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2018 430i Gran Coupe
I have an '05 TL, very similar car to yours. Fortunately for me, at 130K I've had very few problems.
I also have found the BMWs underwhelming on test drives. Like you, I really like a nice interior and that's not BMW.
I could suggest you check out Audi A4 or Mercedes C-class. Those cars are still taut and handle well, but would have the nicer interior that you may be looking for.
Good luck!
I'd look very seriously at the new TLs, particularly the SH AWD versions. They are super handlers and good performers. Plus, they still have some of the best tech in the industry.
The Infiniti G37x is really a particular "buy" right now because the new version will hit dealers in August. So, they're blowing them out.
Lots of good deals on really nice cars right now.
Why put yourself through that agony? We like to welcome new members, not torture them.
So... welcome!
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Remember, you were young & foolish back then.
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Seems like that comment (mentioned about 2 decades ago) really took a toll on you- you are always posting it.
Lets make this forum productive- more fact less smack.
Mercedes C-Class C300 4MATIC
- I really like this car. It looks refined outside and elegant inside. The ride is composed though it feels heavy and a tad slow (vs. my TL. The C300 has 248hp + AWD vs. my TL 258hp, that maybe why)
Infiniti G37x:
- I like the G37 design but it's dated. Not much change even since the G35. And overall, I find the "G" styling works much better with the coupe than the sedan. Interior is decent, nothing wow but overall good impression.
- Man, this car is fast. 328hr really works here. However, like many have said before, the engine is not refined.
- So my overall impression with the G37s is so so... I think Infiniti know it so they throw in an outstanding lease deal right now.
So at this point, I'm kind of leaning toward the C300
Then the next morning, I took my TL out for an oil change. While waiting, I saw a Cadillac dealer right across the street. I hate Cadillac "Art & science" design language, to the point I think I'd feel embarrassed driving one. But I've been seeing and hearing enough about the new ATS that I decided to give it a try.
Cadillac ATS 2.0T
- First off, I think the ATS looks the best among the current Cadillacs (the new CTS looks very good too when I saw it at the NY Auto Show but it's not current yet). It looks sporty and smart. The LED arch looks better in real life than on TV. The interior looks pretty nice too with attention to details. Some negatives: the dashboard stitching is a good attempt but looks fake. The high gloss center control looks cheap. And the silver buttons line up "Transformer" style looks kiddy. I thought only ATS suffers from this layout (perhaps the designer tried too hard to make it look young) but surprised to find the same button line up and layout in the CTS. Too bad, without these negatives, the ATS cabin could be one of the nicest in its class.
- The drive: Awesome. Wow, this is the first time that I feel the "fun to drive" that people have been talking about. It feels light and fast, yet composed and firm. The only car to this point that I want to keep on driving during the test drive.
- After the initial excitement, I went home and did some research about the ATS, owner's review. It looks like the CUE still has a lot of problems and gas mileage is far below what Cadillac claimed. It's kind of expected for a car in its 1st year of its 1st gen.
- So I think the ATS is a great car but not a car for now.
Now, the remaining candidates are BMW 328i xdrive and MB C300 4MATIC. Then wife said: BMW. So BMW it will be!
I fear that this forum would die of shock if we started introducing fact at this point.
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2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
If you've driven all four of these cars and still prefer the Lexus, then you are their target demographic. Go for it.
in this group, I will say that driving them all is key.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Gotta agree with stickguy here. All are fine cars. But, if you are looking for that isolated feel of an ES350, you'll probably be disappointed in the others you're looking at. Nothing wrong with that. It's all personal preference.
I think the ES was either new for this year, or last year at the earliest.
What are your priorities in what your looking for? Those might help with your decision making. And, it might help us understand which way to steer you.
If you are interested in feel of luxury at a great price, quite and smooth ride, especially on long trips, don't really care (or can't even understand what we are talking about) about handling, ES is absolutely perfect. I'm not mocking you or anybody else who doesn't care about handling. I know a lot of people like that and I don't think of them any less. They sit in Crown Vic or Taurus and don't miss what I would, makes them happier and that's fine. They're happy with engine pull. Again - not mocking anyone, just stating the fact.
ES350 will have all luxuries (and possibly more) that you want and money still in the wallet left, great corporate reliability, plenty of clever stuff inside. I was impressed when I saw some features in my coworker' s. It's a fine car, just not for me. I like sharper steering (new BMW is already too dull for me, I like the previous models more) that RWD or AWD can offer, don't mind to pay for it with bit more road noise. I like manual transmissions, if I can have one, I'd gladly pay for it. Some ATs are really good, too, I just take MT as long as I can - just me. I can't say much about G37, other than it was developed to chase 335 buyer with lower price point or 328 buyer with same/similar price point but better performance. It is a bit "old tech" today, but it may be a good thing. BMW and MB need to improve gas mileage, so they go with these 4-cylinder turbos, G37 stays true to high output naturally aspirated V6 that is not very frugal, but is a rocket. They can afford it, as I believe, their mpg is averaged with parent Nissan (I don't know for sure, but why else wouldn't they come with similar engines already?). I would call it most "old school ELLPS" of the bunch.
If I needed one today and could afford it, 335 is best FOR ME, but I have no problem with somebody saying ES350 is better FOR THEM. I can even see why and acknowledge those as valid reasons. Bottom line - it's trully matter of priorities.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
So far have only driven lexus, so I still need to drive others to see what I like personally. What I wanted to get here was experiences from others.
My Priorities :
- Luxury
- smooth and quiet driving
- least maintenance cost
- good mpg
- roomy (would like the back seat as wide as possible for 3 to fit comfortable. Have two car seat and still have the middle person have enough room).
- I really do not know more about handling besides the smooth and quiet I mentioned above.
- value for money
- long term (like go 200K or more without issues)
- brand name
Any other car that fits the criteria above besides the one I have listed?
Maintenance costs are going to be a bit high. Have a neighbor who has two "Lexi". He is contstantly complaining about how high maintenance is, even for routine maintenance. Then again, someone has to pay for those oppulent showrooms.
Any of these vehicles will go for 200K miles. As you're aware, strict maitenance is key, however.
Value for money....hmmmm....looking at that and low maintenance desires, smooth ride, big back seat, have you looked at one of Hyundai's premium cars? The Equs or Genesis? They have great warranties. My son had an Elantra and it was uber cheap to maintain. And, it lasted him a good long while.
If it were me and I had the same buying criteria that you have, I would go with either the Lexus or the Acura.
I live in norcal with no weather/snow issues.
I think you are looking in the wrong class (size wise) of cars. Any of these will fit 2 car seats in the back, but fit a 3rd person comfortably in the back with the 2 car seats? I don't think so. Are we talking high back booster seats or 5 point harness seats that need to be LATCHed in?
Have you looked at the Toyota Avalon? It is a bigger car than the ES, I think :confuse: It should get you the same comfortable ride you are looking for & that LEGENDARY Toyota reliability :P
One way to reduce your maintenance costs on a Toyota or Lexus would be to pay attention when you take the car in. Don't just drop it off to the Service Advisor & say, "the light is on, it needs service." Usually unless it is something major, the car will most likely require a simple oil change when the light comes on.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
This forum is populated mostly by people who have quite a bit different priorities than yours. There is nothing wrong with your priorities. Somebody here mentioned Buick, which could be another good fit for you, based on your self-description. It is probably a fine car and I would not mind renting one on an business trip to some metropolitan area, or a family trip with my parents in the back seat. However, I'd definitely not buy one, even at a steep discount and would beg a rental counter guy for something different if I went on same trip alone, especially if it involved twisty hilly/mountain roads. Different strokes for different folks. Seem to me that ES is car for you, or LaCrosse/Avalon, if you want to save money. If you bought 3-series you'll likely feel ripped off, because the things it has are the ones you seem to care least about.
On the other note, please notice that you came to ELLPS forum, but it seems your preferences are strongly into ELLS, "P" being omitted. Buick, Lexus or Avalon have all good strong engines and good straight line accelerations, but that's not enough to be "P". It's the control and responsiveness aspect, usually a result of a trade with size and comfort. So if you go back into the discussion and see so many people loving 3-series, just know that they don't love it because it is roomy, quiet, or comfortable. It is none of these things in comparison with mentioned Buick or Lexus.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I agree with others that you should consider the Buick Lacrosse and Toyota Avalon. I would also add the Hyundai Genesis to the list.
The Lexus I believe is a bit roomier than the others. Not sure if big enough. Avalon, probably a fine choice, if you can live with the plebeian badge!
Getting into a MB E class or a BMW 5 series is going to really up the ante.
the Buick, could be a fine option. If you want domestic, a Chrysler 300? Hey, if you are going big, go REAl big!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
To respond to stickguy :
I think you are right that infiniti and 3 series might not have exactly what I am looking for, but I will still go test drive them.
Do not really want to go with Avalon. Want a little higher brand name like Lexus.
Cannot afford the E class or 5 series. Would have loved them.
I really appreciate all the feedback from all of you. Very good points and educational.
Many of the important items you'll get with any of the cars you've listed. As some others have pointed out I think the back seat may pose the biggest challenge. I think the ES or even the A4 might serve best in this area. Since low maintenance cost over 200k miles is important, personally I'd flunk the German brands out. On both my ES and RX, I just did routine services over both vehicles with each exceeding 150k miles, so my experience with Lexus regarding low cost maintenance was great. However BMW and Audi with Audi care provide free scheduled maintenance over 50k miles. However over 200k I'd expect service to cost more on these models.
Your quiet and smooth to drive speaks Lexus as well. My wife complains my BMW is a harsh ride since I have a sport package and low profile tires. Speaking of the BMW, I have a 335. This car and the 328 are very different vehicles to drive, so drive them both to experience the difference. Both are much more focused on sporty vs. luxury.
Based on what you've listed, I actually think the Lexus RX would get you everything you want but the mileage since its an SUV....and no longer a performance luxury sedan, however I wouldn't consider the ES (which the RX is based off of) one either.
In a nutshell, BMW compared to Lexus is much more fun to drive than ride in. Vice versa for the Lexus.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I love this line, and people wonder why Lexus has done so well, they took the reliability of Toyota and added more luxury and charge 10-15K more for the same car and people run to the dealership in droves...
The new Avalon sounds like the car you are looking, but doesn't have the higher price tag...
But, it does sound like you have your heart set on the ES. Not a bad choice for what you want.
Good luck in your search and let us know what you chose.
It is a very smug thing to say, especially the way you expressed it. It is not "the same car". There is no Toyota version of IS, GS or LS sedans. Yes, ES and SUVs from Lexus have their Toyota's counterparts, but again, it's not fair to say they are "same cars, just charged 10K more". I read, or heard somewhere that even chassis are significantly different in terms of fabrication (e.g. significantly more welds). I suspect the difference between same-platform Toyota and Lexus is no less than say between Audi A3/A4 and VW GTI/Passat. Actually, I think 3-series and 5-series are much more similar than Avalon and ES. They share a lot of components, both inside and out, yet nobody would even think of saying "people run to dealerships and buy same 3-series for 10 grand more". It is simply unfair and demeaning to say something like that. There is a lot of dumb people around, but making such statement is to simply say every Lexus buyer must be a stooge, because he/she could get same thing for 10 grand less. I disagree.
I'm not a nameplate guy myself, so I don't really support the LexusBuyer's sentiment. I would be more than happy to switch back to a Hyundai if a particular model met all my equipment and driving experience criteria and did not feel like I have to explain it to anybody. I bought what I bought because all other similar vehicles (Audi A4 wagon, Subaru Legacy GT Wagon, etc.) were discontinued by the manufacturers and before they were, they didn't even have manual transmissions anyway. I like the nameplate (everybody does), but for the right amount of money, I would easily let it go and keep the change. However, I would never say that Lexus/Infiniti/Audi buyer does not get additional benefit over Toyota/Nissan/VW buyer - and it is not just espresso machine in the dealership. There are tangible differences between those. It is matter for discussion if they are worth the premium charged, but just to say that people pay 10 grand for (presumably) nothing is wrong.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The prestige badge does matter to me, but up to a certain price.
Dino the whole conversation has been about the ES, not the IS or GS or LS has it? Which started off as a tart up Camry and continued until the last generation.
So if you want a Lexus, go buy one... If you want a bigger car with more rear room, buy a Avalon and save yourself roughly 2K, since the Lexus dealer doesn't normally make deals on their cars
BTW, the last generation ES was a tart up Camry which was 10-15K less then a ES.
How big was this third person? A small child, or a very small frame adult?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Dino, give me examples of these tangible differences? Other than the fact that the decorations of the dealerships are different.
Well, apples to apples? Top of the line Camry was just about entry for ES, except perhaps Nav, which I'm not sure if it was standard on ES then. TOL Camry was/is over 30K, ES was starting at mid 30s. I think apples-to-apples, the "brand" difference, if you will, was more like 5 grand, no more. And that bought you a few things, from superior upholstery, to better frame fabrication, to some more clever features standard on ES and not even available on Camry. It's not just that ES interior looked better, it had more good stuff in it. My coworker has one so I can see how much good stuff it had. Not sure if Camry did, even at TOL.
What would likely increase the price difference is amount of discount you could get on Camry vs. ES then. It's probably similar on Avalon/ES today, but I don't know that for sure, as this is part of the market unknown to me.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Now, my statement was it wrong, or was it the "attitude" behind that pushed people the wrong way?