Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy · January 2013

I'll be at the ny auto show as well- need to check out the new Infiniti- prob get mine ordered while I'm there . They have a tasty 5 guys near there - we can meet up.

On the BMW 320 - if it's over 40k it's official BMW has jumped the shark. Why not just get a tsx wagon and call it a day.

sweendogy · January 2013

I'll be at the ny auto show as well- need to check out the new Infiniti- prob get mine ordered while I'm there . They have a tasty 5 guys near there - we can meet up. I'm going on the Sunday.

On the BMW 320 wagon-iif it's over 40k it's official BMW has jumped the shark. Why not just get a tsx wagon and call it a day.

dino001 · January 2013

The wagon will still be sold as 328i, I believe. I may be wrong about that, though.

dino001 · January 2013

I looked closer and it seems it's getting stranger by a minute. 320i uses 2 liter turbo with 180 hp @5000 rpm. 328i uses same 2 liter turbo with 240 hp @5000-6000 rpm. That's 70 hp from same displacement. The spec page shows torque of 184 lb-ft (320) vs. 255 lb-ft (328) as similar revolution range. Those are big differences. Acceleration 0-60 is 7.1 sec vs. 5.8 sec, but I bet it looks completely different for 50-80 mph, which is much better measure of driving experience (European magazines test this), basically showing passing ability and strength against wind resistance.

So unless the gas mileage gain is trully significant, I see this trim failing miserably. I suspect they introduced it only to get better CAFE and to justify even more price hikes on 328 and 335.

robr2 · January 2013

320i uses 2 liter turbo with 180 hp 5000 rpm. 328i uses same 2 liter turbo with 240 hp 5000-6000 rpm

Same engine, different tuning.

I suspect they introduced it only to get better CAFE and to justify even more price hikes on 328 and 335.

I think they are introducing this trim in order to increase the selling/leasing price of the 328 and to increase unit sales for bragging rights.

One can lease the 328i today at $369. Let's say the 320i leases at $349. Then it gives BMW the room to move the 328i to $399 a month while still offering the frugal buyers the 320i for $50 a month less.

dino001 · January 2013

I know, it is the tuning. But it seems to me, such move will be justifiable, if fuel economy gains are substantial. So far, they are "TBD".

I'not a lease buyer (not that I'm against them, just never found one I liked, as wagons don't have same level of subsidy as sedans), so I can't comment if $50 per month is ther right level. Leases can be done at almost any payment level, what counts for me is the sticker and street price. Loaded 320i at 45 grand, almost as much as my E90 328 was, is jumping the shark.

robr2 · January 2013

Loaded 320i at 45 grand, almost as much as my E90 328 was, is jumping the shark.

If you tick any boxes on any BMW, the prices become ridiculous. $50K + for a 335? Ridiculous IMHO.

nyccarguy · January 2013

Tick a fair share of option boxes & a 335 quickly approaches the mid - upper $50K price tag.

sweendogy · January 2013

Yeah it's official - it's jumped the shark- BMW 3 series no longer Ellps -hosts please remove it from the right hand column and add another acura.

Lets throw another low lease deal to say affordable to the leasing mass- throw us some "free" wiper blades and a couple of oil changes. Sure its underpowered and has pleather seats, its a bmw. I've been saying it for years bmw makes great drivers cars but they are not cheap- sure they might be the enthusiast choice but for 9/10ths you can save 20% and get a comp car with better technology and more hp. so are you really getting a better car ?

nyccarguy · January 2013

Buying out my E90 at the end of it's lease seem like a better & better idea;)

scwmcan · January 2013

Partly it is lack of competition, and partly it is because they are some of the best cars in their classes for fuel economy, and I think I am responding even though your comments are probably for Dino. I am a diesel supporter and think the market has been suppressed, I think that if there were more offerings we would probably have around 20-25% of the market being diesel, therefor the current 2% is unrepresentative.

habitat1 · January 2013

sure they might be the enthusiast choice but for 9/10ths you can save 20% and get a comp car with better technology and more hp. so are you really getting a better car ?

That's the "better" question that should really have a "for you" attatched to the end, since everyone has their own priorities and preferences. I could cancel my 2014 Cayman S order and get 40% more horsepower for $20k less in a new Corvette. Does that make it "better"? Not for me. The Corvette design, albeit improved, still looks like it has to many legacy Pontiac designers trying to get their two cents into it. And I don't need to spend anything for a car that I don't like to look at.

You are an Infiniti G guy - I would have liked to join your camp back in 2004, having had a great 150k experience with my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE. But I was disappointed in the lack of refinement in the Infiniti G35 sedan vs. the TL 6-speed. I had to make the tough compromise of going with a FWD car, but given that it was/has been a daily driver and we have a second home in the snow belt, I accepted the trade off. I certainly respect those that go the other way, and the G37S 6-speed is a damn nice car, but is still just a perplexing notch away from the engine and transmission refinement that I think Infiniti is capable of.

Also, let's not forget that Japanese horses are a bit more of the Shetland style than Germany's Clydesdales. The former 335i (haven't driven the new one with a stick), was still the quickest ELLPS on the market, in spite of a 30+/- rated horsepower disadvantage to Infiniti. And as quick as the 450hp/450 ft.lb Corvette is likely to be, I still doubt it will significantly outrun the 911S in spite of a 50hp/125ft lb advantage on paper.

dino001 · January 2013

Sween, I'm afraid the competition will keep up (in terms of pricing). Everything is getting more expensive. Loaded Ford Focus is getting close to 30 grand on the sticker, same goes for many other compacts, loaded Accord crosses 30 grand in a snap, Lexus raised the sticker for its hatchback hybrid by three grand or so without clear increase in its content (don't know too much about this vehicle to say, but saw a headline), so why wouldn't BMW want to charge 40+ grand for its detuned entry level 3-series with couple of options? I bet Infinity will soon come up dreadful with G25 replacement, which will be opportunity to "reset" pricing for it and G37. Even Acura with its traditional value approach, made a move down, but mostly by rebadging and redressing Civic, which I would hardly call an attractive ELLPS. However, ILX is an opportunity to move prices on next TSX up (provided they will they keep the car, I sure hope so).

Everything is getting more expensive. We all have to deal with it. Price limits set 10 years ago no longer apply.

dino001 · January 2013

Told you so year ago, didn't I?

habitat1 · January 2013

$63k for a 414hp 8,400 rpm M3 coupe is beginning to look like real bargain.

flightnurse · January 2013

Sween, I'm afraid the competition will keep up (in terms of pricing). Everything is getting more expensive. Loaded Ford Focus is getting close to 30 grand on the sticker

Bingo.... Mark my words, Dinan will have a reflash for the 320i, and it will keep the factory warranty. So a 320i for less then 40K and have the same performance as a 328i, is a good thing.

The new Wagon, will be an excellent value, with the diesel engine.

habitat1 · January 2013

Flight,

You conveniently avoided my previous post with an excerpt from Dinan's own website that forewarned that, essentially, there is no free lunch and "reflashing" will result in greater engine stress and wear. Go back to my previous post for the direct quote or read through their homepage.

And Dinan's willingness to match BMW's 4/50 engine warranty is not much consolation when modern engines should easily last 150k+ miles. Hell, I could probably do fine over the next month or two having a 5 hour energy drink for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But I don't think that would be a wise long term solution to just eating right and getting exercise.

I don't know the percentage of daily driving 3-series buyers that go to their local Dinan store for a pick me up to try to turn their 328's into 335's and their 335's into M3's. But my guess is the percentage can be counted using less than the fingers on one hand - and a thumb isn't a finger. I do know that the resale value of an everyday BMW that has had the "reflash" or other engine modifications is significantly reduced. And I suspect that it's not permitted in a lease. It certainly will never qualify for a BMW CPO warranty.

So the idea of reflashing a 320 might be an option for you and a handful of your buddies, but that's really not comparing factory apples to factory apples for 96%+ of the market. Maybe 99%.

stickguy · January 2013

I was checking out the website at the local BMW dealer recently. Some nice 2010s (maybe 11s also?) and the service loaners looked like a particularly good deal.

I really want one. Someday. I guess 6 years from now when I might be able to buy myself another car, I may be able to afford a 2010!

I had such a great plan. Get me wife the 2007 X3 I found for a good price, then get me a slightly used 328 for every day duty, and something cheaper for my daughter. Would have been the same price in total of what we ended up getting (3 cars), but I would not be stuck with the cheap old one!

she just got hung up on having to have a brand new car.

andys120 · January 2013

Stickguy, I resisted the siren call of BMWs for most of my adult life because new ones always seem just a bit too expensive. I passed up on the 2002s, 320is and the wonderful E90s until one fine day I stopped in at a BMW reseller near my office and priced second-hand E39s.

I ended up getting a 4 y/o 2000 328ia for about half the original MSRP. I've put 100,000 miles on it in the eight years since and it still looks and runs great. That strategy was so successful that I decided last winter to get a 2001 330Ci Cabrio to serve as my winter ride while I'm in Arizona for the cold months. This particular car had just under 80K on it and cost about what a new Focus would. It has given me no problems at all thus far.

BMWs have a pretty steep depreciation curve. Why not take advantage of the fact that so many of them are leased (with strict limits on yearly mileage)
and grab a lightly used one.

Buying used is the best way to enjoy Bimmers IMO.

flightnurse · January 2013

Simple you have the money to spread around multi dealership trying to decided what you want to buy, we all get that. There are people who can not, so that is why turner companies are out there and have done very well. Dinan works with BMW, anytime Dinan does any work, whether it is stage 1 suspension kit or supercharger kit, the VIN # is sent to BMW. The failure rate for Dinan engine work is very low, about the same as BMW themselves. So having an Dinan or just go to your local BMW dealer and buy a B7 from ALPINA. Turners today are the what they were 20 years ago, I would only work with turners who have a working relationship with the manufacture, i.e Dinan.

So I understand you don't like tuners, that is fine, others do. There are many guys on Bimmerfest who would tell something else, I just love watching the videos they post of 335i's playing with 911S on the freeway and the 911 guys doesn't get it... A couple of guys have 90K on their 335i that are making 440hp RWHP they have been from day one of ownership (original owners.) havn't had any major engine problems.

sweendogy · January 2013

Funny but a loaded ford focus could have a boatload more tech then a 180 hp BMW- and also be cheaper and very close in performance -

Shark has been jumped -

habitat1 · January 2013

I didn't disagree that Dinan is one of the best, most reputable tuners around. And they can be a relatively good bang for the buck in performance. I simply restated what they stated on their website: asking more out of a smaller engine will besult in more engine wear. So my take is that somebody that is very performance minded, goes to the track on occasion or regularly and doesn't care about shaving some life off the second 100,000 miles on the engine, the Dinan option is a viable one. But for those that are counting on the car being a daily driver for 8-10 years and do not want to take the risk of Dian's admittedly increased engine wear, might think twice.

I have a friend who took his 996 Turbo to over 600hp/650 ft lbs at the wheels through a Porsche approved tuner as well. The car has been timed at under 10 seconds in the quarter mile, putting him a few tenths and a couple million dollars ahead of a Bugatti Veyron, so yes, I understand the economics. I just still don't see you acknowledging the increased engine wear factor - whether or not that is of importance to you, it will be to many.

stickguy · January 2013

oh, if I get one, it for sure will be used.

nyccarguy · January 2013

You had to say "I told you so?" :P

nyccarguy · January 2013

You probably could have sold your wife on that used X3, if she didn't test drive her RDX.

I've never bought used before (for a daily driver/primary car), but if my next ride is a BMW (whether I buy out my lease at the end or buy a lower mileage E90), I'm going to dip into the used market.

I LOVE my 328xi! It is truly a fantastic car that suits my needs perfectly.

kyfdx · January 2013

If I buy a coupe, I can go as late as 2012 on a BMW, and still get the straight six.... So.... buy one of those in 2016 and drive it for six years... that gets me to 64 yrs old...

So, I'm not worried about the 4-cyl turbos.....

fedlawman · January 2013

That's the way to look at it!

Sad though...the public doesn't care, but the I-6 will be missed by enthusiasts forever. Just like the 993 is the last great Porsche 911, someday the E90/92 will be considered the last great 3 series.

habitat1 · January 2013

Sad though...the public doesn't care, but the I-6 will be missed by enthusiasts forever. Just like the 993 is the last great Porsche 911, someday the E90/92 will be considered the last great 3 series.

You sound a bit like the BMW track instructors I met when I picked up our X5d at the Performance Delivery Center in Spartanburg. They are not looking forward to the new M3, twin/triple/quadruple turbo 6, more power and better mpg notwithstanding. There is something about the visceral feel of an 8,400 rpm naturally aspirated V8 that they don't want to see lost. They view the M5 similarly.

Like the fans said when Johnny Damon left Boston for New York. No beard, no hair, no soul. Still a great ballplayer, but not the same.

stickguy · January 2013

I might have had her on the X3, but she really wanted new and the one we saw had some scratches on the interior console or some such. Nitpicking, but she really wanted brand new. She also noted that it had about the same miles as her Odyssey, so what was the point? The point of course was I could get a slightly used 3 series too, but that was not for her!

and if I get used in the next few years, it would be a 6 cyl. especially from what I have read about the start/stop feature.

graphicguy · January 2013

kyfdx....I've got a cherry '11 335 ix Coupe with the Performance Pack. It has your name written all over it, if you can wait 18 months-2 years.

Fact is, looking at the reports from the various car shows, there's not one thing I'd want (well maybe the '14 'vette, or the BMW 4 series) instead of the vehicles already in my garage.

Even the newer models coming out leave me cold. Infiniti needs a big shot of refinement. Cadillac needs to dump their CUE system. I'll hold judgement on Acura until they unveil the new TLX).

flightnurse · January 2013

Funny but a loaded ford focus could have a boatload more tech then a 180 hp BMW- and also be cheaper and very close in performance -

A VW GTi makes less HP then the Focus, yet is faster...

The Fouse ST is an interesting car, however, it is slow for making 252hp. The same thing can be said about the Mazdaspeed 3.

flightnurse · January 2013

I simply restated what they stated on their website: asking more out of a smaller engine will besult in more engine wear. So my take is that somebody that is very performance minded, goes to the track on occasion or regularly and doesn't care about shaving some life off the second 100,000 miles on the engine, the Dinan option is a viable one. But for those that are counting on the car being a daily driver for 8-10 years and do not want to take the risk of Dian's admittedly increased engine wear, might think twice.

I was one point shy of earning my DINAN badge with my 330, not one problem did I have with the car, I wasn't the easiest on it, whether on the track or street, granted I didn't have 100K miles on it but it was 7 years old. The engines today that are build as turbos wont self-destruct like engines 20 years ago.

There is always a risk when added more boost to an engine than what the manufacture had planned. This is why people need to reframe from increasing the boost too high, there is a fine line between power and reliability.

sweendogy · January 2013

Flight did you do any research on the answer, come on guy.

http://m.autoblog.com/2012/11/20/2013-ford-focus-st-vs-2012-volkswagen-gti-compa- rison-review/

albion729 · January 2013

I would have to pick the acura over the other cars. I currently drive an 11 Genesis sedan but, also own a 2000 Acura 3.2 tl. I bought the Acura new in 2000 and currently have 235k on the odometer. This vehicle has been strictly maintained by the Acura dealer and still runs as well as the day I bought it. I have had no major issues with the car. I have all the necessary services performed and the oil changed every 5k miles. Only downside to the Acura is that it run on premium fuel. Other than that, it is a very good car. This car is still quick and will outrun and outperform a lot of cars. Resale value is also very good on Acura's.

sweendogy · January 2013

Your responding to a post from aug 2011, wonder if that cat has decided yet?

stickguy · January 2013

I have a 2000 3.2TL also, but with "only" 167K on it. and like you, always dealer maintained, and nothing major (knock wood), just stuff like an alternator. Still runs very well.

oh, and it has always been run just fine on mid-grade. Did not like regular, but no difference between mid and premium that we could ever tell.

cdnpinhead · January 2013

. . . wonder if that cat has decided yet?

Well, here's the thing: in the post I stated that I'd bought an Acura TSX and was pretty pleased with it. Still am. Wow; "cat?" Were you alive and well in the '50s? I was, but I'm an old fart; didn't think you were.

Today we drove our Pathfinder down from Forest Lakes, and it performed flawlessly, as always. It's a truck, and its truck engine is not to be slighted. We've got nearly 130K miles on it, and it's running strong. However, putting this engine in a "sport sedan" is questionable, IMNHO.

My TSX is going to hit 70K very shortly -- has needed almost nothing and runs very well.

Sometimes those old posts were made by people who still monitor Edmunds regularly -- not often, but it does happen.

sweendogy · January 2013

Was not a seed yet in the 50s- and good to hear the old TsX is holding up well- Honda does make good cars, most people who I'm related to all have Hondas and they seem to be very happy with them- my wife's crv has been very good as well.

If that "cats" still waiting a year and a half to decide what car to get- his TL has just rolled 300k miles.

flightnurse · January 2013

Opps, I was wrong,

sweendogy · January 2013

Yep not the first time - understand the BMW love but let's be real, one time. Love opinions but have to be fact based- leasing numbers, o-60 times, pricing, transmission talk - it's black and white. Can't wait to meet you at the 5 guys near Jacob Jarvis march 29th.

billyperksii · January 2013

Hey- I might join you guys, is the 29th the last day of the show?
I usually wait for the last day which is the Sunday.

flightnurse · January 2013

Sweeny there is more to a car than 0-60 and if you want to talk about leases, BMW has one of the highest resale value. What is funny, many people here including yourself posted how the ATS V6 was faster than the 335i, which all car mag have disproved. The thing that makes a BMW a BMW is how all the parts work together, just as they do in a Porsche. In many GM cars, including the ATS and C6 Vette, there is some disconnect.

Infiniti has to hit a home run with this new Q50...

IN regards to meeting, I haven't set my dates yet, this should happen in a week or two.

sweendogy · January 2013

Will touch on a couple of PTs here- Q50 we have no idea if this car is good at all because it has yet to be driven- infact the specs have not been formed - is it going to have a 4 cyl at some pt. performance numbers and pricing?

Can't argue that BMW and Porsche knows where to put the pieces. Great cars.

On the Ats comment above- this is where you get into trouble with being factual. ( You can search yourself) I did a search for me talking about the ATS- and have never said what you quote. I understand you want to be right and have passion for cars- but again use facts not imagination when commenting . It throws people off and is distracting .

Car show should be fun- 5 guys - I'm buying

nyccarguy · January 2013

I go every year on Easter Sunday. Get there at 10:00 AM when the doors open. By the time I'm ready to leave @ 12:30 - 1:00, it starts to get super crowded.

markcincinnati · January 2013

Well I would agree that there are no test reports pertaining to the Q50 -- or if there are, I can't find them or don't have the time to look.

But I thought the specs were revealed. I know that I printed out the current G dimensions (wheel base, overall length and width, etc.) Also somewhere there is a discussion of the two engines the thing will offer on day one -- including HP and torque.

My admittedly fuzzy recollection: Q50, same wheelbase as G37; Q50, 2" wider than G, Q50 about 2" longer than Q. Same 7 speed transmission in the Q50 as was in the G37 -- and that is the only transmission offered. Same 3.7L engine in the Q50 as was/is in the G; the hybrid uses a 3.5L engine -- similar to the set up in the M37 and the M hybrid.

Q50 can be had in both engine variants with AWD.

Now, insofar as the full run down of specs (like can be found about the G37), I have not been able to find a source for these specs pertaining to the Q50.

Overall, the new Q50 will be longer and wider and probably "feel" like a major size upgrade over the G37's.

I assume the Q50 will be a slightly smaller, more agile, quicker version of the M37 -- or a slightly larger, more agile, quicker version of the G37.

I am looking forward to driving one -- hopefully the sport package includes beefier springs, struts/shocks, anti-sway bars and brakes, in addition to sport seats and a steering wheel with paddle shifters.

I see no big deal in the dropping of a manual transmission. The up take on manual transmission versions was probably less than 3 or 4% in any case. My assumption is Infiniti let the stick shifts go due to market apathy.

I would expect a small price increase -- real, but not huge (not yet anyway.)

dino001 · January 2013

Q50 is bigger than G, 50 seems also quite a high number (by their own new naming strategy, it is about half way between 10 and 99). I'd bet there is a model below this one, (Q30?) coming (smaller size, engine would give them better fuel economy credits and some ability to capture market segment below current G). If so, Q50 may be priced much higher than you think. Everything is going up. If 320 can be priced at 45 grand (with options), who knows where this can go.

flightnurse · January 2013

Dinio I would agree that the Q50 is going to be higher in price, and that a smaller car will be placed under the Q50. Something like 1 series or A3. Now in regards to pricing of the 320i, a fully loaded 320i is $46K, Nav is a stand- alone option on the car, I would guess that most people would go for a 320i with Premium package, and Nav, which is 40K. But you can get a 320i well equipped for under 40K,

flightnurse · January 2013

According to Infiniti's web page, the drive-train of the Q50 is a carry over, so performance should be able the same, maybe a little faster or a little slower.

Many people stated that the ATS was going to be a faster car because it made more HP in both turbo and V6 models, however, all the mag's have shown that the BMW turbo 4 and turbo 6 are faster.

The Germans know how to put a car together, they feel that all parts work together, this is the problem with other cars makers, maybe with the exception of the Italian high end cars. I hope the Q50 is a great car, competition is good for everybody and only makes things better in the long run. Yes, prices are going up and ALL cars. It will be interesting to see what the top of line Q50 will go for with all the technology they plan for it.

markcincinnati · January 2013

Priced MUCH HIGHER?

I would think if, to use made up but approximate numbers, that an Audi A4 or BMW 3 (something) can be "nicely contented," which I suspect means, these days, Premium Package, Premium Paint (and Infiniti doesn't, currently, charge for any color they offer), Nav Package, and Sport Package or Technology Package (but not both) for something between $45K and $49K -- depending on the "either or" packages and metallic paint, bla bla bla, that Infiniti would be -- even with this new presumably sexy Q50 -- hard pressed to come in at parity with the Germans.

I mean, really, my last A4 (a 2009) was $49K -- for $49K I'm going to stick with the German car. I wouldn't pay $49K for the G (or the new Q -- at least not until it is vetted by you all here on Edmunds and the motoring press, etc.)

I would think the Q50 will have to be very nicely equipped (meaning all the bells and whistles Infiniti can offer -- but not the hybrid version) and a few grand less to win, to conquer the pro German buyers.

I leased my current Acura TL SH-AWD Advance ONLY because it was much less than a 2012 A4 comparably equipped and a hell of a lot less than an S4 which the TL somewhat "imitiates."

I'll scope out a new A4, BMW and probably C class. Then I will do my best "objective" comparison with and without a consideration of price.

If the Q50 turns out to be BMW-like and is hundreds less per month in payments or thousands less in MSRP (and/or street price) and is either contented at or greater than the BMW, I'll very probably give the Q50 serious consideration.

If the Q50 is close to the "cost" of the German rivals -- with even somewhat close content, the German is with very high certainty going to be the chosen one.

I could be wrong -- but, not uncertain, of course -- and perhaps the new ex-Audi alum, Infiniti CEO will want to pump up the Q50's MSRP to achieve parity with the German "B" segment from the get-go.

My logic, hopefully not specious, is that the Infiniti Q50 no matter how much it is called the Japanese BMW will not be able to command BMW prices until such time -- if ever -- that people start calling the BMW, "the German Infiniti."

:surprise: DOH!

Homer

dino001 · January 2013

I'm still struggling to get over those new prices. I mentioned that already, but 320i sedan, if comparably equipped, would be priced HIGHER than my E91 328 wagon, with couple of (small) things even missing. Basically, 60 hp or so less, less metal, cheaper interior, pay the same. I dread the day pricing of new 328i wagon will be released (I assume it will be 328, not 320). I suspect it will start in low 40s shooting to something like 55 grand after putting same equipment, as my current one.

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