an Audi or a BMW. But, they fall way short on the things I value most (performance and driving dynamics).
I've tried hard to like Infinitis....over the course of many years. If, for no other reason, I could have saved myself a few bucks over what I end up buying. Even being less expensive than a 3 series or an Audi, they just don't appeal to me, for a variety of reasons.
Obviously, they appeal to plenty of people, just not to me.
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I agree, give me the facts about the car, price should not determine a winner. Let the buyer (me) determine if the added price should sway me to look at other cars.
So if your Looking at a group of cars that are Ellps- an one costs 15k more then the next your telling me that should nt be part of the comparison?
There is a reason the Camry and accord battle every year forks sold- they are so close in everthing - but if the accord was 10k more I guarantee you try would be a huge separation in sales.
Not everyone has a tesla on order
If car and driver picked the Honda Accord as a winner over the Genesis because they didn't think the extra features of the genesis were worth the added price, would flight's partner have changed his decision? It doesn't matter what they think those features are worth, it's what he thinks they are worth. Why insult somebody who has different value priorities by labeling their choice a "loser" based upon yours?
These mags are in business to make money. People buy and read them for their professional opinions good or bad. If you don't want opinions don't buy the mags or visit the websites and just download the specs from the manufacturers. Life is constant weighing of cost versus reward and the vast majority of people that read these comparisons, IMO, are looking for opinions on value among all the other things.
I guess you mean the cheapest by your comment without regard to which is a better car. The Camry is usually not the cheapest alternative in this class of cars and since it's still the biggest seller I guess the majority are NOT looking for the BEST deal in regards to price but also consider other factors. Just because someone earns less doesn't mean they don't care about what they drive and how it drives. They just have less choices.
Agreed, but how often does that happen? I'm truly not sure. I do know there are many comparisons where price is factored as a number in the tally. So an $80k car is 10 points and a $100k car is 8 points ... or something to that effect.
On of the big mags just did a whole series of comparisons of far less expensive cars vs the luxury counterparts and they came up with a value vs content equation. The results were mixed, with some cheaper cars coming out ahead and some expensive cars. Their calculation, however, seemed subjective to me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Wow- that means there are a lot of people making $150K anually, I would have never thought that most recent Grads made that much- at least at my job.
It seems that we're "arguing" (in the best sense of the word) over Infiniti being perpetually number two or Acura this or Hyundai that, 6-speed manual this vs 8-speed tip or step-troic that. I get the sense that the collective "we" -- the portion of the "we" that do not have BMWs -- avert our eyes and bow our heads and speak of Bimmers in hushed tones.
It seems to me that the collective "we" would have only BMWs if only they had Infiniti's (or some other brand's) super lease deals. So I got to thinking, "if" BMWs were actually priced to lease (or whatever form of financing you choose to use) for $199 or $299 or even $399 per month (in other words, equal to or less than the "price per" that everything else is -- in the class we go on about here) would there even be any market left for Acura's, Audi's, Infiniti's, and all the rest?
In other words, are we all (or almost all) frustrated BMW owners who "rationalize" not having them by using the code word "value?" Most of us who have the cars classed as ELLPS or even ELLPS-wanna be's (the Genesis, perhaps?) could afford any one of the cars herein discussed -- but choose not to go for the most expensive (assuming for a moment that means BMW) because they want to have that new home theater, children, Italian (or where ever) vacations or larger investment accounts.
Who actually speaks the words, "I settled for an X-place (anything less than 1st) car," assuming they did not get a BMW? Hmm, well, I would have rather had an A4, A6 or an Infiniti M than an Acura TL -- but I factored in "opportunity cost" (and in my case I'll call it monthly payment on a 36 month lease term). If the other cars on my short list had been offered at the same monthly lease payment, I probably would not have considered the TL.
But, hell, if I could get an Audi S8 for $541 a month for 36 months, that's the one I would go for (I might even "settle" for an S6, just because I perceive the S6 probably handles better.)
So, after reading nearly 250 posts in rapid fire progression, I have decided that "we" don't settle, we don't all "wish" we could have had a BMW; we just got something different because we do not think monolithically. Those who have BMWs have settled, perhaps, for higher payments or lower durability or quicker acceleration, better performance, higher or lower fuel economy, or whatever the facts support.
Those who settled for the [perhaps mythical] $199 per month for 18 months Infiniti G, got, um, more money in their investment accounts or in their money clips -- who knows.
I, for one, now have several friends or associates who have eschewed re-upping for another BMW in favor of a Genesis or Equus despite the Korean's inability to blow the doors off of an M5 or 7 seriese or S class. I wish there would be a place to see just how many "conquests" are made by a Genesis or Equus -- my friends experiences, even if their choices were significant data points, are pretty much just anecdotes.
I'm thinking, now that I have but 22 months to go on my lease, that I will get an S6, assuming they cost no more than $599 per month for 36 months. I won't settle for anything less!
Drive it like you live. :surprise:
I would have no problem in saying that. I go for value all the time. I almost never buy what I think is best in absolute terms. All I say in those situations: I know X is better, but it is by Y percent more expensive and I don't think is Y percent better. I even have no problem in admitting I would not have gotten my 328i, if Infiniti, Lexus, Audi or Acura had offered a vehicle passing three basic requirements: low sitting (no claddings, no "crossover", no SUV), rear hatch, and manual transmission. But they did not, so my choice was easy.
Now, the manual wagon is gone. There will be new 328 with automatic only. But I got mine now, so I'll worry when I need to.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The only issue I have with comparisons that include price, veteran car buyers tend to pay much less than MSRP. IIRC, I think I was almost $5K under MSRP on my '11 335i. But, I doubt very seriously one could buy a 2013 335i coupe (which is essentially identical to mine) for that price. Does that change the rankings? It should!
Mark....man, if you get an S6, I'm going to be very seriously jealous.
Me, too!
- Ray
Not in that market... sadly
I should lease two of them at that price and then re-lease the second one for double (which is probably what they really lease for anyway.)