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But....I would still contend that part of infiniti's problem is self inflicted. They themselves tried to compare the g35 to the 3 series in marketing materials. And by producing a coupe version that is essentially a refined 370z with a back seat, they were clearly hoping to win the comparison on performance and driving dynamics.
You can keep contending that they are a viable alternative for other reasons and attributes. I agree. But flight can also contend that, unlike the TL or Lexus ES, the G set itself up for and encouraged a more direct comparison to the 3 series on those attributes that fell short.
The G is what it is and people can and do buy it based ( hopefully) upon the actual attributes.
Actually at the BMW plant in Greenville SC they don't hire "lazy" people. Competition is high for jobs there and they have their choice of good people. I had a relative who worked there plus I know someone else who went through the hiring process.
So, Infiniti is left competing on price, instead......"almost" as good as a BMW, but at a lesser price. Nothing wrong with that. Ask any small business person how that works out. You must have very large quantity of scale to compete on price. Out of all the parameters any company wants to use as a competitive advantage, price would rank at the very bottom.
IMO the G has some attributes(MPG not being one, it sucks and another reason I did not buy) that are better than the 3 which I think (most) everyone can agree on ie. power, interior sophistication, low(long term) maint. and repairs. In other ways it is about equal ie resale value, dealer experience. The area where it and just about every Asian or American car falls short is in the suspension, steering gear and weight distribution which gives the BMW such a dynamic driving experience that hasn't been duplicated. But I also argue that the vast majority of people buying the 3 don't use, need or appreciate that driving dynamic as they lease their auto(like over 90% take rate) tranny "beemers" to impress. And that comment was not meant to insult the true enthusiasts that buy it for the drive and not the show. So if you take that factor away as a real draw then things equal out a bit more. The new ATS is apparently very close and maybe better in some respects from the reviews that I've read but it is too new to really even form an opinion on yet. Although I'm sure many BMW fanboys have pretty much written if off already.
Disagree. I won't repeat for the nth time some of the attributes of the G that can compete with the BMW besides just price but suffice to say that it has things that people look for in a ELLPS besides just price. I do agree that there is nothing wrong with being second best at a lesser price if you have a business model that makes a profit by doing it. Agreed that if ALL you are going to sell on is price than huge scale is necessary but as I've already said, I don't believe that is the case with Infiniti. Street prices for the G are much less than the 3 but so are just about every other comparable car out there. When you have the cache you can price high. That's capitalism.
Which is to be expected. After all, they don't call them "fanboys" for nothing.
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That said, I am not sure how you conclude that the G is "better" than the 3 with respect to power. In just about every road test I've seen, the 335i is anywhere from a couple to quite a few ticks faster than the G37 in a straight line. Here's one source if you go down to the Infiniti header and check out the comparison test with the TL SH-AWD, 335i and S4. If anyone has the upper hand on the 335i in measured performance it's Audi. But even I would argue that there are subjective things about the Audi I don't like - nose heavy, heavy heavy, AWD vs. RWD - all lead to a somewhat less nimble feeling than I prefer. Can't dispute the fact that they post great numbers, just don't like the subjective feel of how Audi gets there. I'd say the same thing about a Porsche 911 C4S vs. C2S.
TL vs. 335 vs. G37 vs. S4
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Or the books!
After a lifetime of mostly sensible shoes (including a dark period of company cars: Olds 88, Mercury Sable, Dodge Intrepid... None bad, none memorable for any outstanding qualities. Maybe the styling of the Intrepid, but not the build quality or quietness), I was looking for something special. Something you don't see coming and going. And that had more than just skin deep beauty. Got it.
Not mine, but similar:
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
These days I'm looking at Japanese and Korean cars for simplicity of ownership. I guess I can still sense which car was mine if I sold it, even with 1000s of Asian cars on the road.
Tesla is coming out with a nice looking EV. Worth being noticed by your EVPs.
Or are only "currently" sold vehicles allowed in here? :P
Quick indeed! Porsche borrowed that Audi feature, re-packaged it as an option, and now calls it "launch control" in their 911's equipped with their PDK transmission. Although for some reason it doesn't work in "Park" anymore, you actually have to be in "Drive".
Pretty amazing that Audi managed to stay afloat after all of the bad press and class action lawsuits. I had a business associate that bought an Audi 5000 just before the poop hit the fan and his pregnant wife demanded he sell the car less than six months later. Don't remember the exact figures, but he got less than half what he paid for it and it only had 3,000 miles on the odometer. Audi later sent him a $10,000 coupon to be able to use on a future purchase as a "sorry", but he let that expire and still hasn't been back to an Audi showroom since.
Humans will forever blame their equipment and their machinery for their own human mistakes and errors.
Early this year in the NFL a player went to spike the football right after catching a touchdown, and the football flew out of his hand so that he had an empty hand spike motion going on; what did he do? He looked at his gloves as if they were defective or going to be covered in baby oil. :P
That was Gronk - not exactly the sharpest knife in th drawer.
Here in Europe I believe the 5000 was badged as a 200 and was highly regarded, i.e. the 100's big brother. I don't recall any similar incidents over here, at the time or since, with Audi cars. I don't drive an Audi; never owned one as I believe they are over-priced VWs in pretty dresses. I much prefer my VWs dressed as Skodas for many reasons, not just price but also better build quality and dealerships. However, Audi have been building fine cars for a long time and, if you must have the badge and are prepared to part with the money, then why not ?
Interesting that Audi are a relative newcomer to the high-end market, (or any market), unlike Skoda who have been around for considerably longer and even survived the disaster that was East European Communism. The original Skoda Superb was a competitor for Rolls Royce et al in it's day. Try the Googly thing to see about it. The current Skoda Superb puts Audi to shame in the value department, (and quite a few others, also). But I doubt it's coming your way in the foreseeable future.............VAG aren't stupid.
Just my two penn'orth on a grey Friday in Middle England. Have a great weekend.
- Ray
Only experienced intended acceleration ...
[ and rather leisurely, at that ]
It was a business colleague who bought it. I remember the "unintended acceleration" snafu hit about 2 or 3 months after he bought it. Although, it was a good car for him, as he kept it for 7-8 years with no complaint, his resale was dismal, at best. He never went back to Audi, either.
I too, am surprised Audi survived in North America after that. But, they soldiered on. And now, I'm sure Cadillac would love to have the reputation Audi has right now.
Yeah, Robr2, Gronk. Big, dumb animal. Talented, though. Glad he is ours! Now, Tom just has to find him open more...
Thought: While Fisker Automotive may or may not live to see the future they are trying to help shape, Henrik Fisker can certainly design an attractive car. Lexus (Toyota) should consider hiring him as a consultant to inject some coherent and attractive style to their lineup. The "spindle" grille ranges from innocuous to ghastly, depending upon the model it adorns. And, the slab-sided styling of their models grows ever more bland. Imagine combining the reliability, luxury and (with the new GS) somewhat new found sportiness with the style of a Karma, BMW Z8 or Aston Martin DB9? (Please leave Ian Callum at Jag, I look forward to the Marque's continue comeback). IMHO, of course.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Yes indeed. Proves that Audi's "unintended acceleration" issue was easier to eventually overcome than than Cadillac's decades long issue of "unabated depreciation".
They continue to grow, advance, and head in the right direction moreso than other car manufacturers in my opinion.
I'd generally agree, except they have a severe weight problem. Partly because all of their performance models are AWD, but also because they appear to think weight isn't an issue. You know, the "big is beautiful" denial syndrome. The Q7 is a half ton more than the Porsche Cayenne and not as big inside as the 700 lb lighter MDX. An Audi TT is about the same weight as a Porsche Cayman - with a water buffalo sitting in the passenger seat. BMW's 5 series has bloated up as well, but the Audi A6 is heavier yet.
I think they need to add some calisthenic instructors to their engineering department.
A baby buffalo?
I see the TT only a couple hundred lbs over the Cayman; not too bad since its AWD and has a couple pretend seats for small children. 3153 lbs isn't that bad.
It is when it is attached to a their below entry level 211 hp engine. The fair comparisons are:
Cayman S (320 hp) @ 2,976 lbs vs. TTS Coupe (265 hp) @ 3,219 lbs = +243 lbs; -55 hp
Boxster S (315 hp) @ 2,910 lbs vs. TTS Roadster (265 hp) @3,394 lbs = +484 lbs; -50 hp
911S Coupe (400hp) @ 3,075 lbs vs. TT RS Coupe (360 hp) @3,306 lbs = +231 lbs; -40 hp
Porsche is redesigning the Cayman S along the lines of the new Boxster, so its weight is anticipated to drop another 80-100 lbs for 2013.
Again, my point isn't that Audi doesn't make some great cars. They absolutely do. I particularly like the S5 and A7/S7. But the added weight (and AWD) makes Audi's so-called sports cars and sport sedans feel much less nimble than I would prefer. They get decent straight line performance, but, as Clint Eastwood might say, they have "trouble with the curves". At least in imparting the same kind of nimble feel and driving pleasure.
Considering that my 1995 5 passenger Nissan Maxima SE tipped the scales at 3,001 lbs, I'd really like to see similar sized offerings by Audi and BMW try to stay in the 3,500 lb range. That gives them an extra 500 lbs for more safety equipment, stronger frame and chassis (although my Maxima was as solid at 150k miles as it was new), and techno do-dads. But 4,000 lbs for a mid size sedan is just too much, IMO. Hell, Porsche has now got their Cayenne down to under 4,400 lbs; surely they can lend a weight reduction engineer to Audi for a few weeks.
TTS Coupe: $48K-53K
Cayman S: $62K-80K
911 Carrera S: $100K
Apples and oranges. Complaining about extra 200-300 pounds on car that is 20K+ cheaper is simply not fair. For extra 20-50 grand anybody can throw in extra engineering and lightweight materials and horsepower. And even mighty Porsche couldn't lightend its Carrera 4 (AWD) version - 3150 to 3197 lb, making it below 200 lb differential against Audi at 50 grand more.
Audi should be compared to similarly priced vehicles to comparison make sense. Weight is money, for hundred grand I sure would expect a sports coupe to be 300 lbs. lighter. Just like if one pays 100 grand for a luxury sedan, they should expect stuff, they would not find in a 30 thousand family "fully loaded" sedan.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
On the other hand, I agree that ALL car manufacturers need to put their vehicles on a diet; it has gotten out of hand. At least BMW, AUDI, and Porsche try and make an effort, can't say the same for everyone.
On the plus side, my A3 is much quieter than a Mazda 3 regarding road noise (sound dampening) and the Mazda feels tinny and thin in comparison (particularly the sheet metal seemed dent prone). I would take the Audi in a crash or accident any day, so their are some advantages to the heft, but I would like to see cars get lighter in general.
I feel compelled to point out that you're wrong: Nordschleife Lap Times
As you can see scrolling down, the Audi TT RS Coupe is 8:09 and the (old) Cayman R was 8:06. But even more impressive is the new 2013 Boxster S, which has come in at 7:58. With the weight reduction and chassis improvements, I expect the new Cayman being somewhere between that time and the 7:37 posted by the new Carrera S. My bet would be 7:48 for the Cayman S.
But I don't need to go to Germany with a racing helmet to form my personal opinion. Even with moderately vigorous test drives, I have felt the weight and bulk of Audi's. For a big luxury sedan like the A8, not a problem. For an A6, a little more so, for the S5, it didn't feel as nimble as a 335is or M3. The TT S (I haven't driven the RS), was not as rewarding to drive as my old S2000, let alone a Boxster S or Cayman. It has a great looking interior and probably is the most comfortable with cruise control on at 75 mph on the highway, but that's not the top of my priority list for a sports car. BTW, I am even more critical of the BMW Z4. The make a great diesel SUV, as my garage can attest. But not a very compelling so-called sports car.
I understand Audi has elected to go with AWD as their preferred performance drivetrain. It certainly beats FWD to death. But it adds weight and takes away the nimbleness of RWD when you get into the sport sedan, coupe and sports car categories, IMO. I'd make the same claim relative to Porsche. Give me a GT3 over a 911 Turbo any day. Or if you are feeling really generous, a GT2.
P.S. Price vs. Weight. Yes, I agree with a previous post that Porsche has a few more engineering dollars to spend to squeeze out more weight. The point I am making is that right now, Audi doesn't seem to think that weight is a problem, period. That's an attitude issue, not a cost one.
When creature comforts started taking over cars, they will get heavier. back up camera's, Nav system, Infiniti adjustment power seats, quieter highway cruising.) Also look at the safety equipment that cars have to have, air bags, safety glass etc..
Of course car companies can build the extra light weight sport car with no thrills Honda S2000, Cayman R (2855lbs) or how about the Honda/Acrua NSX (2975lbs) Porsche knew what lightweight was in 73-74 when they built the 911 RS 2175 lbs (this was the SL (superlight) weight)...
The question do car companies want to build them? BMW had the The BMW M3 CSL (Coupé Sport Leichtbau) weight 3050lbs (light for BMWs) I'm sure BMW could have shaved off an extra 200lbs from the car, but elected not to. Wouldn't be nice to be able to buy a BMW 3M coupe, at 2800 lbs, making 330hp, or better yet, just a 3 series sedan or coupe CSL...
I had originally responded to another post suggesting that Audi is in the engineering leadership position. I agreed that, while they make some very nice cars, they could use a dose of attitude adjustment and make weight loss a higher priority. Across the board. That doesn't mean I think they should shoot to compete with 1970's vintage sports cars. But almost every vehicle they have now competes for the title of "heaviest in the segment". The Q7 was by several hundred pounds the heaviest SUV we considered - even though it has a smaller interior than the MDX. That excessive weight made it feel slow and ponderous handling compared to the X5d, Cayenne and even their sister Toaureg (which is no lightweight either). Lost sale relative to us, given that it is otherwise a fine vehicle.
We can take up on another sports car board whether Audi has been too pig-headish on maintaining AWD as their only drivetrain on their TTS, S4/S5 and other performance models. But you will never get a TT anything to feel as tight, sharp and visceral as my old S2000 with the extra weight of a water buffalo in the passenger seat. Maybe a juvenile buffalo, but a buffalo all the same.
Just look at tires. My first car had 13" and even 16"s were large throughout the 90s. Now the the standard is about 17" with 18"s pretty common as well. Can't tell me that these larger wheels and tires don't add significantly to the weight.
1995 Maxima SE 5-speed manual: 3,001 lbs with 3.0 6 cylinder engine. Length 187.7 inches; width 69.3 inches.
2013 BMW 328i 6-speed manual: 3,360 lbs with 2.0 4 cylinder engine. Length 182.5 inches; width 71.3 inches. AWD/Automatic: 3,595 lbs.
2013 Audi A4 FWD CVT: 3,509 lbs with 2.0 4 cylinder engine. Length 185.1 inches; width 72.2 inches. Quatro: 3,616 lbs.
Wheels and tires have gone from 15" 215 series on Maxima to 17" 225-245 series on Audi/BMW. In fairness, the Maxima has gone up to 3,551 lbs, and is now 190.6 inches long and 73.2 inches wide. That's A6/535i size, both of which are pushing 4,000 lbs. Also, in spite of the greater exterior width of the A4 and 328 compared to the older Maxima, the interior width (shoulder/hip) is almost identical. Much of the exterior width difference is in flared fenders and design elements.
I don't think we should go backwards in structural rigidity and crash worthiness. But I have to question how much that accounts for the significant weight increases since the mid 1990's. You can have very light safety cages that can withstand tremendous stresses, as Formula One proves.
Oh well, I'm up about 10% in body weight since buying my 1995 Maxima. I'll get that down to 5% before I complain on this subject again. Hopefully, before Thanksgiving.
I think I remember reading somewhere that the reinforced cages added weight significantly (new materials notwithstanding, or maybe because of their higher costs?); in particular, new requirements on the roof strength in case of rollover raised the center of mass and changed the vehicle balance and handling, which in turn was one of the reasons to mandate the electronic stability control. FWIW. I don't know about you, but I would take an active safety over passive any day. I am concerned much more about the capacity of the car to outmaneuver and avoid an accident than about it saving my a** when the accident happens.
You are right about tires, but maybe the difference is less than it appears from the rim diameters. The overall wheel diameter is probably not much more that it used to be. In the past, high-aspect passenger tires were the norm, while now low-profile (such as 45-50) tires are ubiquitous even in the "family" sedan category.
Audi has labored and fought hard to be equated with "quattro" just as a famous cola manufacturer has fought hard to be called Coke; or as hard as a tissue manufacturer has fought to be called Kleenex.
If Audi reverted to FWD instead of AWD several things would happen and not many of them would be good (at least from both marketing and performance perspectives). And there is no way I [at least] could ever imagine Audi marketing RWD cars -- any more than Coke wants any cola product to be called coke (with a little "c").
Audi would also probably point to near premium, premium, and super premium (and exotics, too) cars that are all-wheels-driven vehicles.
Several of the world's greatest automakers save AWD for their highest performing models. Perhaps AWD is in Porsche's blood what with Audi, VW and Porsche all being related. Perhaps Lamborghini too has AWD in its blood due to Lamborghini's relationship with Audi. The same for Bentley.
Audi would probably argue that AWD is their performance vehicles' "secret" [not really secret, of course] weapon or sauce as the analogy might go.
I love the use of the phrase "pig-headish" -- and assume it was meant to be ironic or at least be a double entendre since Audis are "front end" (or head end, as opposed to butt end) heavy.
I just don't see Audi doing anything else than continuing to embrace AWD -- especially for its highest performing cars. :shades:
That will get the blood boiling with a lot of Porsche enthusiasts that are far more knowledgeable and much more proficient sports car drivers than me. I've been casually shopping for a replacement for my 911 C2S that I sold 18 months ago. In the process, I've attended a Porsche track event and test driven several cars, new and used. The conversations I've had with Porsche employees, enthusiasts, and professional drivers has been pretty educational.
Bottom line, very few serious Porsche enthusiasts consider the 911 Turbo (AWD) to be the pinnacle of the 911 line. They put the GT3 RS4.0 on top, GT3 next followed by GT2. Some would put the new 991 C2S ahead of the 997 Turbo. They like naturally aspirated engines and RWD. The GT2 is the RWD answer to the Turbo S, and is fast as hell, but not preferred by them over the GT3.
The AWD 911 Turbo and various "4" cars were, as explained to me, partly based off the fact that the 911 RWD has a front/rear weight balance of roughly 37/63 and some buyers liked having another 150+/- lbs over the front wheels and some extra grip. That was usually followed by a thinly veiled "amateur" adjective to further describe that type of buyer. But not the preference of the serious enthusiasts, it seems. As a matter of fact, I have heard from several that they have acquired 993 Turbos (last of the air cooled engines) and actually disconnected the front drive train to make them RWD.
The Cayman and Boxster will never be AWD. They are already perfectly balanced and light.
My pig headed comment was probably unfair. Audi has built quite a reputation on Quatro. But remember, they started out as FWD, which is the worst of all worlds, so AWD was really a necessity if they didn't want to fire all of their engineers and start over. A RWD TT RS is probably not in the works, and the fact that the heavier AWD TT RS has none of the feel and sharpness of a Cayman S or R is probably not important to the typical Audi customer. But it would be to a Porsche enthusiast.
Not really, I had to relive one of the most scariest moments of my driving life. My father and I bought a 73 911RS, needed work, after getting the car fixed and driving it for a couple of months, I took it to San Diego Stadium (where the San Diego Chargers play) SCCA has been having auto cross there for about 30 years, this is where I learned NOT to apply brakes or take your foot off the gas too quickly.. Spinning a 911 is not fun....
The weight of the 13" steel wheel and the weight of the aluminum 18" can't be that far off..
Road & Track has some figures that don't take into account curves, corners, and turns, but are useful for the Audi owner pulling up alongside the Porsche owner at a stoplight who revs their engine up to see who can get to the next stoplight fastest :P
0-60 MPH (Ahhh, yes, AWD works wonders): Cayman R 4.4 TTRS 4.0 (That's smoked)
Quarter Mile: 12.8 for the Cayman R, 12.6 for the TT RS (That's closer, and for the $20K+ difference in price it should be).
Also, when they reviewed the TTRS in January's issue, I can't find it, but I remember them beating their very own Cayman R's time around the track (don't remember which track they use).
But if your giving them away as Christmas presents this year, I won't reject either in my driveway come 12/25/12. Thank you. :P
The last guy to track a Camaro at an Audi Club event had a busted leaking transmission (auto) and tow truck trip to bother Hertz for (of course, the track tow truck was nice enough to tow him a mile off the track onto public roads so Hertz wouldn't be any the wiser. :P
1. Boy, it got bigger. Not elephant yet, but it's basically equivalent to 5-series from two generations ago.
2. The engine is quick. The car is faster than mine, noticeably - but I still like engine sound on mine. Just can't replace the six cylinders. Transmission - well, if I can't have a manual anymore, this automatic is doing really fine job, especially on sports mode.
3. The start/stop feature is not such a satan's work, as some people want you to believe. Did not disturb me. Once you know it's there and you're prepared, it's fine.
4. Steering is a disaster, especially low speeds/parking lot. The car feels like Buick and that's NOT a good thing. Highway speed (it's variable) is probably not as bad, but at low speeds the
car definitely lost its sportiness.
5. The seats are terrible. I have sports seats on mine and this loaner has standard seats. They are bulkier and seem a bit more solid than previous generation (it seems to be common complaint that 3-series seats go out of shape too quickly), but the thigh support is just atrocious. 20 minutes and it already hurt. Yes, I'm a heavy guy and even my sports seats get to me, but it takes them 300-400 miles before they do. This is probably single disqualifier to me. I hope they have sports seats option, for their sake.
6. They eventually fixed the cupholders. Funny, we all make fun of the cupholder obsession, but I get in with my morning coffee and look for the old style holder (you know, that POS plastic thingy springing from the front trim) and it's not there. Getting quickly upset, then after a few seconds I realized they would not market one without cup holders, so it must be there - sure enough, the holders were covered with a neat plastic cover in front of the shifter. And boy, why it took them four generations to figure out the right place and size is beyond me.
7. They kept most of the switches and knobs in same locations, so it was easy to find. However, some switches and iDrive have different feel on clicks - the clicks feel "harder", more plastickey, including iDrive. I think I like my old one better. Also radio switch was odd, I can turn it off by pressing, but to turn it on, I have to dial (in effect increase the volume) and couldn't get back to my previous volume level with one press. Really odd - don't know if I missed something, or if this is on purpose.
8. Overall dashboard look is just like mine - boring, unispiring and seems like they again have a 1 to 50 ratio of manhours for development of mechanical features vs. interior. The dials are as boring as mine, same with trim. Yes, it is all put together well, but they need to hire couple of Italian designers. I generally like simple, but there is simple/elegant and simple/basic. I think 3-series is the latter in many places.
2018 430i Gran Coupe